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Thread: How would Se-valuing types typically feel about living in a post-scarcity, utopian society

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    Default How would Se-valuing types typically feel about living in a post-scarcity, utopian society

    …where all of your basic material needs are met unconditionally and you’re free to dedicate as much time as you want to any personal projects or hobbies that you have. Ignoring whether it’s feasible or not, would you feel stifled/bored by the lack of forced struggle/competition and opportunities to flex/flaunt your status or nah?

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    While I don't feel good about my answer, I don't think I would enjoy such a world at all. I definitely don't wish misfortune on anyone, but a perfect world sounds very depressing, and I would be scared to live in one. After reading Walden II I found myself taking some solace in the idea that utopias are impossible. I hated everything about that book lol

    I think if we ever got to that point I'd want to leave Earth for an outer colony somewhere far from all that oppressively perfect sameness. I think the inner quadras are very much built for struggle (albeit Betas and Gammas are geared for very different kinds of struggle and would probably dislike each other's worlds)

    EDIT: I suspect myself and fellow IxIs would have the easiest time living in such a world though due to our tendency towards inactivity. SxEs would probably be the most bothered by things being too perfect
    Last edited by AWellArmedCat; 11-29-2021 at 05:45 AM. Reason: Additional thought
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    This pretty much sums it up.



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    Probably would suck more for workaholic Te doms, especially one's who aren't creative enough to start their own thing, or socially skilled enough to get people to work with them by choice. For Se, if I want to compete, I'll just turn whatever I'm doing into a competition. Survival mindset will only get you so far, and material and status are accessories at best. Usually just fill holes for people who can't figure out what's actually fulfilling to them.

    I think this would give a ton of busybodies and high strung people the free time to police public spaces or whisper in city council's ear to tear down the skatepark, basketball court, dancehall or whatever. I think that kind of undercutting is what would stifle Se.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    First of all, Se-valuing covers whole of Beta and Gamma, so a lot of different types. Maybe it is possible to generalize but it can be challenging.

    Second, Se as struggle / competition is a simplified view of Se. There are other uses for Se than struggle/competition. Se is basically sensing the object side of reality. Experiencing / expanding.

    You could consider narrowing down your question a little.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

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    I'd find it nice, I'd be able to devote my time to try and start some serial "businesses" (doesn't have to be for profit - just bringing people together to do stuff) and competitive sports.
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    My post-scarcity, utopian society was high school. I had all the food and shelter I needed and didn't have to work for the basics.

    What I did was to research astronomy and optics and mechanics. Basically, anything that interested me. I got jobs in areas which interested me (library, machine shop, optics shop) and worked for money to buy things above and beyond the basic necessities. I made a 12" mirror (ground the mirror myself) for a Schmidt telescope and bought a Bridgeport milling machine to play with. I also made a gas furnace that I used to make castings in my back yard. I built a spectrograph because I was interested in chemical signatures in space.

    I met a lot of people and joined clubs and ran track for exercise and bought a bike because I loved the way a fast bike made me feel. I didn't buy a car because I didn't need one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    My post-scarcity, utopian society was high school. I had all the food and shelter I needed and didn't have to work for the basics.

    What I did was to research astronomy and optics and mechanics. Basically, anything that interested me. I got jobs in areas which interested me (library, machine shop, optics shop) and worked for money to buy things above and beyond the basic necessities. I made a 12" mirror (ground the mirror myself) for a Schmidt telescope and bought a Bridgeport milling machine to play with. I also made a gas furnace that I used to make castings in my back yard. I built a spectrograph because I was interested in chemical signatures in space.

    I met a lot of people and joined clubs and ran track for exercise and bought a bike because I loved the way a fast bike made me feel. I didn't buy a car because I didn't need one.
    I'm not a Se-valuer as far as I know, but I agree with what your getting at.

    Se doesn't seem like it needs to exist in some kind of competitive battleground to thrive, necessarily, rather that what goals or impulses they chase are going to be adjusted to a 'perfect' environment.
    Might be me sounding idealistic, too, but I imagine a utopia being a society that actually meets the needs of *all* of its citizens, and not just one ideology's of what is best for everyone.

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    Many things would vanish without struggle. There are relationships and feelings you could only acquire on the verge of life and death. Also alot of "meaning of life" would no longer exist.

    But. Video games can give you as much struggle as you want lol. That's why they exist.

    And I think our human's nature is to overcome struggles. They make us suffer, but without them many of us may no longer have a reason to live.
    Last edited by Tarnished; 11-30-2021 at 08:42 AM.

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    I think I would love it, being able to do and enjoy whatever you want and whenever you want, sounds like a dream!

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    challenging your self in terms of understanding difficult concepts or something requiring skill. fight at places designated for that, go run urself to death. people who exist to make others and their own lfie miserable to feel like they are overcoming a challenge cant have what they want without dragging the whole world into their misery. people dont like to challenge themselves to do the right thing in the first place. an utopia by default implicitly means everything's how everyone wants it to be.
    there would prolly still be competition for the people who want it, no? why no trophies and other shit they can get for participating. i dont see why those things wont be able to be there. status just wont be based on someone else writhing in misery and losing the good and meaningful things in their life.
    Last edited by VewyScawwyNawcissist; 11-30-2021 at 10:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist View Post
    challenging your self in terms of understanding difficult concepts or something requiring skill. fight at places designated for that, go run urself to death. people who exist to make others and their own lfie miserable to feel like they are overcoming a challenge cant have what they want without dragging the whole world into their misery. people dont like to challenge themselves to do the right thing in the first place. an utopia by default implicitly means everything's how everyone wants it to be.
    there would prolly still be competition for the people who want it, no? why no trophies and other shit they can get for participating. i dont see why those things wont be able to be there. status just wont be based on someone else writhing in misery and losing the good and meaningful things in their life.
    Some sci-fi high tech virtual reality could make a world like that come truth? Everyone has their own version of the world and can connect with other's world if they want. And maybe you can remove all your memories to trick yourself into thinking your fake world is real lol.
    Last edited by Tarnished; 11-30-2021 at 05:03 PM.

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    This feels like it's pretty much already a reality for people who marry rich guys that take care of them. Or the very rich in general. My therapist said once I should meet a sugar daddy so I could make my art all day lol. I have a big heart and I could give the other person love if they give me money. Relationships are always a transactional agreement anyway. But realistically I'm too afraid to do this and idk if it's good advice anyway cuz that therapist was in my conflicting quadra? lol. And I don't even really like the idea of being another Johnathon Levinson that gets cruelly killed by Andrew- I want and deserve to receive love too.

    Think what it would be like to be higher class and not middle class. I know everybody who posts on this forum is pretty much middle class- I could be wrong but I highly doubt a very rich person would hang out with losers and misfits like us HAHAHAHAHHA. Anyway you don't have to worry about a lot of stuff cuz u can just pay ppl to do that- and so you have the time to really create and dream, -plus it opens up the window for all this efficiency. This is pretty much already a reality for lots of ppl- but only if ur really rich or at least upper middle I think. Middle class is dying anyway- it's been dying for years- until there's only gonna be the Haves and the Have Nots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shazaam View Post
    This feels like it's pretty much already a reality for people who marry rich guys that take care of them. Or the very rich in general. My therapist said once I should meet a sugar daddy so I could make my art all day lol. I have a big heart and I could give the other person love if they give me money. Relationships are always a transactional agreement anyway. But realistically I'm too afraid to do this and idk if it's good advice anyway cuz that therapist was in my conflicting quadra? lol. And I don't even really like the idea of being another Johnathon Levinson that gets cruelly killed by Andrew- I want and deserve to receive love too.

    Think what it would be like to be higher class and not middle class. I know everybody who posts on this forum is pretty much middle class- I could be wrong but I highly doubt a very rich person would hang out with losers and misfits like us HAHAHAHAHHA. Anyway you don't have to worry about a lot of stuff cuz u can just pay ppl to do that- and so you have the time to really create and dream, -plus it opens up the window for all this efficiency. This is pretty much already a reality for lots of ppl- but only if ur really rich or at least upper middle I think. Middle class is dying anyway- it's been dying for years- until there's only gonna be the Haves and the Have Nots.
    Corporations are killing the middle class bud, through our Governments by influencing policy. Also the green movement is very clear, the middle class consumes to much and austerity is the only way forward.

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    ✊ A Rebel With A Cause Lady Lunacik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Averroes View Post
    …where all of your basic material needs are met unconditionally and you’re free to dedicate as much time as you want to any personal projects or hobbies that you have. Ignoring whether it’s feasible or not, would you feel stifled/bored by the lack of forced struggle/competition and opportunities to flex/flaunt your status or nah?
    This postulate that there would be a lack of “force” under these circumstances reflects a misunderstanding people have about the nature of Se. Se doesn't necessarily go for challenges and such for the status flexing/flaunting, nor self-preservation. There may not be *forced* struggle/competition, but that's just it: Se *is* force...one that is independent of circumstances forcing you forward.
    ESI-Se ✰ ISFP
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    (I think this is a defective system that fails to capture who/how I am for the most part, though. I relate to NONE of the driving motives/defense mechanisms behind any type.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Corporations are killing the middle class bud, through our Governments by influencing policy. Also the green movement is very clear, the middle class consumes to much and austerity is the only way forward.
    @timber, @Shazaam, I think of the problem of the disappearing middle class in different terms.

    Historically, the middle class is an anomaly. It grows in times when societies expand and shrinks when the societies contract.

    In the 1920's to the 1960's, the US was in expansion mode from the benefits of the industrial revolution and from its position as a world economic leader.

    Now that the pollution these innovations caused is starting to catch up with us in terms of damaged eco-systems which require massive, costly cleanups (this includes the very air we breath) and the fact that all the easy inventions have been invented and the population of the earth rose to exceed, as it always does, the available resources, the average person is due to get poorer.

    When a society gets poorer, there is a rush to fence off your borders, rather than try to expand them. You see this in the immigration policies of the conservative party, and you see it in the patent corrals of the high tech companies. They are building legal barriers to entry and to competition, rather than trying to find new markets to expand their businesses.

    So as society grows poorer, the rich and powerful fight among themselves for a bigger slice of a shrinking pie. And since they are rich and powerful and because they make the rules, the poor and powerless get poorer. Fast.

    That's it. That's all there is.

    If you want to expand the middle class, invent a free and pollutionless source of power. That would do it. Or it would do in for the next 400 years, when merely the waste heat from the expanded economic activities starts to boil the planet.

    The short term solution to a decline in (# of resources)/(# of people) = (individual wealth), is to either get more (# of resources) or reduce the (# of people).

    At least, that's how it has always played out in the past.

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    @Adam Strange

    For me its kinda deeper and more philosophical cuz of my 4D Ni. You are probably much better with the practical solutions which is good but to me its like, we often think there's a middle ground/happy medium with things but in reality it's often just win or lose, hot or cold- one or the other and if you can't get that you're fucked. So the very concept of 'middle class' had shaky foundations to begin with. When you play the Game of Thrones lol...

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    I immediately thought I'd live a pseudo Si life of going out, partying, drinking and eating everything and enjoying the company of others a lot more freely. Kind of like a massive extroverted hippy who appears everywhere. Then I imagined starting up some kind of national league of some kind and getting involved in that just to get the blood pumping and a bit of excitement, rewarding people greatly for winning... But then I wondered if that idea goes against the idea of a 'utopia' if I'm still actively creating competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    Many things would vanish without struggle. There are relationships and feelings you could only acquire on the verge of life and death. Also alot of "meaning of life" would no longer exist.

    But. Video games can give you as much struggle as you want lol. That's why they exist.

    And I think our human's nature is to overcome struggles. They make us suffer, but without them many of us may no longer have a reason to live.
    Video games were apparently the reason why I still stuck to campaigns.
    "I know everything but anything that I don't know."

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    The OP sounds like a communist utopia. It has been tried before and thrice has been failed once. My SEE daughter both gifts and demands, and there's nothing of the 'Fe' fair play for everyone with her.

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    Blow it up, just for fun.

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