Quadra and ideology

[LadAhmed]

What I understood from this reddit post
https://www.reddit.com/r/Socionics/c...otomy_what_is/

Imagine types when they have an opinion some other people don't agree with or they want people to do something?

Ni/Se types will avoid expressing their opinion on the matter, and rather use some sort of "power" to change the other person's mind or avoid the whole situation

while Ne/Si types will express their opinion openly because their intuition is extroverted (objective), and tend to think that there are correct ideas and are open to debate in them

do you agree with that?

[Toro]

I won't go through all of the post, since it's so long. But no, I don't agree with a lot of this post. Although I understand the poster's view and how they got there. I'll start with the beginning of the post.

INTUITION:
Central types value Ni over Ne while peripheral types value Ne over Ni.
Because Ni is valued, central types are tolerant of personal beliefs as long as they remain hidden. Intuition is introverted for them so it's important that the "mind", ideas, and anything that falls into intuition's domain remains something personal. However Ne is unvalued so they are not tolerant of expression of personal beliefs. I have my belief and you have yours and there's no point in changing it, end of discussion. Instead non-conforming, subjective beliefs are only used as a strategy to get ahead in life, to form a vision (Ni).
Because Ne is valued, peripheral types are tolerant of expression of different views. Intuition is extraverted for them so it's important that the "mind", ideas and anything that falls into intuition's domain remains something publicly shown. However Ni is unvalued so they are intolerant of keeping one's personal belief. For peripheral types, you're not allowed to have "personal beliefs", you believe whatever is true. That way any different belief must be shared right now so that we debate each other or figure out some way to figure out who is right.

Ni doesn't reject expression of personal beliefs, because it doesn't reject at all. Rejection requires a rational process, Ni is irrational. Valuing Ni doesn't mean you aren't tolerant of other people's beliefs.

Ne is not intolerant of keeping one's personal beliefs for the same reasons.

However, I will say that this sounds like a dichotomy in socionics called 'Yeilding' and 'Obstinate'.

Yielding types

1. Resources are 'sacred', but ideas are freely shared and manipulated.
2. Easily aware of the boundaries between their and others' interests.
3. Protect their resources to the point of conflict, and their reaction may be unduly strong.
4. “If I know I can't do something, I won't and will forget all about it.”

Obstinate types

1. Ideas are 'sacred', but resources are freely shared and manipulated.
2. Easily aware of the boundaries between their and others' resources.
3. Guard their interests from intrusions, and their reaction to such intrusions may be quite sharp.
4. “I won't abandon my interests just because my resources are inadequate, but simply work towards improving my resources until they ARE adequate.”

https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Yielding_and_obstinate

• Yielding types are SEI, ILE, IEI, SLE, ESI, LIE, EII, LSE
• Obstinate types are LII, ESE, LSI, EIE, ILI, SEE, SLI, IEE

[LadAhmed]

I won't go through all of the post, since it's so long. But no, I don't agree with a lot of this post. Although I understand the poster's view and how they got there. I'll start with the beginning of the post.



Ni doesn't reject expression of personal beliefs, because it doesn't reject at all. Rejection requires a rational process, Ni is irrational. Valuing Ni doesn't mean you aren't tolerant of other people's beliefs.

Ne is not intolerant of keeping one's personal beliefs for the same reasons.

However, I will say that this sounds like a dichotomy in socionics called 'Yeilding' and 'Obstinate'.




https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Yielding_and_obstinate

Oh, I'm still new to socionics but thanks for the information

[CR400AF]

Ni doesn't reject expression of personal beliefs, because it doesn't reject at all. Rejection requires a rational process, Ni is irrational. Valuing Ni doesn't mean you aren't tolerant of other people's beliefs.

Ne is not intolerant of keeping one's personal beliefs for the same reasons.

Good point! That's an important definition that many typologists forget.

[CR400AF]

Ni/Se types will avoid expressing their opinion on the matter, and rather use some sort of "power" to change the other person's mind or avoid the whole situation

while Ne/Si types will express their opinion openly because their intuition is extroverted (objective), and tend to think that there are correct ideas and are open to debate in them

do you agree with that?

No. That's a typical misinterpretation of Jung's ideas, commonly seen in MBTIers and Model G fans. At first, Toro pointed out that this author forgets the fundamental definition of rational/irrational. I am going to make some further comments.

In Jung's context, E/I is not directly related to the normal meaning of subjective/objective. Extraversion means object-orienting, while Introversion means relationship-orienting. It has nothing to do with whether something is personal or not.

For example, this sentence from the original post:

However Ni is unvalued so they are intolerant of keeping one's personal belief. For peripheral types, you're not allowed to have "personal beliefs", you believe whatever is true.

violates both the definition of E/I and the definition of j/p.

Another example:

Because Se is valued in centrals, a person's actions must be publicly visible and universal.

So that author understands extraversion as something "publicly visible". This is not the Jungian definition of extraversiion, but the Eysenckian one. From this perspective, I personally type MBTI, Model G and Big Five as Eysenckian theories instead of Jungian ones.

For more comments on the E/I definition you could look at my earlier post: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-vs-Socionics)

[AWellArmedCat]

I'm not sure if it's related to the perceiving functions like that, but anecdotally, I'm similar. I wouldn't say I use a sort of "power" to change people's minds though, unless you're talking about buttering people up or offering subtle bribes (cause I do those sorts of things). I tend to keep my opinions to myself though, and only feel comfortable expressing them around a very few people who I'm pretty sure will already be open to hearing them. I really dislike arguing with people. In an online setting it's easier for me to argue though. I don't feel quite as much pressure to conform when I've got some level of anonymity (though I still feel some pressure for sure)

[VagrantFarce]

I think this is written by someone who is an Alpha type, and thus it is tainted by that perspective.

I don't fully agree with the idea of Ti being "natural truth" and Te being "constructed truth" - that Te is somehow unnatural or belief-driven. Perhaps when combined with Ne (Delta Quadra) it seems that way, but with Se (Gamma Quadra) it strikes me as deeply empirical and sceptical. Gamma types can be a real splash of cold water - a hard reset to reality when understanding becomes stale or outdated. Alpha & Beta types, in my experience, are far too eager to categorise up-front, and can find it difficult to let go of presumed understanding - in the case of Beta, sometimes actively resisting new evidence.

I agree that Te *communication* can lack the specificity of a Ti-valuing type, perhaps...I think the articles are correct that a Ti-valuing type prefers communication that is directly reflective of that individual, whereas Te-valuing types prefer to keep communication of their own feelings or nature obfuscated. To that end, Te types can seem like they are purposefully obfuscating things, are manipulative or perhaps lack a proper understanding. The same dynamic can be seen between Fe & Fi types, where Fe can seem "fake" to an Fi type.

Similarly, I think you can only describe Ti as "natural" truth if you were also valuing Si/Ne. With Ni/Se, it's more of an *imposed* "truth".

[Eliza Thomason]

...

Imagine types when they have an opinion some other people don't agree with or they want people to do something?

Ni/Se types will avoid expressing their opinion on the matter, and rather use some sort of "power" to change the other person's mind or avoid the whole situation

while Ne/Si types will express their opinion openly because their intuition is extroverted (objective), and tend to think that there are correct ideas and are open to debate in them

do you agree with that?

This is exactly accurate of my NE (Si valuing) view and the Ni/Se veiw is what I have seen in those types consistently, including my SLE-Ti son. So it looks spot-on to me. Though I have not read the article, only Toro's summary of it.