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Thread: Gammas and limerence

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    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    You Sp people scared away all the Sx firsts and none is posting about their limerence experiences :/
    I thought I was rather respectful In my post. I by no means want to scare them away. By all means speak! It might lead to the refining of my views and good conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    I am doubtlessly Sx first, btw. Believe me, I wished I wasn't and tried not to be for years. Sx first doesn't mean diving head first into something psychologically unhealthy. I'm not sure why you refuse to listen to people saying it isn't healthy...
    Is that you in the picture?

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    Okay, I will give some material (I was hesitant but here it goes) for all the viewers this thread has (it has at the moment 1000 views and it doesn't contain anything worthwhile; I guess there are a lot of shy gammas than want to read or post their experience and are hesitant, or they were scared away):

    My two most important experiences with limerence:

    1) It happened with an ESI-Fi girl. This was years ago in a college setting. I noticed that she was in love with me with my one time when I went to tell her something (I saw it in her eyes, and her behavior-- she avoided looking me in the eyes and gazed down so I could not read her). Take note this girl is sx/so (I'm sx/sp). This limerence manifested in totally avoiding the girl, while she was super horny (was making advances towards me even during class, one time even tried to turn me on when she went up to the chalkboard, in front of all the class, which I dissaproved. This is how crazy this girl became. Another time I was sitting in class behind her, but not close, like four rows or so, and she turned herself towards me and gave me a look... that could kill, with her sx/so eyes.. Take note that I was limerent towards her from the moment I saw she was infatuated with me, and when I am limerent, the functional workings of everyday living are almost impossible; limerence is a very strong vital happening for me that overtakes my behavior and thoughts (but I am a very controlled person, I'm probably the person with most self-control I know. I don't do anything stupid).

    2)With the lesbian girl. Some girl I met on a lesbian place. This one is Sx/sp, and very probably gamma too, her behavior was very similar to mine. Strongest stuff I've ever felt, lasted about a month or so. My testicles got swollen and ached horribly (pardon the crassness but I want to document this down the most throrough as possible-- I actually got all red in the face while writing this). To be honest, I actually liked another girl from the lesbian place, but this girl showed up and bang!, we fell in love and all happened. Before I told her that I was feeling something, I could tell (I'm kinda perceptive, normally) that she also was feeling something, so I decided to expose it, confess, and give it a go. I had what I believe was "astral sex" with this girl; during the night when she was not around I suspect she was "thinking of me" () and I got super aroused. The worst thing about this is not that she finally revealed herself to me that she had been as screwed with it as I had been when it was ending, and gave me the boot, but that I never even saw her face since she rejected sending me a picture of herself . I'm not even sure if she even saw me either, since the IRC program I used was buggy and I suspect she did not receive the picture I sent her. Strangest thing ever.


    These are the most relevant of my 4 infatuation experiences because these girls are Sx first, so it was somewhat reciprocal. If you have any questions, ask (I reserve my right to answer them or not, though).
    Last edited by roger557; 12-01-2021 at 10:39 PM.

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    FYI, since roger created this thread for talk about gammas+limerence, I made a thread about limerence in general here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...3334-Limerence

    It is his thread, and he didn't start it to discuss whether limerence is healthy, in all fairness.
    ESI-Se ✰ ISFP
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    (I think this is a defective system that fails to capture who/how I am for the most part, though. I relate to NONE of the driving motives/defense mechanisms behind any type.)

    "I think that it is sometimes really hard for us to understand what someone else's journey is . . . I think that is part of the intrigue . . . but when we don't understand someone else's culture, or where they have been, we can often misinterpret their actions and what they mean because of that." — Georgia Dow


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    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    Is that you in the picture?
    No, it was not. It's insanely unlikely that I will ever use my RL pics here in any way. I don't see a point in doing so. I get no benefit from it.
    ESI-Se ✰ ISFP
    Enneagram: 6 Sx/Sx/Sx/So -ish, Tritype 628
    (I think this is a defective system that fails to capture who/how I am for the most part, though. I relate to NONE of the driving motives/defense mechanisms behind any type.)

    "I think that it is sometimes really hard for us to understand what someone else's journey is . . . I think that is part of the intrigue . . . but when we don't understand someone else's culture, or where they have been, we can often misinterpret their actions and what they mean because of that." — Georgia Dow


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    I'm pretty sure I have been limerent before and it has honestly thrown me off the whole thing because I'm not sure if I'm capable of anything better. It's a hell of a drug.

    For me it's like crush->limerence->love where I haven't experienced the 3rd one but have the other 2.

    Limerence feels like love, and it tries to convince you it is (it's most similar to romantic/passionate love), but it is incredibly negative for you.

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    Limerence is unhealthy
    Is it always unhealthy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    No, it was not. It's insanely unlikely that I will ever use my RL pics here in any way. I don't see a point in doing so. I get no benefit from it.
    SEI-Fe



    ESI-Se



    SLI-Si (that's why I thought it could be you, also b/c it seems a homemade photo- SLI-Si 3w2 so/sp)


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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    I'm pretty sure I have been limerent before and it has honestly thrown me off the whole thing because I'm not sure if I'm capable of anything better
    you are and you should have told me you dog

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    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    SEI-Fe



    ESI-Se



    SLI-Si (that's why I thought it could be you, also b/c it seems a homemade photo- SLI-Si 3w2 so/sp)

    @roger557, SEIs and ESIs and SLIs all have 4D Si.

    I orta know. I have one as a secretary, have dated the second, and married the third.

    It makes my present dating a bit more challenging than it would be otherwise.

    Truthfully, I get a lot of messages from SEIs on Match. None from SLIs or ESIs. With the latter, I have to initiate. I think the SEIs are more forward because their Duals are more awkward on social media and the SEIs need to be forward or they will be alone forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    you are and you should have told me you dog
    I don't know if I am. I think I'm only capable of quick-burners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    SEI-Fe



    ESI-Se



    SLI-Si (that's why I thought it could be you, also b/c it seems a homemade photo- SLI-Si 3w2 so/sp)

    I think I get the "activity" relationship a bit better now. I may not want to marry that ESI, but holy hell do I want to go on an adventure with her. We may fuck or we may not but that's an irrelevant consideration. She wants me to join her on an adventure and I have no intention of refusing her. Fuck, look at her eyes. I'll have that jaded and disdainful look inverted by the end of this

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    I don't know if I am. I think I'm only capable of quick-burners.
    imo the good news is that there is a chance we don't know what love is, let alone deep love

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    imo the good news is that there is a chance we don't know what love is, let alone deep love
    Love is something you give to someone else. The more you do it, the better you get at it.

    If you have other people in your life who can give you love, then you can get a head start, but you can learn to love at any time and to any extent.

    At least, that’s what I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I think I get the "activity" relationship a bit better now.

    I may not want to marry that ESI, but holy hell do I want to go on an adventure with her. We may fuck or we may not but that's an irrelevant consideration. She wants me to join her on an adventure and I have no intention of refusing her.


    Fuck, look at her eyes. I'll have that jaded and disdainful look inverted by the end of this
    @End, that's exactly how I feel towards female SEEs. Exactly.

    But here is the problem with Activity. The functions of the two people overlap. They aren't fully separated, and unlike Duality where your partner is good at stuff and you know it and just defer to them, in Activity, you're both good in some of the same areas and, as @FreelancePoliceman has said, you end up stepping on each other's toes.

    We all have "levers" which we use to try to influence other people. In the case of Duals, those levers are fully connected to the machinery inside the Dual; in people with non-Dual function positions, some of those levers are not connected and you end up frantically shifting some levers and nothing happens with the non-Dual.

    Here are a couple examples of Activity relations.

    I knew a beautiful (are there any other kind?) SEE who was into Astrology and I told her that Socionics was a much better system. She showed me a picture of a guy she was thinking of dating. He looked like a sloppy LSI-Se and I told her that he wasn't an ILI Dual. The next week, she was dating him. She heard what I said, but she wasn't going to take my advice.

    I have a great ILI-Te buddy who married an ESI-Se. He's a tax attorney, she works for the city in the library and she gets right in the faces of the citizens who don't behave. But she's ESI, not SEE.
    When they met, she was deep in debt but he married her anyway. She basically came on to him and was relentless, because Activity looks so great at first and is sooooo easy to start.
    After a few years of his careful planning, they were out of debt. He had her on a budget where she could spend right up to what they could afford and still make the house payment and save for retirement, and it was very livable. But she wasn't going to listen to him.
    He opened the mail one day and found a credit card bill for over $10k, and it was growing at some ridiculous rate. He thought it was a mistake, so he called the credit card company and they said, no mistake, she's had it for a long time and has only been making the minimum payments on it.

    He went ballistic. He called me to vent. He was shouting, which he never does. I was a bit worried.
    "I didn't even know she had this account! What the hell! She never told me about it! It's over ten. Thousand. Dollars!"

    "Can you sell some of the stuff she bought?"

    "NO! SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING! SHE CAN'T TELL ME WHERE THE MONEY WENT! SHE HAS NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT!"

    He was shouting into the phone like she'd just stabbed him in the back, and I was getting scared for their marriage.

    "I'M GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE OUT A SECOND MORTGAGE TO GET OUT FROM UNDER THE HIGH INTEREST RATE."

    And then he said, more quietly, "And she hid this from me."

    Well. OK. He's good at Ni and Te, but he's not an LIE. They are still together, but when I visit them, they spend time on opposite sides of the house.

    I worked with an ESI-Se Dual this summer, and let me say, she was an expert at spending money. She burned through over $40k in three months and was just getting started, but when I told her that I was running low on cash in the penny jar, she stopped spending. Just stopped. And I had given her my credit card, so I know this was true.

    The difference was that when I spoke, she listened. And when she speaks, I listen. I don't try to second-guess her, or say to myself, "Oh, she says this but I know better." No. We listen to each other and check in often to make sure that we're on the same page.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 12-05-2021 at 04:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @End, that's exactly how I feel towards female SEEs. Exactly.

    But here is the problem with Activity. The functions of the two people overlap. They aren't fully separated, and unlike Duality where your partner is good at stuff and you know it and just defer to them, in Activity, you're both good in some of the same areas and, as @FreelancePoliceman has said, you end up stepping on each other's toes.

    We all have "levers" which we use to try to influence other people. In the case of Duals, those levers are fully connected to the machinery inside the Dual; in people with non-Dual function positions, some of those levers are not connected and you end up frantically shifting some levers and nothing happens with the non-Dual.

    Here are a couple examples of Activity relations.

    I knew a beautiful (are there any other kind?) SEE who was into Astrology and I told her that Socionics was a much better system. She showed me a picture of a guy she was thinking of dating. He looked like a sloppy LSI-Se and I told her that he wasn't an ILI Dual. The next week, she was dating him. She heard what I said, but she wasn't going to take my advice.

    I have a great ILI-Te buddy who married an ESI-Se. He's a tax attorney, she works for the city in the library and she gets right in the faces of the citizens who don't behave. But she's ESI, not SEE.
    When they met, she was deep in debt but he married her anyway. She basically came on to him and was relentless, because Activity looks so great at first and is sooooo easy to start.
    After a few years of his careful planning, they were out of debt. He had her on a budget where she could spend right up to what they could afford and still make the house payment and save for retirement, and it was very livable. But she wasn't going to listen to him.
    He opened the mail one day and found a credit card bill for over $10k, and it was growing at some ridiculous rate. He thought it was a mistake, so he called the credit card company and they said, no mistake, she's had it for a long time and has only been making the minimum payments on it.

    He went ballistic. He called me to vent. He was shouting, which he never does. I was a bit worried.
    "I didn't even know she had this account! What the hell! She never told me about it! It's over ten. Thousand. Dollars!"

    "Can you sell some of the stuff she bought?"

    "NO! SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING! SHE CAN'T TELL ME WHERE THE MONEY WENT! SHE HAS NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT!"

    He was shouting into the phone like she'd just stabbed him in the back, and I was getting scared for their marriage.

    "i'M GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE OUT A SECOND MORTGAGE TO GET OUT FROM UNDER THE HIGH INTEREST RATE."

    And then he said, more quietly, "And she hid this from me."

    Well. OK. He's good at Ni and Te, but he's not an LIE. They are still together, but when I visit them, they spend time on opposite sides of the house.

    I worked with an ESI-Se this summer, and let me say, she was an expert at spending money. She burned through over $40k in three months and was just getting started, but when I told her that I was running low on cash in the penny jar, she stopped spending. Just stopped. And I had given her my credit card, so I know this was true.

    The difference was that when I spoke, she listened. And when she speaks, I listen. I don't try to second-guess her, or say to myself, "Oh, she says this but I know better." No. We listen to each other and check in often to make sure that we're on the same page.
    This is the problems with most Fi lead I know (Including EII). They do not spend money on purpose, they don't even know why their money gone. I realize that they spend most of their money for alot of small little things instead of bying one or two expensive thing. They never count, so they think they just use a little of their money..

    SEE is a little different. They spend money on purpose. They love luxury stuff, and can spend alot to buy them, but they also more aware of their own money than ESI. They can plan saving money to buy the expensive thing they want.

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    @End, I just thought of a third example of Activity relations going wrong.

    The month I paid off my house, I bought another one and rented it out. I hired a property manager and the place lost money for a while, but making money on rental properties requires that you get in there and get it done right now, and now it's close to break-even after a huge amount of effort from me every year.*

    I know this ILI guy who is brilliant. Computational fluid dynamics brilliant. He's married to a very nice ESI. I've met her at their home.
    She wants him to make more money, but he's not good at asking for more money from his job. So she told him to buy a second house that they could rent out.
    He called me and asked me what I thought of him becoming a landlord, and I advised him against it. It requires fast responses and plunging toilets at 2AM in the winter, and I just thought that he could do better investing in stocks.
    But, the ESI lives with him and I don't, so he bought a rental house two years ago. He borrowed a lot to make it both livable and beautiful, but he can't find renters. It's still empty after two years. It is a financial disaster of astounding magnitude.
    He called me to ask me to stay in that house when I'm visiting that city. He said I could pay him rent with a check and he'd refund all my money in cash, just so he could claim the house as a rental on his taxes. (This is not legal, but he doesn't expect to be caught. However, I do, so I politely declined. I do not need any more trouble with the IRS.)
    You see, he's much better at Ni/Te taxes than he is at going out and grabbing people off the street to live in his house.

    I blame his ESI wife for pushing him into doing something that he's not good at. She was expecting an LIE. An SEE would never have done that to him.

    *

    Despite what you might think, landlords do not typically make any money on the rent itself. All of the rent, and often more than the rent, goes towards paying the debt payment (the mortgage from the bank) plus the maintenance costs of maintaining the property. My rental has an improved bathroom that cost, after professional improvements and city inspections, over $27k. And it's a very small bathroom.
    Landlords make money on property appreciation, which is why the rule for buying rental property is Location, location, location. In a place where the value of the property doesn't rise, the landlord is near break-even or is losing money.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 12-05-2021 at 04:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @End, that's exactly how I feel towards female SEEs. Exactly.

    But here is the problem with Activity. The functions of the two people overlap. They aren't fully separated, and unlike Duality where your partner is good at stuff and you know it and just defer to them, in Activity, you're both good in some of the same areas and, as @FreelancePoliceman has said, you end up stepping on each other's toes.

    We all have "levers" which we use to try to influence other people. In the case of Duals, those levers are fully connected to the machinery inside the Dual; in people with non-Dual function positions, some of those levers are not connected and you end up frantically shifting some levers and nothing happens with the non-Dual.

    Here are a couple examples of Activity relations.

    I knew a beautiful (are there any other kind?) SEE who was into Astrology and I told her that Socionics was a much better system. She showed me a picture of a guy she was thinking of dating. He looked like a sloppy LSI-Se and I told her that he wasn't an ILI Dual. The next week, she was dating him. She heard what I said, but she wasn't going to take my advice.

    I have a great ILI-Te buddy who married an ESI-Se. He's a tax attorney, she works for the city in the library and she gets right in the faces of the citizens who don't behave. But she's ESI, not SEE.
    When they met, she was deep in debt but he married her anyway. She basically came on to him and was relentless, because Activity looks so great at first and is sooooo easy to start.
    After a few years of his careful planning, they were out of debt. He had her on a budget where she could spend right up to what they could afford and still make the house payment and save for retirement, and it was very livable. But she wasn't going to listen to him.
    He opened the mail one day and found a credit card bill for over $10k, and it was growing at some ridiculous rate. He thought it was a mistake, so he called the credit card company and they said, no mistake, she's had it for a long time and has only been making the minimum payments on it.

    He went ballistic. He called me to vent. He was shouting, which he never does. I was a bit worried.
    "I didn't even know she had this account! What the hell! She never told me about it! It's over ten. Thousand. Dollars!"

    "Can you sell some of the stuff she bought?"

    "NO! SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING! SHE CAN'T TELL ME WHERE THE MONEY WENT! SHE HAS NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT!"

    He was shouting into the phone like she'd just stabbed him in the back, and I was getting scared for their marriage.

    "I'M GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE OUT A SECOND MORTGAGE TO GET OUT FROM UNDER THE HIGH INTEREST RATE."

    And then he said, more quietly, "And she hid this from me."

    Well. OK. He's good at Ni and Te, but he's not an LIE. They are still together, but when I visit them, they spend time on opposite sides of the house.

    I worked with an ESI-Se Dual this summer, and let me say, she was an expert at spending money. She burned through over $40k in three months and was just getting started, but when I told her that I was running low on cash in the penny jar, she stopped spending. Just stopped. And I had given her my credit card, so I know this was true.

    The difference was that when I spoke, she listened. And when she speaks, I listen. I don't try to second-guess her, or say to myself, "Oh, she says this but I know better." No. We listen to each other and check in often to make sure that we're on the same page.
    And as you'd expect this is where my new obsession kicks in. Attachment issues. The ESI hid that from him because she feared he'd hate her for it and abandon her. In so doing it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Had she just mentioned it up front and had confidence that he would not reject or abandon her if she did the problem would have been minor.

    How his thought process likely would have went had she been honest from the start: Damnit. Another complication. Thankfully you mentioned it now instead of later so I can compensate and adapt. If I found out about this a year or two from now, well, all my current plans would get pretty fucked and I would have interpreted this as an outright betrayal of my trust. Didn't you know I love you? Didn't you trust that I love you? You don't hide shit like this from people you love as deeply as you claim you love me and by God do I love you to that degree and more. I wouldn't put in this much effort for someone I deemed unworthy (and trust you me, most everyone else is). Yet you sabotaged my efforts from the start because you, deep down, didn't trust me. You and everyone else might mistake me for some cold calculating robot that's just using you but I've shown you I'm not! I care, I love, I feel a thousand times more strongly than I give any evidence towards in regard to the outside world and you of all people should know that!

    This assumes he's healthy in the attachment department of course. At least he likely won't face divorce if he is. Healthy males seem to be pretty much immune to divorce by unhealthy females because they seem to pick up on that and know that healthy men are literally the best thing possible for their potential children. This is also why two unhealthy people do just fine until a kid enters the picture. Then the woman notices the father isn't healthily attaching to her kids and is hurting them thereby and starts to hate the dude she's wed to out of the blue. Hurt a woman's own kids in any way if said woman isn't a sociopath... yeah, bad idea even if you aren't even trying or intending to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @End, I just thought of a third example of Activity relations going wrong.

    The month I paid off my house, I bought another one and rented it out. I hired a property manager and the place lost money for a while, but making money on rental properties requires that you get in there and get it done right now, and now it's close to break-even after a huge amount of effort from me every year.*

    I know this ILI guy who is brilliant. Computational fluid dynamics brilliant. He's married to a very nice ESI. I've met her at their home.
    She wants him to make more money, but he's not good at asking for more money from his job. So she told him to buy a second house that they could rent out.
    He called me and asked me what I thought of him becoming a landlord, and I advised him against it. It requires fast responses and plunging toilets at 2AM in the winter, and I just thought that he could do better investing in stocks.
    But, the ESI lives with him and I don't, so he bought a rental house two years ago. He borrowed a lot to make it both livable and beautiful, but he can't find renters. It's still empty after two years. It is a financial disaster of astounding magnitude.
    He called me to ask me to stay in that house when I'm visiting that city. He said I could pay him rent with a check and he'd refund all my money in cash, just so he could claim the house as a rental on his taxes. (This is not legal, but he doesn't expect to be caught. However, I do, so I politely declined. I do not need any more trouble with the IRS.)
    You see, he's much better at Ni/Te taxes than he is at going out and grabbing people off the street to live in his house.

    I blame his ESI wife for pushing him into doing something that he's not good at. She was expecting an LIE. An SEE would never have done that to him.

    *

    Despite what you might think, landlords do not typically make any money on the rent itself. All of the rent, and often more than the rent, goes towards paying the debt payment (the mortgage from the bank) plus the maintenance costs of maintaining the property. My rental has an improved bathroom that cost, after professional improvements and city inspections, over $27k. And it's a very small bathroom.
    Landlords make money on property appreciation, which is why the rule for buying rental property is Location, location, location. In a place where the value of the property doesn't rise, the landlord is near break-even or is losing money.
    You are feeding me data at a good pace recently. I like that.

    I'd have told her that it was fine if we got another rental property but she's clearly the better manager so that'd be on her. She gets to be the one to plunge the toilets and the like. If she's fully OK with that than yeah, I'll take out that loan and do as she request. Otherwise we're spending the excess money on precious metals or crypto (depending on which the particular ILI in question was more confident in in regards to their knowledge. As for me, precious metals if you must ask).

    Also, you're damn right you don't fuck with the IRS. He is correct on the odds being low but he's failing to see how bad it gets if you just so happen to "lose" that X-percent chance roll. It's Russian roulette with an X-shot revolver aimed at the head. Yeah, the odds are against it pretty hard but if it lands, you're fucking dead. I'm guessing his Sp instinct is the one he lets slide (as So is for me).

    Finally, sales and persuasion is a thing that has a lot of study behind them. This very field plays a role in it as well. Any type can learn how to be more persuasive and thus learn how to be good at sales. Any and all types can ABC (Always Be Closing). How they do it, however, is unique to them. Like writing, illustration, or any other artform, it's an art, a craft. Mastery is within the grasp of everyone, but they must first put in the effort and time...

    To assume anyone or any type is just gonna be instantly or innately good at something is foolish. They're likely to be, but that doesn't mean they will be.
    Last edited by End; 12-06-2021 at 05:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    imo the good news is that there is a chance we don't know what love is, let alone deep love
    Yeah whenever somebody describes it, I'm like "I'm way too selfish for that"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post

    But here is the problem with Activity. The functions of the two people overlap. They aren't fully separated, and unlike Duality where your partner is good at stuff and you know it and just defer to them, in Activity, you're both good in some of the same areas and, as @FreelancePoliceman has said, you end up stepping on each other's toes.
    Mind clarifying further what some of the things that in the case of ESI and ILI, both are good at? Or pointing me to the pertinent post of F.P. if it's easy to find?
    I've noticed a competitive dynamic in an ESI-ILI friendship, so I'm curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The difference was that when I spoke, she listened. And when she speaks, I listen. I don't try to second-guess her, or say to myself, "Oh, she says this but I know better." No. We listen to each other and check in often to make sure that we're on the same page.
    I totally agree from my family relationships with duals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderwoman View Post
    Mind clarifying further what some of the things that in the case of ESI and ILI, both are good at? Or pointing me to the pertinent post of F.P. if it's easy to find?
    I've noticed a competitive dynamic in an ESI-ILI friendship, so I'm curious.

    I totally agree from my family relationships with duals.
    @wonderwoman, I think you'll get competition anytime you have functions which are not in a Dual arrangement. I tend to compete with everyone, but the closer a person is to my ESI Duals, the less I compete with them.

    When I first started working with an ESI-Se artist, I made the mistake of trying to influence the artwork she was doing for me. Neither of us had done this before, so she asked me what kind of art I liked, and I gave her some broad ranges and she picked the area that interested her. Then she started sketching and asked my opinion of the sketches. Surprisingly, we agreed on which ones were the most promising.

    Then, I made a mistake. I tried to tell her which colors should go where, and her artwork got worse. After a few rounds of this, I realized that I needed to keep my hands off her creativity and not try to influence her in her areas of expertise. When I did this, her art got much better.

    But if an ILI designs something, I can look at it and see where it can be improved. And my suggestions will actually improve the design, but the ILI will not appreciate the interference. He's looking for an SEE to tell him he's a genius, not an LIE to tell him that his design won't work outside of his theoretical world. It's a delicately balanced line you have to walk with non-Duals.

    My reference to F.P. might have been wrong; it might have been @Rebelondeck who said that non-Duals step on each other's toes. I can't find the reference, but I'm sure he'd be happy to elaborate.

    As for what ESIs and ILIs are both good at, they are both good at being introverts and wanting the other person to initiate, and being suspicious of other people's motives. Sharing traits like this makes it appear to them that they will have a lot in common, but what actually happens is that both of them sit in the room and wait for the other person to initiate some activity.

    Unless something forces them to go out and do something together. A schedule of hiking, going to the park, shopping for offbeat items, even going to museums or lectures. Then, they're OK. Until they get back inside.
    So if an ESI and an ILI are going to get along, they'd better have an itinerary of activities planned or they are going to be sitting in a room, staring at their phones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I have a great ILI-Te buddy who married an ESI-Se. He's a tax attorney, she works for the city in the library and she gets right in the faces of the citizens who don't behave. But she's ESI, not SEE.
    When they met, she was deep in debt but he married her anyway. She basically came on to him and was relentless, because Activity looks so great at first and is sooooo easy to start.
    After a few years of his careful planning, they were out of debt. He had her on a budget where she could spend right up to what they could afford and still make the house payment and save for retirement, and it was very livable. But she wasn't going to listen to him.
    He opened the mail one day and found a credit card bill for over $10k, and it was growing at some ridiculous rate. He thought it was a mistake, so he called the credit card company and they said, no mistake, she's had it for a long time and has only been making the minimum payments on it.

    He went ballistic. He called me to vent. He was shouting, which he never does. I was a bit worried.
    "I didn't even know she had this account! What the hell! She never told me about it! It's over ten. Thousand. Dollars!"

    "Can you sell some of the stuff she bought?"

    "NO! SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING! SHE CAN'T TELL ME WHERE THE MONEY WENT! SHE HAS NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT!"

    He was shouting into the phone like she'd just stabbed him in the back, and I was getting scared for their marriage.

    "I'M GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE OUT A SECOND MORTGAGE TO GET OUT FROM UNDER THE HIGH INTEREST RATE."

    And then he said, more quietly, "And she hid this from me."

    Well. OK. He's good at Ni and Te, but he's not an LIE. They are still together, but when I visit them, they spend time on opposite sides of the house.

    I worked with an ESI-Se Dual this summer, and let me say, she was an expert at spending money. She burned through over $40k in three months and was just getting started, but when I told her that I was running low on cash in the penny jar, she stopped spending. Just stopped. And I had given her my credit card, so I know this was true.

    The difference was that when I spoke, she listened. And when she speaks, I listen. I don't try to second-guess her, or say to myself, "Oh, she says this but I know better." No. We listen to each other and check in often to make sure that we're on the same page.
    What a sad story. For some reason I can imagine being the ESI here and being afraid to tell the ILI about what's truly going on, but feeling more comfortable telling an LIE.

    Another issue I've noticed in ILI-ESI relations happens when the ESI is working for or with on an academic project, and the ILI doesn't protect the ESI from an excess of Ne, simplifying the Ni ideas through Te like an LIE would. It's really frustrating because I know the ILI finds my skills useful (mainly that I handle details he'd rather not bother with), and I don't criticize him for his lack of Fe delivery in classes, so I'm like 'why you keep hitting me in the polr?' Fortunately, the working relationship is temporary and it's coming to a close soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderwoman View Post
    What a sad story. For some reason I can imagine being the ESI here and being afraid to tell the ILI about what's truly going on, but feeling more comfortable telling an LIE.
    If an ESI spent a large amount of money, my response would be to say "How much of it can we recover without spending more resources on this than we'd get back?", and "No problem. I'll find more money", and then I'd try to work with the ESI to ensure that it didn't happen again.

    This exact scenario played out with my LSI ex-GF once, and my response was to just mentally move on and fill the money bucket up again.


    Quote Originally Posted by wonderwoman View Post
    Another issue I've noticed in ILI-ESI relations happens when the ESI is working for or with on an academic project, and the ILI doesn't protect the ESI from an excess of Ne, simplifying the Ni ideas through Te like an LIE would. It's really frustrating because I know the ILI finds my skills useful (mainly that I handle details he'd rather not bother with), and I don't criticize him for his lack of Fe delivery in classes, so I'm like 'why you keep hitting me in the polr?' Fortunately, the working relationship is temporary and it's coming to a close soon.
    This is interesting. I thought that the ESI protected the LIE from the excesses of his Ne.
    I was talking to an ESI about possible futures, because I really have no idea most of the time how to set a value on my wants. I want X, and I want Y, but I don't know if I can make a profit doing Y but I've wanted Y for years and I can't tell if Y or even X would be better or worse overall compared to what I'm doing now.
    If X and Y were purely money questions, I'd have zero problem deciding between them. But they involve estimations of my future happiness on those two paths, and happiness is uncharted territory for me.

    The ESI didn't try to choose for me, she just asked me some questions about this and that, and they helped me a lot in thinking about the problem in practical terms and in setting some priorities. She was turning my "Ne - everything plus the kitchen sink" into "Ni - just one best plan."


    But now that I think of it, the ESI is always doing something to take care of my well-being, like improving the house or making me a healthy meal, so she's helping me with my Si-PoLR. So maybe I'm helping her in some way that I'm not consciously aware of with her Ne-PoLR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    So maybe I'm helping her in some way that I'm not consciously aware of with her Ne-PoLR.
    Have you ever helped an ESI to figure out how to turn their dreams into some reality -- if so, you will find yourself not getting paralyzed by the Ne endless paths out there but demystifying them. Ne demo. We find it SUPER helpful and it calms our mind enough to start taking steps when we might've been in inaction. But more casual examples could just be exposing the ESI to things that it turns out they like and/or find useful, but wouldn't have bothered to look into due to distrust of invisible potential. For the ESI who now uses these items in her quotidian existence, she feels that she is 'leveling up' in life -- having access to things she wouldn't have tried on her own -- so it's quite pleasant.

    edit: Maybe it's an exaggeration to say that Ne demo calms our minds. That's probably more Ni creative, but I'm certain that the coverage of Ne helps us, also, to get to that Ni best plan that we want. Pretty nice how humans can help each other with their problems by truly listening and using their strengths...
    Last edited by wonderwoman; 12-08-2021 at 04:58 AM.

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