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Thread: My thoughts on ESI - LIE duality

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    Post My thoughts on ESI - LIE duality

    This will be a series on LIE and ESI's behavior both as individuals and as duals. The descriptions available right now are from an outdated era.

    I'll be posting here on and off for the next couple of months. Periodically, I'll update the first post (the introduction).



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    ISFjs want to turn their interests into something amazing but concrete. To do this, they look for someone with vision who will provide an exciting but realistic goal which aligns with their desires.

    ISFjs know what their interests are. But they have a difficult time turning it into a plan which factors in different constraints, consequences, potential events, their own potential, what’s possible, what’s realistic, etc. They want someone to help them with this.

    ESIs are very much willing to take action when this is in place. But they struggle to get it in place. Sometimes they will coast for a long time, not because they lack the willpower to do things, but because they lack complex planning skills. This is what LIE should help them with.

    Sometimes, an ESI-Harmonizing who thinks “just get high bro” is a life path will suddenly but quietly start paying attention to someone who is all about executing an interesting and unconventional vision. Suddenly, they are looking for something to do. They want instructions. Their will to work materializes. They want to set bigger goals. They don’t fall into the trap of numbing out life because they see getting high as their life’s actual path, but because they don’t know what else to do. Substances merely dull that awareness.

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    Words that are appealing to ESI.

    “I haven’t given up on you. I think you are capable of a lot more than you realize. But if you disagree, I need to know. I’ll be disappointed but I won’t waste my time on this again.”



    Why does that work?


    • “I haven’t given up on you.” ESIs doubt their potential. To know someone has their back is incredibly meaningful to PolR Ne. Both LSIs and ESIs need someone who relentlessly believes in them.
    • “I think you are capable of a lot more than you realize.” Again, PolR Ne needs to know that someone can just take over figuring this out. And that they will initiate this conversation even if ESI doesn’t.
    • “But if you disagree, I need to know.” There’s room for disagreement and I can’t read your mind. You need to bridge that psychological distance. This is notice to you from a fellow rational type that I need a judgement call from you.
    • “I’ll be disappointed.” Role Fe. This will be my mood. Maybe Ni. This is the consequence. I can bear it. There’s no guilt tripping. Each party has to bear their own consequences. Everyone is responsible for themselves at the end. This doesn't need to be stated overtly. It can be implied.
    • “I won’t waste my time again.” Gamma quadra values time. It is better to communicate that you value your time (but you also value the other person). If you don’t communicate that at some point or the other, it might even feel unsafe to Gamma quadra members. However, if you start by saying “wont waste time,” then it sends a different message. It says Ni is stronger than Ne. That communicates impatience. I would use it in that order as a last resort.



    Things you shouldn’t say if ESI doubts themselves:


    • “If you think you are not capable.” Positivist LIE should figure out what ESI is capable of and tell them. This should be done by factoring in LIE's vision and ESI’s interests. If ESI figures it out, that’s a bonus, not a requirement.
    • “There are many others who would kill to be in your place.” ESI doesn’t want to be one of many, although they are willing to compete. Instead you can tell them, “look I really believe in you, but there ARE a lot of people people who want this spot. So I can’t hold on to it forever. I think you would be great at it because of X, Y, and Z. Yes, there are things you don’t know right now, but you can learn them. You need to make a decision about this by X date.”

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    No Chill 🔥 Noir's Avatar
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    You know...it's stupid that I relate so much to actual Socionics descriptions and IE's etc of ESI, and yet so little of what the community stereotypes about us.

    To this ESI personally, the above post truly misses the mark. It's more insulting/condescending than appealing to me, personally. I'd probably look at you like you're an idiot if you said this to me, lmao. This is why you really should exercise caution when generalizing about types. Evidence of their actions should manifest prior to what you think they're like just because they're X type. I don't give one single fuck whether anyone else believes in me, I believe in my damn self. Outside approval isn't needed. I also don't need anyone to take over figuring anything out — don't insult my independence/capability while flattering yourself as if I need you. Pfft. Please, give me a break. "You are capable of a lot more than you realize" also always seemed like something people try to make themselves believe when they're telling themselves, so I don't see why being told this is any better. Those are merely some superficial, shallow, surface level words. It doesn't get to the core issues and challenge anyone to overcome the actual issue. I don't doubt my own capabilities though, either. If anything, I find myself more capable than most, hold myself to higher standards than most; because I expect that I am more capable than most, I actually take control and responsibility for things when it's not overly burdensome, and/or shield others by taking a blow for them, knowing my endurance is higher. In general, I'm about 10x's harder on myself than others — because I know what I'm capable of. Other people disappoint me.

    “There are many others who would kill to be in your place.” — Probably already well aware and don't care at all because their desires don't necessarily reflect my own. Something being desirable by many isn't going to influence whether I myself, personally, desire it. I see it as obvious but irrelevant/insignificant.

    Aside from that, I don't see what Ne PoLR has to do with someone having a person's back, nor someone figuring things out. Seems entirely disparate.
    Life knocked my dick in the dirt
    I got back up, flipped it the bird

    Not to mention, I learned
    How to turn resentment and hurt
    To an unquenchable thirst, in the simplest terms
    But all you see is the fame and the millions
    You don't see the strength and resilience

    I make it look easy
    But you don't see the dark side
    And all of the monsters I had to fight
    And all of the nightmares
    Made me stronger than life

    ESI-Se
    (but innovative / unconventional)
    Enneagram: No Match | AP: No Match | MBTI: Garbage


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    In relationships, Victim-Aggressor types have their own games. And each type will have their own version of it. If you know how to play the game and you win, you go to the next level. Otherwise, the person will repeat the game every now and then to see if you can ace the test.


    ----

    One game LIE plays to draw their dual in: chasing you by positioning themselves in front of you, but simultaneously distancing through productivity.


    Victim types play many games. One of them is about perception: "Do you understand the game I'm playing even though I look like I'm not interested? Can you see that I'm faking disinterest?"


    LIEs play this game by appearing to be productive right in front of you when they know you are going to show up somewhere. They won't play this game with you unless they are trying to draw you in or they are trying to reconnect with you.

    So what does it look like? They know you are going to pass through a certain section of the building or maybe there's a cafe or coworking space which you visit. They'll know when you visit, when you are least likely to be a in a rush, etc. That you have time to chat for at least X minutes or an hour or whatever.

    Or they know that you will be in a certain meeting. They will make sure that they will be there too and that you will have to interact with them for some minor reason.


    They know that you will show up somewhere because they have been collecting information on you by observing you or analyzing you and deducing whatever they can. Low-key, they'll collect all the available data in as reasonable a way as possible. Don't doubt that. Part of them wonders if they are intruding on your privacy. Generally, they have their own personal limits. They are usually beyond what would make some people comfortable. That's why they keep their mouths shut about it or only discuss it with open minded friends.


    The way they see it: if it doesn't hurt you and it helps them understand you better, why should they judge themselves? That's not practical.

    LIEs won't ask 50 people for information about you. But because we live in an information age where collecting information can be done relatively anonymously, LIEs feels comfortable doing so. If that's not possible, they'll do it by just observing you. What are you into? What are your habits? What's your routine? What is most likely going on in your life based on the schedule you have and activities you have chosen? LIE will try to deduce how much you earn, what type of job you have, what your life looks like, who your exes are, what your relationship status is, and way more.



    The motivation of the game


    They want to keep themselves informed so that they can provide an opportunity to someone else to bridge the interpersonal distance. And information is just one small but vital part of that process.




    How they set up.


    They show up early and set themselves up. They will carefully choose a location where you will HAVE to see them and they are most likely to interact with you. If the right spot is not available right away, they will kick themselves for being shortsighted and move at the first available opportunity. If something interrupts their strange little plan, they'll go take care of it and kick themselves for the bad timing or not factoring this in. Then they will make a mental note to look for a better opportunity to connect with you in the future.


    They will go through this drama even if it is less comfortable than their office or home. Even if it would be easier to just call you and ask you out. If the place is clearly noisier and they can't focus as well as they can at home, it is irrelevant to them during that moment. They'll set themselves up there.

    The events


    They will wait and watch out for you while they are on that mostly boring zoom call or conference call. Or they will sit there busily working on a report they supposedly HAVE to submit soon. You'll know whatever they are up to because they'll tell you. When will they do that and how?


    You'll pass by them. They will say hi. Yes, they'll initiate. If you say hi and ask them a question, they'll tell you they are busy. There's an online convention going on or something like that. It's important, you see. It's for work. Or for it's for their pet project. Or whatever "important" or "useful" thing they are into.


    Then something bizarre happens. They will turn away from you. They seem to disconnect from you. After all that effort, they don't want to talk to you. They don't even want to make plans with you. They haven't even mentioned the idea of seeing you again.


    If you don't know how to read the signals, you'll wonder WTF was that? Do they want to be left alone? If they have already indicated interest in you before, you might wonder, is LIE into me or not? I don't think even other LIEs know how to read each other properly when this game is going on.


    So here's a little tip.


    If LIE actually wanted to be 100% productive, there's no way they would choose a setting that disturbs their focus. They wouldn't choose a setting where random people will interrupt. If they choose such a setting, one of these things is true: (1) there was no other choice, (2) it was a situational decision (had to do it before going somewhere else), (3) they are looking to network with the people who show up there, or (4) they want someone/people to connect with them.


    If they keep showing up in front of you somehow or the other while appearing busy, it's probably intentional.


    I think this is because nature designed ESI to separate people into "my people" and "not my people." So when LIE keeps showing up and appearing relatively harmless but productive, they live on the boundary of those two lines. Which means it's ok to talk to them. I'm guessing about that part though.

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    No Chill 🔥 Noir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post
    In relationships, Victim-Aggressor types have their own games. And each type will have their own version of it. If you know how to play the game and you win, you go to the next level. Otherwise, the person will repeat the game every now and then to see if you can ace the test.

    One game LIE plays to draw their dual in: chasing you by positioning themselves in front of you, but simultaneously distancing through productivity.

    Victim types play many games. One of them is about perception: "Do you understand the game I'm playing even though I look like I'm not interested? Can you see that I'm faking disinterest?"
    Lmao, my LIE boyfriend did very similar, except he tried to make me jealous instead of being productive. It backfired because I didn't know he was trying to make me jealous, so I thought he was a manwhore that would end up cheating on me. He lost me for like a year or two because of that. I've actually read that LIE/ESI is one of the harder intertypes since ESIs see them as flawed in character initially. Guess it was true in our case.

    I just read the title more closely — “My thoughts on ESI - LIE duality” — whoops. I'll bugger off now.


    EDIT:
    Btw, as far as the whole “trying to make me jealous” thing goes, I personally don't believe in competing with others for a person. The way I see it…if their attention is that divided, they must not be all that decided on me. If you can take them, take them; I'll find someone who values me and wants me more than that. 2 years later I found out he's still completely in love with me and just sort of fucked up by not being honest/straightforward, so clearly, things aren't always so black and white. There's that Ne PoLR black/white-ness, I guess.
    Last edited by Noir; 10-26-2021 at 04:36 PM.
    Life knocked my dick in the dirt
    I got back up, flipped it the bird

    Not to mention, I learned
    How to turn resentment and hurt
    To an unquenchable thirst, in the simplest terms
    But all you see is the fame and the millions
    You don't see the strength and resilience

    I make it look easy
    But you don't see the dark side
    And all of the monsters I had to fight
    And all of the nightmares
    Made me stronger than life

    ESI-Se
    (but innovative / unconventional)
    Enneagram: No Match | AP: No Match | MBTI: Garbage


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire View Post
    Lmao, my LIE boyfriend did very similar, except he tried to make me jealous instead of being productive. It backfired because I didn't know he was trying to make me jealous, so I thought he was a manwhore that would end up cheating on me. He lost me for like a year or two because of that. I've actually read that LIE/ESI is one of the harder intertypes since ESIs see them as flawed in character initially. Guess it was true in our case.

    I just read the title more closely — “My thoughts on ESI - LIE duality” — whoops. I'll bugger off now.

    Don't bugger off, @Phoenix Fire This thread needs some real world feedback.

    Lol. That's me for sure. "flawed in character'.

    The ESI-Se that I've known for years told me recently that the world is a fucked up place and I'm one of the reasons why. Well, hey, girl. Do, or Do not.

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    This is extremely interesting. I look forward to the development of this thread! I can see why ESI and SEI are seen as quasi identical cause I can see the appeal and why conflictors and your dual can seem so similar.

    Anyways, learned some interesting stuff today! Thanks!

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    No Chill 🔥 Noir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Don't bugger off, @Phoenix Fire This thread needs some real world feedback.

    Lol. That's me for sure. "flawed in character'.

    The ESI-Se that I've known for years told me recently that the world is a fucked up place and I'm one of the reasons why. Well, hey, girl. Do, or Do not.
    Lol oof, damn. Even I tend to be a bit more encouraging than that, as blunt as I am...I tend to approach things from the perspective that the individual is separate from their actions and it isn't part of who they are, it's merely what they do, therefore making it a little easier to digest and hopefully encouraging them to be honest with themselves and believe they can tackle it. I have had a few conversations with an LIE involving them interpreting my “this dynamic is ineffective” statements as “you're defective.” I've known for years that such approaches generally make people less receptive. I try to basically let others know that it's okay to make mistakes, have flaws, and be imperfect. It's the first step in challenging them to reach their own potential. If people don't admit there's a shortcoming, they can't see that there's an opportunity to grow beyond it. If they feel judged, they probably won't feel comfortable opening up to you. IME, LIEs often have a difficult enough time with opening up and being vulnerable as it is (probably not applicable to every single one, but is a pattern I've experienced thus far).

    EDIT:
    Also, I don't want to be too hard on others and thus crush their spirits or something. My goal isn't to tear down or break, it's to build them up. Knowing how much “force/pressure” to apply, and when, is important. You don't want to make people accept a reality that they feel makes them inherently flawed or defective, because then they wind up discouraged or feeling like their spirit is broken. That doesn't provoke someone to action/overcoming. It only hurts their self-esteem.
    Life knocked my dick in the dirt
    I got back up, flipped it the bird

    Not to mention, I learned
    How to turn resentment and hurt
    To an unquenchable thirst, in the simplest terms
    But all you see is the fame and the millions
    You don't see the strength and resilience

    I make it look easy
    But you don't see the dark side
    And all of the monsters I had to fight
    And all of the nightmares
    Made me stronger than life

    ESI-Se
    (but innovative / unconventional)
    Enneagram: No Match | AP: No Match | MBTI: Garbage


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    No Chill 🔥 Noir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire View Post
    EDIT:
    Also, I don't want to be too hard on others and thus crush their spirits or something. My goal isn't to tear down or break, it's to build them up. Knowing how much “force/pressure” to apply, and when, is important. You don't want to make people accept a reality that they feel makes them inherently flawed or defective, because then they wind up discouraged or feeling like their spirit is broken. That doesn't provoke someone to action/overcoming. It only hurts their self-esteem.
    This kind of thing is a dynamic that has been necessary to explain before. Sometimes I hear about the advice my boyfriend gave, or how he dealt with someone, and I'm like "(HE/YOU) SAID WHAT TO THEM?!” Lmao. The most recent example was, “you can't come down on someone who is already coming down on themselves, especially when you're coming down on them for coming down on themselves, lmao. That only makes them worse…you have to build them up and encourage them toward the right direction in those moments…” I laugh because I know he's innocent about it and doesn't mean to handle things in such a way, and is learning, but I'm also facepalming.

    Other ways I think that duality has manifested via Fi-Seeking / Fe Base is the times when I warned him about someone else, explained the dynamics, but he continued to doubt. Eventually, their character became far more obvious through their actions, and then he saw it once it was extremely clear they were deliberately trying to inflict harm onto me. He doubts things a bit too much, gives people too much credit or too many chances. I'll give him warnings or insights, and he will kind of just be like “maybe, but IDK…” initially.
    Last edited by Noir; 10-27-2021 at 12:45 AM.
    Life knocked my dick in the dirt
    I got back up, flipped it the bird

    Not to mention, I learned
    How to turn resentment and hurt
    To an unquenchable thirst, in the simplest terms
    But all you see is the fame and the millions
    You don't see the strength and resilience

    I make it look easy
    But you don't see the dark side
    And all of the monsters I had to fight
    And all of the nightmares
    Made me stronger than life

    ESI-Se
    (but innovative / unconventional)
    Enneagram: No Match | AP: No Match | MBTI: Garbage


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire View Post
    You know...it's stupid that I relate so much to actual Socionics descriptions and IE's etc of ESI, and yet so little of what the community stereotypes about us.

    To this ESI personally, the above post truly misses the mark. It's more insulting/condescending than appealing to me, personally. I'd probably look at you like you're an idiot if you said this to me, lmao. This is why you really should exercise caution when generalizing about types. Evidence of their actions should manifest prior to what you think they're like just because they're X type. I don't give one single fuck whether anyone else believes in me, I believe in my damn self. Outside approval isn't needed. I also don't need anyone to take over figuring anything out — don't insult my independence/capability while flattering yourself as if I need you. Pfft. Please, give me a break. "You are capable of a lot more than you realize" also always seemed like something people try to make themselves believe when they're telling themselves, so I don't see why being told this is any better. Those are merely some superficial, shallow, surface level words. It doesn't get to the core issues and challenge anyone to overcome the actual issue. I don't doubt my own capabilities though, either. If anything, I find myself more capable than most, hold myself to higher standards than most; because I expect that I am more capable than most, I actually take control and responsibility for things when it's not overly burdensome, and/or shield others by taking a blow for them, knowing my endurance is higher. In general, I'm about 10x's harder on myself than others — because I know what I'm capable of. Other people disappoint me.

    “There are many others who would kill to be in your place.” — Probably already well aware and don't care at all because their desires don't necessarily reflect my own. Something being desirable by many isn't going to influence whether I myself, personally, desire it. I see it as obvious but irrelevant/insignificant.

    Aside from that, I don't see what Ne PoLR has to do with someone having a person's back, nor someone figuring things out. Seems entirely disparate.

    You just gave a demonstration of what defensive version of Ne PolR looks like. So thanks for that!

    It's really interesting that you don't see anything I see. You are unable to see those statements outside personal experiences. (1 dimensional). You see the norm but don't comprehend it (again, 1D). You can't understand them in a different situation. And you certainly can't see them over time. Thanks for showing us what it looks like from the inside!

    Instead you see it all as hard work and climbing uphill. Strong Se.


    Every type believes in themselves, but it doesn't mean Ne PolR automatically knows how to measure and optimize their potential. Or knows how to keep proceeding through the unknown. They think they need to hustle, but simply pushing forward is not enough in many cases. These are the things that xSI's duals help them with. That's how LIE and EIE have their dual's back. By not letting them fall apart when assessing their own talents and the possibilities present/emerging in an environment.



    When 4D Ne believes in someone and thinks they are capable of doing something, they don't mean "you go girl. Do you."

    This is what 4D Ne of LIE sees (with some other stuff thrown in) (other types of 4D Ne probably see a version of it too)

    "I believe in your potential relentlessly because I have assessed the environment or marketplace and assessed you. I think you are absolutely capable of doing this. The things you are underestimating in yourself are understandable but I believe that they are smaller than your potential. Other people have struggled with something similar and I see how they have overcome it, what mistakes they made along the way, what BS they fell for, and what you need to do differently. Because of that, I know exactly what to do. Plus I have my own interesting ideas. Don't ever doubt that.

    I also have an eye on what is currently evolving within the space and what's possible within that. I also think about what possibilities might evolve in the future both within and outside that space and how you might fit in there. So with all that in mind, I believe in your potential and ability to do this.

    But if that's not enough, I need to know if you still disagree with me. I will not stick around to convince you until the end of time. We can have multiple discussion sessions and I will be fully engaged then, but I need to see at some point that you are on the same page as I am. If you are not there by then, I don't think you will ever get there."


    4D Ne also sees when potential is going to go south. But that wasn't the context of my advice. Maybe I will cover that later.
    Last edited by Audacious; 10-26-2021 at 05:43 PM.

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    No Chill 🔥 Noir's Avatar
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    @Audacious
    You just gave a demonstration of what defensive version of Ne PolR looks like.
    No.
    Last edited by Noir; 10-29-2021 at 06:51 PM.
    Life knocked my dick in the dirt
    I got back up, flipped it the bird

    Not to mention, I learned
    How to turn resentment and hurt
    To an unquenchable thirst, in the simplest terms
    But all you see is the fame and the millions
    You don't see the strength and resilience

    I make it look easy
    But you don't see the dark side
    And all of the monsters I had to fight
    And all of the nightmares
    Made me stronger than life

    ESI-Se
    (but innovative / unconventional)
    Enneagram: No Match | AP: No Match | MBTI: Garbage


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    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post
    I think this is because nature designed ESI to separate people into "my people" and "not my people."
    That's an "Aristocratic" trait while ESI are democratic, as is the entire Gamma quadrant. You sure you aren't mistaking ESI for some other type?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    That's an "Aristocratic" trait while ESI are democratic, as is the entire Gamma quadrant. You sure you aren't mistaking ESI for some other type?
    No, although ESI is democratic, ESI is also wired in this weird way.



    https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index....ile_by_Gulenko

    At first acquaintance sharply divides people into two categories - "his own" and "others". Others mostly cease to exist for him, but to his own he becomes deeply attached. He is often sharp and uncompromising with strangers, but forgives a lot for those who are in his inner circle. Demonstrates his attitude towards someone by managing psychological distance, first distancing a person, then bringing them closer.

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    No Chill 🔥 Noir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post


    No, although ESI is democratic, ESI is also wired in this weird way.



    https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index....ngelFireWolf69

    At first acquaintance sharply divides people into two categories - "his own" and "others". Others mostly cease to exist for him, but to his own he becomes deeply attached. He is often sharp and uncompromising with strangers, but forgives a lot for those who are in his inner circle. Demonstrates his attitude towards someone by managing psychological distance, first distancing a person, then bringing them closer.
    “There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs, but you do not have permission to create this page.”
    Life knocked my dick in the dirt
    I got back up, flipped it the bird

    Not to mention, I learned
    How to turn resentment and hurt
    To an unquenchable thirst, in the simplest terms
    But all you see is the fame and the millions
    You don't see the strength and resilience

    I make it look easy
    But you don't see the dark side
    And all of the monsters I had to fight
    And all of the nightmares
    Made me stronger than life

    ESI-Se
    (but innovative / unconventional)
    Enneagram: No Match | AP: No Match | MBTI: Garbage


  16. #16
    No Chill 🔥 Noir's Avatar
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    As usual, I will only speak for myself. I don't want it to come off as though I'm acting like I'm 'the archetypal ESI by which all descriptions of ESIs are compared to' when I speak on whether something is accurate for me personally. I speak with “me/I, as one ESI,” rather than “ESIs in general” only because I feel uncomfortable saying “Yes, I'm this way, so ESIs are this way” and can't speak for others. I'm merely offering my one firsthand perspective and single vote to be considered along with the feedback of others. With that clarified to avoid misunderstandings…

    I see my close connections as “my people.” It ties in with the sense of close connection that I have with them, not aristocracy. It's not based upon categorization, it's based upon intimacy levels. It's those I feel closely connected to, and thus protective of, loyal to, and so on.

    @Milo I do think that's a good point though, and something to keep in mind if typing.
    Last edited by Noir; 10-29-2021 at 06:51 PM.
    Life knocked my dick in the dirt
    I got back up, flipped it the bird

    Not to mention, I learned
    How to turn resentment and hurt
    To an unquenchable thirst, in the simplest terms
    But all you see is the fame and the millions
    You don't see the strength and resilience

    I make it look easy
    But you don't see the dark side
    And all of the monsters I had to fight
    And all of the nightmares
    Made me stronger than life

    ESI-Se
    (but innovative / unconventional)
    Enneagram: No Match | AP: No Match | MBTI: Garbage


  17. #17
    Too lazy to write much qaz00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire View Post
    “There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs, but you do not have permission to create this page.”
    Change DarkAngelFireWolf69 to Gul(remove)enko in the link. Easter eggs are fun, but this one is too frequent and makes the forum unprofessional, consider removing it @mu4

  18. #18
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    That's an "Aristocratic" trait while ESI are democratic, as is the entire Gamma quadrant. You sure you aren't mistaking ESI for some other type?
    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post


    No, although ESI is democratic, ESI is also wired in this weird way.



    https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index....ile_by_Gulenko

    At first acquaintance sharply divides people into two categories - "his own" and "others". Others mostly cease to exist for him, but to his own he becomes deeply attached. He is often sharp and uncompromising with strangers, but forgives a lot for those who are in his inner circle. Demonstrates his attitude towards someone by managing psychological distance, first distancing a person, then bringing them closer.
    I believe that the interpretation of ESIs as dividing people into "his own" and "others" is an error on the part of Gulenko due to his Fi blindness and the fact that he's sitting on the side of the table with opposite values and isn't naturally attuned to Gamma values.

    Instead, I believe what Strat said, which was that ESIs divide the world into groups which are either "for" them or are "against" them, in the sense that ESIs are mainly concerned with whether or not a person is going to cause them moral problems in the future. Because ethical Fi is their main program for interpreting the world and Ne and Ni are areas of weakness, and their Se "push" serves the Fi.

    So ESIs can be adamant about their ethical stands (you see that in the posts above) and really do ignore other people's viewpoints. I can't tell you how many times an ESI has told me "You don't know me. You don't know what I'm thinking." Lol. Right. You're the only person in the world who thinks your thoughts, and I'm simply not capable of understanding them. Of course. (This is sarcasm, if you can't tell.)

    ESIs aren't wired any differently than any other Gamma. You just have to strip the definitions down to the exact truth to see this.

  19. #19
    No Chill 🔥 Noir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Instead, I believe what Strat said, which was that ESIs divide the world into groups which are either "for" them or are "against" them, in the sense that ESIs are mainly concerned with whether or not a person is going to cause them moral problems in the future. Because ethical Fi is their main program for interpreting the world and Ne and Ni are areas of weakness, and their Se "push" serves the Fi.
    Too black and white. If you know psychology/the DSM, etc…this is actually how “splitting” in narcissism works. It's not a normal, healthy way of seeing the world.

    I evaluate whether a person is a threat to me/others based on what their character is like, but that's about it.

    I can't tell you how many times an ESI has told me "You don't know me. You don't know what I'm thinking." Lol. Right. You're the only person in the world who thinks your thoughts, and I'm simply not capable of understanding them. Of course. (This is sarcasm, if you can't tell.)
    What's the context for this?
    Life knocked my dick in the dirt
    I got back up, flipped it the bird

    Not to mention, I learned
    How to turn resentment and hurt
    To an unquenchable thirst, in the simplest terms
    But all you see is the fame and the millions
    You don't see the strength and resilience

    I make it look easy
    But you don't see the dark side
    And all of the monsters I had to fight
    And all of the nightmares
    Made me stronger than life

    ESI-Se
    (but innovative / unconventional)
    Enneagram: No Match | AP: No Match | MBTI: Garbage


  20. #20
    No Chill 🔥 Noir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    So ESIs can be adamant about their ethical stands (you see that in the posts above) and really do ignore other people's viewpoints.
    Btw, I did originally ask for more clarity to try to understand their viewpoint. When I was ignored by them (skipped over while they only responded to others on this thread) rather than them explaining, I was uncertain and then edited the info out of my post and moved on. So I don't exactly appreciate this.
    Life knocked my dick in the dirt
    I got back up, flipped it the bird

    Not to mention, I learned
    How to turn resentment and hurt
    To an unquenchable thirst, in the simplest terms
    But all you see is the fame and the millions
    You don't see the strength and resilience

    I make it look easy
    But you don't see the dark side
    And all of the monsters I had to fight
    And all of the nightmares
    Made me stronger than life

    ESI-Se
    (but innovative / unconventional)
    Enneagram: No Match | AP: No Match | MBTI: Garbage


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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire View Post
    Btw, I did originally ask for more clarity to try to understand their viewpoint. When I was ignored by them (skipped over while they only responded to others on this thread) rather than them explaining, I was uncertain and then edited the info out of my post and moved on. So I don't exactly appreciate this.

    It takes a lot of focus for me to reply to some of these posts, and I don't always have the time or the energy to make a decent reply. And sometimes I forget altogether.

    I'll try to answer your question tomorrow.

  22. #22
    No Chill 🔥 Noir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It takes a lot of focus for me to reply to some of these posts, and I don't always have the time or the energy to make a decent reply. And sometimes I forget altogether.

    I'll try to answer your question tomorrow.
    The question was to Audacious. I wanted to know why they saw it as being defensive in response to Ne PoLR.
    Life knocked my dick in the dirt
    I got back up, flipped it the bird

    Not to mention, I learned
    How to turn resentment and hurt
    To an unquenchable thirst, in the simplest terms
    But all you see is the fame and the millions
    You don't see the strength and resilience

    I make it look easy
    But you don't see the dark side
    And all of the monsters I had to fight
    And all of the nightmares
    Made me stronger than life

    ESI-Se
    (but innovative / unconventional)
    Enneagram: No Match | AP: No Match | MBTI: Garbage


  23. #23
    serenaeva's Avatar
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    Some of these duality descriptions are a little caricatural (ESI cannot make complex plans to save their life) but overall fine, i guess. I want to know that i can rely on a man to have a vision for the future and/or get things done in general in order to feel secure. Perfectly flows into archetypal gender roles.
    I AM YOUR HOLY TOTEM
    I AM YOUR SICK TABOO
    RADICAL AND RADIANT
    I'M YOUR NIGHTMARE COMING TRUE

    I AM YOUR WORST ENEMY
    I AM YOUR DEAREST FRIEND
    MALIGNANTLY MALEVOLENT
    I AM OF DIVINE DESCENT


    I AM YOUR UNCONSCIOUSNESS
    I AM UNRESTRAINED EXCESS
    METAMORPHIC RESTLESSNESS
    I'M YOUR UNEXPECTEDNESS

    I AM YOUR APOCALYPSE
    I AM YOUR BELIEF UNWROUGHT
    MONOLITHIC JUGGERNAUT

    STRAY BULLET
    FROM THE HEAVENS ABOVE
    STRAY BULLET
    READY OR NOT
    I'M THE ILLEGITIMATE SON OF GOD


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I believe that the interpretation of ESIs as dividing people into "his own" and "others" is an error on the part of Gulenko due to his Fi blindness and the fact that he's sitting on the side of the table with opposite values and isn't naturally attuned to Gamma values.

    Instead, I believe what Strat said, which was that ESIs divide the world into groups which are either "for" them or are "against" them, in the sense that ESIs are mainly concerned with whether or not a person is going to cause them moral problems in the future. Because ethical Fi is their main program for interpreting the world and Ne and Ni are areas of weakness, and their Se "push" serves the Fi.

    ESIs aren't wired any differently than any other Gamma. You just have to strip the definitions down to the exact truth to see this.

    Adam, THAT makes sense. Now that you mentioned this, I have a few things to add.

    ESIs will see nuances of "for and against them" differently, based on other personality factors such as DCNH, base/creative subtypes, and Enneagram. This manifests in many different ways based on the person.

    In this post, I will talk about one such manifestation.


    Status-seeking ESIs: Enneagram core/fix of 3w4 & 4w3

    Some ESI's, especially Enneagram (3w4 and 4w3) categorize people as someone who enhances their social status (for them) and who detracts from it (against them). There are levels of enhancement or detraction, of course, and they know this. This evaluation system is especially noticeable when they are younger (under 25 usually but sometimes under 30) because their disposable income is spent on visible symbols of status. They don't have kids, so it is easier to spend on themselves.


    How to detect them


    Such people might be categorized as ESFPs in Myers Briggs. But you can see their introversion through their introverted (closed-off) visuals.

    You can tell who they are by how much psychological distance they show through their body language, both in person and in photos. They dress well and maintain their bodies, of course. But there's something else that is quite noticeable about them.

    They distance themselves from the camera subtly either using their whole body or through their facial expressions while simultaneously communicating, "admire me" through their external status symbols (body, clothes, background). That mixed message usually communicates that in the meritocracy of status, they are above others. They are consistently earning that place by reminding you of their social status. They reinforce that distance through displays of status on social media.

    Those ESIs usually won't make an exception for someone whose external status or body language is mediocre, but they will do it without a second thought if you know how to help them fulfill their dreams or if you are a go-getter. Put simply, you can help with the things they don't discuss in public.


    Their motivation

    The person who is "for them" is the one who understands that external AND internal status REALLY matters to them. The person against them is the one who tries to make them choose a lesser, safer life path. However, external symbols of status are not the end game in itself. And they know this deep down, but they struggle to create a path for it. So they do the thing that's obvious to them.

    That's where LIE comes in.


    Hypothetical situation.

    Let's assume one status-seeking ESI has big dreams, but spends a lot on a few status symbols. I noticed that status displaying ESI men spend a LOT on clothes, cars, and shoes. And other things. Two LIEs are giving them advice -

    - One LIE redefines external status in the context of their goals and gives them a completely different plan: "eat dirt for 10 years. Ignore the status symbols because they are not investments. They will be worthless 10 years from now. Spend less. If your friends hate it, find new friends. Do X Y and Z consistently and you'll get to your goal. Until then, reinvest everything back into your goal. When you finally hit your target, buy whatever you want. I think you can do this, but without that 10 years of persistence, you are simply not going to get there."

    - The other LIE (usually Normalizing) redefines the ceiling of their potential: this LIE encourages them to apply for some average dream-killing jobs because that's what the LIE thinks that particular ESI can reasonably attain in life. They try their best to hook them up with said jobs and negotiate for good pay. They tell them that those jobs are great for them and that's what they can reasonably get with their skills.

    On the surface, you would think they would hate the first LIE because getting rid of status symbols is an instant NO. But they don't. It takes them a little while to come around, but once they do, those ESIs will see the first LIE as someone who is "for them" because they are blunt about the truth. They are rooting for them, but won't lie to them. That honesty combined with belief in them wins them over. But if those ESIs only have access to the second LIE, they feel incredibly stuck.

    ESIs fundamentally understand and value persistence. So if the first LIE says, "yes your goal must stay, but your path must change radically because your current actions wont get you there," this person is clearly for them. If the second LIE says, "scale down your goals because I see you as less than you see yourself," this person is against them.

    They won't do every single thing the first LIE says, but they see that the person is clearly in their camp. So they will take a lot of their advice seriously.

    This is a lot more complex than I'm describing because sometimes people's goals are unreasonable but I'm going to limit it to this for now.




    About normalizing types in general

    Normalizing types in general have an envious streak that traps me sometimes. They refuse to see your entire value or potential even if they have strong Ne. If they see it and acknowledge it, then their urge to help you grow hurts their own self-perception or status. That is incredibly painful for them. They are following the rules of society. For example, LIE-N will get promotions WAY faster than others, but they won't take risks in their career, nor will they take the fall. The larger burden of responsibility almost always sits on someone else's shoulders. All their pseudo-rebellious activity is saved for their social life.

    Because they think that way, they are upset by someone who dares to aim high and skip ahead. They think, "No you fucking loser, you can't get ahead of me." That person needs to be dragged down, but because LIE is Te base, they will give them something productive to do - "a reasonable job for your existing skillset."

    I suspect that big goals from "lower status people" infuriates them, except when Dominant types do it. And although D-N are duals, Dominant types aren't allowed an easy pass. They have to consistently push past Normalizing efforts to get there. Eventually, Normalizing subtype starts seeing Dominant as the person who pushes past AND pushes FOR them. Until that happens, they give them a lot of subtle hell.


    How to deal with Normalizing subtypes


    To deal with difficult Normalizing people, you should casually talk about the things you have accomplished in the past. By giving them access to your backstory, they see a bigger picture and who you are. This helps them put you in the context of the rulebook they carry around. Sometimes, you can send them your LinkedIn profile or your resume and "ask for feedback." Other times, you can send them an article you wrote. Or you can just chat with them about interesting events from your past while casually showing off what you are capable of doing.

    If you are interacting with them outside career context, then just replace my examples with something equivalent. You can also do this by flat out stating your goals and not budging. They will sputter or ignore you, but if you stay consistent, they fall in line eventually. Sometimes they need to see that other people approve of you before they are willing to engage with you on the level you want.

    You need to reorient them by showing where you actually stand in the hierarchy they perceive. In their internal hierarchy, you should never accept their placement of you as final or you will stagnate for a LONG time.
    Last edited by Audacious; 11-01-2021 at 08:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    The question was to Audacious. I wanted to know why they saw it as being defensive in response to Ne PoLR.
    I will respond to you later. I need some time to think about this.

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    Default LIE's 1D Si

    LIE's 1D Si

    There are a few different ways LIE's 1D Si manifests.


    Data vs wellbeing

    LIE can mistake (4D Te) externally collected data or absence of external data for (1D Si) physical wellbeing of either a person or an object. Data collection itself can be incredibly useful. Sometimes that data is correct in which case things work out. But other times they miss incredibly important information by not being aware of their own internal physical states. What do you do when data can't be collected? Stop taking care of yourself? Stop taking care of your things?

    When a situation becomes overwhelming, they will finally notice something is wrong. And even then, they feel the urge to either ignore it, obsess over it by researching it, or try some shortcuts. Long term failure here forces LIE to overcome innate resistance and teaches them to prioritize this part of their life.


    Missing the baseline

    Because LIE doesn't routinely evaluate and analyze the baseline of their own internal states, it's easier to sway them into doing something that's unhealthy for them. If ESI sees this happening, they should feel free to step in and block that happening. There are 4 levels of doing.

    1) Take over Si from the beginning. Then LIE has to go through you. The opportunity to screw up simply doesn't present itself.
    2) Tell them that won't do. Ask them if they can choose something else. Give them options.
    3) If they are struggling to say no to someone, help them figure out what to say.
    4) Step in and reject the source yourself.


    Prioritize goals over wellbeing to support others

    LIE will also prioritize other people's needs (moods, life) instead of their own if the other person seems desperate. In doing so, LIE's wellbeing takes a direct hit. But they don't notice this until their situation becomes desperate. For example, one LIE might smoke or drink excessively to cope with their loved one's emotional instability. They know on a literal level that smoking/drinking is bad for you. They also know that they need to quit. But how? Not just specific techniques which they can find, but moment to moment internal rebalancing. How do you do that? And how do you manage that in the context of relationships? Who should you push away and who gets to stay?

    LIE needs to learn that deteriorating for other people is not a reasonable option because it is killing their own growth. Outwardly, they might not notice it because at least some parts of their life are functioning well (work, for example). But the complete synthesis of their life is malfunctioning.

    ESI doesn't tolerate this well. ESI values forward motion like LIE, but is also incredibly good at creating internal harmony. LIE needs someone like that. LIE doesn't want someone who will shut off their engine and tell them to stagnate for the rest of time. (LIE fears this). Which is why ESI can help them.

    ESI's 1D Te helps here because LIE can maintain some level of control by researching, evaluating, and learning things. They can also create or modify a broader plan of action. This makes them feel like they are not giving in completely. So it makes it easier to receive help. This is true even if the ESI in question has advanced degrees or is incredibly talented in their field.


    Maximizing Si by Te + Ni

    When LIE starts a plan and finds all the necessary stuff to get it going, they can go on a maximizing spree. "I'm going to optimize every part of it so that I get the highest amount of benefit I can reasonably get." The interesting thing here is that LIE genuinely believes they are being reasonable. But if they keep that up, they inevitably end up hurt in ways they couldn't have predicted.

    For example, instead of saying no to a doctor offering to do something uncomfortable or unsafe, they will take up the offer because it is more cost effective to do it now than later. Being a positivist type with Ni valuing, they see some problems right away, but not the whole scope of them. There is a bias towards "it will work out." Sometimes it works out. But sometimes it is simply unnecessary. And that unnecessary thing can have repercussions they simply did not predict.


    Can LIE prioritize Si?

    Until they reach some level of failure (even a continuous small one) and see its impact on their life, they won't be willing to make changes. What's worse is that the immature LIEs will try to cut these activities out of other people's lives because they are "a waste of time."

    If you simply say, "it makes me feel better" or "I like the way it feels" LIE is too thickheaded to understand that on a deeper level. Not because LIE is unintelligent, but because LIE has weak Si. They can't visualize such statements by relating to it. They can try, they may even agree superficially, but if you want it to stick, it needs to be related to something they actually understand.

    In such situations, they are only persuaded by one thing. They need to know how maintaining wellbeing of a person/object directly contributes to the bottom-line or to momentum of their intended goal, project, or relationship.

    LIE is also impressed by people who use their internal physical wellbeing to increase their life's momentum. If they see such a person showing up and succeeding consistently, they will ask, "hey how do you X? I noticed that you are better than others at X. What are you doing differently?"

    At that point, if someone tells them about Si stuff they will consider it. They will try it with enthusiasm and abandon the project quickly because what they really need is for someone to help them by taking it over. When you start doing things on your own, you usually don't have that support.

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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    I've been thinking about my relationships with ESI Duals recently. I know at least 19 ESIs; 8 females and 11 males. Some of those males are very good friends, and some are acquaintances. Some of the women I have dated with serious intentions, and some are just women whom I know.

    One of my early experiences with a male ESI friend somehow went wrong and we didn't talk for many years, and then I ran into him in a Kroger store and it was like we were still best buddies.
    He seems somehow to be similar to the female ESI that I was dating recently. We started getting close, then she pulled back and I said "Call me when you want to go out again" and she hasn't called me.

    On the other hand, I have a male and a female ESI in my life right now who are good friends and I don't see that ever changing.

    What the hell is the difference? Is it something I might be able to see before I invest a couple years in a relationship? I think that other people might be able to tell the difference right away, but for some reason, I can't.

    The problem, for certain, isn't related to Duality, because that part of the equation is good in all cases.

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    This duality sounds bizarre to me, nothing is registering. Where is the romance and urgency and power of immediate and encompassing connection that is each day renewed with energy? I don't see anything here for me. Therefore, I don't belong here, and that's okay.

    And if its not romantic duality, then what do these words written even do or help with or make me feel completed with that missing information that my mind so called needs?

    See the thing about Fi is that its always looking at what brings the phenomenon closer to oneself. How are you making me believe in it? How are you making my doubts go away? How are we moving one step closer? And how are we doing that day in and out? Is there room for breaks in there that make it all the more urgent when we do get back together? What makes this all worth it?

    Like I said, nothing in gamma quadra has ever really registered for me. Nothing on this site, besides a few members, have ever made me feel like this is the place I belong. Therefore I just say whatever, whenever and in that sense it makes this place an interactive journal.

    Carry on gammas. Sorry for the interruption.

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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    This duality sounds bizarre to me, nothing is registering. Where is the romance and urgency and power of immediate and encompassing connection that is each day renewed with energy? I don't see anything here for me. Therefore, I don't belong here, and that's okay.

    And if its not romantic duality, then what do these words written even do or help with or make me feel completed with that missing information that my mind so called needs?

    See the thing about Fi is that its always looking at what brings the phenomenon closer to oneself. How are you making me believe in it? How are you making my doubts go away? How are we moving one step closer? And how are we doing that day in and out? Is there room for breaks in there that make it all the more urgent when we do get back together? What makes this all worth it?

    Like I said, nothing in gamma quadra has ever really registered for me. Nothing on this site, besides a few members, have ever made me feel like this is the place I belong. Therefore I just say whatever, whenever and in that sense it makes this place an interactive journal.

    Carry on gammas. Sorry for the interruption.
    How are we moving together every day, @timber? Where is the power of immediate and encompassing connection?

    Where, indeed?

    Today the lesbian ESI-Se decorator showed up for work in a pair of Carhartt bib overalls and not much else.
    ”Ta Da!”, she said. “I’m here!”
    I said, “Great! Let’s get to work!”
    She turned sideways and you know, I realize that she’s a lesbian but she’s also a woman and I started to have the usual reaction that a man might have when little is left to the imagination and she looked at me and said “It’s kind of cold in here. I think I’ll get a sweater from my car.”
    And so she did. And put it on. And then we had a very productive work session.

    I try to treat her like a guy, but I sometimes fail at this.
    I blame the internet, and my being the product of 4.5 billion years of unbroken reproduction.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 11-08-2021 at 01:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    How are we moving together every day, @timber? Where is the power of immediate and encompassing connection?

    Where, indeed?

    Today the lesbian ESI-Se decorator showed up for work in a pair of Carhartt bib overalls and not much else.
    ”Ta Da!”, she said. “I’m here!”
    I said, “Great! Let’s get to work!”
    She turned sideways and you know, I realize that she’s a lesbian but she’s also a woman and I started to have the usual reaction that a man might have when little is left to the imagination and she looked at me and said “It’s kind of cold in here. I think I’ll get a sweater from my car.”
    And so she did. And put it on. And then we had a very productive work session.

    I try to treat her like a guy, but I sometimes fail at this.
    I blame the internet, and my being the product of 4.5 billion years of unbroken reproduction.
    Okay. This is how a quarter of porn movies start.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Okay. This is how a quarter of porn movies start.

    Is it? Maybe there's hope yet.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I've known her for ten years and this is actually the first time I've ever been turned on by her.

    I mean, She's beautiful and a great person, but I've never felt sexual towards her before, which might sound really weird, but it's true.

    I suspect she was just experimenting to find out something, but I don't know why.

    God, I hope I'm not getting desperate.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 11-08-2021 at 02:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ,.... not getting desperate.
    I'm not sure if you are asking me if you are or not, but I don't think it's desperate perse.

    It's just human and normal. Look this is public thread so I'm not going to hyper analyze this.

    I think more than anything its just a nice distraction, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    I'm not sure if you are asking me if you are or not, but I don't think it's desperate perse.

    It's just human and normal. Look this is public thread so I'm not going to hyper analyze this.

    I think more than anything its just a nice distraction, right?
    Yeah, it was better than many things she could have done. I don't actually think it was a big deal, but I related it here for exactly that reason. @timber, you were asking where the "one step closer" was. Well, she figured out that I'd probably get closer to her if she were serious. I guess that's one step closer.

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