SEE and contradictions

[Nicozeyo]

Hello guys,

In this thread, I would like to talk with you about a lovely and charming topic, these world's heroes unconditionally loved by everyone : the SEEs.

It seems to me that often SEEs doesn't like being contradicted. I had conversations with some SEEs in my life and something is common. When we disagree with them, there is an odd sensation that seems to ran through them. Like a creeping frustration. An anger. With time, I had occasions to heard some explanations (always given after the moment in question) that they would have wanted to be "more listened to" or "more understood".

But, there is something weird in this. I mean, I could believe it because everyone want to be listened to and understood but there is a coincidence. When everything goes like they wanted, it was fine, it was perfect. But when things didn't go as they wanted, it was "I would have wanted to be more listened to to and understood." Of course, there is probably truth in that. There was conversations when indeed they weren't listened to or understood. But all conversations? I don't think so. And yet, this complaint seems to rise very frequently.

So... I made some research to see what I could find. Socionics "experts" wrote about this :

The SEE is very sensitive towards criticism of his errors and mistakes, [...].

He heavily suffers, and thus negatively reacts to, criticisms from others, especially if the discussion deals with his weak logical ability, randomness of activities and ill-considered nature of decisions. Sometimes the SEE will seek to get rid of the coworker whom, to him, is disposed towards excessive criticism.

The SEE becomes irritated when he or she is being criticized for whims, illogical actions, when someone tries to figure out motivations for his behavior.

ESFps often react with aggression and hostility when others try to impose rules, limits or discipline on them. They also become very irritated when criticised for their caprices or illogical behaviour. They become equally irritated if someone attempts to question their behaviour or prove their irrationality.

My question is, how to deal with this specific behavior. SEEs, what would be a "good" reaction to you when someone disagree with your opinion(s) ? What is for you direspectful and what is a sign that we care about you ?

There is many things that I would add but I keep it for later.

To be honest. I just want to read some reactions about this. I would really like read SEEs answers because I love learn things about my dual and how make things right with them. Duality is I think awesome but it's also hard and need to work on ourselves. Of course, everyone experience with this thematic is valuable.

[Armitage]

The sensitivity towards criticism comes from their Fi, I believe. But feeling not listened to whenever they don't get their way might stem from their Fi replacing their Ti-polr. They can't really express their thoughts that coherently, and therefore other people might think of their ideas as not to useful when compared to the ideas of others. The SEE might then Fi-feel misunderstood, and believe this due to the other not listening to them, whereas it might actually have been due to them explaining themselves not too well. I think as an ILI it's your task to make sense out of the jumbled mess that the SEE speaks, refine, and polish it, so that the SEE's ideas are actually received by others the way that the SEE intended. And that they then finally feel listened to, because what they thought themselves was their idea finally matches with what is presented on the table. They just can't do it themselves, or at least not often.

The inability to handle other people's rules is I think instead a result of their primary Se, which means that they want to set the rules, instead of others setting the rules for them. The younger SEEs I have met tend in those cases tend to be known known as rebellious rabble rousers. More mature ones acquire patience through experience and react a lot calmer to rules, but still try to position themselves in a way that they create the rules, or oversee their adherence. At the very least they'll try to position themselves in such a way that they'll be more free and less constrained by the rules. Freedom is very important to them.

[Toro]

Braking Function +L — Structural Logic
He does not like it very much when others do not take into account his
conclusions on this or that situation or problem. He considers those who
ignore his remarks to be ill-wishers. SEE depends on an established order
in the area where he lives or works. He complains of a lack of discipline
and lack of organization, although he can’t provide it himself because he
does not want to spoil relationships and can’t work methodically. He
accepts existing hierarchy. He typically communicates either from a
position from below, as a subordinate, or from a position from above, as a
boss. With subordinates, there is no ceremony. He can’t stand to be near
people who are antipathetic to him and does everything he can in order to
get away from them. He does not know by what system he acts.

The SEE is not aware of the system in which he operates, they think that Ti arguments are personal criticisms and take them personally.

Napoleon tends to form a big picture of what is happening, which is more important to him than the details. First of all, he thinks about the causes of what is happening, and then about the consequences. Strives at every moment to understand what is happening and why. He considers this a guarantee of maintaining his authority. He does not believe that there are uniform logical laws in the world that can be used to prove the truth and falsity of a statement. He tends to contradict the generally accepted formal logic, creates his own system of values, which is based on alternative patterns. Information about causes and patterns is not pleasant and is used only to the extent necessary for survival.

This is another example of Ti PoLR getting in the way of Fi creative.

The individual has a tendency to either completely reject or completely embrace a source of theoretical knowledge, but does not like to reveal the source or his adherence to it.
He prefers to limit the number of theoretical categories he works with and tends to see new terminology, systems, and rules as being arbitrary and unnecessary until he at last discovers their necessity for himself through extensive personal experience.
He may be able to express his views clearly when given the time, but he is not prepared to deal with people who challenge his views and draw him into logical arguments and disputes. For this reason, he is reluctant to publicize new determinations and opinions until he is absolutely sure that they are right and that he can support them thoroughly to anyone who challenges them.

Me quoting these sources are an example of me trying to compensate for Ti PoLR I think. I don't use my own logic and I am reluctant to make any determinations myself and prefer to search for sources on the subject. I suspect SEEs who gain an interest in socionics are well aware of their Ti PoLR and find ways around it.

I think SEEs tend to try to leapfrog over the rules using their special connections within an organization. A SEE won't submit to Ti blocked with Ne, since it seems so arbitrary.

When an SEE is told to listen to these theoretical rules rather than what they can see in front of their face and feel in their heart, well, it's not going to be pretty.

Something I don't agree with and think these descriptions are slightly misleading is that SEE will not react negatively when their actions are shown to be illogical since they will likely listen to more time-efficient ways to do something. But if you tell an SEE to not do what they want because of some theoretical reason, it won't get you anywhere. These arguments are pointless to SEE.

[Tarnished]

Told a SEE what to do/ not to do isn’t gonna work. Warn them if you did qwe then there are a chance you get zxc and let them make the choice their own. If they don’t listen and fail, good, prepare to laugh on their face and tease them to death.

It’s more about how the SEE trust you personally, not much about how you are right or wrong with the logical thing you said. Make their Ni build a pattern of trusting you.

[Vis]

From what I read, SEE and ILI relation is not straightforward. Competitions, obstacles, other options, and audience are quite necessary to make each party show their best self (therefore less temper tantrum). IEE - SLI relation has a similar dynamic (more leaning on having other options than competing to be the best).

How to deal with this behavior: if it's family, you let them suffer the natural consequences and then tell them what went wrong when they ask you. If it's not family, hopefully you don't just choose one out of loneliness. Choose the best who can also make you a better person.

[Armitage]

Something I don't agree with and think these descriptions are slightly misleading is that SEE will not react negatively when their actions are shown to be illogical since they will likely listen to more time-efficient ways to do something. But if you tell an SEE to not do what they want because of some theoretical reason, it won't get you anywhere. These arguments are pointless to SEE.

This is in my opinion the difference between Te-advice of how to improve one's method to gain more results faster, versus some abstract Ti-theorizing without a firm footing in reality.

[Vis]

Additional thoughts: If the SEE didn't follow your advice and did not suffer natural consequence. It could mean they got lucky or you are wrong. Yes you can be wrong.

SEEs start to trust you based on both your right advice/actions and that you can see and praise their strengths (it's not hard to find, as they always strive to be the best at everything. And as you build your own Se skills, you will start to see the value of Se competency in others).

They can change, but not because of your advice, only because their Ni perceived the long term cause of something and they decided to change on their own. They may or may not remember that you reminded them of that in the first place. But don't worry. They will always remember to give you plenty of credits and praise you on your strengths because that's what they like to get.

If they are making a serious mistake at a crucial moment, do not hesitate and assert your will to get things right. This would be inappropriate if you are not working together to achieve things. So in order to have a constructive and healthy relation, you should work together on something.

To be fair, both SEE and ILI can be insufferable idiots if they are too comfortable with their life, if they are not trying to impress others in order to achieve a higher goal. This can be as shallow or as deep as the goal. It's shallow if you do it for money or people's praise (the world will burn you if you only do things for selfish reasons); it's meaningful if you want to make real changes to the world and people's life. To make changes to some place, you'd better find a way to impress everyone from top leaders to entry interns. This is much more peaceful than some other type's methods.

Gamma duals are not about warm and fuzzy feelings or even companionship. To fulfill their true potentials, they need to work together to achieve the mission impossible. And they will become less shallow, less selfish, more understanding, better people in the process.

[timber]

Your criticisms means (to them) you don't like them and therefore they don't like you. Fi isn't hard to understand. This extends to mutual friends and acquaintances. If you criticize them (and therefore the Fi bond between SEE and them), then SEE also doesn't like you.

Doesn't anyone wonder what is meant by the saying ENTj and ESTj are swayed by the opinions of their friends towards people? This is what valued, low dimensional Fi behaves like.

The work around is to never denigrate the ego of the SEE, while simultaneously "suggesting" what could be done, some action, instead. Its all about positively working WITH the ego. Se is noticing these power dynamics anyway and will appreciate the dry Te with perceived inner calm. Stick to the facts of doing. (Te is all about doing, which is often heavily overlooked in this community).

[Dreymagine]

I'm pretty sure my Dad is an SEE, and it's wisest to not express disagreement / criticism around him unless it's constructive and absolutely necessary. Generally speaking, voicing disagreements with his decisions makes him feel like you don't support him, and people bickering/debating over unnecessary things really annoys him (regardless of whether he's involved in the argument). I don't think the latter was always the case, but in recent years he's begun to find pointless conflicts to be tiring or even exhausting.

[Vis]

I'm pretty sure my Dad is an SEE, and it's wisest to not express disagreement / criticism around him unless it's constructive and absolutely necessary. Generally speaking, voicing disagreements with his decisions makes him feel like you don't support him, and people bickering/debating over unnecessary things really annoys him (regardless of whether he's involved in the argument). I don't think the latter was always the case, but in recent years he's begun to find pointless conflicts to be tiring or even exhausting.

Tough to have supervisor as dad. I've seen SEE and EII going on trips together twice. Both times they stopped talking to each other upon returning (why they decided to go on the second trip was puzzling)

[Dreymagine]

Tough to have supervisor as dad. I've seen SEE and EII going on trips together twice. Both times they stopped talking to each other upon returning (why they decided to go on the second trip was puzzling)

Idk, I don't think it's that tough to have him as a Dad. (Though, it was tough to have him as a basketball coach for quite a while.) I'd say we have a healthy relationship, and we've certainly never stopped talking to each other—at least, not for more than a few hours, just to cool down after a particularly bad argument. (I mean, we've gone much longer than a few hours without talking before, but that lack of communication was the natural result of circumstances, not some angry/bitter refusal to speak to one another.)

I think supervision relations aren't necessarily as bad as they're made out to be. My Mom is probably an EII as well, and they've had a long-lasting/healthy marriage thus far.

(But I have pondered the possibility of my Mom being an ESI. And I've considered the possibility that my Dad is an ESE or LSE. So, there's a chance that I'm mistyping one/both parents and confusing our ITRs as a result. There's no way they'd ever take the time to fill out an entire typology questionnaire, but maybe I could ask them all of the questions over the course of a month-ish and then record/post their answers in order to get opinions on their typings.)

[Vis]

Yeah it's different with family or people you see everyday. You need to work out issues and can't avoid each other. Though I've seen supervision couples and you can sense the stronger/weaker dynamic (the supervisee is always suppressed somehow no matter how much the supervisor is trying to be kind and understanding).

The two I mentioned were just casual friends so they can go their separate ways. Also they met each other in adulthood and they are not used to this type of relation. I imagine If you grow up with it you might regard it as normal parent-child relationship

[lookin4waifu]

I completely agree that SEEs I’ve known initially often don’t respond well to contradiction, but I think healthy SEEs are able to debate with people they respect (or with those whom they believe hold enough respect for them). SEEs won’t turn down arguments that provide ample clear, concrete evidence. They are Te valuing and seeking. My advice is to be tactful and considerate of their feelings, while not emotionally invested when you deliver the information, as they are highly aware of any biasing and personal investment involved due to having strong Fi. Hard for us ILIs sometimes as the Fi HA can take a hold of us when we have a passionate opinion. Don’t be too cold or “stinging” in your affect, and frame it as a productive, useful conversation where you’re adding to their information base, rather than a debate where you’re just contradicting them with no positive outcome.

[lookin4waifu]

Tact is important, even as an Fe Polr. If you belittle someone in conversation or make them look stupid, anybody would be angry or frustrated, even if they don’t show it.

[crazymaisy]

If SEE is in good humor but being more quiet about that, a test to prove which state he's in is to say something tactless. If he reports back with more of that, owning it, self-deprecation, he's fine and dandy.

Of course if he's not fine, Mercury Rising.

[Nicozeyo]

In my first post, I said :

There is many things that I would add but I keep it for later.

So here I am again. I wanted to take the general opinion in a first time to make some kind of introduction. In this post, I want to make the discussion more specific. I think we all agree to say that SEE are sensitive about contradictions. It's a better idea to take things nicely when we have to go "against" them. I just used quotes because I never considered my disagreements with them to be fights. But, I feel like for them they were.

You know, I have known many SEEs in my life. Overall, I really love them. Obviously, there are downsides and one of them is this topic's subject. The reality of it is tangible for me. Maybe I will share some experiences later (a teaser again, i'm such a bad boy to tease everytime).

Some materials now :

The SEE periodically makes statements about need to proceed forward, to act immediately and decisively, to overcome any difficulties, etc. The ILI attentively listens to these “program” statements and relates to them with understanding, occasionally turning to the SEE for advice over this function: “Who is able? Who has the means?” The SEE shouldn’t be advised on this function; he will hardly tolerate this. Approaching him from the position of superiority may lead to competitive demonstrations from his side. Externally the ILI should follow the SEE in everything and submit to his will, while internally he may object and disagree. Main thing is to agree with everything that SEE says, following the principle: “Listen - but later do everything your own way.” When there is open verbal exchange of information on this channel, the ILI plays the role of the one who is being led.

It's interesting because it means that it's not about "communication" but about "power games". I don't know how Gulenko thought hard about this specific point but he was implying by writting those lines that SEEs do not accept discussion, at least, on Se. But you know... What is a "Se subject" and what is not ? It's very ambigious. The thing is that I think I agree with him.

The first thing that come to my mind after think about this whole thing is "maybe SEE do not mind disagree but mind when it's verbalized." To me it makes sense because their Te is more insecure than their Se. It could explain - according to Gulenko - they are "ok" with you doing things which with they disagree but are not "ok" with you saying things which with they disagree.

What is your opinion ?

[Tarnished]

Yeah, the whole point is don’t challenge an aggressor head on, that’s why their dual is victim.

My parents are both aggressor, they fight all the time. Both being very out loud when they get angry, straight up disagreeing with each other, and it’s just make they hate each other more and more.

Me is different. Like with my SEE dad, when he piss me of, my way of anger is more passive(aggressive?). I keep a cold face, talk less or keep silent to show “I’m pissing, don’t bother me”. So he has to be the one trying to cheer me up to bring me back to my normal state.

If it’s my mom, then there’s a high change to start a fight. Different ways of getting angry, different results.

[Nicozeyo]

My parents are both aggressor, they fight all the time. Both being very out loud when they get angry, straight up disagreeing with each other, and it’s just make they hate each other more and more.

Are they always together ? Seems like hell.

[Tarnished]

Are they always together ? Seems like hell.

Lucky they have their own business to care about.

[crazymaisy]

How often does a pairing of any types produce a dual to one of them as child ... My SEE hubby an ILI self made another ILI. Hmmm...

[Armitage]

“Who is able? Who has the means?”

To me these questions sound more like Ne, as in what is a person capable of? Ne-Ni also imagines the different potential outcomes of a situation when placing different people into the situation and imagining how it would play out. I do agree, though, that SEEs are very apt at knowing who is an expert in something and who to consult for the problem they attempt to solve. They are headstrong networkers, after all.

And yes, Se leads don't like outright disagreement when they already set a course on how to approach their goal. If you want to advise them, do so when they're still weighing their options to reach their goal. And don't give them the conclusion, but provide them the pros and cons of each alternative method, so they can make the choice themselves. They want to feel in power, that they are the decision maker. It's different with ESIs, because them I simply provide two, maybe three alternatives I preselected and tell them the pros and cons of each one. I make the preselection, they make the final decision. Anything more and they start feeling overwhelmed.

When I went to the national historical museum with my ESI-Se bicycle friend we went for lunch thereafter. I let him choose from the list I made of good restaurants in the city that I still want to try out. He picked a nice Mexican one nearby. When we arrived he asked me to get a seat for us, because he hasn't been at this place before, but I had neither. Anyway, I walked up to a waiter who told us who could simply sit down anywhere. I proposed to my friend a table at the canal, to which he agreed. Thereafter I left for the toilet, when I returned he had made up his mind about what dish he would take. He told me how difficult he finds it to make such a decision, to which I joked how it was good then that I was away for a bit, so he had time to choice. He explained that he always finds it hard to make a decision at the restaurant, even when there are only a few options on the menu like at this place. He wants to get the "right" dish. He said it might sound silly, because all the dishes are probably good and he wouldn't know what he would be missing out on, if he went for the second best dish instead of the best, but still he would like to get it right. He is so cute, such a pity he's straight. C'est la vie, he's a good friend and I'm happy to have him in my life as my friend.

[The Reality Denialist]

Hmm... I see that they prefer to juggle with people by making them parts of their chain of material flow. Their consistency can be quite contradictory in that business.

Example of SEE


Rules are ever changing with the exception of behaving according to a same pattern. Basically in case of Mr Beast: He will give you money no matter of what you do.

[Adam Strange]

How often does a pairing of any types produce a dual to one of them as child ... My SEE hubby an ILI self made another ILI. Hmmm...

“History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes.”

My last ESI GF was married to an SEE and they had an ILI son. I think the SEE’s mother might have been an ILI, but I’m less certain of that.

If you assume that a child’s sociotype is a complete roll of the dice, then two parents should produce one Dual child to one of them, one out of eight times.

It may be more likely that people produce Identicals. In my own family, my LSE & SLI parents produced an LIE, another LSE, and an LII.

I (an LIE) married an SLI, and we had an SLI son.

My EIE aunt and LSI uncle produced an EIE daughter and an IEI daughter. The EIE daughter married an LIE and they had an EIE daughter.