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Thread: What does dopamine have to do with types?

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    Tzuyu's Avatar
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    Default What does dopamine have to do with types?

    I stumbled across this paper, found it to be pretty interesting and skimmed through it.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6446569/

    "As homeostasis explains the functions of only a limited number of rewards, the principal reason why particular stimuli, objects, events, situations, and activities are rewarding may be due to pleasure. This applies first of all to sex and to the primary homeostatic rewards of food and liquid and extends to money, taste, beauty, social encounters and nonmaterial, internally set, and intrinsic rewards. Pleasure, as the primary effect of rewards, drives the prime reward functions of learning, approach behavior, and decision making and provides the basis for hedonic theories of reward function. We are attracted by most rewards and exert intense efforts to obtain them, just because they are enjoyable"

    What differentiates humans between animals is that we have an increased need to seek pleasure for the sake of pleasure and our nebulous definition of "pleasure," all related to our very unique dopamine systems that occurred from a chance mutation. This is the origination of Art, which I define as very broadly as any creative act for the sake of pleasure. The first man-ape that drummed a beat made Art, the first to draw shapes in mud made Art, or put on pieces of cloth or arrange food in a pleasing way. Humans aren't particularly special, we're just the first species to reach the Point of No Return, because the advancement of Art is exponential and being the first means we reaped our rewards. Our inventions and technologies can be said to originate from a loop between dopamine centers and being rewarded with material/social benefits while being able to capitulate on those past inventions and keep building on them. Art is the reason we have technology, language, humor, and aesthetics.

    The double-sided sword of this Promethean fire is that humans need pleasure and meaning in ways different than animals and when they don't get it they either go mad or self-medicate to get their needed "Purpose" and fulfillment. It's basically spiritual miasma and the cause of nonchemical depression. Some humans want a shortcut to fulfillment and will trample, steal, and set up unfair systems to exploit the Art of others, this is the origination of evil.

    Types came to be because we are all genetically wired so our Purpose is related to our ego. A SLI is coded to get a lot more dopamine from aesthetic pleasure and comfort than an LIE, so this becomes a self re-enforcing process that turn into neuro-structural comfort zones and an area of confidence which we term the "ego." So an SLI is more likely to be depressed if they can't receive or create Si than an LIE. An IEE does not get a lot of dopamine from Fe but they are still strong because they get dopamine from Fi, which requires Fe so they still develop the neural pathways for it as an unintended consequence.

    The 8 elements are what definitively constitute the entirety of our perception of reality and the split between all 8 is because without it we would all be bad at nothing and good at nothing as well; we would have no personality and just be empty. As for where the 8 elements came to be before humans could even perceive it - that's where the science stops and as a spiritual person I say it's honestly just pure magic and about as answerable as a question like why the first Big Bang occurred. We are conscious avatars for the universe who are looking at ourselves in a mirror and all the universe wants is more evolution, more madness, more magic-at an ever faster pace.




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    A bit of fun speculation.

    Art as extension of dopamine circuits though? I'm not buying that one. The rest I generally agree with and having nothing much to add.

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    Dopamine controls certains brain areas that correspond to certain Im elements. Some types use more of it than others.

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    Interesting theory. If I had to guess in terms of Socionics, probably the lead and the dual-seeking functions are the ones that release the most dopamine. The reason being that using the lead is the most comfortable state of mind and thus pleasurable, and on the other hand receiving/relieving the suggestive function is pleasurable due to how hard it is to relieve by oneself. But maybe my point of view is biased because Si is intrinsic to pleasure anyways

    However thinking about particular types, some types are probably more "dopamine-seeking" than others. LII and EII which are often quite ascetic come to mind. I suppose their threshold for pleasure is low (they get easily overwhelmed) so small, steady releases of dopamine work best for them. For EP types I'd say it's the opposite, they seek pleasure constantly and keep raising the bar if they lack self-control. So I guess it's related to Introversion/Extraversion and j/p too.

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    i'm a bit confused because what OP says, not the quote itself, contradicts the impressions i gathered about other highly intelligent animals.

    do dolphins care about pleasure for its own sake? bonobos? do chimps commit evils against each other? my answer to these questions, is yes. why? dolphins before humans ruined it (lol) achieved mastery of their way of life in which the time spent getting food and meeting survival needs was decreased - this comes hand-in-hand with higher brain power, which also means more curiosity/play. chimps murder for jealousy and political gain (so do monkeys) but it seems less innocent to me in chimps. monkeys after they have killed their last leader in some documentaries hover around staring at their corpse as though in their innocent little child ego minds they don't understand what has happened, what they have done. i don't get that impression watching documentaries about chimp violence... they know, they chose... sometimes a chimp elder will be the one to be most empathetic to the victim, but it's the wise old one who has seen this so many times and is past his prime so he doesn't have stakes in the game, and the younger males don't see him as a threat to their power. he knows why it happens but he can't stop it from happening again, but he can be with the one who has been mortally wounded until he dies, who sends the message "i understand."

    ahem another question, when a male lion defeats another and makes the death awful, often ripping off his reproductive organs, is there no emotion in that? no "i will conquer and destroy you utterly and make you understand you will never spread your seed again"? these things are old (we inherited them, and that's why we do a lot of these things, like we are born with it in our heads, the instincts of tooth and claw). they come into a new configuration in humanity though, i agree.

    aaaaah and what about the study with monkeys on one of the caribbean islands who would steal ppl's drinks? the study found they had the same percentages as humans... the same percentage of social drinkers of alcohol (drink in moderation, no binging), non-drinkers (would steal juice not alcohol), and horribly addicted alcoholic drinkers (and the horribly addicted monkeys would drink themselves to death). the study iirc showed no difference to humans. it was the same percentage of humans who become awful addicts and will kill themselves with it eventually (though they have more time - the monkeys are more vulnerable).

    i'm confused about saying the quest for pleasure and that for meaning are the same thing? they often are at cross-purposes. pleasure is easy; meaning is much more difficult.

    but anyway i'm all for not experimenting endlessly on animals to answer questions about humans. it's cowardice! jk.
    Last edited by inumbra; 10-04-2021 at 05:12 AM.

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    The level and direction of expression seems to vary within types. This in itself is more appropriate in the context of neurochemistry in subtypes.
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    @inumbra You're right in that animals do have personalities -- well, some kind of proto-personality but not in a Socionics sense, which I think of as some kind of event horizon of intelligence. There's something extremely distinct about humans and it 100% has to do with out brain chemistry, in particular the way our dopamine moves in the brain, which is why I focused on it so much. The other complex mammals have dopamine and experience pleasure, but there's something singularly unique in the way dopamine behaves in the human brain.

    "Compared with the other species tested, humans had markedly increased striatal dopamine activity. Among other functions, dopamine helps drive reward activity and social behaviors. In the striatum in particular it contributes to uniquely human abilities and behaviors like complicated social group formation and, in part, speech and language."

    If you want to read more on it, it really is interesting.
    https://www.science.org/content/arti...ver-other-apes

    Anyway, it really is interesting that the more intelligent a mammal is, the more they exhibit some classic Socionics personalities and "human" behaviors like art and play and complex social shenanigans. Dolphins are the closest animal to exhibiting this tendency, it's a type of convergent evolution and very strange indeed; I think it's a sign the universe is trying very hard at achieving something. That's why I don't think humans are particularly unique, we're just ahead of the game. If dolphins had our ability to record knowledge they could very well be "more human than humans". That's also why I think eating complex-social mammals is fucked (guilty meat eater) and once lab-grown meat comes out I will swear off other animals forever.




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    I think the original artwork was nature, and early humans learned to make art by mimicking what they saw in nature. This was probably augmented by simultaneous experimentation with psychoactive plants and fungi and the development of early spiritual systems. The desire to create and the desire to understand are, as I understand it, the same thing. I would posit that it all stems from an attempt to understand the magic seen in the natural world and through that understanding to then harness and subjugate it to human purposes. The world around us was so fickle. It gave and stole from us every day. Every natural phenomenon was mysterious and supernatural, and we took any chance we could get to try to comprehend that power so that maybe we could overcome it and become gods ourselves. We did whatever we could to aid in this and that included art. Maybe the power of a lightning bolt is somehow contained in its shape and could be harnessed somehow if we carved it into the hafts of our spears. Maybe if we painted bountiful hunts deep in the bowels of the earth She would somehow listen to this and grant us fortune so our children needn't starve that week. Maybe if we destroy the tribe of heathens up the river from us and scatter the imagery of their false gods and replace them with our own then our troubles might be lifted. There must be some way to overcome this famine, and that's the only thing we haven't tried yet.

    I think really art is a response to our fears, our anxieties, our hopes, and our sense of awe when faced with things so much bigger than us. The gods of nature are chaotic and temperamental, but by learning their language - the language of creation - perhaps we can become that little bit wiser to their wiles and suffer a little less than mere beasts. All art, even the most creative, is ultimately a kind of complicated imitation and iteration on that which came before it, and humans were not the first artists, not really anyways. Art is observed first, and created second.

    TL;DR art is probably magic, I dunno
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    This is probably not true. Frankly, I would stop reading into these articles and applying socionics theory to them. This social theory I see you've created out of typology is probably nonsense. I can't prove that conclusively because nobody does any research into this field, especially not me.

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