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Thread: Historical Representatives of Cognitive Styles

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    Default Historical Representatives of Cognitive Styles

    As the Socionics types have fictional or historical examples, what are some examples of the cognitive styles?


    I'll add some for Dialectical-Algorithmic thinking.

    Obviously, Hegel and Heraclitus since Gulenko mentioned them by name in his description of the style.

    I think Oscar Wilde, G.K Chesterton, and Slavoj Žižek, could all be representatives of this cognitive style as well.
    The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.

    The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".

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    I haven't read enough amout of their works so it's very hard for me to decide that.

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    Default Historical Representatives of Cognitive Styles

    So after DNCH is this the next big fad because someone brought it up? I notice Gulenko goes in phases. It’s like his ideas are the latest cool DLC onto Socionics. People discuss them for a while and then they sorta forget about them until someone brings them up again.

    They’re good in concept but start to get convoluted in reality. They’re abstract descriptions and refined concepts but they’re never really permanently discussed like the established system (Mode G/Model A).

    If we keep adding stuff onto the theory, it will get super convoluted. And ruin the credibility of what is already established and refined and makes sense. What’s next? Gendered functions? Male Se and Female Se?

    I understand all that but I just think that it’s a bit far to say that human thinking can be condensed into four “styles” based on type. And a type from each Quadra is linked to one based on benefit rings. And that you can dualise with the thinking styles.

    No two people think exactly the same from the types. You have variants. I mean you can try and categorise it all as best as you can but you’re still going to have gaps and microcosms that can’t be fully defined.

    Yeah you can have a best fit, but what’s the point in keeping organising and defining things when it can only go so far and can’t go on? It’s about the quality of the categories and organising things and not the quantity of them.

    You can be an amoeba and keep multiplying the categories and making new ones but people will stop following at some point because they have better things to do.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thank you for sending this from your iPhone using Tapatalk, like your identical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    Thank you for sending this from your iPhone using Tapatalk, like your identical.
    It's just an app, Alpha.

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    Holographic-panoramic:

    Machiavelli
    Sun Tzu
    Jean-Luc Godard
    Descartes

    Casual Determinist:

    Michel Foucault
    Ayn Rand
    Confucius

    Dialectic-algorithmic:

    Neitzche
    Kafka
    Louis-Ferdinand Celine

    Vortical-synergistic:

    Albert Camus
    Yukio Mishima
    William Clark
    Last edited by Averroes; 09-30-2021 at 02:41 PM.

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    Using historic figures to represent types seems as misguided as current Socionics models. Most of what we know about these figures is anecdotal and although we know of their accomplishments, experts in Socionics didn't personally observe them in action so what is useful about using them as archetypes. And, these experts can't seem to agree on models so where does that leave us, the amateurs, in picturing how say Heraclitus would have really behaved.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Dialectical-Algorithmic

    Epictetus, LSE

    Everything has two handles: one by which it may be borne, another by which it cannot. If your brother acts unjustly, do not lay hold on the affair by the handle of his injustice, for by that it cannot be borne; but rather by the opposite, that he is your brother, that he was brought up with you; and thus you will lay hold on it as it is to be borne.
    Remember that following desire promises the attainment of that of which you are desirous; and aversion promises the avoiding that to which you are averse. However, he who fails to obtain the object of his desire is disappointed, and he who incurs the object of his aversion wretched. If, then, you confine your aversion to those objects only which are contrary to the natural use of your faculties, which you have in your own control, you will never incur anything to which you are averse. But if you are averse to sickness, or death, or poverty, you will be wretched. Remove aversion, then, from all things that are not in our control, and transfer it to things contrary to the nature of what is in our control. But, for the present, totally suppress desire: for, if you desire any of the things which are not in your own control, you must necessarily be disappointed; and of those which are, and which it would be laudable to desire, nothing is yet in your possession. Use only the appropriate actions of pursuit and avoidance; and even these lightly, and with gentleness and reservation.
    The Enchiridion and Discourses are basically page after page of walking up and down flow charts / decision trees.

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    Herman Hesse IEI

    What makes my account particularly difficult is the great disparity in my individual recollections. I have already said that sometimes we marched along only as a small group; sometimes we formed a troop or even an army, but sometimes I remained in a district with only a few friends, or even quite alone, without tents, without leaders and without a Speaker. My tale becomes even more difficult because we not only wandered through Space, but also through Time. We moved towards the East, but we also traveled into the Middle Ages and the Golden Age; we roamed through Italy or Switzerland, but at times we also spent the night in the 10th century and dwelt with the patriarchs or the fairies.

    During the times I remained alone, I often found again places and people of my own past. I wandered with my former betrothed along the edges of the forest of the Upper Rhine, caroused with friends of my youth in Tübingen, in Basle or in Florence, or I was a boy and went with my school-friends to catch butterflies or to watch an otter, or my company consisted of the beloved characters of my books; Almansor and Parsifal, Witiko or Goldmund rode by my side, or Sancho Panza, or we were guests at the Barmekides.

    When I found my way back to our group in some valley or another, heard the League’s songs and camped by the leaders’ tents, it was immediately clear to me that my excursion into my childhood and my ride with Sancho belonged essentially to this journey. For our goal was not only the East, or rather the East was not only a country and something geographical, but it was the home and youth of the soul, it was everywhere and nowhere, it was the union of all times.

    Yet I was only aware of this for a moment, and therein lay the reason for my great happiness at that time. Later, when I had lost this happiness again, I clearly understood these connections without deriving the slightest benefit or comfort from them. When something precious and irretrievable is lost, we have the feeling of having awakened from a dream.

    In my case this feeling is strangely correct, for my happiness did indeed arise from the same secret as the happiness in dreams; it arose from the freedom to experience everything imaginable simultaneously, to exchange outward and inward easily, to move Time and Space about like scenes in a theatre. And as we League brothers traveled throughout the world without motor-cars or ships, as we conquered the war-shattered world by our faith and transformed it into Paradise, we creatively brought the past, the future and the fictitious into the present moment.
    Vortical-Synergetic

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    Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post
    Herman Hesse IEI



    Vortical-Synergetic
    Haven't looked much into this area of socionics but need to since I'm seeing it come up a lot.

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    Causal-Determinant

    Douglas Adams ILE

    The night seemed like an alive thing to him at this moment, the dark earth around him a being in which he was rooted.

    He could feel like a tingle on distant nerve ends the flood of a far river, the roll of invisible hills, the knot of heavy rainclouds parked somewhere away to the south.

    He could sense, too, the thrill of being a tree, which was something he hadn't expected. He knew that it felt good to curl your toes in the earth, but he'd never realized it could feel quite as good as that. He could sense an almost unseemly wave of pleasure reaching out to him all the way from the New Forest. He must try this summer, he thought, and see what having leaves felt like.

    From another direction he felt the sensation of being a sheep startled by a flying saucer, but it was virtually indistinguishable from the feeling of being a sheep startled by anything else it ever encountered, for they were creatures who learned very little on their journey through life, and would be startled to see the sun rising in the morning, and astonished by all the green stuff in the fields.

    He was surprised to find he could feel the sheep being startled by the sun that morning, and the morning before, and being startled by a clump of trees the day before that. He could go further and further back, but it got dull because all it consisted of was sheep being startled by things they'd been startled by the day before.

    He left the sheep and let his mind drift outwards sleepily in developing ripples. It felt the presence of other minds, hundreds of them, thousands in a web, some sleepy, some sleeping, some terribly excited, one fractured.

    One fractured.

    He passed it fleetingly and tried to feel for it again, but it eluded him like the other card with an apple on it in Pelmanism. He felt a spasm of excitement because he knew instinctively who it was, or at least knew who it was he wanted it to be, and once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is.

    He instinctively knew that it was Fenny and that he wanted to find her; but he could not. By straining too much for it, he could feel he was losing this strange new faculty, so he relaxed the search and let his mind wander more easily once more.

    And again, he felt the fracture.

    Again he couldn't find it. This time, whatever his instinct was busy telling him it was all right to believe, he wasn't certain that it was Fenny – or perhaps it was a different fracture this time. It had the same disjointed quality but it seemed a more general feeling of fracture, deeper, not a single mind, maybe not a mind at all. It was different.

    He let his mind sink slowly and widely into the Earth, rippling, seeping, sinking.

    He was following the Earth through its days, drifting with the rhythms of its myriad pulses, seeping through the webs of its life, swelling with its tides, turning with its weight. Always the fracture kept returning, a dull disjointed distant ache.
    And now he was flying through a land of light; the light was time, the tides of it were days receding. The fracture he had sensed, the second fracture, lay in the distance before him across the land, the thickness of a single hair across the dreaming landscape of the days of Earth.

    And suddenly he was upon it.

    He danced dizzily over the edge as the dreamland dropped sheer away beneath him, a stupefying precipice into nothing, him wildly twisting, clawing at nothing, flailing in horrifying space, spinning, falling.

    Across the jagged chasm had been another land, another time, an older world, not fractured from, but hardly joined: two Earths. He woke.


    Imagine an 1800s telegraph coming in on slips of paper.


    -What if I had earth-like PoV? STOP

    -I am aware of water STOP

    -I am aware of trees STOP

    -I am aware of sheep minds STOP

    -OhthistrainisinterestingI'llexplorethisforawhile STOP

    -Hmmitseemstobethesameshitoverandover STOP

    -OhshitIlookedbackintimeandpeeredintotheabyssofwhat hasalreadybeenbeforeandwillbeagain STOP

    -I must transcend awareness from the limited mind to the all-mind STOP

    -I am become the narrator of the story and the fractured mental according to taste inquiry moisten EARBUDS

    Condensed down to its structure:


    -Idea spark

    -Jump to frame of reference 1 & its chain of implications

    -Jump to frame of reference 2 & its chain of implications

    -Jump to frame of reference 3 & its chain of implications

    -Dead end

    -Transcend limited states & local frames of reference for the unlimited state & the "Omni" frame of reference

    -Mental play with and within all conceivable frames of reference & unbounded by what locally appears to be "THE" state/rules of "the game", leads to interesting and absurd combinations
    These are specific to ILE because of what Ne & Ti do, but don't take this literally as "how ILE think". This is only what is available to the outside observer.

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    I'd say Causal Determinism is very referential because we need axioms. It seems to be prone to get ideas of references as well (as such this line of thinking should not be treated as a pure pathology - it is a very quick way to troubleshoot or build links it might want to exclude some influences out from the picture as long as you are open to refine or redefine). [<- This should give some hints of contexts where you might find CD types. Lots of inventive stuff, comedy and schizophrenic ramblings are like that but I would not say that it belongs to this type/style alone.]
    Last edited by Sanguine Miasma; 10-01-2021 at 10:37 PM.
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    Baruch Spinoza.I suggest Causal Deterministic because he based his ideas on purely artificial constructs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    If we keep adding stuff onto the theory, it will get super convoluted. And ruin the credibility of what is already established and refined and makes sense. What’s next? Gendered functions? Male Se and Female Se?

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Lmao there are already certain theories that have this concept. DaveSuperPowers (who is given far more credit than he deserves in MBTI circles) has gendered functions/types and it is indeed just as pointless as it sounds.


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    Holographic-Panoramic

    John Steinbeck ESI

    I want to wind this first chapter up well. The others are not so clear cut. But I like a chapter to have design of tone, as well as of form. A chapter should be a perfect cell in the whole book and should almost be able to stand alone. If this is done then the breaks we call chapters are not arbitrary but rather articulations which allow the free movement of the story. I think you will find that the theme is beginning to emerge. And it had to take time. It will emerge again and again. But this time it will just peer out and withdraw.
    He is describing a refined and finished "hologram" cell. At the end he slips in some Ni.

    It is always amazing to me how we forget our failures. I guess if we didn’t, we could not survive. But perhaps it is no bad thing to take a little time to go back over failures, not to glory in them but just to remind ourselves. In the forgetting it is not vainglory that bothers me but simply that things neglected as not done well slip away as though they never had happened. Last night I turned up so many of them hiding in the brush of my background. It seemed to me that if one kept one’s self aware of them, they might possibly never be repeated. I think this is vain thinking but I did it anyway. Now a new week opens. And I am going to attack a weighty problem. It is this way. You establish a diet and you lose a certain amount of weight and then you stop. You are on a plateau. It requires violence to break through it. And there is where I am now. So I will smash it in about four days of very little food and then I can go down a few pounds again until I reach another plateau—then violence again. But I believe it is good to stay on the plateaus for a while to get the system strong for the new attack. Now it is time to go to work again.

    Going well today. I am trying to hold it down to 1000 words a day for a while....

    What he describes is


    Aim
    ,
    Attack, advance, hit plateau/meet resistance/dead-end,

    Forecast,
    Re-group/re-position,

    Aim,
    Attack, advance, hit plateau/meet resistance/dead-end,

    Forecast,
    Re-group/re-position,

    Aim,
    Attack... repeat.

    Debrief
    In the "debrief" afterwards he revisits the flawed successes and forgotten failures. He notices neglected priorities and restores their place in the system. He is not satisfied with progress, he digs up the background "casualties" and sloppy execution and places them in the foreground.


    This next part is not about HP, just to show he is ESI.


    Fi controlling Se "attack" to make it safe and control his own pace and the pace of the story/other people.

    Going well today. I am trying to hold it down to 1000 words a day for a while. I have always the tendency to hurry and I don’t want to this time. I want this book to be a very slow one. I must not let this book run away from me. The story moves but it must move at its own pace. I had thought to get all of the early story of Adam down in one chapter but I can’t. It will have to be split over two chapters. I will get him into the army and then leave him and go back to the Hamiltons, and to discussion. Otherwise it would be too long in one stretch. Also, when Adam comes back from the army, he will be a formed man and it will be the thing I have written the whole thing for. And as I haye mentioned before and again and again—a story has a life of its own. It must be allowed to take its own pace. It can’t be pushed too much. If it is, the warp shows through and the story is unnatural and unsafe. And this story of mine must be safe. At last I wonder how many events are accidents and how many are created and forced by the natures of the protagonists. To a large extent I lean toward the latter.

    Later. Now the day’s work is over and the story moves. I hope it does. It seems to. But we will see. The morrow’s work if I do enough of it will end the chapter. It will consist in the following: the day, the fight, the second talk with Carl, the night, the visit in the night with Alice. And with that I will end the chapter. Then after a stretch about the Hamiltons I will go back to Connecticut, the girl, the marriage, and the take-off to California.
    And now I go back to the Hamiltons and to my boys (his sons in real life). And it is peculiar that I go back to the boys on this particular day. Gwyn called me yesterday to tell me that Tom is refusing to go to school, fights to stay away, claims he misses the bus. When the two of them stayed overnight with me last week I knew that Tom was in some deep emotional trouble, I could feel it. And I am pretty sure it is a simple feeling of rejection, of not being loved. [...] I’m going to take him into the country Saturday and Sunday to see if I can help him. I’ll want to talk to him but mostly I’ll want him to talk if I can get him to—and without his brother. I feel that the competition there is so much too great for him under whatever handicaps he feels he has. So you see, coming back in the book to the boys is almost like talking to him in trouble. [...] The story will move along but it will never move quickly. I don’t want it to. It has a long slow pace and I will do anything to keep it that way...
    Last edited by inaLim; 10-03-2021 at 04:08 PM.

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