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Thread: Aristocratic Domination/Submission

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    Default Aristocratic Domination/Submission

    So I went out with a group of both Japanese and expat friends of various Japanese and English abilities for karaoke tonight and I noticed something. I am extremely submissive when I perceive others to be better than me somehow, but I really dominate quite a bit when I feel confident. Is this an example of aristocratic behaviour? Perhaps Beta aristocracy in particular?

    More specifically, I notice a huge difference in my confidence when speaking Japanese based on the level of those around me. Tonight I happened to be the English speaker with the highest Japanese proficiency, and was also much better at Japanese than the best Japanese English-speaker was at English, so I ended up in the role of interpreter tonight, but this is by no means always the case. I find myself acting very energetic, sociable, and almost a bit dominant when I know I'm the best at something like this. I take charge, handle everyone's orders, and pay for all the drinks. Then when I'm with a different friend whose Japanese ability is far above mine (or if I'm with Japanese people who speak English way better than I speak Japanese) I find myself behaving totally differently. I tend to act demure and a bit helpless almost. I end up speaking way less than my language ability might allow and naturally just give up leadership to people who I recognize as clearly above me.

    I'm wondering if this is basically the aristocratic dimension at play or maybe more specifically an example of how it works generally for Beta Quadra. Is it common for other Beta types or other aristocratic types to readily seize and relinquish leadership as the social landscape changes?

    Other IEIs, do you find yourself alternating between submissive and dominant depending on what you feel your place in the hierarchy is? This is something which I notice myself doing across a wide range of situations, though tonight was specifically with regards to language ability.

    P.S. I also notice that I don't really care all that much which role I occupy. I'm perfectly happy taking charge or submitting as the situation allows/changes. This is just a thing I've noticed about myself and was wondering how y'all thought it might relate to Socionics. If you feel it's better explained by something other than the aristocratic dimension or even if you think it might have more to do with Enneagram or something please share. I just wanna know where you think this behaviour comes from!
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    The Evening and the Morning Star Eudaimonia's Avatar
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    I don't like the idea of being submissive in a group conversation and I don't like to be looked down upon by others. I don't really care about dominating the conversation though. I don't really need to be in the center of the conversation. The SLE is usually the one that is going to barrel through a group conversation like a freight train. I have seen times where it's so extreme that none of us in the group can tell for sure if the SLE is talking to themselves or us.

    I probably come off as submissive in the presence of an Se type. Idk for sure. I let Se types take control, I'm very susceptible to listening to them. I don't care about being in control, I'm indecisive anyway. ST women will control me too easily.

    When I feel out of intellectual depth I will mask my knowledge (and ignorance) in the form of a Socratic dialogue, where I ask the person more and more to gauge their level of expertise. ST types will love to explain and I love to be explained to, so this dynamic works well.

    In work situations or times where team organization matters, I like things to have a hierarchy, I want to know who everyone is and what they are to the group. I want that to be respected as well. If I feel that I am being knocked down and looked at as the lowest man, I will act in a way that will indicate I'm not. If that makes sense.

    In a group of friends, I don't think there is such a "rank" but in a beta group, there are definitely those that get teased more than others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    So I went out with a group of both Japanese and expat friends of various Japanese and English abilities for karaoke tonight and I noticed something. I am extremely submissive when I perceive others to be better than me somehow, but I really dominate quite a bit when I feel confident. Is this an example of aristocratic behaviour? Perhaps Beta aristocracy in particular?
    From my experience as an alpha, yes probably. Though ofc I can say that there are types that should be beta/delta who aren't aristocratic and vice versa, but in general ya that would definitely be linked with aristocracy.

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    do you find yourself alternating between submissive and dominant depending on what you feel your place in the hierarchy is? This is something which I notice myself doing across a wide range of situations, though tonight was specifically with regards to language ability.

    100% yes. Very relatable. My behavior can change a lot depending on group dynamics. My husband is always the dominant one within our family, but if I’m around my mom, I become the donminant one. I actually struggle for dominance around my kids, because I’m supposed to be the one ‘in charge’ but feel like I epically fail. But yes, I adapt to the people or group I’m around, I can act a lot different around different people/different situations…
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    Other IEIs, do you find yourself alternating between submissive and dominant depending on what you feel your place in the hierarchy is? This is something which I notice myself doing across a wide range of situations, though tonight was specifically with regards to language ability.
    Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. I'd add that it also depends on where I feel my place in the relationship with the other person is, when it's 1-on-1. I'm not sure what it is, I ascribed it to the reflex to fill up the vacant spot (flexible Fe) [with a dominant/submissive interpretation (Ni/Se)]

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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    So I went out with a group of both Japanese and expat friends of various Japanese and English abilities for karaoke tonight and I noticed something. I am extremely submissive when I perceive others to be better than me somehow, but I really dominate quite a bit when I feel confident. Is this an example of aristocratic behaviour? Perhaps Beta aristocracy in particular?
    Even though I’m not IEI afaik, I am an aristocratic type, and I relate to this a lot. This might just be because I grew up with a lot of Beta influence, but I also find myself acting very differently depending on what the hierarchy is in a given situation.

    Now that I think about it, it might actually be related to so/sx (which is my stacking too). I’m much more comfortable speaking languages, or showing other displays of competence, when I can tell that my level is not drastically worse than those around me. I naturally take more of a backseat approach when I am in an inferior position, as it allows me to better observe and maybe learn something new, and because there’s not a social vacuum to fill (often accompanied by shame and a drive to be better when others aren't supportive). When I happen to be at a level higher than others though, I’m much more willing to take a dominant role, as they can perhaps learn something from me. It would also make me uncomfortable to not provide that input for them if they were aware of a difference in ability. A good deal of it isn’t that conscious though, and I too experience a surge of confidence and outgoingness :)

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    Woah this is a really interesting topic. I never really thought about it.

    I also hang out with Japanese people to practice Japanese and teach them English as well. I never go out in large groups though, just one to one. My conversational skills in Japanese are terrible though so I tend to rely on English whenever possible.
    I find myself a bit meek when talking in Japanese. It's hard to voice my complex thoughts in another language when I lack higher level grammar/vocabulary. But when talking in English or otherwise speaking broken Japanese while interpreting in proper English, I feel very confident and expressive. My confidence while talking in Japanese skyrockets the moment I figure out the other person's sense of humour and make them laugh.

    On the other hand I tend to dominate conversations in English with native speakers as a non-native. But when I first started living in an English speaking country I would shit my pants whenever I tried talking to a cashier or something hahaha

    Perhaps your "dominance" is due to feeling confident in your skill level rather than being at the top of the gaijin totem pole When you get reminded that there's always a bigger fish, you suddenly feel like there's still a long way to go, thus losing confidence.
    Still, being aware at all about people's skill level (seeing it as a competition of sorts) makes me think of aristocratic > democratic. For me I unconsciously gauge my interlocutor's skill level and adjust my vocabulary to make sure to convey my points and get the conversation rolling.

    Now that I think about it I am mostly unaware of those "hierarchies" that people speak of. Although at some point I noticed that people often belong to different "levels" in different social groups (example: some nerd that gets bullied at school but he's the king of his anime club ). But to think in those terms, kissing ass to those "above" and condescending to those "below" is completely alien to me.
    I do notice when someone is better than me, but instead of sucking up to him, I see him as someone to learn from and surpass, but more in the sense of being on equal footing (as if running a race) and not like a hierarchy (as if "taking his spot"). This said I am more competitive than the average ILE or Alpha and it's probably just the Se role acting up lol

    TBH it's very natural to become more confident in an environment where your skills are validated or otherwise valued. Might just be a human thing and not type related.

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    I find myself acting very energetic, sociable, and almost a bit dominant when I know I'm the best at something like this.

    Forgive me for asking but doesn't everyone feel a boost when engaged in favorite work or hobby?

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    The first post seems to be an example of the chameleon nature of IEIs which I attempted to describe in my description of them. They tend to adapt to the demands of the room so they fit in and are accepted - some can be natural tacticians in diplomatic circles. Although I'm sure some may feel aristocratic at times and other times submissive, it has little to do with type.

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ription-by-I-O

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    I am extremely submissive when I perceive others to be better than me somehow, but I really dominate quite a bit when I feel confident.
    I think this is human nature. I found it has been beneficial for me to do the opposite, act confident in uncertain situations, and be humble in situations when I am in full control.
    Last edited by hardR; 10-03-2021 at 11:22 AM. Reason: wording

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baqer View Post
    Though ofc I can say that there are types that should be beta/delta who aren't aristocratic and vice versa
    Interesting you say this, because it's always been a bit tricky of a dichotomy for me to see in some people, but I'm very intrigued by it
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    @The Banana King Oh wow! Thanks for the super interesting response! It's interesting to me that you say you are mostly unaware of these hierarchies. For me I can't really imagine not being aware of them, and have always adjusted my behaviour in accordance with them.

    By the way if you're struggling with Japanese, you might just not be getting enough input. I recommend the YouTube channel 日本語の森 cause they teach Japanese grammar using slow, clear, easily understandable Japanese. Just find the JLPT level you feel you're roughly at and start watching from there!

    Sorry for the short reply. Your response is really interesting, but I have a class to go teach
    猫が生き甲斐

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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    @The Banana King Oh wow! Thanks for the super interesting response! It's interesting to me that you say you are mostly unaware of these hierarchies. For me I can't really imagine not being aware of them, and have always adjusted my behaviour in accordance with them.

    By the way if you're struggling with Japanese, you might just not be getting enough input. I recommend the YouTube channel 日本語の森 cause they teach Japanese grammar using slow, clear, easily understandable Japanese. Just find the JLPT level you feel you're roughly at and start watching from there!

    Sorry for the short reply. Your response is really interesting, but I have a class to go teach
    Thanks for the advice! Yeah, I have basically no spoken or written output at all. All I got is a good reading ability. When learning Japanese I focused too much on being able to understand manga and VNs so I got a big useless vocab basically However, now that I'm hanging out with Japanese friends my listening ability in particular has gotten pretty good. Hopefully my speaking will follow suit

    How do you normally study Japanese? I find SRS to be quite pleasant and not tedious at all. I usually just grind vocab for an hour or two every day and that's it. My active grammar sucks ass though. Passive grammar is basically acquired through vocab grinding and common sense so I can kinda wing it. And finding "compelling content" to read is a pain in the ass because you have to find something at around your level or else it's soul-crushing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    Forgive me for asking but doesn't everyone feel a boost when engaged in favorite work or hobby?[/COLOR]
    Yes, I think so, but I'm not talking about just feeling good about yourself. I mean like there's a mindset switch where you start to think of yourself as "the leader" somehow. If I feel myself to be higher in the hierarchy then I'll continuously put in the effort to maintain that position and make group decisions (e.g. if we're deciding where to go for dinner then I'll take the initiative to suggest a place we all go to and see if that works from everyone. I feel like I become significantly more forceful when I do this), whereas if I don't feel myself to occupy that place in the hierarchy I won't make any effort to take on any leadership and won't make many/any suggestions about what we ought to do next. I feel a very clear switch being flicked on or off for me based on where I perceive myself in relation to the group. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but hopefully I was able to explain things more clearly there
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    The first post seems to be an example of the chameleon nature of IEIs which I attempted to describe in my description of them. They tend to adapt to the demands of the room so they fit in and are accepted - some can be natural tacticians in diplomatic circles. Although I'm sure some may feel aristocratic at times and other times submissive, it has little to do with type.

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ription-by-I-O

    a.k.a. I/O
    Oh, awesome, thanks for sharing! That's probably the most accurate description of my type that I've ever read!! Interesting that you say it has little to do with type though. I take it that you're not a fan of the Reinin Dichotomies then?
    猫が生き甲斐

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardR View Post
    I think this is human nature. I found it has been beneficial for me to do the opposite, act confident in uncertain situations, and be humble in situations when I am in full control.
    On some level I think you're definitely right, but on another I look at some of my friends who are far better at Japanese than I am and they make little to no effort to manage the group when they're on top which to me feels odd. Perhaps this is because of my position in my family though. I'm the oldest of my generation in my family (including extended family) and grew up being told I was in charge and therefore must be a good example, help everyone younger than me, and all that stuff, so I suppose I think of people at the top of a hierarchy as naturally bearing more responsibility than others and just carried that view with me into adulthood. It just looks very strange to me when someone better at the language doesn't make an attempt to get everyone's orders and do all the communicating at a restaurant or something. I could also see this as not being the aristocratic trait so much as it is Fe-ego too though
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    Thanks for the advice! Yeah, I have basically no spoken or written output at all. All I got is a good reading ability. When learning Japanese I focused too much on being able to understand manga and VNs so I got a big useless vocab basically However, now that I'm hanging out with Japanese friends my listening ability in particular has gotten pretty good. Hopefully my speaking will follow suit

    How do you normally study Japanese? I find SRS to be quite pleasant and not tedious at all. I usually just grind vocab for an hour or two every day and that's it. My active grammar sucks ass though. Passive grammar is basically acquired through vocab grinding and common sense so I can kinda wing it. And finding "compelling content" to read is a pain in the ass because you have to find something at around your level or else it's soul-crushing
    You're welcome! If you need more output then you should check out apps like HelloTalk which will introduce you to a lot more people. I find people on that app are very willing to do language exchange calls or even hop on Discord with you and play a few games. I've met a lot of gamer friends that way and usually play Apex with them. I think as long as you're hanging out with Japanese people and making an effort though then you'll get there! 頑張って!

    I also use SRS (the Anki app specifically), but keep in mind that SRS can also be used for whole phrases or bits of grammar, not just vocab. In my Anki I have 1 kanji deck, all 10 of the "Japanese Core 2000 Listening Sentence Vocab + Images" decks, 3 custom vocab decks, and 1 custom grammar/phrases deck. In the grammar/phrases deck I include everything from bits of grammar like "~たとたん" to comments I find on the Japanese sides of Reddit or YouTube (or occasionally on sites like NicoNico) like, "雨ばっかりでやんなっちゃうわね". Sometimes my friend will say something and I'll just be like, "Wait! Let me add that to my deck, that sounded like a useful phrase."

    In addition to SRS, manga, anime, and games, I also live in Japan and sometimes have to translate documents for the city office, so some of my practice is just unavoidable daily life/work stuff. I just keep an eye and ear out for potentially useful phrases/grammar/vocab as I go about my life here and at them to my SRS routine as I find them. I also just hang out with Japanese people either in person or via calls/gaming pretty regularly so that helps a lot too. Let me know if you ever want any specific resources or other sorts of advice though and I'll do what I can
    猫が生き甲斐

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    ....... I take it that you're not a fan of the Reinin Dichotomies then?
    My background is control systems so they seem to be just another way of classifying "dark matter" - a term that means: it might behave somewhat like this but we haven't figured it out yet.

    a.k.a. I/O

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