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Thread: Jung's descriptions on the Role and the Demonstrative

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    Default Jung's descriptions on Model A functions (Role & Demonstrative)

    Of course, Jung didn't invent Model A. He didn't really differentiate the 8 functions as sytematically as Aushra. But from Jung's texts, we can find clues for various Model A functions.

    The most obivious one is the Leading function and the Suggestive function, which is illustrated as the Anima in Jung's text. Although Anima is described as an archetype, I don't generally agree that the functions are fully corresponding to archetypes. Jung's definition of archetypes is related to the introverted attitude and the collective unconscious. Of course, the suggestive function has some relation to it since it deals with duality and hence Jung described its relationship with love. I think it's also fair to claim that the Model is an evolved part of human's psyche so they are related to the collective uncounscious. But I don't generally agree to assign archetypes to all functions. Archetypes are Jung's researches on the collective uncounscious and it contains many other things there.

    Jung also hinted the existences of the Creative and the Activating. For creative, Jung hinted the possibility of an aux function. For activating, Jung said that his Anima contains mostly F and some S.

    Now I'm discussing two lesser noticed functions. The Role and the Demonstrative. They are subdued functions. But Jung actually also mentioned them. What Jung described is pretty similar to what Socionics finds.

    the Role function

    Jung mentioned it in the 8th volumn of The Collected Works of C.G. Jung. When discussing the progressing of libido, Jung gave an example which resembles the Role functions:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    For example, a feeling-attitude that seeks to fulfil the demands of reality by means of empathy may easily encounter a situation that can only be solved through thinking. In this case the feeling-attitude breaks down and the progression of libido also ceases. The vital feeling that was present before disappears, and in its place the psychic value of certain conscious contents increases in an unpleasant way;
    From the Socionics' perspective, this is how a Fi-leading person plays the Ti-role. The person in the example is mainly oriented toward emphathy but when finding tasks that has to be solved via thinking, (s)he has to use the Role function. The means of "conscious" here is doubtful but anyway in Model A, Role is a mental function.

    the Demonstrative (Background) function

    Jung discussed the Demonstrative function in his Memories. When the Red Book is edited, these materials are cited to describe the background of the Red Book.

    In Jung's Memories he claimed that he has a No.1 personality and a No.2 personality. Although he said that they are two contradictory parts of his ego, how he illustrate his No.2 personality reminds me of the Demonstrative function in Socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    The play and counterplay between personalities No. 1 and No. 2, which has run through my whole life, has nothing to do with a “split” or dissociation in the ordinary medical sense. On the contrary, it is played out in every individual.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    My ego was, in any case, difficult enough for me to grasp. In the first place, I was aware that it consisted of two contradictory aspects: No. 1 and No. 2.
    So according to Jung, No.1 and No.2 are contradictory. Although Jung attributes both of them to the ego, I think it doesn't mean the No.2 is the Creative function since Jung didn't divide the Model into ego, super-ego, super-id and id. I personally understand Jung's Ego as the opposite to Self, which contains the collective conscious. When reading how Jung described his No.2 personality, it reminds me of the Demonstrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    Reading was not only interesting but provided a welcome and beneficial distraction from the preoccupations of personality No. 2, which in increasing measure were leading me to depressions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    As the tensions of this moral conflict increased, No. 2 personality became more and more doubtful and distasteful to me, and I could no longer hide this fact from myself. I tried to extinguish No. 2, but could not succeed in that either.
    Both quotes suggest that No.2 is a subdued function, it might lead to depression and Jung tried to extinguish it. Doesn't it sounds like id? "I can" but I don't want, I want to extinguish it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    Although at that time I doubtless saw no difference as yet between personalities No. 1 and No. 2, and still claimed the world of No. 2 as my own personal world, there was always, deep in the background, the feeling that something other than myself was involved. It was as though a breath of the great world of stars and endless space had touched me, or as if a spirit had invisibly entered the room—the spirit of one who had long been dead and yet was perpetually present in timelessness until far into the future. Denouements of this sort were wreathed with the halo of a numen.
    Jung claimed that the No.2 personality has something deep in the background. It has the feeling of something other than himself. Again this shows that No.2 is subdued, its value contradicts the value of No.1. However, it's running in the background and it feels like something that has been died but the spirit is perpetual. So it's not a mental function, it's a vital subdued function running in the background of our program. If it's a mental function it is supposed to be more vivid instead of being something like "dead but spiritly perpetual".

    This is how Socionics discovers the Demonstrative function. In some schools such as the Socionics Research Institute, the Demonstrative function is also called the Background function. It is called Demonstrative because it's the id function that running in the background and hence show up uncounsciously and demonstratively. For instance, LIIs often have a defocused look and in Model A it's attributed to the background running of our Ni-Demonstrative.

    This is how Socionics Research Institute describes the Background function:
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Prokofiev
    It is included in the work almost always, forms the background of the whole life of a person. It should not strive for creative work, but it is a reliable support for a person in any situation. (Machine translation from The structure of the psyche. Model A. Briefly (socionics.ru))
    Quote Originally Posted by Yu. In. Isaev
    Perhaps that is why one of the names of the eighth function is "demonstrative". As if a person deliberately and consciously demonstrates his success in it.

    In part, such catchiness of the eighth function is justified, because it attracts those who feel their conscious weakness in this aspect (for example, duals). And the strength of the eighth function is quite enough to provide their products and themselves, and some circle of people who were nearby.

    Such a name of the eighth function as "background" is also justified, because thanks to its incessant activity, it passes in the background through the whole life of the TIM carrier. This background is the carrier of TIM does not notice and weakly appreciates, but it is visible and significant to others.

    Also, the eighth function is called "realizing", since all the results of the work of the ego block are implemented precisely through the activity of the eighth function, it embodies creative ideas into concrete actions. (Machine translation from Support of the subconscious. Eighth function in Model A (socionics.ru))
    Demonstrative function is not easy for the TIM carrier to notice, it's a vital function, but it runs as a background program so it's visible and demonstrative to the others. Of course, Jung is aware of his Demonstrative, but even he made a lot of effort to connect his subconscious, he feels it vaguely and he finds it not very clearly defined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    At that time it would, as I have said, have been beyond my powers to formulate my feelings and intuitions in any graphic way, for they all occurred in No. 2 personality, while my active and comprehending ego remained passive and was absorbed into the sphere of the “old man,” who belonged to the centuries. I experienced him and his influence in a curiously unreflective manner; when he was present, No. 1 personality paled to the point of nonexistence, and when the ego that became increasingly identical with No. 1 personality dominated the scene, the old man, if remembered at all, seemed a remote and unreal dream.
    Jung linked his No.2 with the "old man". He said that his graphical intuition is beyond his powers and they all occured in his No.2. I think that many typed Jung as Ni-leading due to his graphical dreams. Jung actually clearly attributed them to his No.2, which is probably the Demonstrative function.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    Science met, to a very large extent, the needs of No. 1 personality, whereas the humane or historical studies provided beneficial instruction for No. 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    This dream was a great illumination for me. Now I knew that No. 1 was the bearer of the light, and that No. 2 followed him like a shadow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    I must leave No. 2 behind me, that was clear. But under no circumstances ought I to deny him to myself or declare him invalid. That would have been a self-mutilation, and would moreover have deprived me of any possibility of explaining the origin of the dreams. For there was no doubt in my mind that No. 2 had something to do with the creation of dreams, and I could easily credit him with the necessary superior intelligence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    At any rate, a schism had taken place between me and No. 2, with the result that “I” was assigned to No. 1 and was separated from No. 2 in the same degree, who thereby acquired, as it were, an autonomous personality. ..... He played the role of a factor in the background of my No. 1 existence, never clearly defined but yet definitely present.
    Jung once struggled to decide whether to study seince or to study humanity. Finally Jung realized that No.1 is light while No.2 is a shadow. He realized that he was defined by No.1 while No.2 is an autonomous personality. Again, this shows two points: No.2 is subdued/unvalued, and No.2 is something running is the backgroud demonstratively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    I was carried away by enthusiasm, and soon afterward read Thus Spake Zarathustra. This, like Goethe’s Faust, was a tremendous experience for me. Zarathustra was Nietzsche’s Faust, his No. 2, and my No. 2 now corresponded to Zarathustra—though this was rather like comparing a molehill with Mount Blanc.
    Finally, Jung linked his No.2 to the Zarathustra in Nietzsche's Thus Spake Zarathustra. Although I'm not familiar with Nietzsche's Zarathustra, I think there's various clue in Jung's memories that his No.2 is probably Ni.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    My mother nodded darkly. “Yes, yes,” she said in her No. 2 voice, “that means something.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    My mother’s No. 2 looked at me meaningfully, but I could find nothing to say.
    Jung also identified several demonstrations of his mother's No.2.

    Conlucison: Although Jung's descriptions on the No.2 personality is somewhat vague. But I think there's enough clue to link it with the Demonstrative function in Model A. There are several clues:

    Clue 1: From Jung's descriptions of his No.2 personality, it seems to be subdued (something other than himself, lead to depression, shadow, contradictory, realized to follow No.1 instead) and vital (background, not clearly defined, like something dead etc.). Jung claimed that No.2 is something automnous and runs in the background. Such descriptions are similar to the Demonstrative.

    Clue 2: Jung typed him self as an introverted thinker with intuition to be the second. So Jung's self-typing is LII and LII has Ni as the Demonstrative.

    Clue 3: Jung claimed that his interests in humane and histroical studies attrubutes more to No.2, his graphical intuitions are beyond his power and in the No.2, he links his No.2 with Nietzsche's Zarathustra. All that hints that his No.2 might be Ni-related.

    So the 3 clues are consistent. It shows that the No.2 described by Jung is probably the Demonstrative function, Jung is an LII and has Ni as his Demonstrative. Considering that his writing without the Ni-themed materials are quite LII-ish, I think these clues are quite evidential. So I think that his descriptions on the No.2 personality corresponds to Model A's Demonstrative function.

    I think it's also valid to understand his No.2 personality as the combination of the 4 subdued functions. So he is actually talking about the subdued functions here. But it turns out that his discussions are mostly related to the Demonstrative and for himself, his discussions here are mostly related to Ni. He discussed the ingoring function in another way.
    Last edited by CR400AF; 09-22-2021 at 05:54 AM.

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    Jung also implied the existence of the ignoring function: I have explained it in another thread https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Original-Texts

    the Ignoring function


    So I will keep concise. The following two quotations from Psychological Typesare corresponding to the Ignoring function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung on Si-leading types
    The too-low is raised a little, the too-high is made a little lower; the enthusiastic is damped, the extravagant restrained; and the unusual brought within the ‘correct’ formula: all this in order to keep the influence of the object within the necessary bounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jung on Fi-leading types
    A superficial judgment might well be betrayed, by a rather cold and reserved demeanour, into denying all feeling to this type. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, her feelings are intensive rather than extensive.
    Actually there are other clues. For instance when discussing Te he described how Ti is ignored. When discussing Ti he showed how Te is ignored.

    Jung's descriptions on Model A: Summary

    In summary, Jung described at least 7 of the 8 functions. I haven't find PoLR in Jung's text yet. Probably it's due to the fact that I'm not reading carefully enough. Also I am not aware of the detailed descriptions of the activating function. This is possible since Jung mostly only discussed the leading functions and Model A extended his system to 16 types.

    Here's what I currently get. If you have any other quotations, discussions are welcomed.

    1-Leading: Jung discussed and corresponds to Model A.
    2-Creative: Jung labeled it as a possible auxiliary function. I am pretty sure that Jung discussed in lectures in both 1925 and 1935 but I don't remember it in details.
    3-Role: Jung hinted for it in the 8th volumn of THe Collected Works of C.G.Jung. It's the same as the Role in Model A.
    4-PoLR: I haven't been aware of it in Jung's texts yet.
    5-Suggestive: Jung labeled it as Anima and his descriptions corresponds to suggestive pretty well. Especially his discussions in the Tavistock Lectures.
    6-Activating: Jung mentioned it when discussing his Anima. He also mentioned the existence of this function in his circle drawing. I don't remember it in details currently.
    7-Ignoring: Jung described how the ignoring function works in Psychological Types. It's the same as the Ignoring in Model A.
    8-Demonstrative: Jung discussed his own Demonstrative function, labelling it as his No.2 personality in his Memories, Dreams, Reflections. It corresponds to Model A's Demonstrative function pretty well.

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    Good post.

    Out of curiosity, @CR400AF, since you type yourself LII, do you relate to what Jung described here? I'd be curious to hear your personal thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Good post.

    Out of curiosity, @CR400AF, since you type yourself LII, do you relate to what Jung described here? I'd be curious to hear your personal thoughts.
    Not that much although there's something experience. I'm good at daydreaming and when I was planning my career and when I was trying to choose whether to pursue a scientifc career, I had some extremely long-term perspective and long-term predictions, which were somewhat negative and it was leading me out of the scientific area. But finally I overcame it. I'm not sure whether this is somewhat similar to Jung's experience but I'm sure that it's not as vivid and as aware as Jung.

    Also for a lot of other things I have a extremely long-term perspective although I value possibilities. I personally attribute it to Ni-demonstrative.

    I think Jung has his N functions strengthed. If the contact/inert subtype is valid he should be LII-Ne. When I took the shortened Talanov test I also got a higher Ne and lower Ti score comparing with standard LII, I am not very sure whether I could be LII-Ne or not because I think I'm best at my Ti clearly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CR400AF View Post

    Here's what I currently get. If you have any other quotations, discussions are welcomed.


    5-Suggestive: Jung labeled it as Anima and his descriptions corresponds to suggestive pretty well. Especially
    Nice work. Jung labels the suggestive the "Inferior function". He discusses it a lot in PT. I don't think Anima should be identified with the suggestive, but I believe the function is connected to both the Anima and the Shadow. It's difficult to put the suggestive to use, because it works automatically (unconsciously) and is unadapted. Unconscious material is entangled with it.

    Anima is the archetype that carries the image of the "eternal feminine". It's responsible for romantic longing in men.

    I haven't read the Tavistock lectures yet.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)

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    his Ni Fe was repressed due to the sociocultural environment. Fi couldn't be expressed either so he had to indulge in Ti. Ni is unconscious by default. Ni often can't explain their insights. To avoid being branded as insane and punished. He used Ti that's also very closely related to language and speaking. Ni absorption also likely allowed him to uncover the pattern of how Ti works to assume itLIIs have to repress Fe often to be "men" which is what makes their type Ti dom in the first place. He was in a schizoid Ni Ti loop. Personality split in 2 was strong devaluing of his Ni he failed to fully reconcile with. He was searching for meaning/individuation. He was stuck in individuation process making him say that it happens across all life time. That's a common LII problem.
    i'm afraid it will hurt like hell, i am afraid of screaming and i am afraid of crying, i am afraid of forgetting but i'm not afraid of dying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Nice work. Jung labels the suggestive the "Inferior function". He discusses it a lot in PT. I don't think Anima should be identified with the suggestive, but I believe the function is connected to both the Anima and the Shadow. It's difficult to put the suggestive to use, because it works automatically (unconsciously) and is unadapted. Unconscious material is entangled with it.

    Anima is the archetype that carries the image of the "eternal feminine". It's responsible for romantic longing in men.

    I haven't read the Tavistock lectures yet.
    You are correct. I made a mistake here. It's Beebe who label functions as archetypes and I'm against it. I just analyzed his definitions to type him a few days ago so I made this mistake here.

    I understand archetypes simply as things in the collective uncounscious. The psyshic structure of the 8 functions are also inborn manners of our apprehension so they are connected to the collective uncounscious but they are not necessarily directly related to the archetypes discovered by Jung. Jung didn't claim that the archetypes are functions and there are way more archetypes than functions.

    In Tavistock Lectures, Jung stated that T types could be controled by F. He said similar things in PT but he especially emphasized this point in the Tavistock Lectures. I think it's a key point. It shows that super-id functions want information from others, hence they are suggestible. Probably it's better to translate Suggestive as Suggestible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CR400AF View Post
    2-Creative: Jung labeled it as a possible auxiliary function. I am pretty sure that Jung discussed in lectures in both 1925 and 1935 but I don't remember it in details.
    Maybe you knew this already but in PT he talks about it at the end of chapter X. If I read this correctly he also mentions the activating function. (The conscious and unconscious functions form pairs)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    11. The Principal and Auxiliary Functions

    In the foregoing descriptions I have no desire to give my readers the impression that such pure types occur at all frequently in actual practice. The are, as it were, only Galtonesque family-portraits, which sum up in a cumulative image the common and therefore typical characters, stressing these disproportionately, while the individual features are just as disproportionately effaced. Accurate investigation of the individual case consistently reveals the fact that, in conjunction with the most differentiated function, another function of secondary importance, and therefore of inferior differentiation in consciousness, is constantly present, and is a -- relatively determining factor. [p. 514]
    For the sake of clarity let us again recapitulate: The products of all the functions can be conscious, but we speak of the consciousness of a function only when not merely its application is at the disposal of the will, but when at the same time its principle is decisive for the orientation of consciousness. The latter event is true when, for instance, thinking is not a mere esprit de l'escalier, or rumination, but when its decisions possess an absolute validity, so that the logical conclusion in a given case holds good, whether as motive or as guarantee of practical action, without the backing of any further evidence. This absolute sovereignty always belongs, empirically, to one function alone, and can belong only to one function, since the equally independent intervention of another function would necessarily yield a different orientation, which would at least partially contradict the first. But, since it is a vital condition for the conscious adaptation-process that constantly clear and unambiguous aims should be in evidence, the presence of a second function of equivalent power is naturally forbidden' This other function, therefore, can have only a secondary importance, a fact which is also established empirically. Its secondary importance consists in the fact that, in a given case, it is not valid in its own right, as is the primary function, as an absolutely reliable and decisive factor, but comes into play more as an auxiliary or complementary function. Naturally only those functions can appear as auxiliary whose nature is not opposed to the leading function. For instance, feeling can never act as the second function by the side of thinking, because its nature stands in too strong a contrast to thinking. Thinking, if it is to be real thinking and true to its own principle, must scrupulously exclude feeling. This, of course, does not exclude the fact that individuals certainly exist in whom thinking and feeling stand upon the same [p. 515] level, whereby both have equal motive power in con~sdousness. But, in such a case, there is also no question of a differentiated type, but merely of a relatively undeveloped thinking and feeling. Uniform consciousness and unconsciousness of functions is, therefore, a distinguishing mark of a primitive mentality.
    Experience shows that the secondary function is always one whose nature is different from, though not antagonistic to, the leading function : thus, for example, thinking, as primary function, can readily pair with intuition as auxiliary, or indeed equally well with sensation, but, as already observed, never with feeling. Neither intuition nor sensation are antagonistic to thinking, i.e. they have not to be unconditionally excluded, since they are not, like feeling, of similar nature, though of opposite purpose, to thinking -- for as a judging function feeling successfully competes with thinking -- but are functions of perception, affording welcome assistance to thought. As soon as they reached the same level of differentiation as thinking, they would cause a change of attitude, which would contradict the tendency of thinking. For they would convert the judging attitude into a perceiving one; whereupon the principle of rationality indispensable to thought would be suppressed in favour of the irrationality of mere perception. Hence the auxiliary function is possible and useful only in so far as it serves the leading function, without making any claim to the autonomy of its own principle.
    For all the types appearing in practice, the principle holds good that besides the conscious main function there is also a relatively unconscious, auxiliary function which is in every respect different from the nature of the main function. From these combinations well-known pictures arise, the practical intellect for instance paired with sensation, the speculative intellect breaking through [p. 516] with intuition, the artistic intuition which selects. and presents its images by means of feeling judgment, the philosophical intuition which, in league with a vigorous intellect, translates its vision into the sphere of comprehensible thought, and so forth.
    A grouping of the unconscious functions also takes place in accordance with the relationship of the conscious functions. Thus, for instance, an unconscious intuitive feeling attitude may correspond with a conscious practical intellect, whereby the function of feeling suffers a relatively stronger inhibition than intuition. This peculiarity, however, is of interest only for one who is concerned with the practical psychological treatment of such cases. But for such a man it is important to know about it. For I have frequently observed the way in which a physician, in the case for instance of an exclusively intellectual subject, will do his utmost to develop the feeling function directly out of the unconscious. This attempt must always come to grief, since it involves too great a violation of the conscious standpoint. Should such a violation succeed, there ensues a really compulsive dependence of the patient upon the physician, a 'transference' which can be amputated only by brutality, because such a violation robs the patient of a standpoint -- his physician becomes his standpoint. But the approach to the unconscious and to the most repressed function is disclosed, as it were, of itself, and with more adequate protection of the conscious standpoint, when the way of development is via the secondary function-thus in the case of a rational type by way of the irrational function. For this lends the conscious standpoint such a range and prospect over what is possible and imminent that consciousness gains an adequate protection against the destructive effect of the unconscious. Conversely, an irrational type demands a stronger development of the rational auxiliary function [p. 517] represented in consciousness, in order to be sufficiently prepared to receive the impact of the unconscious.
    The unconscious functions are in an archaic, animal state. Their symbolical appearances in dreams and phantasies usually represent the battle or coming encounter of two animals or monsters.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)

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