Wanting People to Be Your Dual
Do you ever find yourself wanting people to be your dual? For example, when I'm at a social gathering, I subconsciously expect people to come to me and initiate contact (ie. I'm expecting someone to pick up my slack and be more Se). I also want people to have integrity (ie. mobilizing Fi).
If so, how do you resolve the disconnect when the people you're with aren't your dual?
You make chicken salad out of chicken shit. Case in point, members from your own club can make for cool friends. You & your semi-dual can surprise one another with a somewhat quirky way of getting to a similar goal. I theorize that each relation within the socion can have its benefit. Though I wouldn't recommend long winded relations with a non-dual, not every friend one has will or should be a dual.
You're correctly typed.Originally Posted by Stray Cat
Hm, idk how to think of this.
I guess having lived around people mostly of Fe quadras, I wasn't exactly able to realisticaly expect duality from anyone.
I recently realized talking to Fe valuer tends to stress me, while I'm much more chill with Fi valuers, even happy for no reason. I was so used to trying to fit into Fe expectations, I didn't realize anything else was possible for a long time.
I think my life has made this less likely for me, but it's clear I naturaly am more in tune with certain types than others and would like more of them in my life.
I don't think I could surround myself with only duals or Fi peeps, I find too much value in having representants of every types around and wouldn't want them to act as my dual, that would be lame and sad.
In a way duality feels more like a natural need than a want. I remember when cute and nice SEE hunk helped me lift something cuz he saw I was having trouble with it and I think I attracted him with my victimy princess charms. I remember SLE friend got annoyed if other people bullied me too much and stopped other people from doing that with Se. With my benefactors, (ESI) we often have interesting social conversations. and of course I naturally attract hot aggressive Chads who know how to be sexually dominant but that's TMI.
but yeah sometimes like if I'm around a conflicting type this doesn't happen. "Lift that yourself and stop playing victim, u shouldn't have any trouble with that you're a man" with a stern bitch face. and then I'm like "You self righteous Delta cunt- you're nowhere near as moral as you think you are you fucking bitch, I will destroy your pristine reputation by revealing to other people what a worthless soul you really have." *insert Buffy vs Glory cat fight*
Depends on the social gathering but if you are just 'yourself' more or less, as corny as that sounds- dual seeking functions happen naturally I think. Wanting it is like wanting it to rain, what's the point- it will happen when it's supposed to happen. I mean its the SEI lookalike in me but I kinda believe in balance & moderation. You won't meet everybody that will clash with you and you won't have some ideal super fun party time with everybody and feel completely dualized by the love either but yeah... depends on luck, setting etc. And it's not so simple. I mean yeah, throw me in a prison and I'm sure my cute gay ass will be *very* popular with the 4D Se-ego psychos there but for all the wrong reasons and it isn't love just lust. Too much duality also can enable unhealthy patterns because a person won't challenge you enough to grow. Your dual naturally loves you for who you are with you having to change the least for them but that can have a dark side where they end up enabling objectively bad things you do because they subjectively love you so much. Confliction does indeed suck because it's so heartless and soul draining often but I think you level up from fighting/defeating each other like a video game. This is so Wayne Dyer self help book-y, but you can learn and grow from everybody you meet even if it's not perfect or romantic and even if they don't give you nice fuzzy feelings.
but aww that SEE dude was so charming. /gay hearts in eyes.
I don't buy that dualization sparks an enabling mechanism. It's co-dependent person who insists on being a dirty bum that enables.
In other words, it isn't dualized relations that enable it is the co-dependence and psychologically low self-esteem of the particular individual who is too lazy to nurture their own emotional self care.
true.Too much duality also can enable unhealthy patterns because a person won't challenge you enough to grow. Your dual naturally loves you for who you are with you having to change the least for them but that can have a dark side where they end up enabling objectively bad things you do because they subjectively love you so much.
An old IEE pal recently got back in contact with me after not talking to me for many years. I got the impression she was concerned about me (but also looking for a play mate). She’s been in a successful dual couple for a long time. I told her I wasn’t sleeping well and she tried to give me advice blah blah blah. I mentioned that it was depressing being on dating apps and she ignored that comment completely and went straight back to crap advice about sleeping. Acting like her SLI dual..thinking she knows best at the same time as ignoring emotional problems..
I think many couples in secure relationships will treat people outside of their relationship poorly though. Oh but maybe now the IEE is bored in her relationship she’ll finally have to look outside of it and grow on her own?
My SEI friend goes out with an IEI male I’ve known since I was 16. He knew me before I fell apart. Sometimes I think gosh how come they’ve never spoken about me and tried to intervene/help me as couple..sorry that sounds so self-pitying but I’ve just had so many neglectful friends who watched me flailing, and I sometimes wonder if anyone ever asked/advised them about me lol. I think healthy couples probably don’t criticise each other enough and unhealthy couples just don’t talk at all lol
We probably learn a lot from close friends and even colleagues about how to grow morally and spiritually. We can even learn from bad relationships at work. I clash a lot with an ex SEE line manager and an LSE boss but I still respect them because after a while you just get to know them better. I see the good on the other side of the bad. Working for the same company and towards the same goals means you have something in common, you end up finding a way to cooperate out of a sense of duty.
Oh unless your colleague is an SEI who tortured your soul or an incredibly weird female LIE who develops an unhealthy obsession with you…and whose presence is like a thick black fog descending. I worry for some of you LIEs. Sorry sorry tangent. OH the LIE goes on about her boyfriend a lot..he sounds like possible ESI. So yeah maybe she’s another person in a dual couple acting like an entitled dick. She’s obsessed with wanting to be my pal, like she thinks she deserves to be showered with attention. She’s also had some mental health issues. I think she needs a lookalike friend to hug her or something.
Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 02-27-2022 at 08:27 AM.
I swear I can not relate to all the people here who say they don't want duality because there lives would just be too nice and couldn't grow. The amount of shitty people in this world, not even counting conflicts between types, makes a person who seems to not suck a godsend.
And what about bad relations is really all that better anyway for growth? The way to grow is by learning new things and perspectives, but nothing about bad relations actually makes that better. You can learn new things from literally any type, even identicals, the only problems is how understandable the ideas which the other person is communicating is. You don't grow by hanging out with the opposite quadra, you grow by hanging around with people who aren't shit.
You're gonna have to interact with other types whether you want to or not, so just set up the proper boundaries and communicate with them. When I get to choose who to talk with for growing, I'll be sure to talk with the person who I think has the most to teach me, and they could be any type. But when I choose who to relax and enjoy my time with with, I'll assure you that I won't have some backwards masochism driving me away from my dual.
Duality isn’t necessarily the right thing for everyone. Timing is important. It can be very very right but it might not work out if someone deeply needs a sense of being understood. Feeling loved/love is not an exact science where duality can provide the answer. Even decent dual couples will sometimes not work out.
Duality is like participation mystique. I dont agree that a dual "loves you for who you are". It's based on unconsciousness..
Identity is the relationship for true togetherness. And with the pros and cons of such a state.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
By "togetherness," what do you mean?
interesting but I don’t know maybe identity works better for some types over others. Two SEIs together sounds..cute/hot/loving lol
If you like someone by surface and initial impressions, then you'd want higher possibility to keep this sympathy in longer and more intenstive communication. When you know about factors helping to establish good long relations (IR is among factors), hence you'd prefer their to exist in such cases.
@Tallmo, I disagree that Identity is the relationship for true togetherness. I know about 29 LIEs (I just met a few more at the university) and I don’t hang out with any of them. I exchange information with them, and that’s it.
If anything, I can most clearly see that most of them are jerks who are extremely smart but have the emotional finesse of a five-year-old. Why would I want to spend time with people like that?
For the record, I do know some Identical couples, but they are all LIIs. Who, incidentally, have told me that, yes, they didn’t like the idea of Duality because it would be too painful WHEN they left them.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-27-2022 at 03:40 PM.
No. It's a Ni thing. When you're with a dual for a long enough time this happens. It doesn't happen over night or even the first few years but eventually it will. And I think usually it's the introverted partner that suffers the most, but depends on the combination. It's not a projection either, I'm basing it on other dual couples that I've observed over time.I don't buy that dualization sparks an enabling mechanism. It's co-dependent person who insists on being a dirty bum that enables.
In other words, it isn't dualized relations that enable it is the co-dependence and psychologically low self-esteem of the particular individual who is too lazy to nurture their own emotional self care.
If you had no consciouse sympathy to "duals", then those could be not your duals. Typing mistakes are common.
Instead of rejecting basic Socionics theory to fit your experience, study to use it better.
I recommend you to create typing theme to check own type, for the beginning.
lol I don't mind a lot of IEIs... but if something happens and we both subconsciously expect the other person to be a sensor for the thing, it can lead to arguements and resentment. Two F type Identicals might fair better than two T type identicals I'm not sure. Double the whammy of logical sadism seems very diffficult at times. I kinda believe in the idea that Identicals work better when one is way older so it's like an excellent mentor figure.If anything, I can most clearly see that most of them are jerks who are extremely smart but have the emotional finesse of a five-year-old. Why would I want to spend time with people like that?
Well... again, it's a Ni thing. It takes awhile for this thing to happen and it can be insidious. You're definitely right that duals/compatible peeps are better for you over-all than shitty people. Of course that's true. I've actually seen more Alphas fall victim to this thing than anything cuz of the Ne valuing and they like to live in a bubble of happy comfort. And more a thing where the Alpha extrovert destroys the Alpha introvert, but then the Alpha extrovert is depressed as well because they don't have their dual anymore.I swear I can not relate to all the people here who say they don't want duality because there lives would just be too nice and couldn't grow. The amount of shitty people in this world, not even counting conflicts between types, makes a person who seems to not suck a godsend.
You do seem to be gathering info through Ni's probability and Se's personal, yet objective, concrete evidence but you are also referring to human psychology within the context of absolutes. You cannot predict human behavior in absolutes.
What @Baqer was talking about was, not only avoiding stagnation, but actively taking agency over one's own emotionally. What you seem to be implying is that duals have no agency, that he or she is psychologically pigeonholed into co-dependence.
I think that we subconsciously expect other people to be our Duals, because Duals are usually sympathetic to us and offer support without stepping on our toes, and who doesn’t want that?
Unfortunately, most people are not our Duals. We find ourselves expelled from Paradise and are forced to wander among strangers in a strange land.
On my first Match date with my last ESI-Fi GF, she looked soooo much like my SLI ex-wife that I thought it very likely she was an SEI. Her Si was off the scale, and she was very consistently hard to relate to.
But, she had been raised by Si people (almost certainly Deltas), was married to an LSI, and had never met an LIE, and gradually, the gears started to mesh. The meshing process was amazingly unforced.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-27-2022 at 01:41 PM.
I learned that I can't reliably type people I'm attracted to.
Bound upon me, rush upon me, I will overcome you by enduring your onset: whatever strikes against that which is firm and unconquerable merely injures itself by its own violence. Wherefore, seek some soft and yielding object to pierce with your darts.
-Seneca
When you have the same functions you have a shared experience, and you instinctively get each other. Like really get each other, not like in duality where it's more about bliss and unconscious impact.
Participation mystique can be an experience worth having though. Like I've had with duals. But should you build a relationship on that? Identity is more down to earth and real.
Two SEIs is not necessarily easy, because SEI is probably the most inefficient and unproductive type.
Well, I'm not saying that YOU should be with an identical. I was talking on a more general level about the nature of the ITRs. But I don't think all LIEs are jerks. Some are pretty nice actually.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
I think that LIEs can be nice (because we hate mean people) and charming and helpful and we can be a positive influence to those around us. I mean, on a fundamental level, I really do hate mean people and I try to make sure that everyone I meet is better off for having known me.
I do this before I know anything about the other person. It really is fundamental to me. (Although I'm not sure that other LIEs feel this way, but they generally seem to ACT this way.)
However......
When I look at other LIEs, I take the above stuff for granted and instantly look beyond that, and what I see are intransigent jerks a lot of the time. Of course, I have a different perspective than most people. I'm on the inside, looking around. Other LIEs are easy to exchange information with, but they really don't bring anything else to the table that is constructive.
Instead, their faults, which I so easily see in another person, are my faults, too, and having those faults thrown right in my face all the time is not so great.
hmm maybe. Maybe I’m getting confused with SEI/ESE mirrors. Those couples often seem quite ok and I put it down to alpha kindness and love making them last. But maybe they are just drifting along, not really that much better than other mirrors.
I heard that identical relations are most fruitful within the context of a teacher/student type dynamic. If one needs help using their lead or creative function more efficiently, it is his/her identical who can assist in that particular way.
I mentioned an IEE/SLI couple who have been together a while. The SLI had some health complications recently and apparently moved away from the IEE for a while.. seemingly to get some space from them. I think there could have been a stress element to the health problems..which clearly the IEE was not able to help him deal with that well. I think they’re ok now though.
Yeah I'm glad you see the same thing ((but we're Identicals so makes sense!)) and yes, it's usually related to health issues I've noticed. Duality is great and wonderful but I don't think it's a good idea necessarily to just stay in bed with a dual for days on end in a timely decorated house and ignore everything/everybody else too much. Duality is still objectively 'the best.'I mentioned an IEE/SLI couple who have been together a while. The SLI had some health complications recently and apparently moved away from the IEE for a while.. seemingly to get some space from them.
I wanted to bring up this point also, but now you did it. But I'd say it could be the opposite also. Getting your own faults thrown in your face can be a good thing (although unpleasant). Then you might have to start doing something about it. Jung said that he preferred to send patients to therapists who had the same flaws, because "If two idiots work together they will end up in so much trouble that at least one of them will start to think" (or something like that). I guess he was talking about weak thinkers in this case, but the same could be true for weak feelers. I'm just saying that this perspective is possible also.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
The same couple seem to be obsessing over finding the perfect place to live. They have money as far as I know…I don’t mean to be too bitchy about them though. It’s nice the IEE reached out to me..but I mean maybe if she did it a bit sooner, she’d have a lil play mate. Play mates are cool..I can’t imagine a life without IEEs/SEIs..etc even if I had a dual.
@EIE, I'm guessing from some of your writing that you might be sx-first, as am I. I don't know what the problem is, but when I'm with a female LSI, I'm thinking about the sex that will inevitably happen if I choose to hang out with her long enough. But with a Dual, I don't actually get sexually turned on right away. At least, I haven't so far with any of the three or four possible ESIs I've dated.
For me, it's more like I have to make an effort to be with the Dual until they start to see some value in me and to trust me somewhat. I'm pretty sure therefore that they don't see me as a very sexual person at first, either.
With the last ESI, we went from hugs to kisses over a period of months, then finally to the point where I just told her I wanted to have sex with her.
She seemed OK with that and said, "Where?"
"How about on the bed?"
"Which side should I be on?"
"How about the far side, because I'm left-handed."
ESI: This seems strange to me.
LIE: How so?
ESI: This is just so straightforward.
LIE: How did you have sex with your previous boyfriends?
ESI: It just happened.
Well, her previous boyfriends weren't robots whose lives consisted of contracts.
I don't like the fact that I don't have a romantic bone in my body, but I'm playing the hand I was dealt, and while LSIs seem to play right along with me, ESIs are only jarred by my approach.
my guess is she may think she doesn't know best about the emotional problem or that she can influence u about it so it's something u have to figure out urself. like it would be offensive for her to tell u how to feel.
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
duals scare me bc i have to keep a facade around them so they dont get triggered or offended or feel like they need to keep a facade about me. they dont know what they feel and i cant pressure them to spit it out yet its like they want to talk about it but im not allowed to start the discussion about that.
its like they need to be told its ok to talk about their emotions but i cant voice that im the kind of person who cares about that (not them specifically) publicly bc if i do they will be pressured to not associate with me and even bully me which can escalate into something worse. at the same time i cant know how they would perceive it if i asked them about it privately so that they'd feel like i could spread their shit around which would in turn make them spread rumours about me or reject me to not be vulnerable.
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
Hm. You bring what I probably know unconsciously, up to the surface. I’m not strong enough to be friends with her again yet. Maybe one day. We had a lot of fun in the years we were friends. I’m on a good path now, but I have to focus my energy on the people who have helped me get to that point, because they’re the ones I trust. It’s a shame when you have to let people go, when they didn’t mean to hurt you. But sometimes it feels too personal, your pain is all mixed up with your connections to them.
ive had a lot of difficulty letting go of grudges, a lot of self hate, and then a lot for not being able to form attachments or hold on to grudges and forgetting things.
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
@Bethany, it sounds to me like the sleeping problems might actually stem from your stress. Also, I can quite well imagine why you would want to limit the time that you spend with this IEE acquintance, because they don't sound particularly empathetic to you. You deserve someone who actually listens to what you tell.
What caused your SEE ex-line manager and you to clash so much, despite being semi-duals and you having much experience with SEEs via your brother?
Eh... Why, because I think that most LIEs are mentally stable?
It sounds to me like you're mostly experiencing her psychological troubles at the moment, not necessarily her being a LIE. One tip, if the LIE comes around, act as if you're very busy at work, chances are that she'll have the courtesy to not interrept you then, because she neither would liked to be so herself. If she does approach you, just apologize and explain to her that you currently don't have the time, because you you're busy finishing your tasks. Don't provide her too many details, however, on what your tasks are, because that will motivate her to advice you on how to do them or even take over, as she would do with her dual.
In all honesty, this sounds to me a bit like projection, because we know that you have a thing for SEIs, so double the SEIs is double the fun for you.
The introverted partner, or the partner with primary or secondary Ni?
This so much. This Wednesday I was present at the North Atlantic Treaty Organization ( NATO ) lecture with the NATO chairman, Jens Stoltenberg, former NATO secretary general and minister of defence, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, and Dutch prime-minister Mark Rutte. Including the other attendants, it was pretty much a LIE meeting, except for the ESE moderator, a SEI expert of the panel, and an ESI one.
Originally mr Stoltenberg was planned to be present in-person, but due to the still imminent war, he remained in the enormous NATO headquarters in Brussels. Instead my prime-minister held the speech he had prepared, while we waited for mr Stoltenberg to come online through video feed.
The speech of my prime-minister was awkward to say the least, because he didn't even know Finland's exact history with the Soviety Union. Instead of telling about how the Finnish won the Winter War against the Soviet Union, he misremembered them being part of the Warschaw Pact! He had time and staff members to prepare his speech, and despite having studied history for 7 years, he did not know! It felt like I was listening to a first years student who just finished high school present his very first PowerPoint presentation at university! It was pathetic and I was ashamed! He believed that he could just wing it, but the entire room was filled with military experts, war historians, and diplomats! They all saw this grotesque failure!
I know my prime-minister to be LIE for sure, though, because normally he is able to present himself as quite knowledgeable, even when I call his bluff. His quick wit and flexilibility in debate have saved his skin multiple times already. I do not only base myself on what I have seen on television of him and what I read regarding him, but also my experiences with him in vivo, as this was the fourth time that I met him in meatspace. The last time was before the COVID pandemic, when I sat right behind him, we shook hands, and conversed shortly before he held his lecture.
Nah, it just turns into a business relationship. Afterwards we go our separate ways, until one of the identical thinkers joins a project for which they could use the skill set of the other. At that moment contact is re-established.
Last edited by Armitage; 03-01-2022 at 08:43 AM.
@Armitage yeah it is stress related- it's improving. Hm sometimes I think I have problems with SEEs because I had issues with my SEE sibling growing up.. I am a bit of a ni subtype so maybe there's a weird dynamic because of that. My SEE line manager definitely has some clear mental health problems. She wasn't trustworthy, she could be aggressive and sometimes I could sense her discomfort about my personality (she's a lot more dynamic than I am), also she's not good at discussing emotional problems..it's weird because that's not discouraged in my work place at all. However, we parted on good terms- I respect her management style in other ways.
I'm not working with the LIE or SEI anymore..working on a different site. My work place seems to be hiring a lot of LIES these days...there is another LIE I wasn't getting on with but we are now! I told him off....he mellowed a bit...and then he suddenly seemed like a far nicer person than I ever thought he was. I don't think the female LIE and I are meant to be friends though. I had a bad feeling about her from the start. She is a nice person and we did manage to get on ok, even though I kinda dreaded seeing her. There just seemed to be too many communication misunderstandings between us. It's not really personal...it happens with supervision, ESEs have lost interest in me before. The supervisee can be more valuable than the supervisor sometimes.
Ohhh if I could find an SEI friend again in this life as special as the one who broke my heart I would be so so happy. I have a gay male IEE friend at least, he's adorable and reminds me a tiny bit of the SEI.
Odd, because being a Ni-subtype should have made it only easier for your brother and you to get along, @Bethany. Perhaps these clashes during your youth with your brother might be particular to the way you were raised. But this is all conjecture from my side, which is way too private to delve deeper into on a public forum, so I'll stop my speculating here.
Ah, alright, I originally thought that she was the LIE you recently mentioned getting along better with, so I was suprised to hear that the situation had regressed. But since it turned out to be a different LIE, I'm glad to hear that LIE 2 and you are still getting along.And I'm also happy for you that you could change work sites, in order to evade the LIE and SEI with whom you felt uncomfortable.
LOL, if your gay IEE friend is kind, single, and sporty, I'm open for business.Just kidding, in general I enjoy most IEEs more as friends, and it'd be too far away probably.
That is a thing of the past for me. Now I know two IEI dudes and I can see that they are far from perfect. Sure, I'd like me an IEI-Fe in Ariana Grande's body, yet I'm okay with my LSE gf (LIE is also possible for her). I think, I have matured heavily during the last 5-10 years.
I think there's a lot of truth here.
Taking the good points for granted is a rather important thing to keep in mind for me.
Idk if that's for every type, or for everyone, but I've noticed a lot of people downplay the strenghts they have, both in themselves and others who share them, thinking others who have different strenghts have it so much better and easier, disregarding that those people also have weaknesses to deal with.
It's as if it comes so easy, it's invisible.
It's like breathing.
When I see identicals, I get scared because they often look like dark mirrors. I made choices to not be like that, or at least, be as little like that as I can.
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