Adventures in Dating

[Tallmo]

Date no. 7 with miss LII and picnic no. 2 (by the water)

Things have been going pretty well so I think I might stop sharing things online in the future.

We went on a date to an island nearby. I asked her what she wanted to do and she suggested the island. I came straight from work so I figured we might be hungry so we made it a picnic this time also (our 2nd picnic so far).

The island lies close to the city, only a 10 min boat trip, but it feels far away. Nature, cliffs, the sea and the horizon. Lots of people come there to spend the day in the summer.

She wore a vintage dress, maybe 1920'ies. One can tell she is interested in how to dress. She often dresses relaxed with taste but slightly bohemian. I wore linen pants and shirt.

I felt wiser now about what to bring to a picnic. Tried to keep it simple. Baguette, papaya, guacamole. Easy to eat. A small bottle of sparkling wine. The place was great. The cliffs on the south side of the island, facing the sea. Not too many people.

One can't see the city from here, just the sea. Occasionally some bigger passenger ships pass by, to and from Estonia. But otherwise a pretty isolated place.

A very hot evening. We didn't go swimming because she forgot to bring a swimsuit. We were both wearing sunglasses which we had to remove when kissing.

We spent about three hours on the island. Luckily it was late in the evening so didn't get sunburned.

I still can't figure her out. She can be really chill but sometimes also tense and nervous, maybe shy. Sometimes she becomes nerdy and keeps monologues about some details. Often she interrupts me before I can finish what I'm saying. But it's not always like that. I think she is enneagram 5. She likes to take photographs, as if she was documenting her activities.

Tallmo's picnic tips:

- Keep it simple: baguette, cheese, and some fruit like papaya, watermelon. Guacamole.
- You can prepare the papaya before by cutting it in half and removing the annoying seeds.
- Bring a sharp knife if you need to cut the fruit just before eating it. Cutting the fruit together can be fun.
- Bring paper plates and cups. Too heavy to bring real plates.
- Use a cooler bag to keep everything fresh
- A small bottle of sparkling wine / champagne elevates the mood.
- Bring water in case you get thirsty.
- Don't forget a blanket or mat to sit on.
- Don't forget napkins.
- Bring a plastic bag and put all the trash in it, then throw it away on your way home.
- Some cold dessert is great if you can keep it cool so it doesn't melt.

[Adam Strange]

Date no. 7 with miss LII and picnic no. 2 (by the water)

Things have been going pretty well so I think I might stop sharing things online in the future.

We went on a date to an island nearby. I asked her what she wanted to do and she suggested the island. I came straight from work so I figured we might be hungry so we made it a picnic this time also (our 2nd picnic so far).

The island lies close to the city, only a 10 min boat trip, but it feels far away. Nature, cliffs, the sea and the horizon. Lots of people come there to spend the day in the summer.

She wore a vintage dress, maybe 1920'ies. One can tell she is interested in how to dress. She often dresses relaxed with taste but slightly bohemian. I wore linen pants and shirt.

I felt wiser now about what to bring to a picnic. Tried to keep it simple. Baguette, papaya, guacamole. Easy to eat. A small bottle of sparkling wine. The place was great. The cliffs on the south side of the island, facing the sea. Not too many people.

One can't see the city from here, just the sea. Occasionally some bigger passenger ships pass by, to and from Estonia. But otherwise a pretty isolated place.

A very hot evening. We didn't go swimming because she forgot to bring a swimsuit. We were both wearing sunglasses which we had to remove when kissing.

We spent about three hours on the island. Luckily it was late in the evening so didn't get sunburned.

I still can't figure her out. She can be really chill but sometimes also tense and nervous, maybe shy. Sometimes she becomes nerdy and keeps monologues about some details. Often she interrupts me before I can finish what I'm saying. But it's not always like that. I think she is enneagram 5. She likes to take photographs, as if she was documenting her activities.

Tallmo's picnic tips:

- Keep it simple: baguette, cheese, and some fruit like papaya, watermelon. Guacamole.
- You can prepare the papaya before by cutting it in half and removing the annoying seeds.
- Bring a sharp knife if you need to cut the fruit just before eating it. Cutting the fruit together can be fun.
- Bring paper plates and cups. Too heavy to bring real plates.
- Use a cooler bag to keep everything fresh
- A small bottle of sparkling wine / champagne elevates the mood.
- Bring water in case you get thirsty.
- Don't forget a blanket or mat to sit on.
- Don't forget napkins.
- Bring a plastic bag and put all the trash in it, then throw it away on your way home.
- Some cold dessert is great if you can keep it cool so it doesn't melt.

@Tallmo, I think that all LIIs are e5. I think LII-e5 the best, cleanest correlation between Socionics and the Enneagram. Most sociotypes can be one, two, or three enneatypes, but not LII.

I think it's good that you like her but can't figure her out. It means that you have common values, but your thinking processes take very different paths. This means that you can work together, but won't step on each other's toes. I feel the same way about my Duals, and they about me.

[Tallmo]

@Tallmo, I think that all LIIs are e5. I think LII-e5 the best, cleanest correlation between Socionics and the Enneagram. Most sociotypes can be one, two, or three enneatypes, but not LII.

My oldest friend is LII. He is not e5, but rather e6. Got it confirmed by other people also.

I think it's good that you like her but can't figure her out. It means that you have common values, but your thinking processes take very different paths. This means that you can work together, but won't step on each other's toes. I feel the same way about my Duals, and they about me.

Yes, I also think we could work together well. But I still think she might have some connection problem, and I'm wondering how serious it is. Like she becomes too nerdy in her thought processes. It's hard to explain, but it feels annoying and I've read e5:s have this tendency. But I see glimpses of other things also. It's going to be a long process getting to know her and becoming more intimate with each other. It's already almost 1 month since we met the first time and we haven't gotten very far, although things are moving forward. (but it wasn't until the last two dates that things started really happen)

[Adam Strange]

@Tallmo, you might be at the point where you should start thinking about what can go wrong in the relationship, in order to avoid it. Certainly, I should have investigated that before dating ESIs.

I've already talked about why my LII sister divorced her husbands; it was because they didn't listen to her in the area of spending money.
I've also seen her completely cut out people in her life because they "betrayed her secrets" by telling a third party something which the third party thought was innocuous, but my sister thought should never be shared. (So, I'd be careful about telling your LII about this forum. I mean, she might be curious, or she might go nuclear. I have no idea because I'm her Extinguishment partner and I have zero insight into an LII's thinking process. Instead, I'd get opinions on this subject from the other LIIs on the forum.)

My sister cut our parents out of her life because they fired the caregiver that she found for them.

Cutting people out of their lives without a backward glance seems to be the LII go-to method of handling relationship problems.* @FreelancePoliceman wrote a great post on that recently, and it's worth reading.

Other than that, best of luck to you. I find LII females to be smart, attractive, and mostly fun to be around, even when they are staring inward. They are quite rewarding to know, and you'll never find a type that has a more emotionally objective view of the world, which can be incredibly useful if you tend to erroneously believe, as I do, that people always have hidden motives. This belief infinitely complicates relations. Sometimes, things really do have simple explanations.


*I suspect, but do not know, that social ostracism is the most effective lever that an LII can use on her Duals, the ESEs. But I'm on the outside, looking in. Freelance and @Echo will be able to say what things look like from the inside, looking out.

[Braingel]

LII’s can be 5’s, 6’s, and also 9’s with a 5 fix, though 954 would be atypical. It may be possible to find a core 1 LII, but is a bit weird being Se polr for that to be.

[Tallmo]

@Tallmo, you might be at the point where you should start thinking about what can go wrong in the relationship, in order to avoid it. Certainly, I should have investigated that before dating ESIs.

I should start saving money. She wants a serious relationship, a family and kids, if possible. That's why she is dating. In the beginning she talked about it and also asked if I want kids. I said that I'm open for it, and I guess I passed the test. But back then it felt more hypothetical. Now since attraction has become a factor things are getting real, but also more sensitive, she is considering me as a future partner for life.

I've also seen her completely cut out people in her life because they "betrayed her secrets" by telling a third party something which the third party thought was innocuous, but my sister thought should never be shared. (So, I'd be careful about telling your LII about this forum.

I've already told her about the forum, but just in one sentence. But no details like the forum name or anything that matters.

My sister cut our parents out of her life because they fired the caregiver that she found for them.

Seems a bit harsh.

Cutting people out of their lives without a backward glance seems to be the LII go-to method of handling relationship problems.* @FreelancePoliceman wrote a great post on that recently, and it's worth reading.

ok. It can be possible to come back into the life of a LII, from what I've seen.

Other than that, best of luck to you. I find LII females to be smart, attractive, and mostly fun to be around, even when they are staring inward. They are quite rewarding to know, and you'll never find a type that has a more emotionally objective view of the world,

Thanks. Right now I'm mostly relying on the chemistry between us. She is smart, and that's nice, but even nicer is the feeling that I can be myself, while at the same time I'm changing slightly as I get to know her. But there will be problems.

[Echo]

LII’s can be 5’s, 6’s, and also 9’s with a 5 fix, though 954 would be atypical. It may be possible to find a core 1 LII, but is a bit weird being Se polr for that to be.

I'm 548, which I read was the ‘darkest’ tritype. Go figure.

[Echo]

@Tallmo, you might be at the point where you should start thinking about what can go wrong in the relationship, in order to avoid it. Certainly, I should have investigated that before dating ESIs.

I've already talked about why my LII sister divorced her husbands; it was because they didn't listen to her in the area of spending money.
I've also seen her completely cut out people in her life because they "betrayed her secrets" by telling a third party something which the third party thought was innocuous, but my sister thought should never be shared. (So, I'd be careful about telling your LII about this forum. I mean, she might be curious, or she might go nuclear. I have no idea because I'm her Extinguishment partner and I have zero insight into an LII's thinking process. Instead, I'd get opinions on this subject from the other LIIs on the forum.)

My sister cut our parents out of her life because they fired the caregiver that she found for them.

Cutting people out of their lives without a backward glance seems to be the LII go-to method of handling relationship problems.* @FreelancePoliceman wrote a great post on that recently, and it's worth reading.

Other than that, best of luck to you. I find LII females to be smart, attractive, and mostly fun to be around, even when they are staring inward. They are quite rewarding to know, and you'll never find a type that has a more emotionally objective view of the world, which can be incredibly useful if you tend to erroneously believe, as I do, that people always have hidden motives. This belief infinitely complicates relations. Sometimes, things really do have simple explanations.


*I suspect, but do not know, that social ostracism is the most effective lever that an LII can use on her Duals, the ESEs. But I'm on the outside, looking in. Freelance and @Echo will be able to say what things look like from the inside, looking out.

I'll let you know if I ever meet my dual! Although I am meeting a man for a date tomorrow who I'm pretty sure is one so fingers crossed!

that being said, I suspect that it’s more that the only people who can penetrate our wall of silence are our duals who simply don’t give up. I’ve been remotely texting this guy for four months and he still wants to meet up despite the fact that I’ve been too busy for ages. my social laziness requires a very determined partner.

[Tallmo]

@Tallmo, you might be at the point where you should start thinking about what can go wrong in the relationship, in order to avoid it. Certainly, I should have investigated that before dating ESIs.

If you have any advise about this I'm listening. This might be the most important time in my life.

So take money seriously and don't betray secrets.

My biggest concern is actually that I won't be attentive enough when needed. Too much escapism for many years. I might need to quit this forum also, but I'll stay in the book club.

Many things can go wrong in a relationship but I believe that people can grow and not everything is determined by type. We are not robots.

Thanks for your advise.

[Adam Strange]

If you have any advise about this I'm listening. This might be the most important time in my life.

So take money seriously and don't betray secrets.

My biggest concern is actually that I won't be attentive enough when needed. Too much escapism for many years. I might need to quit this forum also, but I'll stay in the book club.

Many things can go wrong in a relationship but I believe that people can grow and not everything is determined by type. We are not robots.

Thanks for your advise.

Hi, Tallmo.

I already told you all that I know in my posts above. The only thing I can add to that, is to look up LII-SEI interactions on the web and see what people say goes wrong with these relations.

I would do this right away, and would repeat the process once a month, just to see if there is anything new to learn. I would also check in with my prospective mate frequently, just to make sure that we were on the same track.
That "don't betray secrets" is my interpretation of what went wrong. I have no idea how she saw it, which is why you really need to ask her what she thinks, and respect what she says.

To me, getting married is a lot like buying a house or starting a new venture which could bankrupt me. It's a risk, but it's not "hard", in the sense that you physically can't do it. You can totally do it. But will you do it well?

Information, and the experience of other people who have previously done it well, counts here. You already have an easy interaction with her, so that part is all good.

When I bought my first house, the price was at the maximum that I could possibly afford, and turned out to actually be more than I could afford, and that caused me more trouble than I can say. But the process of buying the house was simple. I just stepped up and promised the bank that I would make regular payments, without fail, until the loan was paid off. And I did that. I never doubted that I wanted a house.

It worked out. So did my marriage, mostly. I certainly would call it a success in the important areas, and she and I still help each other when necessary, so it was a net positive.

Here are some links I just found.

https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ISFp-(LII-SEI)
https://www.gyfted.me/sociotype-intertypes/lii-sei
https://www.reddit.com/r/Socionics/c...polr_function/
https://wikisocion.github.io/content...ic_quadra.html

[Echo]

Hi, Tallmo.

I already told you all that I know in my posts above. The only thing I can add to that, is to look up LII-SEI interactions on the web and see what people say goes wrong with these relations.

I would do this right away, and would repeat the process once a month, just to see if there is anything new to learn. I would also check in with my prospective mate frequently, just to make sure that we were on the same track.
That "don't betray secrets" is my interpretation of what went wrong. I have no idea how she saw it, which is why you really need to ask her what she thinks, and respect what she says.

To me, getting married is a lot like buying a house or starting a new venture which could bankrupt me. It's a risk, but it's not "hard", in the sense that you physically can't do it. You can totally do it. But will you do it well?

Information, and the experience of other people who have previously done it well, counts here. You already have an easy interaction with her, so that part is all good.

When I bought my first house, the price was at the maximum that I could possibly afford, and turned out to actually be more than I could afford, and that caused me more trouble than I can say. But the process of buying the house was simple. I just stepped up and promised the bank that I would make regular payments, without fail, until the loan was paid off. And I did that. I never doubted that I wanted a house.

It worked out. So did my marriage, mostly. I certainly would call it a success in the important areas, and she and I still help each other when necessary, so it was a net positive.

Here are some links I just found.

https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ISFp-(LII-SEI)
https://www.gyfted.me/sociotype-intertypes/lii-sei
https://www.reddit.com/r/Socionics/c...polr_function/
https://wikisocion.github.io/content...ic_quadra.html

Im trying to think what went wrong in my SEI/LII relationship. The sexual chemistry was great and the so was the communication but ultimately it felt like we were friends with benefits more than a couple. Our goals were completely different- It was like we were moving in tandem, but not towards the same things. In the end we fell into a friendship partly because neither one of us took the initiative to move things forward emotionally. maybe we kept waiting for the other person to do it, who knows. But we never crossed the relationship milestones so it just fizzled.

Ultimately an LII needs their partner to set the pace of the relationship and take initiative. The guys I wound up in long term things with were simply the ones who did that.

[Adam Strange]

Im trying to think what went wrong in my SEI/LII relationship. The sexual chemistry was great and the so was the communication but ultimately it felt like we were friends with benefits more than a couple. Our goals were completely different- It was like we were moving in tandem, but not towards the same things. In the end we fell into a friendship partly because neither one of us took the initiative to move things forward emotionally. maybe we kept waiting for the other person to do it, who knows. But we never crossed the relationship milestones so it just fizzled.

Ultimately an LII needs their partner to set the pace of the relationship and take initiative. The guys I wound up in long term things with were simply the ones who did that.

Echo, that last statement in your post perfectly describes every guy my LII sister fell in love with. They all took the initiative.

I hesitate to contaminate the SEI-LII thread here, but if you were to suppose that the Dualities of one Quadra were echoed in the others, then LII = ILI, and SEI = ESI. And certainly, every ILI that I've known wants someone to want them. Every day. The ILI will advise the SEE, but won't initiate anything.
I've also seen more ILI-ESI marriages than I have LIE-ESI, so there might be something wrong with the idea that Duality is the best relationship in all cases. A lot of people find Activity to be better.
However, I don't want to take the analogy too far.

[Echo]

Echo, that last statement in your post perfectly describes every guy my LII sister fell in love with. They all took the initiative.

I hesitate to contaminate the SEI-LII thread here, but if you were to suppose that the Dualities of one Quadra were echoed in the others, then LII = ILI, and SEI = ESI. And certainly, every ILI that I've known wants someone to want them. Every day. The ILI will advise the SEE, but won't initiate anything.
I've also seen more ILI-ESI marriages than I have LIE-ESI, so there might be something wrong with the idea that Duality is the best relationship in all cases. A lot of people find Activity to be better.
However, I don't want to take the analogy too far.

Yeah, if I look back on my past partnerships, I feel like the common thread was that the guy chose me. I never was the one who did the choosing. My mother asked me recently why I wound up in a relationship with my last ex (I was also seeing a post-doc at oxford in the beginning who she thought was a much better catch) and the only answer I could give her was that my ex sort of swept me away with his enthusiasm. She gave me a look like I was crazy. But that’s usually how it goes with me. I’m very uncertain in relationships and I need someone who is certain enough for the both of us.

[RaptorWesNet]

Bunny today was having me visualize the Olympics as walking through an Atlas. Doorways to cultures of friendly totems and calm meadows for resolution and magnets of focus helped me to feel Bunny in a way she blew rains and coats of yellow polarizing my soul.

[godslave]

Temperaments do exist, Introverts go with extroverts and opposites attract, period. Every romantic comedy applies these principles because they are true and are inscribed in the human condition. the rest is litterature...

Personally, I don't understand the dating codes in general let alone the modern dating standard (via apps) which is completely Alien to me. I mean, I've watched "You've got mail" with Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks but when it comes to modern dating, it's like I didn't get the memo...

I don't know how to built a normal romantic relationship, to follow a certain protocol or sequence. To me, the very few romantic relationshionships I had were based and started on Passion. A deep feeling of either being in love obsessionally or a very strong sexual desire induced by a certain receptivity on my part of a nonverbal cue from the partner. She has to make the first move and take the initiative though, that would be the ideal situation. That kinda sets the seduction parade in motion and the rest is on me... These early moments of the relationship in which one fans the flames of passion are second only to being consumed by the passion fire itself.

I've always had secret passions (cuz I'm F-ed up and I fear commitment) and the ladies I've been with were all older than me. I must confess that I have a "libertin" mindset when it comes to romance. That said I very easily fall in love because I am sucker for beauty. In real life back when I had a life, any kind attention or sweet smile along with a very pleasant energy from a lady that is not just a passerby (i.e. I know that I'll see her again for some reason) could make me fall in love. This particular fact about me puts things in perspective when I half-jokingly say that I'm demisexual !

Sadly for me, since the past 10 years or so, it's like I avoid any situation that could put me in a serious "in love" state. I don't allow it to happen anymore because I'm in a very bad place since about the same number of years. Paradoxically, prior to the aforementioned period of time, I've always been in love (meaning either engaged in a secret romance or about to be (I'm very patient by the way, a love parade can take years in my book)). These situations kept my life in motion so to speak, to the point of traveling to a different country just for living the passion .

I think that all my mental health issues (Hikikomori, Anxiety disorder, depression etc...) are for a significant part due to my loveless situation, basically since my last "breakup" which in my case translates as "the relationship can no longer go on because of circumstances that I can't control". I've never formally broke up with a lady.

Even though I have often dreamt of having a normal romantic relationship, the more I grow old the more I feel more and more diminished, find stuff disgusting about me (like for instance the fact that I drool in my sleep and use a T-shirt to block my jaw and keep my pillow from getting wet ! I can't imagine a lady sleeping in my bed with me because of that although it has happened extremely rarely in the past. Heck I don't even have a double bed ! Plus I feel socially handicapped, worthless.

Not long ago, the most embarrassing question one could ask me was "What do you do for living ?" or any question related to social life activity. I would usually answer "not much !". But now I don't even care and nobody has asked me that question since a long time anyway (not even my psychiatrist).

Even if I look much younger than my age and I'm a very average looking guy, I feel like I don't deserve to be loved or love anymore. I feel like it would be unfair for the lady to be with a guy like me unless it's a very groovy kind of romance . I don't want to be a burden to anyone so I don't even try to put myself in the "danger zone" anymore. Yet, to me life without passion is tasteless, that's the tragedy...

[Echo]

I think romantic comedies can be quite problematic. They can lead to unrealistic expectations. People in real life don’t have writers coming up with perfect material.

[godslave]

I think romantic comedies can be quite problematic. They can lead to unrealistic expectations. People in real life don’t have writers coming up with perfect material.

I hope that people can tell the difference between real life and entertainment. I mean, people go to the theater and watch these "romantic comedies" and all kinds of movies to escape reality for a little while, experience emotions and dream.

[Still Alive]

I hope that people can tell the difference between real life and entertainment. I mean, people go to the theater and watch these "romantic comedies" and all kinds of movies to escape reality for a little while, experience emotions and dream.

You mean IEI, not people

[godslave]

You mean IEI, not people

You're right, indeed "IEI" is not people it's a TIM !

[Echo]

Anyone know how to spot a female ILE? (I’m trying to help out an SEI friend of mine who recently got out of a supervision relationship).

[Tallmo]

Anyone know how to spot a female ILE? (I’m trying to help out an SEI friend of mine who recently got out of a supervision relationship).

One can see the Ne in the eyes. But very hard to explain verbally how to spot a type.

[Adam Strange]

Anyone know how to spot a female ILE? (I’m trying to help out an SEI friend of mine who recently got out of a supervision relationship).

I can tell you how I spot them, but it is not an entirely complimentary description, because I, like everyone, am tuned to want to back pedal away from members of the opposite Quadra. This happens not at all with LIIs, and super-hard with SEI-Si's, with the other Alphas somewhere in-between.

First, they will probably be thin, or at least have what I call "thin faces" and sharp features. They have bright, intelligent eyes which tend to shift around the environment. When you talk to them, they clearly appear to be smart and quick-witted. They seem to be quite nice, especially compared to male ILEs, who can be complete assholes. They look like they would be a lot of fun to hang out with, but they don't give a strong impression of my kind of Se sexuality. It's more like they have unending intellectual surprises in store. They often have crooked teeth, but this is not a given.

Now, the bad part, from one of their Gamma Quasi's.

Their Ne and thinness and quickness can give them a rat-like appearance. A nice, clean, very smart rat, but nevertheless.....

I feel like I can say this because an Alpha would look at an Fe-less Gamma, be unable to read any emotions in the Gamma's eyes, and conclude that they were dealing with an emotionless lizard-person.

So there you have the origin of the social pejorative, "Lizard People". It's Fe-valuers assessing Fi-valuers.

[Tallmo]

Im trying to think what went wrong in my SEI/LII relationship. The sexual chemistry was great and the so was the communication but ultimately it felt like we were friends with benefits more than a couple. Our goals were completely different- It was like we were moving in tandem, but not towards the same things. In the end we fell into a friendship partly because neither one of us took the initiative to move things forward emotionally. maybe we kept waiting for the other person to do it, who knows. But we never crossed the relationship milestones so it just fizzled.

Ultimately an LII needs their partner to set the pace of the relationship and take initiative. The guys I wound up in long term things with were simply the ones who did that.

Or it can sometimes go too far. Here's a horror story:

A LII friend of mine dated an LSE. She wanted a relationship, he was uncertain. She kept trying and trying but he found her boring. Finally he ended it. Just to get back together some time later when she she pushed him. Now they were together again and she got pregnant. He was shocked, but decided to marry her our of responsibility. The marriage was not very good. Dry and boring. She was neurotic. He handled it by being passive and submissive but not really present in the relationship. After some years when she told him she didn't love him he divorced her. Then he started dating again and found an ESE. She was fun and extremely social. He admired her. After some months he told me that she sometimes felt a little "too much". She was constantly calling him and pushing the relationship forward. Involving their kids etc. I didn't hear from him for awhile and then heard that they were going to get married. Then he didn't meet his friends for one year. Then after a year they had a party for all their friends (the ESEs idea of course) to celebrate the marriage, but the LII seemed tired and slightly depressed. Some time later their relationship ended in the most horrible way possible.

Duality is complementary but sometimes one can end up with the wrong person precisely for that reason. I think duality is connected to a lowering of consciousness when you just outsource your problematic side to the partner. It's a paradisal state, but in some sense infantile. Marie-Louise von Franz has written about this. I know how nice it can be, but my current view is that identical is maybe the best. You meet on the conscious side and then you can slowly develop the other side. That being said, I am personally open for all Alpha relations, but I am trying to emphasize personal development and maturity over type. Not everything is natural chemistry. But these things probably also depend on are you a man or woman. A SEI woman might express female virtues but a SEI man might not be that good with masculine virtues. LII man might be happier with SEI woman than LII woman with SEI man. In theory at least.

[Adam Strange]

I think romantic comedies can be quite problematic. They can lead to unrealistic expectations. People in real life don’t have writers coming up with perfect material.

It's true that people in real life don't have script writers for their lives, but The Gottman Institute has said that a common feature in all LTRs is that the couple has a great story about how they met.

A script writer would call that a "met cute" situation.

Gottman says that if a couple can't remember anything in particular about how they met, then things are not looking good for them.

Example of met-cute:
The first date I had with my ex-wife, I planned to go to a restaurant for dinner, and I had her drive my Jaguar E-type coupe because it's such a sensual experience. She didn't want to do it, but I insisted. I didn't realize that she had only gotten her driving license two years prior and was a hesitant, terrible driver. As she backed out of the driveway, she hit the brick chimney with the rear quarter panel, but then hit the gas instead of the brake, and took out the entire side of that car. But I didn't care. I really liked her. The car still worked, so I said, Let's just go get dinner.
It was only when she spun the car, trying to turn into the restaurant and instead did a four-wheel slide into the gas station, sliding sideways toward some terrified people pumping gas, that I decided to drive the car back from dinner.


Humans tell stories, to mark the remarkable events.



The car, for reference:

In all fairness, the car is very light and has the torque of a freight train, so it can slide on concrete any time you want. And also when you don't want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFfRbPirHKc
These guys were keeping it their cars on the road, but they were still sliding.

[Echo]

I can tell you how I spot them, but it is not an entirely complimentary description, because I, like everyone, am tuned to want to back pedal away from members of the opposite Quadra. This happens not at all with LIIs, and super-hard with SEI-Si's, with the other Alphas somewhere in-between.

you know it’s interesting because I’ve often thought that extinguishment relationships were more of a mirage than mirage relationships. There’s something very interesting about your Contrary at first glance. I’ve had a lot of friendships with LIEs and they’ve also been my best professional supervisors in retrospect- I’ve probably learned more from LIEs than I’ve learned from any other sociotype, so for my professional development it’s been great being around them. Of course the caveat to all this is that you have to go in to that ‘relationship’ with a good understanding of what to expect (you’ll never find emotional fulfillment there, but you can probably find a lot of intellectual fulfillment).

[CosmicCat]

Art is a great means to finding out who you are.

Art is one of the club of socials (SEI, ESE, ESI, SEE).

[End]

Art is one of the club of socials (SEI, ESE, ESI, SEE).

Fun fact: They crave constructive criticism if they aren't broken. The exact service the likes of myself provide.

"Art" is work produced to a standard. The "artist" makes a thing, but we're the ones who tell them it's up to snuff. I got an SEE brother and I'm certain that when I told him his Bass work was perfect he committed to it. He could play many an instrument, but he dedicated his efforts towards "mastery" when I told him that.

Mastery is a major commitment. 10k hours of serious practice minimum. That's what Black Belts in Martial Arts/Champion Fighters put in. What a *real* PH.D put in. What any "grandmaster" of anything put in.

Funny tangent: What is so important to you that you'd make that commitment? What's so vital to your own sense of self that you'd go that far? Find that and act upon it. I just pray it isn't Marxism. Marx made that commitment. We're all suffering the after effects of a great genius who was also willing to put in the work deceived by Satan...

[Tallmo]

Art is one of the club of socials (SEI, ESE, ESI, SEE).

In reality EIE is over-represented among artists. Lots of creative people have this type. They can be writers, musicians, painters, actors, dancers etc.

[Still Alive]

Weird then that the gifted artistic kid is usually introverted and completely ignored by most of society

[Braingel]

@SacredKnowing @Tallmo

I believe you are looking at art from two vastly different angles of pure fine, detailed sensory art and abstract art like writing..

I don’t really believe it’s good to equate art to a certain club, because there are so many forms, it is nuanced. I would overall agree that fine arts is more sensory. This recently, I took an art class and it was literally all physical observation still life, and I absolutely hated it. Not only did I hate the physical details, I just can’t track my physical surroundings well, and that shit was hard. Was too hard to get the still life objects in accurate detail and their form. My natural form is symbolism (didn’t know term until art class), which I drew a few things, but wanted refine my ability and well, I definitely don’t have it in me for that too often.


Something like literature and poetry (my natural artistic form, poetry more) is more overall NF, but the content of the poetry matters, any club can write poetry.

[Still Alive]

any club can write poetry.

can they?

[Tallmo]

@SacredKnowing @Tallmo

I believe you are looking at art from two vastly different angles of pure fine, detailed sensory art and abstract art like writing..

I don’t really believe it’s good to equate art to a certain club, because there are so many forms, it is nuanced. I would overall agree that fine arts is more sensory. This recently, I took an art class and it was literally all physical observation still life, and I absolutely hated it. Not only did I hate the physical details, I just can’t track my physical surroundings well, and that shit was hard. Was too hard to get the still life objects in accurate detail and their form. My natural form is symbolism (didn’t know term until art class), which I drew a few things, but wanted refine my ability and well, I definitely don’t have it in me for that too often.

Even realistic art painting is a very "abstract" process. You can't paint things just how they look. There is always some kind of representation that is very hard to explain. But I don't know enough painters to make too many conclusions about this. However, it has long been pretty clear to me that EIE is one of the most artistic types. They have the ability for expression and Fe gives them a sense of style and an ability to feel them themselves into the object they study, that can be many things depending on the art form.

Something like literature and poetry (my natural artistic form, poetry more) is more overall NF, but the content of the poetry matters, any club can write poetry.

Poetry is very much intuitive, of course any type can in some sense write poetry, but the same can be said about anything.

[Braingel]

Even realistic art painting is a very "abstract" process. You can't paint things just how they look. There is always some kind of representation that is very hard to explain. But I don't know enough painters to make too many conclusions about this. However, it has long been pretty clear to me that EIE is one of the most artistic types. They have the ability for expression and Fe gives them a sense of style and an ability to feel them themselves into the object they study, that can be many things depending on the art form.



Poetry is very much intuitive, of course any type can in some sense write poetry, but the same can be said about anything.

Mm.. There are a plethora of sensory fine artists. I agree that all art can potentially have an abstract form, with configuring composition (colors, style, etc), but I don’t believe it all necessarily goes to intuition. If anything, I’d put Si as a subjective sensory impression that can lend itself into numerous art forms— fine arts, design (comfort and space), culinary arts, fabric arts..

I am a very intuitive/Ni person, and I had a very hard time with the still life where it literally forces you to copy what is observed. I do far better with abstract art, I have always had a symbolism-surrealism type of art, prior to knowing those terms. I just don’t prefer to draw and poetry is my most gifted expression. I never had learn anything about poetry to be gifted in it, and my ideas behind drawing are gifted, putting them into physical detail form is a hardship for myself..

[Braingel]

can they?

Yes, it is more the content of the poetry that matters rather than of the focus to write poetry itself. It would be less likely for a person to make a career out of poetry that isn’t an NF, but you will still have those few sensory artists who write more about their subjective sensations or of physical observations in their poetry (my own poetry has do with visions for the future, my emotions, typing unrelated concepts into one mean, and my own spin and intuition of the afterlife). NT’s write poetry more about their own mental processes and of patterns and themes they notice in life..

[Braingel]

Mm.. There are a plethora of sensory fine artists. I agree that all art can potentially have an abstract form, with configuring composition (colors, style, etc), but I don’t believe it all necessarily goes to intuition. If anything, I’d put Si as a subjective sensory impression that can lend itself into numerous art forms— fine arts, design (comfort and space), culinary arts, fabric arts..

I am a very intuitive/Ni person, and I had a very hard time with the still life where it literally forces you to copy what is observed. I do far better with abstract art, I have always had a symbolism-surrealism type of art, prior to knowing those terms. I just don’t prefer to draw and poetry is my most gifted expression. I never had learn anything about poetry to be gifted in it, and my ideas behind drawing are gifted, putting them into physical detail form is a hardship for myself..

(Abstract in this form having do with something that isn’t tangible in terms of process and something that is directly concrete; it ties in something that is subjective. But why does all abstraction by this definition have be intuition? Intuition, I would define as an ability to focus on big picture dynamics and combining concepts into either an expansion (Ne) or narrowed in theming form (Ni) that is devoid of thing sensory. Si is a very abstract function in the sense of it being subjective. It is abstract through its concrete internalization being something that doesn’t base on external reality, but rather of how one internalizes their own sensory experiences and forms a database of it. It is one of the most purely original functions because of this alone, and arguably the most subjective having do with direct personal experience/how someone has internalized things. This is way Si doms often get something completely off base or something differing, because they try storehouse a stimulus into their already accumulated ones- what reminds and evokes a memory from their psychomotor means, and it doesn’t matter if it’s right or not.

You cannot “touch” someone’s direct internalization and how they somatize stimulus. You can expose them to stimulus, but you definitely can’t touch how they’re going to be reminded or relate it to..

There are varied forms of abstraction, the least abstraction function is probably Se— a concrete function that dwells direct in the perception of external reality. Internal realms are abstract in that you cannot just take out and touch someone’s inner world, and they merge outside concepts with their own inner.

Juan Sandoval, the creator of vultology, is definitely an Si predominant in a cognitive realm, and his system is abstract enough, in that it’s removed from reality and merges its definitions with things that you can’t perceive directly in reality. It’s a literal database of Juan’s own database of how he’s internalized and been reminded of past experiences, yes, sensory concrete data, but still of these things trying tie into his own archive of data and so he makes concepts through a reminding of or trying to merge things into his own.

Concreteness has a do with something that dwells in reality, and an Si user absolutely doesn’t concern reality, they internalize things in reality and merge them into what they’ve already internalized and create from this process, so you get things made by Si doms that have little relation to actually do with reality, which anything that doesn’t connect to reality is abstract.

Si is not traditionally abstract, because it still relies on a concrete, non expansive or theme idea that moves beyond reality past its sensation or concreteness, but often having no basis in direct reality/what goes on/is (Se), it is abstract and removed from reality often.

[Adam Strange]

Like a thirsting man in the middle of a desert, I got a takeout salad from a restaurant and fell in love with the cashier.

I'd say that this indicates that I'm not in a good place, in terms of "present relationship satisfaction".


The plan is to live my best life and see who shows up. I wish my plan would work faster.

[spacious]

Like a thirsting man in the middle of a desert, I got a takeout salad from a restaurant and fell in love with the cashier.

...

The plan is to live my best life and see who shows up. I wish my plan would work faster.

I can relate in terms of proportion between stimulus and response. Sorta.

I'd say that this indicates that I'm not in a good place, in terms of "present relationship satisfaction".

Sx first problems - me, too.

[Echo]

Like a thirsting man in the middle of a desert, I got a takeout salad from a restaurant and fell in love with the cashier.

I'd say that this indicates that I'm not in a good place, in terms of "present relationship satisfaction".


The plan is to live my best life and see who shows up. I wish my plan would work faster.

Ask her out! Whats the worst that can happen? next time you go in, just give her a cash tip with a note folded in it. When I was 23 I did that with a waiter and it worked. he wound up being super boring, but still it worked

[Adam Strange]

Ask her out! Whats the worst that can happen? next time you go in, just give her a cash tip with a note folded in it. When I was 23 I did that with a waiter and it worked. he wound up being super boring, but still it worked

What did the note say? Did you ask him to call you?

I'm more direct than that. My approach would be to return to talk to her once or twice to see if she thinks I'm a Possible, and if so, then I'd ask her if she wants to go for a walk near the canoe livery, to give her an opportunity to either choose a walk around the lake or to rent a canoe, followed by an afternoon meal at the Gandy Dancer restaurant.

However, I'm still waffling on whether I should pursue her. She strongly resembles the ESI-Se artist whom I know, and the Artist chose a life-mate who was an introverted thinker (an LSI, I believe) over a Dual. I think that when an ESI gets a lot of Se, it turns her more towards being an SEE and she then finds introverts to be more compatible than LIE Duals.

Anyway, I'm still considering this. There's quite an age difference, too, but when I spoke to her, we had an easy, compatible interaction, and I think that most women are attracted to comfortable kindness, intelligence, and good providers. Not necessarily in that order.

[Tallmo]

What did the note say? Did you ask him to call you?

I'm more direct than that. My approach would be to return to talk to her once or twice to see if she thinks I'm a Possible, and if so, then I'd ask her if she wants to go for a walk near the canoe livery, to give her an opportunity to either choose a walk around the lake or to rent a canoe, followed by an afternoon meal at the Gandy Dancer restaurant.

However, I'm still waffling on whether I should pursue her. She strongly resembles the ESI-Se artist whom I know, and the Artist chose a life-mate who was an introverted thinker (an LSI, I believe) over a Dual. I think that when an ESI gets a lot of Se, it turns her more towards being an SEE and she then finds introverts to be more compatible than LIE Duals.

Anyway, I'm still considering this. There's quite an age difference, too, but when I spoke to her, we had an easy, compatible interaction, and I think that most women are attracted to comfortable kindness, intelligence, and good providers. Not necessarily in that order.

Please do it and remember to report back to this thread. And if she slaps you it will be a great story and maybe an indication of her Se.