you kinda gave the same answer as Tallmo years ago who said that sensing type art is more rawOriginally Posted by Braingel
you kinda gave the same answer as Tallmo years ago who said that sensing type art is more raw
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
Don’t know if raw would be the exact word.. You probably mean it in a “simple” yet rich of natural details out in reality. I can see rawness applying to more than one context. Emotional rawness, for instance..
What I would call sensory art is tangible, concrete.. Tactile, is the best word, probably.
Raw as in natural in a touchable sense, yeah, it works; I just dislike the word for the context, because something needs not be in a “raw” sensory detail form to have a rawness to it. For the art form specifically, the subject, what I came up with for adjective is better… Raw is just an adjective quality that can use for art, without saying something that pertains strictly to the category of art itself which is the impression I got in your wording.
I am in my head; not society.
Yes, that is who I am, hence the bold am. Also, a brain angel. (+ my own incarnation of a Zelda concept).
My thoughts align w action to succeed what needs (at least in my dreamed ideal, they do)…
Dragons:
Babies, click them to make them grow up into Kara’s Dragon Museum
My favorite adult Museum Exhibits
I just wrote “call me” with a little heart and my number. And he did! It was simple but it worked, and there’s no embarrassing downside if it doesn’t except maybe avoiding that restaurant in the future.
Age difference only matters if you make it matter. if she’s into it and you’re respectful of the difference in life experience, that should be fine. You definitely don’t seem like one of those guys who only dates young women because they're easy to control. your plan sounds good. Only note I would add would be maybe not going for a walk by the lake and keeping it to a very public place for first date. Most guys don’t need to think about that sort of thing, but it can make women nervous to go somewhere secluded with a man they don’t know very well. Better to save the lake for date 2.
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Last edited by MarshalBell; 08-13-2024 at 02:53 PM.
Fuck off
Once, when I was in a bar, a woman had a friend of hers hand me just such a note. I called her the next day and got a recording. I left a message, but she never responded.
Sobering up can be a shocking experience.
I have found, time and time again, that the age of a person (past about 24) doesn't affect the way that I interact with them. ITRs are really age-independent. Age differences seem to matter in only two ways.
One, there is a difference in social landmarks. For example, every person has favorite songs and movies and television shows, and which ones they are depend on when you were born. This matters if you live your life around social media, which I do not.
Two, there is the unfavorable reaction from strangers (and some friends) that you get when you are "with" someone where there is obviously an age difference. This matters if you give a shit about what other people think, which I do not.
I was kind of shocked to read that some guys date younger women "because they are easier to control". I'm not looking to control a woman. Rather, I need her advice, and I need a friend who has my back. The stronger and wiser she is, the better.
That makes sense. I thought of that, briefly, but most women seem to be able to size me up immediately and conclude that I'm not an axe-murderer. Nevertheless, I'll save the walk around the lake for the second date.
Well, the guy I thought might be my dual turned out to be another SEE. I've gotten pretty good at spotting activators, but I can never get a relationship off the ground with them. I think our goals are too different. I've met one guy I'm pretty sure is a dual but unfortunately I'm not physically attracted to him. Does anyone know how to spot an ESE man?
@Echo, check this thread for some material that may be useful: How to Catch an Alpha NT or Alpha SF (the16types.info). If i remember/come across other ones, I'll share. (I've been here longer than you have) :3
@Echo, I know two males whom I identify as ESEs. They both look like maritime sea captains; kind of square, solid, like they would be standing, braced against a gale, and they want to be in charge of their ship. Both are generally, decently nice to be around, although my ESI buddy would disagree with that statement.
One used to be a radical union organizer in the print shops in town, until no one would hire him and he had to start his own printing business. He's kind of gruff and seems to be always low-level outraged at people who care about money (me). He's very conscious of social graces. His wife, I think, is an Alpha SF.
The second used to remodel upscale houses in California, but then injured himself on the job, moved to Ann Arbor, worked in a bespoke pottery store for a while, and then got another job remodeling houses. Both guys know very little about engineering, but both have a fantastic appreciation for surface-level aesthetics. The color, the weight, the form, the history, the story behind objects are what they focus on. (Si, of course.)
The second guy has a girlfriend who doesn't live with him. I've seen her once or twice but have never been introduced. She seems quiet as a mouse, although she's physically big.
Strangely enough, I also know a few female ESEs, and one runs Three Chairs in Ann Arbor, which is an upscale furnishings supplier, and the other owns an upscale print shop called Kolossos. A third works in one of the Kinkos print centers.
So, ESEs seem to be into interior decoration and printing. I imagine that the printers are there for the calligraphic aspects of printing. They are all about surface impressions and how your environment makes you feel.
My ESI-Fi buddy has been divorced for a long enough time to want to start dating again.
He should be looking for this woman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peNNgRFA-FI,
because his stated ideal is this woman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qLWZ3As0q0,
But female LIEs are extremely rare and he doesn't know how to find them or what to look for, so he has to fall back on getting connected through friends or acquaintances from past jobs. And since my friend has friends of all types, an ILE named Mark, whom he knew from a past job, connected him with a woman whom Mark recommended highly. Her name is Sue.
My ESI buddy has been seeing Sue for half a year or so, and he likes her, but he said that there is something missing. He doesn't know exactly what, and he described her as an entirely nice person, and he doesn't want to criticize or seem ungrateful for her attention, but she just doesn't have some undefinable spark that he needs.
His ILE friend, Mark, and his wife, came over with Sue to have dinner at my ESI buddy's house, and the ESI cooked dinner, after which they all went out on the veranda and talked about religion and baptism and how if a child isn't baptized, they can't get into Heaven.
"They don't sound very smart to me", I said.
"Hah!. Adam, I didn't want to say anything, but I'm an atheist, and I think Mark is Catholic, and so is Sue, and Mark's wife is Protestant, so I just let them talk. But I was basically out of that discussion."
He said that he feels that his relationship with Sue, while cordial, isn't all that he wants, and since he's not getting any younger, why waste time with a person who isn't fulfilling?
I sense an impending doom. Lol.
My ESI buddy said that he wants a woman who is "feisty, edgy, with a dark sense of humor". Lol. Who could that be? And, more interesting, why, when he knows nothing of Socionics, does he feel an attraction to what is pretty clearly a female LIE?
He sent me a picture of Sue, and I'd guess, from VI, that she is SEI.
From https://www.meetch.app/en/calculator/
ESI-SEI Relationship Calculator:
Quasi-identity
Low compatibility
Coexisting with a complete misunderstanding of each other. The relationship is rather peaceful. Partners neither criticise each others’ weaknesses, nor compete with each other. However the equality is missing. The partner seems to be less capable, but still achieve more in areas where you fail to do so. Moreover, partners formulate the same idea in different ways. Interpreting their partners information in their own way which is different to how it was meant. Unproductive disputes often happen between them because they cannot grasp each other's thought process. In the absence of common interests or projects the communication gradually ceases to exist.
You know, if he'd just have sent me a picture of her at the beginning of their relationship, or taken a Socionics test (It's Just for fun!) with her, he could have used those six wasted months more profitably. As in, talking to the female LIE manager at my bank.
The LIE bank manager is married, but
1. My ESI friend could use the experience of simply being exposed to female LIEs, and
2. She might be married to a dipshit and she might be interested in an upgrade. After all, half of all marriages fail. People make all kinds of mistakes when they start out dating.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 08-12-2024 at 04:37 PM.
Yes, quasi-identity is really bad, and imo confusing. I've been with two ESI, both before I found Socionics. One reason I got into it could be that my mother and my aunt are ESI, so I've grown up with ESIs around. It's one of those ITR that worked as a reference point for me when typing myself and trying to make sense of it all, because I could easily see that I had experienced it and I felt the descriptions were very relateable.
Stay away from quasi!
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
I saw Tallmo's post about checking back in two weeks to see where people are before setting the next book club date. Obviously it's totally fine and I'm only an outside observer--from a socionics perspective I was like omg, this would stress me out from someone, because it's like what ILIs do in my experience with not setting final dates yet. AH (to be clear, I struggle in leading up to deadlines, in some sense I live and die by them.)
If he'd_________________ at the beginning of ___________, or [alternative option]. he could have used [long time period] more profitably. As in, [direct action to get closer to the goal that the dual can see].
Classic constructive critique of a dual. I feel a little sensitive to it because I can imagine it applied to me. It's vexing how people can be really stubborn and have to do things 'their way'. I don't know. I think I'm very open to feedback, my ILI friend said maybe even too much so. But as someone on the forum said, finding the right kind of feedback can be extremely difficult and utterly crucial for an Fi lead's success, imo and ime.
yes, I'm currently playing the long game.
Actually, I wrote the above to emphasize the idea that knowing a person's Sociotype can help them to avoid a lot of wasted or misdirected effort, and my statement was addressed to the readers of this forum.
In reality, I would never give my friend advice on whom to date or not date. That's up to him, not me. However, after he has decided on a course of action, I can step in and do a quick debrief. ("That lack of excitement that you felt with her wasn't going to change, and the same thing would happen with almost any person who has a similar personality.")
Well, I might point out a female LIE to him if I see one, but he has already said that Kate Beckinsale's Selena is his Ideal, so I wouldn't exactly be influencing him to go in a direction that he didn't already want to go in.
Thanks for elaborating. I was being sensitive and projecting because I recently received feedback that followed a similar structure ('If you had done X, you could've saved yourself time') from the LIE's Superego, an ESE, who shares the same cognitive thinking style. I agree that an LIE would not try to overstep what an ESI is aiming for in an Fi sense, at least I would presume not. "That's up to him, not me." Love it! That's very respectful and not paternalistic. (My parents are LIE and ESE, so some of my experiences with the types are infused with parental energies or lack thereof.)
Yes, I know that ESIs sometimes want very clear directions. The way I see it you can simply set your own deadline. If I give you 2 weeks and then I'll check back, you can just make it your deadline and take responsibility for moving things forward.
But the bottom line is that we all struggle with this in our inferior function. We have to understand that THE PROBLEM IS IN MYSELF.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Update:
Yes, it's a bit hard to figure out these Se polr types. But I've been with EII before and they were open for sex pretty soon. With miss LII whom I'm dating now I was maybe going even slower than she wanted because she seemed so physically passive. (And I needed time myself to feel confident with her) But then suddenly she was open for intimacy. But also the the low Fe surprises me, because I can't always tell what she wants. That's maybe even more important. Anyway, this is all a great adventure and things are going pretty well for us now considering the challenges. We are learning as we go along.
My main "scientific" observation is that the low Se really is a challenge for both of us. If you want things to happen you need Se. Another challenge is Fe, because my Fe is not strong enough to match her inferior Fe, obviously, and I can feel it. But I see it as an opportunity for me to develop my creative Fe, and who doesn't want to develop his creative function?
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Now actually thinking of trying a community meetup (despite it being against every one of my LII instincts to venture into the real world to meet other humans). Anyone have any ideas what kind of event an ESE male or ILE female (my friends still looking too) would go to?
ESE, cooking definitely.
Cross-posting for posterity.
I tend to live a fairly structured life, insofar as I can, while keeping as busy as I can. I'm also wary of overthinking things, because my intuition has no end and it can prevent me from actually doing things.
I did a lot of "dating" until I was 30, when I finally met a woman to whom I decided I could be married. She had 4D Si and was attractive, smart, and kind, but she was SLI, not ESI. Close, but not on target. Mainly, she had 4D Si and we got along and I knew she would be a good mother to our children. That was my primary criterion for marriage.
The first GF I had after my divorce told me that I had a hard time saying "I love you", but she understood that I did love her. (An LSI is dimensionally half an ESI and has Role Fi. Again, close but not on target.) She was less sure that I liked her, but Mirage has its problems and I did both love her and (mostly) like her.
And, of course, my last girlfriend, who was an ESI, was Dismissive-Avoidant and after three years of my trying and failing to connect, when she didn't prioritize our relationship, I quit and moved on.
So, it is possible to find an otherwise perfect Dual and still leave them, if they don't make the relationship a priority.
I'll tell you the truth: I'm lonely and I miss her, but not enough to go back to her and exist in a relationship where she isn't a full partner in making it work.
I know a male LII programmer who is long-married to a woman who works in medical research and who might be another LII (I really can't tell her type, other than they get along great together while seeming to me to be distant and cold), and they live in a designer home and don't have children and both belong to the local Astronomy club, and they host a meeting of the club every once in a while at their home.
It's "bring a dish to pass" and "bring your telescope". So, food and beautiful toys are interesting to LIIs, because they are also interesting to ESEs.
Makerspace events for the ILEs. Adam has explained what they are on here before. I know theyre against every one of my ESI instincts, lol, but that's not the point here (i see it at the local library and I feel almost threatenedand look away). Here are some buzzwords used for the ones near me to give you a sense: create, discover, embrace, new, tools, art
maybe also at dining/drinking venues catching up with their friends? male ESEs could be into sports and team fandom, i think?
i also know of a female ILE and a male ESE who have their own podcasts. (the ESE was more consistent; the ILE's content was more groundbreaking.)
i also think that these types can enjoy long drives or long train rides -- none of these are community events per se, I know. I'm brainstorming O_O
We wound up settling on a pub quiz night to test the waters. We’ll see how it goes!
Because I'm not in a relationship right now, I've been thinking a lot about relationships and why they go wrong or right.
In my case, the outcome seems to be determined by whether or not the participants in the relationship can effectively make the other person their priority or not.
In the case of my ex-wife, I definitely made her my priority, but I wasn't very effective at giving her (my supervisor) what she wanted, so she eventually left and I divorced her.
In the case of the LSIs I've dated, the sex (Ni/Se-Se/Ni) was great, but I didn't see a path forward, long term, in our public social interactions (Te/Fi - Ti/Fe). They were great today, but not in the running as permanent partners. I'd say that made both partners see the other as not their number-one priority.
In the case of the ESIs I've dated, the sex was again great, but they either lived too far away, or they were Dismissive-Avoidant and weren't there for me. Their Dismissive-Avoidance meant that I was actually the opposite of a priority, in the sense that, the more they liked me, the more vulnerable they felt to eventually being let down (this was exactly what their caregivers did, and is therefore the way they think that the world works), and so they distanced themselves in the relationship to the point where I quit trying, thereby validating their self-fulfilling fears.
Dismissive-Avoidance is a shit thing to get from your inconstant caregivers, and it basically makes a person be unsupportive to their partners. Everyone needs love, but they don't need to be vulnerable to someone who doesn't love them, and when you go too far down that path of unloving caregivers, it is really hard to believe that someone COULD love you, and then change your expectations to a new reality.
I ain't asking for much. I just want a Dual (who is capable of effectively making me their priority, because I'd make them mine) who is healthy (and wants to make me a priority, because I want to make them mine.)
In the words of my ESI buddy, "Dating is hard. It's really hard."
.
Last edited by Simple; 09-16-2024 at 04:15 PM.
I know some identicals and I have dated identicals a long time ago. I think the basic rule is that we connect through the conscious (ego) functions. That's were we have a true connection. Duality is not a true connection, it is chemistry because of the unconscious impact.
It's true that identical can maybe have a lack of chemistry but I see it as a mature relationship. Of course there will be problems because partners have the same weaknesses, but they can grow together. They have to grow together.
Then there are subtypes, and identical type will feel a lot different depending on subtype. With good subtype combination identical can work.
Anyway, I wish I had more identical friends. I have one right now, but she is a woman and she is in a relationship so we don't keep in touch very often. We have had a lot of fun in the past, though.
However, as we develop (weaker functions) it gets easier to connect to other types also.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
.
Last edited by Simple; 09-16-2024 at 04:13 PM.
In my dating profile on Match.com, one of the things I say about myself is that "I test as being very masculine, but that doesn't sound too good to me." I actually took that test here, on this forum.
I recently got a message from a woman who might either be an SLI or an SEE, but I'm leaning SLI. She wrote:
"You don’t sound very masculine - at all! You sound very whiny. I have to tell you this: it isn’t about you or what you want – if you want to be happy with a woman, then it has to be all about her. I’m not saying that you’re not as smart as you think you are: I am declaring it! Lol. Get a clue."
I think that is called "negging", as in "negating someone's value in order to artificially raise your own", and I stopped doing that in eighth grade because it offended Elaine S, my partner in Art class, and made me ashamed of myself when she pointed it out, and I swore that I'd never do that to anyone, ever again.
I especially like the part where the Match lady says that, in order to get along with a woman, it has to be "all about her". Lol. Wouldn't that be nice? It sounds pretty narcissistic, which is why I think she might be SEE, like Trump. But she could be SLI, like my Supervisor. Supervisors can be good at fucking up your life.
You meet a lot of incompatible people on dating sites.
I don't think that she and I would get along. Lol.
In the words of my ESI buddy, "Dating is hard. It's really hard." It's not for the timid, that's for sure.
yes, not a constructive message. On the other hand, it's a spontaneous woman's perspective so I think it's worth something. If she thinks you sound whiny, she can't be entirely wrong because she experienced it. It's possible that she could feel your inferior Fi.
Yes, I agree. It creates a whole bunch of new problems that one didn't have before when alone. I might write something about it later.In the words of my ESI buddy, "Dating is hard. It's really hard." It's not for the timid, that's for sure.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Adam did we link up elsewhere or was that aestrevix?
I randomly ran into someone from the socionics on discord and now I'm trying to remember who that was lmao, but whoever it was also went through a divorce and has been dating. We (the person I was talking to that I cannot remember) were discussing this 6mos - 1 year ago.
Last edited by Birdie; 08-22-2024 at 08:50 PM.
Everything interests me but nothing holds me.
I do not think that woman was necessarily trying to neg you on. I believe she was just sharing her opinion on how you came across. It sounds like she was trying to be direct with you.
I do think some of her ideas are very questionable, but she was just sharing those ideas. It wasn't an attack on you though I can understand how it might feel that way when being called whiny. It's also worth noting that being whiny and masculine are not diametrically opposed in my opinion. I believe that someone can be both whiny and masculine. In fact, some of the most masculine men I know can be incredibly whiny. Throw lil trantrums at times when they don't get their way lmao. I am not the one having the convo with this woman, but it sounds like she feels differently than me. I wonder why that is. Why she has the belief that one cannot be masculine & whiny.
I also do not believe that in order for you to be happy with a woman, then it has to be all about the woman. You talked about attachment styles, well this woman sounds as though she might have an anxious attachment style. I am really reading into things (literally and figuratively) but the idea that everything needs to be about the woman (aka her) is a major, major cause for concern. I also wonder what her thoughts on are lesbian relationships and how that works. Does the more masc person just have to always submit to the wants of the more femme?
Please do not message her and ask her these questions. Avoid this woman at all costs, mate. Unless you just want to chatter, but please do not date her. She won't respect any boundaries you put up, I can already tell.
Everything interests me but nothing holds me.
Hi, @Birdie. Nice to see you again.
Your memory must have been of someone else. I've never been on Discord.
Thanks, Adam!
Nice to see y'all again as well.
Everything interests me but nothing holds me.
That's an interesting perspective, but I have to say that me and my girl are on opposites ends of the Ne-Si spectrum, and even though the impact in the subconscious was there since day one, it took us 5 months or more to connect, and when that happened, it was deep.. to the point that we're getting to 1 year after the click happened, and we haven't not talked for a single day since then.
Saying duality is not a true connection doesn't sound fair to me.. I've had duals in the past that took me years to connect with, and maybe I can meet someone with whom I might click instantly..
The thing is.. connection can come in many varied and multifaceted forms and due to many factors, and I guarantee mine is genuine also, otherwise we wouldn't have endured time.
We have occasional clashes due to opposing natures of the functions but we never really argue or get hurt, and the exchange of information is also very constructive
On the other hand, with identicals there's this whole comparison and sense of competition, even though the exchange of information happens more rapidly
Last edited by BrainlessSquid; 08-23-2024 at 11:41 PM.
Flirt with ideas
Date opportunities
Marry problem-solving
Hi Adam- have you tried sticking it out with the dismissive avoidant ESIs? Could they be testing you? i’ve noticed that when outside things send my mother into a spiral she likes to test my father emotionally. She gets cold and withdraws (she did that after her mother died), but he just doubles down and sticks it out. I think she needs constant reassurance that she’s his priority because subconsciously she's always waiting to be hurt/failed by other people. Maybe it goes back to that whole victim/aggressor thing.
After my divorce, I dated a number of women. An ILI whom I dated just got back in touch with me to get some professional information for a paper she’s writing, which I didn’t expect. I thought she might hate me because of the way our relationship ended, but apparently, we forget the bad and only remember the good.
This caused me to look up on line some of the other women whom I dated from that time, to see how they are doing now.
IEI, and IEI; dodged a bullet.
ESI-Se; has not aged well.
ESI-Fi, looks better now than when we were seeing each other. I have always had some regrets about not getting closer to her.
If I only knew then what I know now.
Prediction is hard; especially about the future.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 08-24-2024 at 02:26 PM.
Echo, asking someone if they are there for you is the basic interaction in all relationships. It's not a Victim/Aggressor thing. It is a normal for everyone to do this when in a relationship. Because, if they aren't there for you, why are you in this relationship?
It is only when support is unbalanced and only goes one way that the relationship becomes unhealthy.
Ideally, you will have your partner's back when they are feeling unsure of things. That's a given. But when one person is constantly pulling away and is never going towards you, then that is not an equal partnership.
A lot of relationships operate like this. They often involve Dismissive-Avoidant and Anxious partners, but there could be other reasons for the imbalance. In any case, just because you have two unhealthy people whose particular flaws match and enable each to get validation for their unhealthiness, does not mean that this is a good relationship.
My ex-wife was a Dismissive-Avoidant. When I married her, I was willing to stick with her for the rest of my life, but the more a Dismissive-Avoidant likes you, the more they will pull away. They still like and need you, but they aren't there for you.
I could say a lot more about this, but thinking about the years that I wasted in that relationship makes me insanely angry, so instead, let me leave you with this simple thought: I need someone who is able and willing to reciprocate both my feelings and my actions.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/PxHTGD7o4cU
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0oChkdXv0QA
I suppressed my needs for many years, just like my father did in his marriage, but I'm not going to do that again.
And let me give you a weather forecast. A guy will put up with a lot from his wife, especially if they have been married for many years, but if there ever comes a break and the guy has a chance to stop, look around, see where he's been and what his future looks like, he can and very likely will leave a relationship where he is not appreciated.
I did, and it was one of the best things I ever did for myself.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 08-24-2024 at 06:23 PM.
Got a psychologist in Day Center. Not gonna lie, she's kinda cute
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