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Thread: Adventures in Dating

  1. #561
    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The EII thought about that for a second and said, “Everyone wants to feel that they are Number One, and when they don’t get that, it kind of poisons the relationship.”
    I believe this is the EII hinting that she would have liked being your number one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I said, “Well, you’re my Number One secretary.
    This is probably the coldest way of telling someone that you're not interested into her, it's even worse than: "I don't see you as a lover, because you're a sister to me." It would be approriate for you to change your profile name from Adam Strange into Adam Savage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    She laughed at that
    She laughed a sad laugh in which she accepted her defeat to never being able to date you.

    Seriously Adam, ask your ESI-Se decorator what she thinks of your EII secretary, because I'm very interested to hear her thoughts.


    Quote Originally Posted by ArceusPrime View Post
    Searching the whole wide world for your perfect fit sounds like a big game of whack a mole at Chuckecheeses, getting on a big chase for everything that seems like a golden opportunity, but really just turned out to be an illusory and fleeting hope of the crown on top to make the 2 of you king and queen together forever.
    I actually agree with Bunny here, because your fixation on finding the perfect partner does not take into consideration that we are all flawed people. As Carl von Clausewitz famously said: "The enemy of the good is the dream of perfection." Perfection doesn't exist, duals will also have arguments. I know that you know this, but you don't seem willing to admit this emotionally to yourself, even though your fixation on duality is the cause of your loneliness. I get the impression that you have been focusing on Socionics for so long that you no longer see the people behind the sociotypes. Socionics is meant to help you understand and work on your relations, not to follow as an instruction manual for which people you want to associate with. Adam, you really have to work on your Fi with some insightful help from others, because you cannot substitute your very own feelings and principles with psychological theories. I know, because I studied psychology for that very reason and had to go through quite some experiences to realize that that is not how life works. From there I started working on myself, and although I'm a flawed person too and still have to work on my Se, I have come a long way with my Fi.

    @Lady Leviathan, could you tell Adam, please, because perhaps you may get through to him? I see him digging his own grave with the way he approaches life for the last half a decade and it worries me, but I see that he has invested too much into it to be willing to give up that easily. He's entrapped in the sunk cost fallacy. Honestly, I don't know what I should do to shake you out of it and to finally begin living life again, Adam.



    Quote Originally Posted by cyberpunk View Post
    I abhor his politics, but I love the memes! The guy's so ridiculously hilarious, there's just no way not to laugh!

    Last edited by Armitage; 05-13-2022 at 10:39 AM.

  2. #562
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    I went dancing on Friday. A band was playing in a pub. They play Finnish tangos and traditional dance music. The lead singer is Dutch who sings in Finnish, this makes the band almost like a joke. They are not great but they can play. It's like a small orchestra with bass, violin, brass, guitar and singer.

    I entered the pub. That's always exciting, and even a little frightening. There were some familiar faces, the same people go to these social dance events. I bought a beer and stood by the bar looking around. An older woman came and asked me to dance. We danced and I noticed that she was very drunk. I did my best anyway out of politeness. She said that she had been here for 30 years.

    I spotted a familiar face and asked her to dance. She is good, we have danced before. While we were dancing I spotted a younger attractive woman outside the dance floor enthusiastically moving her body and looking at the band. Nobody had asked her to dance. I thought, maybe I should ask her.

    Then the same old drunk woman came and asked for another dance. I wasn't happy about it, but I agreed. This time she was trying to concentrate despite being drunk. After the normal two dances she looked so happy and asked if we should continue dancing. I declined, saying that I need to dance with other women also. (I think that was an honest way to put it). I don't really mind cougars, they can be really nice and attractive, but she was too drunk and not attractive.

    I approached the attractive girl I had spotted before and asked her to dance. She was a little surprised and gave the normal "instinctual" excuse, "I can't dance". But then her friend was just "I'll hold your beer, now go!". So we danced and she was also drunk, but very energetic. She was so energetic that I told her that she can lead if she wants to. I think it's a way for me to flirt sometimes, telling a girl that she can lead if she wants to. Switching roles can be exciting. She stared at me dramatically all the time, but I couldn't look her in the eyes, I had to pay attention to the dancing. After the dance she said she had enjoyed it and me being so determined or something. I was just leading the normal way, but sometimes this makes an impression on girls. She seemed Se, a drunk Se, but I can't tell the type. Could be Se base, or ESE or something else.

    Nothing happened that evening, but it's exciting how easy it can be to make contact at these events. Sometimes adventure happens, sometimes not.

    Are Finnish men generally conservative? (probably) Why aren't they dancing with the attractive unknown women standing some distance from the dance floor. I had no competition from other men. These girls can't really dance, they just happen to be there. But that's even better. This is a great opportunity.

    New events coming up. I might return to this thread again.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 05-15-2022 at 05:56 PM.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  3. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I said, “Well, you’re my Number One secretary. Never leave me, because I can’t replace you.”

    She laughed at that, but it’s true.
    Adorable. Lol

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    Went to the club for the first time in a while (I figured it would be good to dance and sweat a bit to help me lose some belly fat) and got chatted up by a dual. Run of the mill experience, as usual said dual asked me to be her fiancé and get married and live with her, yadda yadda, while claiming she can’t have a steady partner because she likes to “live at her own pace” (okay? As in getting smashed 24/7 past age 30?)

    What’s with all these psycho duals I keep on meeting? Are there no remotely normal people outside anymore? I thought I was losing it living in my stuffy mom’s basement, but geez.
    how to enlarge your dragon, click here

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    get ready to get cucked
    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    got this Socionics stuff caught by the balls

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    Quote Originally Posted by mysteryofdungeon View Post
    Went to the club for the first time in a while (I figured it would be good to dance and sweat a bit to help me lose some belly fat) and got chatted up by a dual. Run of the mill experience, as usual said dual asked me to be her fiancé and get married and live with her, yadda yadda, while claiming she can’t have a steady partner because she likes to “live at her own pace” (okay? As in getting smashed 24/7 past age 30?)

    What’s with all these psycho duals I keep on meeting? Are there no remotely normal people outside anymore? I thought I was losing it living in my stuffy mom’s basement, but geez.

    It’s a sad cliché but true, that all the good ones are taken by the time you reach age 30.

    I’m envious of the people who match up early and stay together. I envy their normality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It’s a sad cliché but true, that all the good ones are taken by the time you reach age 30.

    I’m envious of the people who match up early and stay together. I envy their normality.
    Hahaha, I’m starting to see it this way as well. According to one of my friends, if he’s past 30 and not a dad, that’s already your first red flag. Jokes, of course.

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    Yeah I don’t fancy anyone on dating apps (I’m in my thirties). I thought there might be some single SEEs at least but don’t seem to find many. They might prefer meeting people out n about..atm I’m talking to an ILE and SEI..maybe these types just stand out more for me. The SEI just looks like someone I’d want to get to know and the ILE is fit and likes the same music as me. I’ve been thinking about how much you can tell about a person from appearance alone- like sometimes I can talk to a cute SLE but I can tell there’s something not right about them..often in the eyes-they look a bit mean or something. There are probably some I completely miss as well because sometimes people don’t look good in photos..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It’s a sad cliché but true, that all the good ones are taken by the time you reach age 30.

    I’m envious of the people who match up early and stay together. I envy their normality.
    I did my best to avoid meeting people in my twenties..but I did still meet a number of people who I think were good long term dating/marriage material. A few duals, a couple semi-duals, a few ILEs, one SEI, one SLI. To be fair I think all of them had their faults..I think they just seemed cool coz I liked them

    Even as a young person, I think the chances of meeting the one or ‘one of the ones’ are quite low- I think maybe it’s normal to meet two people per year on average? I can’t remember how I came up with that figure lol but that’s if you include other types that aren’t duals :/

    I wish the whole world knew about duals so it was normalised and didn’t seem like such a big deal haha. It’s the secrecy that makes it stressful lol
    Last edited by Bethany; 05-16-2022 at 04:24 PM.

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    ☽ the cutest type ☾ Aquamarine's Avatar
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    Dating seems like too much work. I'm not even in mid twenties yet and I'm tired just from hearing people talk about it. It just seems like meeting a bunch of random people that I don't care about and pushing myself to care about getting to know them. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. Maybe the solution is to just date people you already know. How do you guys keep doing it? lol
    Chronic "grass is always greener" syndrome




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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamarine View Post
    Dating seems like too much work. I'm not even in mid twenties yet and I'm tired just from hearing people talk about it. It just seems like meeting a bunch of random people that I don't care about and pushing myself to care about getting to know them. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. Maybe the solution is to just date people you already know. How do you guys keep doing it? lol
    when it comes to dating apps..less is more. Don’t bother too much with them if you’re young. I think music venues are the best place to meet people. My best advice which might not be applicable to everyone..the ones you fall for the hardest probably aren’t the right one for you. But fun to fancy/maybe date for a bit……yeah it’s good if you already know them- if you think they have something cute about them too

    edit: oh maybe they are a bit better when you’re young though- I was always too shy to
    use them..there might be better people but I still think the whole process of using them is stressful so best not to over-use them
    Last edited by Bethany; 05-16-2022 at 04:20 PM.

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    I always search in the most fringe dating apps and seem to find one person after months of neglecting and occasionally returning to it. I've only found one person that way, and we were together for 8 months.

    I'm back to waiting again. But I'll probably wait longer this time, I'm not sure I can handle another person for awhile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamarine View Post
    Dating seems like too much work. I'm not even in mid twenties yet and I'm tired just from hearing people talk about it. It just seems like meeting a bunch of random people that I don't care about and pushing myself to care about getting to know them. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. Maybe the solution is to just date people you already know. How do you guys keep doing it? lol
    Think of it like pizza delivery from a different place each time. You might not get the best pizza in the world from this next place, but you will get a pizza.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 05-16-2022 at 04:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It’s a sad cliché but true, that all the good ones are taken by the time you reach age 30.

    I’m envious of the people who match up early and stay together. I envy their normality.
    I mean, I’m a fat basement-dweller, I get it. I understand you’re an older man too. I am not expecting “normal and super hot”, just “not psycho”.

    Quote Originally Posted by ariesangel View Post
    Hahaha, I’m starting to see it this way as well. According to one of my friends, if he’s past 30 and not a dad, that’s already your first red flag. Jokes, of course.
    I am certain that my quality would not improve if I were a dad, as much as I’d like to be your daddy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    get ready to get cucked
    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    got this Socionics stuff caught by the balls

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    Quote Originally Posted by mysteryofdungeon View Post
    I am certain that my quality would not improve if I were a dad, as much as I’d like to be your daddy.
    Mon dieu!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    My best advice which might not be applicable to everyone..the ones you fall for the hardest probably aren’t the right one for you.
    and you will be all like why didn’t they like me as much, why am I so weird that I liked someone who was too good for meee. And then you realise they’re not, or even if they are it’s not like you are unequal in a bad way. It’s more like really good supervision/benefit…and it can’t last..! At least I hope that’s the truth
    Last edited by Bethany; 05-16-2022 at 06:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    and you will be all like why didn’t they like me as much, why am I so weird that I liked someone who was too good for meee. And then you realise they’re not, or even if they are it’s not like you are unequal in a bad way. It’s more like really good supervision/benefit…and it can’t last..!

    @Bethany, who we look for and who we should be looking for seem to be different.

    https://www.wired.com/story/data-mar...=pocket-newtab

    For the record, I've dated a few IEIs and I really like and admire them (because they are terrific people), but because I, myself, was in a Supervision relationship in my marriage, I'm resolute in not inflicting myself onto these women. Instead, I point them towards SLEs and hope for the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Bethany, who we look for and who we should be looking for seem to be different.

    https://www.wired.com/story/data-mar...=pocket-newtab

    For the record, I've dated a few IEIs and I really like and admire them (because they are terrific people), but because I, myself, was in a Supervision relationship in my marriage, I'm resolute in not inflicting myself onto these women. Instead, I point them towards SLEs and hope for the best.
    oh great article..yep I know what you mean about supervision. I don't mean this in a bad way but LIE is the only type I can't picture myself dating (although I did fancy an LIE guy at uni). I don't tend to meet or fancy ESEs either but in my head I don't see IEI supervision over ESE as bad as the LIE/IEI dynamic. I'm probably completley wrong about that haha. I really don't like the idea of being someone's supervisor either..I guess coz being around your supervisor (for too long) does feel pretty stressful. What I was trying to say in my earlier post was that addictive relationships of any ITR might resemble supervision relationships...lots of fascination with each other but ultimately you end up making each other mad. I still would be intrigued to meet an LIE that doesn't feel like a typical supervisor...just to see how it feels But only out of curiosity...not to date them. So yeah I think addictive relationships would resemble a deceptively good seeming supervision relationship. Typically I don't find the average LIE fascinating but there have been a couple...I'm quite intrigued what makes these relationships work in the first place. I have had a few close ESE buddies and I was very fond of them. So I imagine it's something like that..very deceptively good-seeming indeed!

    With LIE/IEI I think it takes a bit of time to break the ice

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Bethany, who we look for and who we should be looking for seem to be different.

    https://www.wired.com/story/data-mar...=pocket-newtab
    It's warmth, senstivity, loyalty, and reliability that do predict relationship stability, as does attachment, because it's a catch-all construct for these previous relationship prerequisites:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    I’ve been thinking about how much you can tell about a person from appearance alone-
    ok some more observations about this..when it comes to using dating apps I’ve decided that it’s important to find the person’s face immediately attractive as well as thinking they look like a nice person. They might not be the hottest but you just know you’d fancy them. These people are the ones who seem interested in me (it’s a two way thing) and it feels like there is potential for you to like each other/ go on some dates. I’m sure I’ve got it wrong sometimes and thought people seemed good for me based on looks alone who turned out not to be..but I am def starting to notice a pattern.

    I’ll see if I can elaborate later but essentially there have been a few who seemed attractive and trustworthy/interested from the start. E.g I’ve been talking to an SEI and I paused in the chat because I was talking to someone else. A couple days later he messaged saying he thinks we’d get on really well. I kinda believe him. But I’m talking to a nice seeming ILE as well as..SLE. The SLE, well he seems cool but we haven’t messaged that much yet. The ILE and the SLE are on the same app so kinda wondering if some algorithm actually worked and made me match with the cute and kind looking SLE after talking to the ILE. But yeah more later.

    I imagine there are some people who are types to grow on you after a few dates (who you don’t find immediately hot/nice), but when you’re tired of using apps..it’s nice to feel that immediate connection I suppose.
    Last edited by Bethany; 05-19-2022 at 11:17 AM.

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    I was having lunch with an ESI buddy of mine and we were swapping stories about old girlfriends. We’re both unexpectedly divorced.

    He said that dating was incredibly hard for him. He’s introverted and was married to one woman for many years before she accused him of cheating (ridiculous) and left him. He said that he now finds himself doing the exact same things on a date that he did when he was 18, before he met his wife.

    ”That’s when we stopped learning”, I said.

    ”I keep trying to recapture that feeling”, he continued. “Like she’s the One, and you’re going to have this perfect life together.”

    “I think you have a richer inner life than I do.” I was watching the late-middle aged ESE woman at the next table, who was sitting with her Alpha female friends but was listening to us talk.
    ”I’m just waiting for the third date, when I can get laid”, I said clearly.
    The ESE got a sour expression on her face and turned back to her friends. My buddy, unaware of her, just laughed at my comment.

    He said, ”I met this little oriental woman. She was so perfect. She just said what she meant. So practical and down to earth. I went out to California to be with her.” He paused, staring at his ale. “Then I came back here.
    “She didn’t.”
    An awkward few seconds passed.

    ”Hey!” He perked up. “I wanted to show you a video I found online. Get your opinion of the woman.” He tapped his phone a few times and handed it to me. “I’m not going to say anything about her.” He was pretty excited.

    I watched the video. It showed a complete jerk interviewing an attractive but clearly thoughtful blonde. My first impression was that she was IEI, but I gradually started to see the possibility of her being LIE.
    ”She might be your Dual”, I said.

    “A Dual. That’s good, right?”

    ”Yes, usually.
    ”What is it about her that you find attractive?”

    ”Oh, I don’t know. She seems like someone I could talk to for a long time and not get bored.”

    ”Duals are good, usually. They don’t step on your toes. But not every Dual is going to be a great match.
    ”For example, I was dating a woman who was a Dual, but she didn’t seem very interested in going out with me. In fact, the last time we texted, I asked her out and she told me that she had to clean her garage that day.”

    My buddy stared at me and then laughed. “Ironically?”

    ”No, I imagine she was serious.”

    My buddy imitates a woman’s voice; “Oh, Adam! I really like you, but seeing you falls somewhere between cleaning out my garage and a root canal.”

    ”Yeah, that’s about right.
    You know, we’re both fucked. There are no good women left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    It's warmth, senstivity, loyalty, and reliability that do predict relationship stability, as does attachment, because it's a catch-all construct for these previous relationship prerequisites
    It pleases me greatly when some normie tier youtube channel mentions something I've been harping on. Still, this is the better vid in regards to the subject:



    I do dig how your video mentioned NICU and how that can be a big problem. Hell, I've mentioned it elsewhere. You could win the lottery and be born to the warmest, most loving, and over all best parents ever. But you were a preme baby and yeah, human nature/neurochemistry/etc. is what it is and you can't just undo that. So you end up with broken attachment anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    I imagine there are some people who are types to grow on you after a few dates (who you don’t find immediately hot/nice), but when you’re tired of using apps..it’s nice to feel that immediate connection I suppose.
    I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it again. Do not use "dating aps" if you can avoid it. They exist to connect the broken with the broken. "Hook-Up" culture is horrible for everyone involved but exponentially horrible for women. A "Rake"/Cassanova/Don Juan can reform himself without too much damage to his future marriage prospects if he catches himself early enough into his fall. A "Whore" will find it almost impossible to recover from that reputation. "Can't turn an ho' into a housewife" as they say in the rapper community.

    Women know it in their bones by right of their sexuality. As do men. I'm a victim type and let me tell you I am absolutely disgusted every time I see these demons try to push how wonderful it'd be for women to "princess carry" their man to bed and essentially assume the masculine role as if they were men. Yeah, that's not how it ought to be.

    For us masculine/male victims it's the secret reality that's so delicious. Everyone else, even our direct blood relations, think we're all prim and proper. We're a "Catholic" couple properly wed by an ordained priest. We had an open bar for the after party but we hired discreet bartenders who knew when to "dial back" the alcohol content so nobody ever hit blackout unless they pre-gamed it as it were.

    She didn't ever dream of attempting to physically carry me. She was/is smarter and more understanding of what we both want. She knows in the marrow of her bones how a pretty face combined with a subtle glance with just the right clothing and makeup can, has, and always will accomplish things legions cannot and will never. She may just kiss me, or she may demand I do so with but a glance with eyes so hungry I can't possibly refuse her. Either way, who the "aggressor" is is obvious and it sure as hell ain't me. And that's what I want from my paramour.

    Cleopatra damn near fucked Rome twice over for damned good reason. She successfully wrapped both Ceasar and Mark Antony around her thumb quite effectively. Despite being popularly labeled as a "whore" by Roman society BTW.



    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post

    I watched the video. It showed a complete jerk interviewing an attractive but clearly thoughtful blonde. My first impression was that she was IEI, but I gradually started to see the possibility of her being LIE.
    You know, we’re both fucked. There are no good women left.”
    Do not give into the sin of despair @Adam Strange or anyone else here. There are indeed good women/men out there for you to meet, greet, get to know, fall for, and propose to. They may not be your duals, but they can be "good enough" as I constantly point out. (I think this may be a theme of the Delta types. I know my mom is a Delta and my sister in law's sister's husband is also a delta and he immediately warmed up to me when I mentioned that concept to him).

    If you make "perfection" the enemy of the good than you'll both fail to make optimal profits and, more tragically, fail to find happiness in life. A "Semi-Dual" is "good enough" as it were. Infinitely so if both people are fully willing to be truly vulnerable to each other. Hell, maybe my future wife is an ESE. If she was willing to be completely open with me I'd likely try to make it work. At that point she'd have reciprocated my attempts at being vulnerable. It might hurt somehow, but at least they're trying just as hard as I am.

    That deserves at least a little bit of perseverance on my part ...

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    @End what's wrong with whores?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    @End what's wrong with whores?
    Nothing in and of itself, but all kinds of things if one is looking for Wife/Husband material. It's exponentially more difficult for a woman to recover from attaining the reputation of being a "whore" than it is for a man to recover from attaining the reputation of being a "skirt chaser" (i.e. the male version of a whore).

    If a woman has a "body count" in the double digits by the time she's 20 most "virtuous" men won't have anything to do with them. Subconsciously because she probably isn't going to be loyal to you even if you put ring on that and consciously because that screams attachment issues so bad she's willing to let dudes "Eifel Tower" her because she thinks that's the only way she can earn anyone's affection. That latter fact is supremely unattractive to men of virtue as, well, if she values herself so low so as to eagerly indulge in that abject humiliation how can she expect me to value her highly enough to spend the rest of my life with her?

    Those two are linked by the way. A woman with bad attachment thinks and acts like sex is the nuclear option. It's the guaranteed (and sadly in so far as she is concerned) the ultimate and only winning move she can make. Want a man to do what you want? What you really want? Fuck him (literally) in exchange for him following orders (in whatever BS way that'd basically require mind-reading for the male to get right).

    Men with bad attachment are only too happy to oblige as, for them, sex is the ultimate expression of approval and acceptance they so desperately want yet dare not ask for. If she lets you fuck her she must love you right? Same goes for women. If he chooses to mate with you it's because he loves you right?

    Both sides are wrong on this critical issue for reasons I've laid out elsewhere. Knowing how you're wrong is a great step on the path towards being right. If anyone has a specific question on this front please ask me. I am not obsessive enough about myself to be able to recall the exact posts where I dealt with that. I can, however, give you an answer regardless. The disclaimer of "Don't ask questions you don't really want answered" still applies though.

    I suck at so don't bet on me being gentle or putting it all in a non-offensive manner. You'll get an answer though. An answer you can trust was given in good faith.

  24. #584

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Nothing in and of itself, but all kinds of things if one is looking for Wife/Husband material. It's exponentially more difficult for a woman to recover from attaining the reputation of being a "whore" than it is for a man to recover from attaining the reputation of being a "skirt chaser" (i.e. the male version of a whore).

    If a woman has a "body count" in the double digits by the time she's 20 most "virtuous" men won't have anything to do with them. Subconsciously because she probably isn't going to be loyal to you even if you put ring on that and consciously because that screams attachment issues so bad she's willing to let dudes "Eifel Tower" her because she thinks that's the only way she can earn anyone's affection. That latter fact is supremely unattractive to men of virtue as, well, if she values herself so low so as to eagerly indulge in that abject humiliation how can she expect me to value her highly enough to spend the rest of my life with her?

    Those two are linked by the way. A woman with bad attachment thinks and acts like sex is the nuclear option. It's the guaranteed (and sadly in so far as she is concerned) the ultimate and only winning move she can make. Want a man to do what you want? What you really want? Fuck him (literally) in exchange for him following orders (in whatever BS way that'd basically require mind-reading for the male to get right).

    Men with bad attachment are only too happy to oblige as, for them, sex is the ultimate expression of approval and acceptance they so desperately want yet dare not ask for. If she lets you fuck her she must love you right? Same goes for women. If he chooses to mate with you it's because he loves you right?

    Both sides are wrong on this critical issue for reasons I've laid out elsewhere. Knowing how you're wrong is a great step on the path towards being right. If anyone has a specific question on this front please ask me. I am not obsessive enough about myself to be able to recall the exact posts where I dealt with that. I can, however, give you an answer regardless. The disclaimer of "Don't ask questions you don't really want answered" still applies though.

    I suck at so don't bet on me being gentle or putting it all in a non-offensive manner. You'll get an answer though. An answer you can trust was given in good faith.

    I may be coming into this conversation a bit late but the talk of attachment issues is fascinating me, as I’m trying to heal mine (I have disorganized attachment), and I guess I just had to say something. Do you feel as if men who also have a “body count” in the double digits by the time they reach 20 have attachment issues as well? Just wondering cause I feel like it’s a weird double standard that women who do it tend to have issues but for men it’s normal and are seen as having no problems or attachment issues. Also what do you mean by “virtuous” men, and do you feel that “virtuous” woman would have a problem with a man who has a “body count” in the double digits when he’s twenty?

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    I respect your experience and perspective with these things but in my opinion, the issue is a little more nuanced than attachment issues.

    Sex, more often than not, is sometimes about the power exchange between two or more people engaging in sexual activity. That's why you find people who are willing to "give" it up to others in exchange for something --- they know that their value is usually deemed based on their body, external appearance and the like. I can empathize with these people to some degree. They feel as though that's the only form of power (and like you said, control) that they have over others and that they can use it to their advantage. It starts off feeling like a form of empowerment but down the end road they begin to lose themselves, lose self respect and the inner beauty/innocence within themselves. Sex becomes something perverse - a form of control and subordination - rather than a sacred (or enjoyable, pleasurable) act between others. Why do something you don't enjoy doing? They do it for the wrong reasons is what I'm saying...

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    Whether you have a lot of sex, have little or consider yourself celibate, it shouldn't matter. Your value and worth as a human being does not decrease based on your sexual history. I'd say an active woman could be a great wife if she wanted to if she had a partner who could satisfy her. Same thing with a man, or whoever. Sex is a natural thing and no one should be shamed for having these desires/urges. That's why they treat it like a game or form of control over others

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    I went on a date with an ESI-Fi yesterday. All she talked about were her relationships with the people she knows, and how most people think she’s either a crazy bitch or too meddlesome in their lives.

    Weirdly enough, I didn’t mind listening to her Fi-rants. They didn’t bother me at all. We went to a Middle-Eastern restaurant and ordered two meals and shared them to taste the food.

    When I dropped her off at her place, we stood next to my car and talked for a while. We talked, then she wanted a kiss before she went in, then we’d talk some more, then she wanted another kiss. This repeated over about thirty minutes, but then I said it was late and I had to go.

    When I got home, I had a dream. I was back in the time just after my divorce, when I was hanging out at a restaurant with an IEI-Fe and her younger, mostly beta crew, which included one 22-year old ESI-Fi who actually liked me. The beta crew reminded me of the cliques in high school; inclusive and exclusive and hungry and incredibly competitive. The IEI-Fe had taken a picture of me and a young girl and posted it on Instagram with the title, “Beauty and the Beast”. Lol. An IEI view of an LIE.

    Anyway, in the dream, I had decided to go see a movie, which I almost never do. As I was crossing the parking lot, I ran into two of the girls from the Beta crew from the restaurant. They were, strangely enough, the girls I recognized and scruffy mutts at the same time. They laughed and approached me and were obviously going to the movie theater and were whispering to each other. I said, “Don’t worry. I won’t try to sit with you.”

    They ran ahead and disappeared into the theater. When I got to the ticket counter, I couldn’t remember which movie I wanted to see.

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    I have a secure attachment to yo mamma
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    get ready to get cucked
    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    got this Socionics stuff caught by the balls

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    Quote Originally Posted by iamablueberrymadeoflove View Post
    I may be coming into this conversation a bit late but the talk of attachment issues is fascinating me, as I’m trying to heal mine (I have disorganized attachment), and I guess I just had to say something. Do you feel as if men who also have a “body count” in the double digits by the time they reach 20 have attachment issues as well? Just wondering cause I feel like it’s a weird double standard that women who do it tend to have issues but for men it’s normal and are seen as having no problems or attachment issues. Also what do you mean by “virtuous” men, and do you feel that “virtuous” woman would have a problem with a man who has a “body count” in the double digits when he’s twenty?
    I believe I already spelled it out. The broken seek the broken, and men with high body counts seek out, find, and sadly add to the body counts of the women they bang. To spell it out, yes. If a dude has a high body count by the time he's 20 he's likely to have major issues. When I read "The Art of Seduction" one of the archetypes the author mentioned, the rake, is one of only 2 archetypes that is gender locked (it can only be a male whereas "the siren" can only ever be female). They are, essentially, examples of their sex with major attachment issues. I mean hell, he even succeeded in mentioning Lord Byron and Marylin Monroe as excellent examples of those types and they were utterly fucked in the head. Something I was actually hoping he'd do as, given my knowledge of attachment issues, were figures I would have bet loaned money on them having and thus fitting the archetype he was laying out.

    Fun fact: He pointed out how "the rake" is often catastrophically successful against what most would consider "virtuous" women. Surely, her virtue can reform this immensely seductive bad boy. If he wasn't so busted she might have been right. More often than not, sadly, it is she who gets strung along by the likes of a Don Juan, Richelieu, or Byron. To flip the genders wonder not at how sirens have been the abject ruin of nations. Cleopatra and Marylin Monroe are perfect examples of Sirens. Men have a big problem in any attempt to resist their seductions just as women are hard pressed to resist the tempations rakes provide them.

    I do note that, if properly directed towards virtuous ends, I can clearly see how such men and women could actually fill a niche in society that'd be awesome for everyone involved. A rake that'd allow a truly wonderful woman to reform him about 98% of the way. She wouldn't dream of fully eliminating his ultimately flirtatious nature. Yeah, he flirts with other women, but he married her and he only does it now because he knows how happy and aroused it makes her when he kisses her in front of this young and naieve harlot.

    The fantasy of the Siren is a wee bit simpler to understand. A sensuous stripper doesn't really "bang" all her "clients" as it were. Other men touch her as they slip the money in, but that's just "business". Ultimately shameful business but business nonetheless. All those other men throw money/attention at her, but only you are reciprocated. Many, many men pined for Cleopatra and made concrete efforts to win her affections, but only Ceasar (and later, Mark Antony) got their devotions reciprocated.

    In regards to healing your issues I wish you the best. Trying to heal mine has been a vastly rewarding experience. I'm almost "good enough" far as I can tell. I may somewhat bitch at having to supervise my LSE mother, but she does agree with me on this front. I am indeed onto something.

    All that remains now is to just be the best version of myself and count on how my own personality type will necessarily attract the factors required for success onto itself. All I need do now is, essentially, trust in my God. I offer of myself freely. May my destined mate find me willing and waiting...

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    Whenever I hear about a "strong, independent" woman, I think about how many dicks she had to suck to get there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    get ready to get cucked
    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    got this Socionics stuff caught by the balls

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    I’ve been thinking recently about the women I’ve been dating since my divorce. They have mostly been ESIs, but there have been a couple IEIs and an LSI in there. And my EII secretary, but I’ve not considered what we have been doing as “dating”.
    The thing that has worried me is that I like all of these women, but I don’t want to marry any of them. I’ve been concerned that some important part of me broke since my first marriage, but I couldn’t figure out what that might have been.

    But I think I have figured it out. I want a woman who is stronger than I am. My SLI ex was. Not physically stronger, but she was more determined than I am on some level, and I’m looking for a woman who can handle herself. Someone who is more forceful ( 3D Se vs my 2D Se) than I am. Who is also morally inflexible. Not a pushover.

    This sounds like an ESI, and I think it could be an ESI, but so far, I haven’t met the right one yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I’ve been thinking recently about the women I’ve been dating since my divorce. They have mostly been ESIs, but there have been a couple IEIs and an LSI in there. And my EII secretary, but I’ve not considered what we have been doing as “dating”.
    The thing that has worried me is that I like all of these women, but I don’t want to marry any of them. I’ve been concerned that some important part of me broke since my first marriage, but I couldn’t figure out what that might have been.

    But I think I have figured it out. I want a woman who is stronger than I am. My SLI ex was. Not physically stronger, but she was more determined than I am on some level, and I’m looking for a woman who can handle herself. Someone who is more forceful ( 3D Se vs my 2D Se) than I am. Who is also morally inflexible. Not a pushover.

    This sounds like an ESI, and I think it could be an ESI, but so far, I haven’t met the right one yet.
    Do you not think you should be more forceful and morally inflexible yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Do you not think you should be more forceful and morally inflexible yourself?
    No, @FreelancePoliceman, I don’t.

    The ESIs I’ve met are already really morally inflexible, and they immediately “do” things (exert force) in the real world, right now. What I’ve see me bring to the table is a -perhaps- Ne-based approach to moral behavior in which I explain to ESIs why life is not black-or-white. Why people might do something, not because they are good or bad people, but rather because their logic, or circumstances, drive them to some temporary solution (which might change).
    ESIs won’t tell you this, but they really are very black-or-white people. Probably their LIE Duals are best at being able to introduce some shades-of-gray understanding into their moral pantheon.

    Furthermore, my intuition of the future is pretty well developed, while theirs is not. This fear of the future (and ESIs are often e6) causes them to do things immediately, while I am better at judging how much time there might be available for juggling multiple projects.

    My problem with having stronger Ni is that, while juggling multiple projects, some don’t get done. Moreover, I can easily get lost in the possible chess moves and forget to MOVE THE DAMNED PAWN NOW. ESIs don’t do that. Their fear of not meeting their Fi promises makes them do things RIGHT NOW. This makes them seem (to me) strong and focused and taking care of business.
    They cover my back in real world action-type situations, which makes them seem strong to me.

    This is all theory of Duals, though. The way I actually feel is that I lack the ability to apply force in the real world but I wish I could (Se-HA). I might be able to plot the future, but I feel vulnerable (Victim) to physical actions which could be taken against me.
    In reality, I’m quite strong, but I feel like I need the hair-trigger awareness of danger that ESIs have and use to defend against physical threats. They are the canaries in the coal mine who call me, from my Ni-dream state, back to the world so I can bring the big guns into play.

    In turn, my Ni serves them by letting them know which threats are dangerous and which are not. You may have seen pictures where LIEs are characterized as knights, serving their mistress. There is a lot of truth to that. The knight needs the strong and immediate mistress who loves him, and he, in turn, turns the sword to the outer world.

    You, Freelance, being a mirror-image of LIEs with regard to the functions, should be able to make a nearly identical argument regarding your relationship with your own Duals, flipping only the extroversion and introversion of the functions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    No, @FreelancePoliceman, I don’t.

    The ESIs I’ve met are already really morally inflexible, and they immediately “do” things (exert force) in the real world, right now. What I’ve see me bring to the table is a -perhaps- Ne-based approach to moral behavior in which I explain to ESIs why life is not black-or-white.
    Ugh, this happens a lot with my LIE. I still haven't recovered from the last time. "Why you have to be ruthless also, and step on people to get ahead sometimes." I have cried and had more of an existential crisis than I want to admit. Sometimes I feel like I wasn't meant for this world. It's too cruel.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Leviathan View Post
    Ugh, this happens a lot with my LIE. I still haven't recovered from the last time. "Why you have to be ruthless also, and step on people to get ahead sometimes." I have cried and had more of an existential crisis than I want to admit. Sometimes I feel like I wasn't meant for this world. It's too cruel.
    I'm having a hard time telling who said what to whom in the above scenario, but tell him he needs to be more sympathetic to your side. Most people aren't bad, but they could stand to learn some finesse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I'm having a hard time telling who said what to whom in the above scenario, but tell him he needs to be more sympathetic to your side. Most people aren't bad, but they could stand to learn some finesse.
    Quoted was him. Sharing only bc I would like to see what others say about it. Perhaps hes wrong and doesnt realize. Idk.

    Anyway, yeah...he said basically the same thing in response to my meltdown. "It's not all black" (left the white out this time)

    EDIT
    Basically, in my mind, if stepping on others to get ahead is necessary, the way this world works is fucking cruel. Animals needing to eat each other alive to survive is bad enough. Metaphorically...I am like an animal that would rather die than eat others to survive because I don't have the heart for this shit. I'm cursed with too much empathy and idealism.

    Ignore this, I just always take things into the personal realm without meaning to. I struggle to be impersonal, I drag convos to a less generalized and more intimate space by nature. It can be annoying to others or inappropriate for social settings. Soc IV blindness and 99% Sx.

    Point was: accurate af post you wrote.
    Last edited by Lady Lioness; 06-02-2022 at 06:01 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Leviathan View Post
    Quoted was him. Sharing only bc I would like to see what others say about it. Perhaps hes wrong and doesnt realize. Idk.

    Anyway, yeah...he said basically the same thing in response to my meltdown. "It's not all black" (left the white out this time)

    EDIT
    Basically, in my mind, if stepping on others to get ahead is necessary, the way this world works is fucking cruel. Animals needing to eat each other alive to survive is bad enough. Metaphorically...I am like an animal that would rather die than eat others to survive because I don't have the heart for this shit. I'm cursed with too much empathy and idealism.
    This is weird. I’ve never seen an ESI step on someone to get ahead. I have often seen ESIs reprimanding people for not doing the right thing, but that’s very different.
    I’ve never seen an LIE step on someone to get ahead, either. I’ve seen them confront people, or tell them to get off the bus, or decide that they are not worth dealing with, but stepping on someone seems to be outside the range of ESI-LIE behavior that I’ve seen.

    To step on someone, you have to believe that they are less than you are, but Gammas are democratic. Maybe your LIE is misinterpreting your actions.

    I could see a Gamma refusing to play with someone, but I have a harder time imagining a Gamma stepping on a person.

    As for you being ruthless, well, sometimes you have to draw a line to enforce boundaries. It’s amazing how some people will treat you like a piece of trash if you let them. They will piss on you and tell you it’s raining.
    Dealing ruthlessly with people who are not honest with you is a very good approach, in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This is weird. I’ve never seen an ESI step on someone to get ahead. I have often seen ESIs reprimanding people for not doing the right thing, but that’s very different.
    I’ve never seen an LIE step on someone to get ahead, either. I’ve seen them confront people, or tell them to get off the bus, or decide that they are not worth dealing with, but stepping on someone seems to be outside the range of ESI-LIE behavior that I’ve seen.

    To step on someone, you have to believe that they are less than you are, but Gammas are democratic. Maybe your LIE is misinterpreting your actions.

    I could see a Gamma refusing to play with someone, but I have a harder time imagining a Gamma stepping on a person.

    As for you being ruthless, well, sometimes you have to draw a line to enforce boundaries. It’s amazing how some people will treat you like a piece of trash if you let them. They will piss on you and tell you it’s raining.
    Dealing ruthlessly with people who are not honest with you is a very good approach, in my opinion.
    I think I didn't explain clearly and it resulted in misunderstanding. Anyway, he was pretty much saying the same things you've said. Note that I've been drinking and probably miscommunicated. *Hide the pain meme*

    I could not love someone who stepped on others to get ahead for no reason besides gain.
    Last edited by Lady Lioness; 06-02-2022 at 07:01 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    But I think I have figured it out. I want a woman who is stronger than I am. My SLI ex was. Not physically stronger, but she was more determined than I am on some level, and I’m looking for a woman who can handle herself. Someone who is more forceful ( 3D Se vs my 2D Se) than I am. Who is also morally inflexible. Not a pushover.

    This sounds like an ESI, and I think it could be an ESI, but so far, I haven’t met the right one yet.
    Yeah, but you're also a man and "men" must act in certain ways if they are both to be considered "healthy" and stand a good chance at landing an ideal romantic relationship. Few truly know where the term "Masochism" comes from. I do. While I've never read that particular literary work from that particular author I've read the synopsis of the plot and I'll say this. A man who attempts to pass the "leadership" role in all things to the woman will get cucked as harshly and cruelly as Severin did.

    I'm not being sexist here. I'm stating a fact. If a female is being told/demanded by her culture to vault over the trench and lead a charge over "No Man's Land" something has gone profoundly wrong.

    The "Aggressor" female still rightfully expects her "Victim" ideal partner to lead the charge. I know I would for many a reason. Plus that major idiosyncrasy would drive me (and her) wild. Who could or would imagine the man who lead that charge would be so "weak" as to allow his ideal lover to pin him down and have her way with him so eagerly? How could she relish the thought of making such a "bold move" herself that the fantasy overtook her and she did exactly that in a moment of her own personal weakness only to have a sexual encounter that made her orgasm so many times she literally ached down there for the next week?

    I can tell you and any other who would ask why...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I could see a Gamma refusing to play with someone, but I have a harder time imagining a Gamma stepping on a person.
    I'd have agreed with you up until a day or two ago where I had an epiphany. See, for the lost/broken, people aren't people as I assume we'd both define the term. For the lost/broken, people are in actuality objects. Tools. Things that either do as they ought or, if they do not, need to be manipulated and disciplined into doing as they ought. Case in point? How Amber Herd treated Depp. Holy fuck what a shitshow BTW. That he actually won surprised me (eternal cynic that I am) but I digress.

    We'd never dream of treating another human being as anything but. That's pretty much gamma made manifest. We're dealing with truly sentient humans/equals. They deserve our utmost respect and the freedom to make any choice they may wish no matter how hard we may want to scream at them how bad their choices are. It's their choice to make and once we've said our piece and they choose the worst option we can imagine we can and will only say "you will regret that harder than you can probably conceive of" with an air of absolute certainty.

    Sadly, such an utterance fails to sway most...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    In turn, my Ni serves them by letting them know which threats are dangerous and which are not. You may have seen pictures where LIEs are characterized as knights, serving their mistress.
    Such is how the Victim/Aggressor dynamic unfolds if the "traditional" genders get flipped. We are the chivalrous knights devoted to our most worthy of princesses. Like I've said elsewhere, if you have in your program or creative function slot as a man you will crave a "strong" (i.e. valuing) woman. And she will you as well. Nobody, especially a true aggressor, wants a true doormat who just follows her blindly and unquestioningly. The greatest conquests are hard won after all.

    Her most egregious demands will be met with firm and absolute refusal. She will test us on that front and we will ultimately pass it when we steadfastly and adamantly tell her "No". If she demands what is essentially impossible anyway after that than she's among the lost. Princess Kaguya was/is a perfect example of a lost cause. A woman who would not ever settle for what is actually possible for her to attain. That her suitors refused to realize that does, sadly, speak to a truth. Far too many men value beauty/sexiness over character and/or clearly observable patterns of behavior...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post

    When I got home, I had a dream. I was back in the time just after my divorce, when I was hanging out at a restaurant with an IEI-Fe and her younger, mostly beta crew, which included one 22-year old ESI-Fi who actually liked me. The beta crew reminded me of the cliques in high school; inclusive and exclusive and hungry and incredibly competitive. The IEI-Fe had taken a picture of me and a young girl and posted it on Instagram with the title, “Beauty and the Beast”. Lol. An IEI view of an LIE.
    .
    aw noo..I’m not sure I’ve ever consciously thought that about an LIE (apart from the weird woman I work with but honestly I think she reminds me of myself in a way!! Yikes). Maybe all types see their supervisor this way. Maybe it is a bit more exaggerated with IEI/LIE. Even if I do think like that I think the thought is usually gone in a flash and I probably think most people are beast-like at times lol. I think of IEEs as a threat to my actual life sometimes but I still love them..remember I said I was trying to think of an LIE who didn’t feel like a typical supervisor? Well I realised my friend’s ex is LIE, not LSE like I originally thought. I don’t get that typical supervisor feeling from him. Outwardly he seems tough but gentle. I like people who seem like si types even if they aren’t, although I’m not sure these are always the best people for me.

    oh the young LIE guy I was working with told me he was leaving. I was all like “aw will I see you before you leave!” He kinda pulled a face like he was annoyed I said that. Men are so odd sometimes- they hound you for attention one minute and then act like you’re a clingy beast the next lol.
    Last edited by Bethany; 06-03-2022 at 09:51 AM.

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