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Thread: Does intelligence and type have any link?

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    Default Does intelligence and type have any link?

    This thread has probably already been posted like 3 times before, but it's still an interesting question. I know personally most people I'd call smart are NT's, though ofc there are definitely a very sizable share of pretty dumb NT's. Honestly I'd just like to know what a smart SF would look like(NF or ST too if you want). Actually, please turn this thread into a bunch of examples of people you think are smart/wise and their types.

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    Last edited by pandemic candy; 07-20-2021 at 12:58 AM.

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    In the absence of reliable data I don't know that this question is very answerable, but from my own anecdotal experience I would say that type heavily influences whether or not someone will perceive a given person to be intelligent or not, but doesn't have much of an effect on whether they are actually intelligent. Of course one of the major issues with this question is how we are defining intelligence. Some types will be predisposed to collecting info or to dismantling and understanding things, and in that sense I can see there being a link, but that's not really an objective measure of intelligence. You might give two people the same IQ test for example and be very surprised at the results because the person with a PhD in some biomedical field may actually have a lower IQ than the other person who was a bar bouncer or something. Maybe someone with a technically very high IQ has their life in shambles while someone else of more modest score has a family, great job, lives comfortably, and their YA novel just got published and is being incredibly well-received. I don't mean to say that IQ is not a valuable measure. I reject that idea entirely, but I only mean to say that your question demands a very clear understanding of what intelligence is in this context. Is it IQ? Their educational achievement? Their overall success in life? How much trivia they have accumulated? I don't know where to begin when answering this question, but I suspect people's answers will be more valuable the more clearly intelligence is being defined.

    That being said, here are my hunches (which you should probably pay little heed to because they're not based on much):

    IQ and type ~ little to no link
    Educational achievement and type ~ small to moderate link
    Life success ~ small to moderate link, but will depend on person's relationship to their culture (own quadra matching cultural quadra values likely to lead to greater success)
    Information/skills accumulated ~ likely the strongest link probably due to positioning of the logical elements

    If any link is statistically significant then I'm guessing it's the last one, however I doubt most of these would be significant relationships, but just very slight trends with regard to the total world population. That's assuming that you could somehow accurately assess your measure of intelligence AND be 100% sure of all participants' types
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    Well with how IQ is measure with logic and pattern recognition, NT types are probably going to score the highest. You will probably see Ti slightly higher than Te, since IQ tests systemize in a very Ti-like way. Interestingly enough, there is more Te in our society, and so Ti may be seen as “more intelligent”, because it is something that most do not have an access to more so.

    I think any type can have high IQ, but it is inevitable that NT’s are going to have highest IQ, and LII with Ti, will be highest representative. I would argue IEI can also have higher IQ and I am not saying that just because I am an IEI with a higher IQ, but because of Ti HA and Ni is more concentrated than Ne, so it may be more able focus on IQ examination, combined with Se suggestive pressure of time and being analyze how much time we have on a question to move in to next.. And Ne may more so wander around with looking for too many possibility and not being able limit from them. I think IEI would be most likely in having high IQ of an NF, and then LSI probably for ST, and for SF, SEI.
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    I think ILE would have hardest time on IQ test generally (of an NT type), because of Ne being pondered more and then ignoring Ni.

    Not all of us with high functioning autism have high IQ, but we are indeed more likely than general population to have above average intelligence, and Ni base directly correlates to autism. Gulenko and Jung made this observation, and then I specifically myself see how suggestive Se can fit with the sensory seeking behavior from being too trapped into our inertia (Ni base) which makes us more accident-prone, and Te PolR for impaired executive functioning whereas Fe PolR for constricted effect.
    Last edited by Braingel; 07-20-2021 at 01:41 AM.
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    Personally I think that for "intelligence" to be a useful metric we should try to build some kind of super-measure which includes and properly weights the measures of IQ, life success, educational achievement, their skills (How many sports can they play? How many languages can they speak? What things do they know how to build/repair? etc.), perception of intelligence by others, and a score on some sort of comprehensive exam which tests for knowledge in a diverse array of fields in order to establish both the person's depth AND breadth of knowledge. This test is impossible, but I feel that it's approximately what people mean when they say "intelligence" casually. They're referring to some internal metric which they subconsciously have created that weights these various things according to their own values. If there was ever to be an intelligence test to rule them all, it'd be something like this I think
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    Personally I think that for "intelligence" to be a useful metric we should try to build some kind of super-measure which includes and properly weights the measures of IQ, life success, educational achievement, their skills (How many sports can they play? How many languages can they speak? What things do they know how to build/repair? etc.), perception of intelligence by others, and a score on some sort of comprehensive exam which tests for knowledge in a diverse array of fields in order to establish both the person's depth AND breadth of knowledge. This test is impossible, but I feel that it's approximately what people mean when they say "intelligence" casually. They're referring to some internal metric which they subconsciously have created that weights these various things according to their own values. If there was ever to be an intelligence test to rule them all, it'd be something like this I think
    I think IQ testing in their current format slag on some metric of assessing cross-contextual thinking, such as weighing in possibility or creativity problem solving. Though the presumption I imagine is that of you can spot pattern faster, you can more with speed, create.
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    I think SEEs are MUCH smarter than people give them credit for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post







    If these go by letter dichotomy, then it would not measure the function. So INFP for instance, may be Ni-Fe, despite it being Fi-Ne by MBTI. It would be the perceiving lead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braingel View Post
    If these go by letter dichotomy, then it would not measure the function. So INFP for instance, may be Ni-Fe, despite it being Fi-Ne by MBTI. It would be the perceiving lead.
    @Braingel. True. Probably not the most accurate but interesting to look at.

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    @pandemic candy While these data are appreciated, they seem to all be from MBTI. I'm suspicious they were gathered via one of the various (mostly pretty useless) MBTI type quizzes out there. Additionally, the gifted/normal graph looks super sus to me. I don't know how they are defining "gifted" on top of their typing methods likely being questionable. We also can't see the sizes of the sample populations used, how they were chosen, or from where. Even if a few of the trends hold (for example I'm not surprised at all that Te-bases make the most money) I think if the studies were done rigorously then the variances would be much smaller than that
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    For the ILE, yes, they may be able eventually reach the right logic, but IQ also has do with speed. If you are in a situation where you need decode logic and look for pattern, the more you sway and get caught up in your thoughts, the more you are going to side track from finding the correct one and that in real life will affect attention span and how well your intelligence operates at an accessible level. I don’t like psych medication, but something like an ADD med may make them more able focus, if that is an issue, since Ne bases often appear have ADD or ADHD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    @pandemic candy While these data are appreciated, they seem to all be from MBTI. I'm suspicious they were gathered via one of the various (mostly pretty useless) MBTI type quizzes out there. Additionally, the gifted/normal graph looks super sus to me. I don't know how they are defining "gifted" on top of their typing methods likely being questionable. We also can't see the sizes of the sample populations used, how they were chosen, or from where. Even if a few of the trends hold (for example I'm not surprised at all that Te-bases make the most money) I think if the studies were done rigorously then the variances would be much smaller than that
    I think the last chart is accurate though

    Look at the poor INFPs vs ENTJs lmao

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braingel View Post
    I think ILE would have hardest time on IQ test generally, because of Ne being pondered more and then ignoring Ni.

    Not all of us with high functioning autism have high IQ, but we are indeed more likely than general population to have above average intelligence, and Ni base directly correlates to autism. Gulenko and Jung made this observation, and then I specifically myself see how suggestive Se can fit with the sensory seeking behavior from being too trapped into our inertia (Ni base) which makes us more accident-prone, and Te PolR for impaired executive functioning whereas Fe PolR for constricted effect.
    I meant ILE having hardest time of an NT type, by the way.
    The types that would have it hardest would be IEE and SEE, but probably more IEE, since it ignores Ni, and SEE whilst having weak Ni, does not ignore it. Both have Ti PolR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    I think the last chart is accurate though

    Look at the poor INFPs vs ENTJs lmao
    Yeah, I definitely think it's measuring something. It's data, so of course it's accurate in the sense that however they happened to measure type it seems to predict that those who score ENTJ will make way more money than those who score as INFP. The bit that's questionable is whether the way they measured type was really measuring type in a useful way. Like if one of their questions meant to evaluate presence of Te was "Do you feel you have achieved a lot in the workplace?" then of course that's going to correlate with financial success. Is that a good question for measuring Te though? It might be. I'm not saying that it isn't, but just that there may be any number of questions which are unintentionally biased in such a way as to inevitably correlate X type with Y financial outcome.

    Sorry that was kind of long-winded, but I do agree with you ultimately that the graph is probably at least sort of right about a few of these. I can say anecdotally that, as predicted, I am certainly not making that much money
    Last edited by AWellArmedCat; 07-20-2021 at 01:39 AM. Reason: Fixed a spelling mistake "correlated" -> "correlate"
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    Well, It depends how you define intelligence so to speak. That old famous saying, you can't judge a fishes ability to climb a tree. NT's have more of a theoretical intelligence, ST's have a more practical or organization intelligence, SF's have a strong EQ with practical human understanding, NF have EQ with a more big picture of human understanding and suffering. Anything 'logical' depending in the specialty, I look for the intelligence of NT's or St's. Anything dealing with people or groups I look For EQ in fellow SF's or NF's. Besides, I think we can find some people 'intelligent' to us and some people "not intelligent" depending on the individuals view on IQ.

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    Despite there being a lot of variation, research did show that people can tell (with somewhat reasonable accuracy) how smart a man is but not a woman. However, the research's conclusions were handicapped due to lack of Socionics knowledge.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._but_Not_Women

    origin-1.jpg
    origin.jpg

    For the females, the ones with high perceived intelligence resembles alpha NT rationals (LII-Ti, and ILE-Ti). The others are harder to decipher but maybe someone can VI them.
    For the males, the ones with low perceived intelligence resembles SLE-Se's and SEE-Se's and the ones with high perceived intelligences appear to resemble ILI-Te's (maybe some ILEs, ESIs, or EIIs in the mix).

    It also appears that past a certain IQ threshold, people can no longer accurately estimate a person's intelligence and this applies to both genders. This makes me believe that type is controlled by a cluster of genes that partially influences intelligence. Since type does influence IQ but having an extremely high IQ is not type related, this makes me believe that smart SFs may in fact have type-independent genes that significantly alter IQ. In fact, it is safe to say that only type-independent gene combinations which significantly influence IQ can distort the stereotypical type-intelligence distribution. Since NT types are rarer than SF types (among white people based on my personal observations), it is more likely for an SF type to end up with a type-independent gene combination that significantly boosts IQ. This makes it harder to predict the type of extremely intelligent people (rather than them appearing too nerdy like the study claimed). For example, while NT types may be more academically inclined than SF types on average, it doesn't mean that all people with Down's syndrome are SFs. Similarly, child prodigies who can read at 6 months are also unlikely to cluster along certain types.

    Note: When I'm referring to NTs and SFs, I'm basically referring to all "smarter and dumber types" as stereotyped by the layman.

    For the lack of correlation in women, I also have some speculations:
    1. People may not be good at identifying rarer types in women because types appear to be more widely distributed among men. This may blur the profiles leading to VI confusion.
    2. ILI-Te's may be more intelligent than alpha NT rationals and the lack of gamma NTs in women could also influence the distribution.
    3. Women tend to be lower on the subtype distribution. This may mean that due to hormonal differences, SF women may be more intelligent than SF men while NT women are less intelligent than NT men.
    The research claimed that women with higher perceived intelligence appeared more attractive. This could be a result of the university environment rather than the halo effect since the participants were all students. Intelligent women may be perceived as more attractive because schools are very academically competitive and that prompts people to desire intelligent mates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    Despite there being a lot of variation, research did show that people can tell (with somewhat reasonable accuracy) how smart a man is but not a woman. However, the research's conclusions were handicapped due to lack of Socionics knowledge.
    hello there

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    i feel like such a neckbeard in this thread rn

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    Big five traits would yield more reliable results given that academe actually favors it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg View Post
    Big five traits would yield more reliable results given that academe actually favors it
    High openness is supposed to be indicative at a general rule of thumb.
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    @pandemic candy

    Excuse me sir, why do you keep mentioning me? Do I even know you???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braingel View Post
    High openness is supposed to be indicative at a general rule of thumb.
    Well said. openness encompasses intellect I think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braingel View Post
    For the ILE, yes, they may be able eventually reach the right logic, but IQ also has do with speed. If you are in a situation where you need decode logic and look for pattern, the more you sway and get caught up in your thoughts, the more you are going to side track from finding the correct one and that in real life will affect attention span and how well your intelligence operates at an accessible level. I don’t like psych medication, but something like an ADD med may make them more able focus, if that is an issue, since Ne bases often appear have ADD or ADHD.
    Ne bases actually have a correlation with a high amount of the chemical(norepinephrine) that causes adhd when in low supply. It's weird to think about, but while Ne bases do get distracted easily, they actually have much more focus, especially in stressful situations.

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    People high in openness tend to be more lonesome if they're not particularly extroverted I'd assume.
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    Depends on what you define as intelligence. I mean some people are unfairly portrayed as 'stupid' just because they are very emotionally sensitive or not very self-confident, or refuse to get into a bunch of dumb trailer trash park fights about topics with thinking types on the internet. Like people calling Neville an idiot on Harry Potter but Hermione defending him. And he proved to be one of the strongest and most tactical fighters at the end didn't he- once he got over his lack of self-confidence. "It's kind of scary how good he's getting."

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    yes. as does what you do more and better skills there
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    I've met smart and stupid of every type. The same operating system can be run on many computers. N-types are sometimes perceived as smarter or dumber (often naive or weird) because population wise, they're approximately 20% (if not, they're a definite minority) and their perspectives often differ greatly from S-types. Some Americans think that Brits are smarter because of their accents while some others think that they're dumb for the same reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I've met smart and stupid of every type. The same operating system can be run on many computers. N-types are sometimes perceived as smarter or dumber (often naive or weird) because population wise, they're approximately 20% (if not, they're a definite minority) and their perspectives often differ greatly from S-types. Some Americans think that Brits are smarter because of their accents while some others think that they're dumb for the same reason.

    a.k.a. I/O
    EQ's pretty much the same. It's more about where efforts are put imo.
    Tho, I think people who value their intelligence and/or are percieved as intelligent are more likely to end up with a T typing regardless of actual type. Similar for focus on EQ and F.
    It's like physical training, some people are built for strenght, others endurance but it doesn't mean they can't train for the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flowers and sugar View Post
    EQ's pretty much the same. It's more about where efforts are put imo.
    Tho, I think people who value their intelligence and/or are percieved as intelligent are more likely to end up with a T typing regardless of actual type. Similar for focus on EQ and F.
    It's like physical training, some people are built for strenght, others endurance but it doesn't mean they can't train for the opposite.
    I have not observed a higher EQ in F-types nor a higher IQ in T-types or differences in effort. F-types use value based rationalization, which distinct from emotion. Now I would agree that women, on average, tend to have higher EQ but IQ is evenly distributed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I have not observed a higher EQ in F-types nor a higher IQ in T-types or differences in effort. F-types use value based rationalization, which distinct from emotion. Now I would agree that women, on average, tend to have higher EQ but IQ is evenly distributed.

    a.k.a. I/O
    I meant the people who focus on IQ seems more likely to believe themselves or be believed as T types, stereotypes do that. Similar for EQ and F. We are saying the same thing from different points of view.
    Women are raised into EQ, because that's how people think women are.

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    I disagree with your findings though, based on the research I posted above there might actually be some sort of correlation even though reality is more complicated.
    @Rebelondeck

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    The people with the highest IQ in the world is an EIE WOMAN

    There are different types of intelligence IMO
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    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  35. #35
    Surreal's Avatar
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    Yes but I think the correlation only applies to people within the normal range. Being mentally retarded is also not type related. @Beautiful sky

  36. #36
    Sah Kel Plaisir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    The people with the highest IQ in the world is an EIE WOMAN

    There are different types of intelligence IMO
    The person with the highest IQ is actually Terence Tao,who is probably an LII.

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    There are plenty of SFs that seem solidly above average/low gifted range and highly competent/intelligent by real world standards, but relatively few are geniuses as far as I can tell. I can easily imagine a Se-ESI being an Ivy League educated investment banker or lawyer
    Last edited by Averroes; 07-31-2021 at 12:43 PM.

  38. #38
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Averroes View Post
    There are plenty of SFs that seem solidly above average and highly competent/intelligent by real world standards, but relatively few are geniuses as far as I can tell. I can easily imagine a Se-ESI from a wealthy family having an ivy league education and making 6 figures as a lawyer or investment banker

    Not sure if I posted this before, but I know two ESIs with PhDs in physics. Also, there are these two guys, who are both ESI:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip_Thorne

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_May

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    If you mean IQ, I don't think it does.
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

  40. #40
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    There is a tendency for some types to get more involved in intellectual activities as much as some people are more abstract, others are better at solving practical problems. And IQ usually has a somewhat narrow view of intelligence. I think certain types are more likely to create mental connections that make scoring high on IQ tests easier, but it's all about connections. Everyone is making connections all the time, just the focus is different
    self-discovery
    self-development
    optimism
    relationships
    communication
    high ideals

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