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    Question I need advice

    I'm not usually the one to ask for personal advice, and relationship (issue) advice but this happened to me today for the first time.

    My Dad is an Fi valuer of some sort (prolly Gamma NT, based on the amount of Te he has), and I am pretty sure I'm not. We were eating curry in the yard and we have a deck outside our house and several tables where we sometimes eat outside in the good weather. I like my personal space, and a lot of it because I don't like people getting too close and intimate with me and because it's more comfortable that way. I have no problem sitting near him or talking to him but there was me and him in the yard and four other seats. I was out with my curry, and he came out with his. There didn't look to be a lot of space on the table, or beside me and he asked me to move up to let him sit down (keep in mind, there were four other spaced out seats and two tables spread out) and I said unwittingly (not out of malice) that I didn't want him to sit beside me.

    The next second out nowhere, he started cussing me out and calling me the b-word saying all these things about me, about how I'm not X because basically I wouldn't let him get close to me, and then he was like "this is what I get for trying to be close to DEAD". I tried to explain and apologize, but he was having none of it, so after his "rant", he just sat and ignored me, so we sat in silence for half an hour. At the end of my meal, I apologised and told him I like my personal space and thanked him for making me the curry. I went down to my room, and he has ignored me since.

    So how can I handle this situation and **try** to explain to him that I value personal space, and it is nothing personal against him? It seems like he took it the wrong way, and I didn't mean it that way. Any advice?

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    He should reasonably know this is an atypical situation (one that hasn't really arisen before). I don't think there's much more you can say other than say you like a bit of space/quiet space sometimes, that you were lost in thought etc., and that you did not mean to disrespect him.

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    Would you be comfortable hanging out with him in a different way, like watching a tv show, or film with him?

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    My parents have taken it very personally if I maintain distance from them - and I’m not even likely to say “I don’t want you to sit here,” I simply don’t participate - and they took it very personally, saying I hated them. Of course I don’t, but I do have avoidant attachment with them. It feels a bit like strangers, although strangers I’m used to, trying to be emotionally intimate and the knee jerk reaction is “ew”/repulsion even though I don’t hate them as people at all. Imagine if you yourself were in a situation someone was getting more intimate than you felt with them…it’s that kind of feeling.

    i think over time it has subsided though so I don’t think they believe it anymore. If he’s gamma them him exploding makes more sense mb due to valued Se and “respect” esp concerning family and loyalty etc. may tie into it, they can be a bit more harsh or punitive sounding if those things feel violated to them.

    your dad I think is hurt right now that you don’t want to be as close to him as he would like to be to you?
    I guess the question then is - in the long run, do you want to be close to him? Of not then that may be a difficult conversation to have.


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    Lol
    Let people vent their frustrations and settle down and then when things are calm again slip them a favorite dessert and a note saying “I love you I just don’t want to sit so close”
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    I do this too. My entire family could be eating in one room but I prefer to go take my food and eat in the other. Being around them and close doesn't feel good for me at times and I get anxious. They would verbally express that they didn't like me going in the other room. Funny thing is that when they do that more, I don't want to sit with them. We may see it as not personal but, as a parent, I think it can really hurt them. Like, why doesn't my kid not want to sit next to me? What did I do to deserve this? Am I a bad parent? What am I doing wrong? He seemed to have lashed out based on his own hurt feelings and reacted poorly. I think a lot of parents see their kid as an extension of themselves and forget how they are there own person and may view/react to things and them differently.
    My mom is a Te/Fi valuer and would get upset when I pushed her away. Especially when I was really upset and in emotional pain. When she would try to 'fix' it, say with a hug, she would get even more upset at me because I was resisting it. It was nothing personal, I just needed space and it was hurting me more but she couldn't see that. I think she was more upset with herself for not being able to help me then anything. It seems that people tend to react and project based on their own feelings rather then thinking about the situation. I still don't like to share and get too close but after a personal conversation, she was able to see my side more. It actually started with me talking about my cousin and then snowballed into how I dislike it when she invalidates me feelings or why I get upset. She took it surprisingly well.

    I would wait a little while for it too cool down. Maybe offer a peace offering like his favorite food or desert and have a conversation. It can show a sense of Fi with a peace offering and gamma types seem to like gifts in a sense. Te types like the facts, and as an SLE, you do have pretty good Te so playing on that may help. Using a lot of "I" statements and explain how you feel personally and not direct it back on him will help. I feel this, I feel that. When you do this, I feel this because....Making accusatory statements (when You do this, You make me feel..etc) tends to escalate these types of situations. Plus relationship experts always say to use I statements. Just be true to yourself and explain it the best you can to him and your view. If he reacts poorly then he is just not ready for the conversation then. It took my mom more time to be open too it too. Give it time for now and just be honest.

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    Odds are good that your dad has a lot of expectations for you and he wants to help you. Most Dads feel this way toward their kids.

    It may be that he was hoping to share some advice with you, and you seemed to reject his presence out of hand. More than just wanting your space, it probably seemed to him that you were rejecting him and all he was trying to do for you.

    I know that I had some real problems with my son not meeting my expectations, because I was doing the stupid, ignorant Father thing and saying to him, "I worked and I slaved to succeed and to give you a good life, and I've found that there is only ONE way to succeed in this world, and that's the way I succeeded, and so you should exactly repeat doing what I did, only better."

    There is a lot wrong with this kind of thinking, but fathers have the greatest hopes for their sons and want to see them succeed and sometimes they (me) have a hard time seeing that the kid is a completely different person with a completely different path, and that the kid wants to tread that path on his own. It seems simple enough, but a lot of parents (especially ExxJ parents) want to see their kids succeed where they didn't, or sooner than they did. It took my son years of screwing off before I realized that I couldn't live his life for him, and after I stopped trying to fix his life for him, we got on much better terms.

    Personally, I think your dad would benefit from some third party (your mom?) telling him that you are doing fine just as you are, and that you need to live your life, not his. You can try telling him this yourself, but it will have more impact coming from someone else, because he might still be thinking of you as a little kid who needs to be guided, rather than as a person who can stand and do well on his own two feet.

    Best of luck to you with this. He probably won't change his opinion overnight. You'll have to keep reminding him. Lol.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-16-2021 at 01:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Odds are good that your dad has a lot of expectations for you and he wants to help you. Most Dads feel this way toward their kids.

    It may be that he was hoping to share some advice with you, and you seemed to reject his presence out of hand. More than just wanting your space, it probably seemed to him that you were rejecting him and all he was trying to do for you.

    I know that I had some real problems with my son not meeting my expectations, because I was doing the stupid, ignorant Father thing and saying to him, "I worked and I slaved to succeed and to give you a good live, and I've found that there is only ONE way to succeed in this world, and that's the way I succeeded, and so you should exactly repeat doing what I did, only better."

    There is a lot wrong with this kind of thinking, but fathers have the greatest hopes for their sons and want to see them succeed and sometimes they (me) have a hard time seeing that the kid is a completely different person with a completely different path, and that the kid wants to tread that path on his own. It seems simple enough, but a lot of parents (especially ExxJ parents) want to see their kids succeed where they didn't, or sooner than they did. It took my son years of screwing off before I realized that I couldn't live his life for him, and after I stopped trying to fix his life for him, we got on much better terms.
    You know, I think this might be a Gamma NT thing as well because my ILI mother has had this exact conversation with me. Being a parent with Te + Ni in one's ego results in the ability to extrapolate how shitty the world can be for their kids, and this gives them anxiety - resulting in an approach that can seem limiting and controlling to the kid, but only intends to protect them from the perspective of the parent. It's unfortunately a lot to unpack for someone not in Gamma quadra. I haven't fully figured out how to handle my mom, although she is the most loving person I know - but I do believe it's important to realize Gamma NTs care very deeply, so much so that their desire to protect their loved ones can cloud their ability to see when it's perhaps doing more harm than good.

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    "this is what I get for trying to be close to DEAD"

    Sounds like he made it pretty clear that he was trying to get closer to 'you'. Maybe he doesn't know how to be closer to you without getting on you? I guess this situation has come up before in different contexts and I think that you have an idea of how you can gain perspective. Have you ever told him what you would like him to change without being in a heated situation ? Maybe at first you or him will be losing temper but with time it can smooth out
    Last edited by Kalinoche buenanoche; 07-16-2021 at 10:59 AM.

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    Well he's your dad so he's always going to try to get close to you and get to know you probably. I have noticed sometimes though Fi valuers will get try to get super close and intimate with me and it has made me feel awkward despite having 4D Fi myself, I suppose because mine isn't 'valued.' Is he LIE? LIEs especially I've noticed can be really needy with wanting closeness- it's weird. They are often like cold hardened assholes in public but on a one on one situation they want like these warm Fi fuzzies. The juxtaposition of that is weird to me and trolls me. I haven't known how to respond to them and sometimes I've felt guilty because they seem so soft and nice with this, like a dog begging for Fi scraps or something. lol.

    Don't push him away completely- but I think you two need to find an activity you both like to do together where you can kind of bond together without it hurting your Fi polr.

    I remember I always sat by myself at lunch in middle school & high school. Ppl thought it was cuz I was bullied and didn't fit in but I think even if I was treated like royalty and had lots of friends- I'd probably prefer this. And one on one I'll probably push the person away if they get too Fi and needy.

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    Sorry for the delay in response. I had to compile and respond to these all in a Notes document to organise them and keep my replies synced and together:

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    He should reasonably know this is an atypical situation (one that hasn't really arisen before). I don't think there's much more you can say other than say you like a bit of space/quiet space sometimes, that you were lost in thought etc., and that you did not mean to disrespect him.
    Yeah, I did that last night. I gave him space, and let him know what was up. He said I was rude, but I understand why now. He explained it, and things are better today as of lately, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by rtht View Post
    Would you be comfortable hanging out with him in a different way, like watching a tv show, or film with him?
    Yes. I prefer movies because we have something to discuss afterwards, you know? Like the plot and action scenes, or if it’s a comedy, something to laugh at. I think he gets quite a release from comedies, as far as I have observed over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by necrosebud View Post
    My parents have taken it very personally if I maintain distance from them - and I’m not even likely to say “I don’t want you to sit here,” I simply don’t participate - and they took it very personally, saying I hated them. Of course I don’t, but I do have avoidant attachment with them. It feels a bit like strangers, although strangers I’m used to, trying to be emotionally intimate and the knee jerk reaction is “ew”/repulsion even though I don’t hate them as people at all. Imagine if you yourself were in a situation someone was getting more intimate than you felt with them…it’s that kind of feeling.

    i think over time it has subsided though so I don’t think they believe it anymore. If he’s gamma them him exploding makes more sense mb due to valued Se and “respect” esp concerning family and loyalty etc. may tie into it, they can be a bit more harsh or punitive sounding if those things feel violated to them.

    your dad I think is hurt right now that you don’t want to be as close to him as he would like to be to you?
    I guess the question then is - in the long run, do you want to be close to him? Of not then that may be a difficult conversation to have.
    Basically and especially as an introvert, you like your space, right? I think that PoLR Se and extroversion makes people less likely to be blunt and say it off the bat they they don’t want people sitting beside them, or that they want to partake in a way. If am making sense of this.

    Yeah, he definitely can be explosive at times, he’s definitely very into “family” and “respect” and “loyalty” as concepts and he has “disciplinary ideas” surrounding those concepts. I think he is hurt because I pushed him away, and he wanted to be closer to me. I don’t really know, and I don’t dislike him or anything but I think we all need space, maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Lol
    Let people vent their frustrations and settle down and then when things are calm again slip them a favorite dessert and a note saying “I love you I just don’t want to sit so close”
    He got ice-cream, but not from me. Cold sugary foods can be calming, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MissDucki View Post
    I do this too. My entire family could be eating in one room but I prefer to go take my food and eat in the other. Being around them and close doesn't feel good for me at times and I get anxious. They would verbally express that they didn't like me going in the other room. Funny thing is that when they do that more, I don't want to sit with them. We may see it as not personal but, as a parent, I think it can really hurt them. Like, why doesn't my kid not want to sit next to me? What did I do to deserve this? Am I a bad parent? What am I doing wrong?

    He seemed to have lashed out based on his own hurt feelings and reacted poorly. I think a lot of parents see their kid as an extension of themselves and forget how they are there own person and may view/react to things and them differently.

    My mom is a Te/Fi valuer and would get upset when I pushed her away. Especially when I was really upset and in emotional pain. When she would try to 'fix' it, say with a hug, she would get even more upset at me because I was resisting it. It was nothing personal, I just needed space and it was hurting me more but she couldn't see that. I think she was more upset with herself for not being able to help me then anything. It seems that people tend to react and project based on their own feelings rather then thinking about the situation. I still don't like to share and get too close but after a personal conversation, she was able to see my side more. It actually started with me talking about my cousin and then snowballed into how I dislike it when she invalidates me feelings or why I get upset. She took it surprisingly well.

    I would wait a little while for it too cool down. Maybe offer a peace offering like his favorite food or desert and have a conversation. It can show a sense of Fi with a peace offering and gamma types seem to like gifts in a sense. Te types like the facts, and as an SLE, you do have pretty good Te so playing on that may help. Using a lot of "I" statements and explain how you feel personally and not direct it back on him will help. I feel this, I feel that. When you do this, I feel this because....Making accusatory statements (when You do this, You make me feel..etc) tends to escalate these types of situations. Plus relationship experts always say to use I statements. Just be true to yourself and explain it the best you can to him and your view. If he reacts poorly then he is just not ready for the conversation then. It took my mom more time to be open too it too. Give it time for now and just be honest.
    I think that Fi relies a lot on making close bonds, and I think that I should probably “tell” them to appease his Te and Se and let him know what’s up, based on this. I think he just likes people to tell him straight, if that makes sense? So, like “I think that …. And we should …. What do you think?” when I am explaining things would work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Odds are good that your dad has a lot of expectations for you and he wants to help you. Most Dads feel this way toward their kids.

    It may be that he was hoping to share some advice with you, and you seemed to reject his presence out of hand. More than just wanting your space, it probably seemed to him that you were rejecting him and all he was trying to do for you.

    I know that I had some real problems with my son not meeting my expectations, because I was doing the stupid, ignorant Father thing and saying to him, "I worked and I slaved to succeed and to give you a good life, and I've found that there is only ONE way to succeed in this world, and that's the way I succeeded, and so you should exactly repeat doing what I did, only better."

    There is a lot wrong with this kind of thinking, but fathers have the greatest hopes for their sons and want to see them succeed and sometimes they (me) have a hard time seeing that the kid is a completely different person with a completely different path, and that the kid wants to tread that path on his own. It seems simple enough, but a lot of parents (especially ExxJ parents) want to see their kids succeed where they didn't, or sooner than they did. It took my son years of screwing off before I realized that I couldn't live his life for him, and after I stopped trying to fix his life for him, we got on much better terms.

    Personally, I think your dad would benefit from some third party (your mom?) telling him that you are doing fine just as you are, and that you need to live your life, not his. You can try telling him this yourself, but it will have more impact coming from someone else, because he might still be thinking of you as a little kid who needs to be guided, rather than as a person who can stand and do well on his own two feet.

    Best of luck to you with this. He probably won't change his opinion overnight. You'll have to keep reminding him. Lol.
    Yeah, my Dad means well and he does have a lot of expectations for me (more so than my Mam, who I am sure is Alpha SF at this point).

    My Dad wants us (me and my brother) to be “productive” people, and make something of ourselves. You can do it, yes, but it takes time to actually set things up. I don’t think like him, and he doesn’t think like me. Our generations are different, and we have different ways of doing things that still bring us to success.

    I wonder how my Mam would explain things to him though. They kinda argue a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    You know, I think this might be a Gamma NT thing as well because my ILI mother has had this exact conversation with me. Being a parent with Te + Ni in one's ego results in the ability to extrapolate how shitty the world can be for their kids, and this gives them anxiety - resulting in an approach that can seem limiting and controlling to the kid, but only intends to protect them from the perspective of the parent. It's unfortunately a lot to unpack for someone not in Gamma quadra. I haven't fully figured out how to handle my mom, although she is the most loving person I know - but I do believe it's important to realize Gamma NTs care very deeply, so much so that their desire to protect their loved ones can cloud their ability to see when it's perhaps doing more harm than good.
    Yes, my Dad is quite anxious. He is into protection, and he cares a lot. Even though he has a weird way of showing it to most people. He needs to take a step back and see things for how they are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    "this is what I get for trying to be close to DEAD"

    Sounds like he made it pretty clear that he was trying to get closer to 'you'. Maybe he doesn't know how to be closer to you without getting on you? I guess this situation has come up before in different contexts and I think that you have an idea of how you can gain perspective. Have you ever told him what you would like him to change without being in a heated situation ? Maybe at first you or him will be losing temper but with time it can smooth out
    I need to have a real talk with him, but it’s hard because he’s so busy and because it would be a bit one-sided in regards to him, but I’m sure that if it was properly discussed then it would be possible to have a talk with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Well he's your dad so he's always going to try to get close to you and get to know you probably. I have noticed sometimes though Fi valuers will get try to get super close and intimate with me and it has made me feel awkward despite having 4D Fi myself, I suppose because mine isn't 'valued.' Is he LIE? LIEs especially I've noticed can be really needy with wanting closeness- it's weird. They are often like cold hardened assholes in public but on a one on one situation they want like these warm Fi fuzzies. The juxtaposition of that is weird to me and trolls me. I haven't known how to respond to them and sometimes I've felt guilty because they seem so soft and nice with this, like a dog begging for Fi scraps or something. lol.

    Don't push him away completely- but I think you two need to find an activity you both like to do together where you can kind of bond together without it hurting your Fi polr.

    I remember I always sat by myself at lunch in middle school & high school. Ppl thought it was cuz I was bullied and didn't fit in but I think even if I was treated like royalty and had lots of friends- I'd probably prefer this. And one on one I'll probably push the person away if they get too Fi and needy.
    Yeah, he’s an LIE-Te (am pretty sure of this by now) and yeah, he is like that exactly. It’s weird for me, and I never really understood it. I think he craves it off my Mam, but since she’s ESE, I think he’s not getting enough of it from her.

    Yeah, I think watching TV might be it. Football (soccer) or a movie, something we can discuss without being “close close” if that makes sense?

    Yeah, same here. Being too needy is annoying.

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    @DEAD

    "I need to have a real talk with him, but it’s hard because he’s so busy and because it would be a bit one-sided in regards to him, but I’m sure that if it was properly discussed then it would be possible to have a talk with him."

    You can have a "proper" discussion and oftentimes words lead to more separation unless we get a better idea of where we come from

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    I think I know what kalinoche is talking about...

    me and my mom once were fighting for the longest time. Just bickering and arguing over everything. But then one day she saw me for the first time I think because I also saw her for the first time. There was no words. It was like there as a shift. A real spiritual shift. We saw each other's True Selves instead of attacking with the ego. Because we started to feel compassion for one another... what was lacking. This is just... a real shift. I'm probably making it sound more saccharine or sweet then it really is- because I'm naturally a 'sweet' person- but it was more than that.

    Not sure how you get there. I'm not religious but I think "God" or "Spirit" or "source" whatever gets you both there when you are ready and you can't make it happen with the right words or trying to be nice because that can feel too much like manipulation and as kali said, words often just lead to more separation.

    In spiritual realms this moment is also called 'The Holy Instant' when both people become connected to each other genuinely through a higher power. You can in theory for example have this intense bitter and hatred conflict with somebody- like so evil and grimdark- but then you both suddenly 'get over it' and cry and hug each other when you have the moment of Holy Instant. ((str8 girls are so stereotypically lenient with bad boys a lot of the time, because they see this potential for the Holy Instant within them.)) It's not likely or probable, but that's why it's a miraculous blessing & feels so "big" when it does really happen.

    I realize- this is probably a Fi thing, which might make it more personally difficult for you -because yeah it is very Fi I think and obviously it never works on a 'grand Fe scale' because if it did, we would actually have world peace but that would be too boring/simplistic ((the dramatic realm of red is what holds white & black together)) and so for "cosmic balance reasons" - it only works in a Fi way unfortunately.

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    @BandD if you want to turn it more Ni maybe try on the "as above so below,as within so without" thing?

    Then again as long as it serves us to hold in our mind a world that works in this or that way then that is what we are going to do (I think)

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    My dad is doing the moralistic and longing for inferior Fi thing again and is annoying me because I canít give him Fi. I fought back against him but he still doesnít back off or get it. I can only watch football with him now because his Fi is placid during that and his Te is there and ever present.

    I am ignoring him but itís hard. I am always confronting him about his shit when he comes near me and we still clash. I dunno what to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    My dad is doing the moralistic and longing for inferior Fi thing again and is annoying me because I can’t give him Fi. I fought back against him but he still doesn’t back off or get it. I can only watch football with him now because his Fi is placid during that and his Te is there and ever present.

    I am ignoring him but it’s hard. I am always confronting him about his shit when he comes near me and we still clash. I dunno what to do.
    He’s clearly dead set (haha—dead) on being close to you. Conversely, you are dead set on maintaining distance from him.

    He’s not willing to accept your desire for space, hence his continual anger toward you. And you’re not willing to bend your boundaries for him, hence your decision to try ignoring him.

    Unless one of you completely gives up on your expectation for the relationship (i.e. he gives up on being close to you or you give up on maintaining distance from him) ​OR you make a compromise that’s deemed adequate by both parties (e.g. you spend quality time together on the weekends but steer clear of each other on weekdays—or something), then your expectations will continue to stand in direct opposition. When expectations for a relationship clash, it’s clearly a recipe for dissatisfaction. At best, only one party’s expectations are gonna be met—and the party that’s left wanting (your father in this case) is gonna experience frustration with unmet expectations and potentially lash out.

    To solve the problem of him being frustrated (assuming that’s what you consider the problem here), either he needs to accept your desire for space or you need to compromise on your desire for space—making a concentrated effort to spend quality time with him and fulfill his expectations for closeness. However, since you aren’t in control of his mindset and what he’s willing to accept, the former solution isn’t something that you can implement. Of this pair, the latter is your only viable option.

    Alternatively, to solve the problem of you having to deal with his frustration (but not the actual issue of him being frustrated), you could move out of his house and avoid facing his wrath directly. Sadly, this wouldn’t address the root problem; it’d simply decrease your proximity and thereby make the problem less pressing.

    I’m guessing that none of those options (aside from him coming to an acceptance—which is out of your control) are gonna sound great to you. But unfortunately, that’s all I’ve got. If there’s an idyllic solution that would satisfy both of you, I’m not insightful enough to identify it 3: I may be an Fi lead, but that certainly doesn’t make me a relationship expert lol. Nontheless, thought I’d add my thoughts to the discussion. Feel free to take all of it with a grain of salt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    My dad is doing the moralistic and longing for inferior Fi thing again and is annoying me because I can’t give him Fi. I fought back against him but he still doesn’t back off or get it. I can only watch football with him now because his Fi is placid during that and his Te is there and ever present.

    I am ignoring him but it’s hard. I am always confronting him about his shit when he comes near me and we still clash. I dunno what to do.
    Could your dad be LSE? I think Si types like physical closeness more than Se. I don't think LIE usually do something like sit too close to you. They are victim, after all.

    The chance LIE marry to ESE is also low.
    Last edited by Tarnished; 01-26-2022 at 11:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreymagine View Post
    Heís clearly dead set (hahaódead) on being close to you. Conversely, you are dead set on maintaining distance from him.

    Heís not willing to accept your desire for space, hence his continual anger toward you. And youíre not willing to bend your boundaries for him, hence your decision to try ignoring him.

    Unless one of you completely gives up on your expectation for the relationship (i.e. he gives up on being close to you or you give up on maintaining distance from him) ​OR you make a compromise thatís deemed adequate by both parties (e.g. you spend quality time together on the weekends but steer clear of each other on weekdaysóor something), then your expectations will continue to stand in direct opposition. When expectations for a relationship clash, itís clearly a recipe for dissatisfaction. At best, only one partyís expectations are gonna be metóand the party thatís left wanting (your father in this case) is gonna experience frustration with unmet expectations and potentially lash out.

    To solve the problem of him being frustrated (assuming thatís what you consider the problem here), either he needs to accept your desire for space or you need to compromise on your desire for spaceómaking a concentrated effort to spend quality time with him and fulfill his expectations for closeness. However, since you arenít in control of his mindset and what heís willing to accept, the former solution isnít something that you can implement. Of this pair, the latter is your only viable option.

    Alternatively, to solve the problem of you having to deal with his frustration (but not the actual issue of him being frustrated), you could move out of his house and avoid facing his wrath directly. Sadly, this wouldnít address the root problem; itíd simply decrease your proximity and thereby make the problem less pressing.

    Iím guessing that none of those options (aside from him coming to an acceptanceówhich is out of your control) are gonna sound great to you. But unfortunately, thatís all Iíve got. If thereís an idyllic solution that would satisfy both of you, Iím not insightful enough to identify it 3: I may be an Fi lead, but that certainly doesnít make me a relationship expert lol. Nontheless, thought Iíd add my thoughts to the discussion. Feel free to take all of it with a grain of salt.
    DEAD's situation with his dad is similar to mine with my mom.
    I have better distance and Fi(I think) than he does tho, I don't get openly angry at her either.
    What I want to say is that I took the solution of making efforts to have quality time with my mom but it really took a toll on my health, in the long run it's not viable.
    I spend so many hours feeling guilty that I can't be good enough for her, all the while being disgusted by her mere existance and wishing she'd die.
    She wanted boys, had she been receptive, I'd have done a gender transition to make her happy as a teen, which is not something I want for myself. Gonna sound messed up, but thanks for her transphobia.
    The only advice I really have is working on your self-esteem, self-worth, on putting limits down.
    If a relationship isn't healthy, you can't will it to be healthy. And also, if you work on yourself then try to pick back up unhealthy relationships, you can fall back into it and lose what you worked for. I've done that enough times already.
    Taking space for myself away from my mom also made her become nicer to me, but believing she had changed only made me fall back into the vicious circle of what was.
    There's no easy solution, but you're not responsible for other's wellbeing nor giving them what they want at the expense of your own health.
    No contact is the best for me regarding my mom, but the guilt keeps me from being fully able to. I'm tired of being told about my responsability in the relationship, I felt like a parent to her since I was 6, it just reinforce this idea I own her care I don't even have in me.
    It's been a long run, and I'm still not out of it.

    Maybe certain people can make it with these sort of compromise, but not everyone. I guess compatibility plays a role here too. An unhealthy Te lead is more likely to find healthy ways in an Fi lead than 2D or 1D Fi.


    btw, I don't mean your post is bad, Dreymagine, it's pretty good actualy. Just wanted to share my own experience since it weaves through it.
    Giving advices is hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adage View Post
    DEAD's situation with his dad is similar to mine with my mom.
    Your circumstances may be similar to Dead's in one regard (e.g. the parent wants closeness whereas the child wants space), but your situations have key differences:
    • Unlike Dead's father, your mother is discontent with something over which you have no control (you having been born a girl).
    • Unlike Dead, you have experienced extreme emotional distress—guilt, transphobia, and hate (re: wanting her dead)—due to her disapproval of you.

    Your relationship with your mother involves a multi-layered problem. For ease of writing, I'll call the common issue between you and Dead "the first part of the problem," and I'll call the unique issue that I outlined above "the second part of the problem."

    Spending quality time with your mother might have solved the first part of the problem if it had existed in isolation. However, it was incapable of addressing the second part of the problem because—until your mother experiences a change of heart and comes to a place where she can fully love, accept, and appreciate you as her daughter—her continued, unjustified dissatisfaction with you is inevitable. And thus, you may continue to feel guilty about yourself and upset with her.

    With unaddressed negative emotions such as discontent, guilt, and anger plaguing your relationship, it makes sense that spending more "quality" time together didn't prove to be a sustainable and healthy compromise. So, I emphatically agree with you. Based on the information that you've provided and my understanding of it, this kind of compromise was not (and is not) a viable long-term solution in your situation. I'm not trying to claim it as a solution applicable to everyone with similar circumstances to Dead's.

    That being said, I still think this kind of compromise is potentially a viable long-term solution in Dead's situation. As I highlighted before, your circumstances differ from his in significant ways. I think those differences would affect the solution's level of effectiveness.

    btw, I don't mean your post is bad, Dreymagine, it's pretty good actualy. Just wanted to share my own experience since it weaves through it. Giving advice is hard.
    Don't worry, I didn't get the impression that you were insulting my post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts/story; it was an interesting read. By the way, if I made any incorrect inferences about the reality of your experiences (if I was incorrect, for example, to infer that you've hated your mother), then I apologize. I've written most sentences on this thread as if certain, but I simply respond on the basis of my tentative interpretation of the information that I've been given. I'm definitely not trying to assert my inferences/interpretations as truth—in regard to you or in regard to Dead—because ultimately I'm unfamiliar with you guys and your lives.

    Yeah, giving advice is hard. And to clarify, I'm not necessarily advising @DEAD to take this particular route (though, it is the one that I would choose if I were in his shoes). Rather, I just laid out the two solutions that occurred to me (one of which Dead can't implement; that's on his father), as well as a way to avoid the problem altogether. My objective in writing the original post was to share my thoughts and thereby offer another perspective, not to persuade Dead to choose a particular course of action.

    Also, I didn't mention it in my original post, but there's obviously the option to do nothing. Maybe Dead considers the current state of things to be preferable to spending more quality time with his father or moving out completely.
    Last edited by Dreymagine; 01-26-2022 at 11:03 PM.

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    I like my personal space, and a lot of it because I don't like people getting too close and intimate with me and because it's more comfortable that way.
    This is the underlying reason for the upset. There is a desire for more than this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    He should reasonably know this is an atypical situation (one that hasn't really arisen before). I don't think there's much more you can say other than say you like a bit of space/quiet space sometimes, that you were lost in thought etc., and that you did not mean to disrespect him.
    It's not atypical, though. Notice the whole "this is just how I am, accept it" message. It's not as though it was just a mood. It's a long-standing schism between values.




    Maybe a compromise would be best.

    The waters are still, but still waters run deep, and a leviathan sleeps within.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreymagine View Post
    Your circumstances may be similar to Dead's in one regard (e.g. the parent wants closeness whereas the child wants space), but your situations have key differences:
    • Unlike Dead's father, your mother is discontent with something over which you have no control (you having been born a girl).
    • Unlike Dead, you have experienced extreme emotional distress—guilt, transphobia, and hate (re: wanting her dead)—due to her disapproval of you.

    Your relationship with your mother involves a multi-layered problem. For ease of writing, I'll call the common issue between you and Dead "the first part of the problem," and I'll call the unique issue that I outlined above "the second part of the problem."

    Spending quality time with your mother might have solved the first part of the problem if it had existed in isolation. However, it was incapable of addressing the second part of the problem because—until your mother experiences a change of heart and comes to a place where she can fully love, accept, and appreciate you as her daughter—her continued, unjustified dissatisfaction with you is inevitable. And thus, you may continue to feel guilty about yourself and upset with her.

    With unaddressed negative emotions such as discontent, guilt, and anger plaguing your relationship, it makes sense that spending more "quality" time together didn't prove to be a sustainable and healthy compromise. So, I emphatically agree with you. Based on the information that you've provided and my understanding of it, this kind of compromise was not (and is not) a viable long-term solution in your situation. I'm not trying to claim it as a solution applicable to everyone with similar circumstances to Dead's.

    That being said, I still think this kind of compromise is potentially a viable long-term solution in Dead's situation. As I highlighted before, your circumstances differ from his in significant ways. I think those differences would affect the solution's level of effectiveness.



    Don't worry, I didn't get the impression that you were insulting my post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts/story; it was an interesting read. By the way, if I made any incorrect inferences about the reality of your experiences (if I was incorrect, for example, to infer that you've hated your mother), then I apologize. I've written most sentences on this thread as if certain, but I simply respond on the basis of my tentative interpretation of the information that I've been given. I'm definitely not trying to assert my inferences/interpretations as truth—in regard to you or in regard to Dead—because ultimately I'm unfamiliar with you guys and your lives.

    Yeah, giving advice is hard. And to clarify, I'm not necessarily advising @DEAD to take this particular route (though, it is the one that I would choose if I were in his shoes). Rather, I just laid out the two solutions that occurred to me (one of which Dead can't implement; that's on his father), as well as a way to avoid the problem altogether. My objective in writing the original post was to share my thoughts and thereby offer another perspective, not to persuade Dead to choose a particular course of action.

    Also, I didn't mention it in my original post, but there's obviously the option to do nothing. Maybe Dead considers the current state of things to be preferable to spending more quality time with his father or moving out completely.
    um that I'd have changed gender to accomodate her was an exemple of how far some people can go. I don't know if she's still upset about never having boys, talking to her is tough.
    My mom made so much progress since I was a kid but it's far from ideal still.
    Idk know if I could say I ever hated her, that kind of feeling is unclear to me, sounds like more investment than I can manage, but I know from how things are that my life would be smoother if she wasn't around. Hers would likely be worse if I left. Conclusion ain't the nicest.

    When I said the situation is similar, I meant mostly how his dad goes on those weird Fi-seeking moments, I can't explain what she does but what he said struck me as similar in so many ways I can't put words on. It's unbearable somedays with the distance I have, which I judged as greater than his. It's a never ending hellish circle, I can't do it. Just the other day, this week, my head got dizzy and I couldn't see clear. I can't even tell you what she was saying, can't recall context, I can't pinpoint anything that bothered me at all. It's the accumulation that's crushing me I guess.
    If he can't, he can't, that's what I wanted to underline.
    But whatever, he's got to find his own way out in the end.

    Sorry if this is rushed or sounds harsh, not my intention, I need a shower. I shouldn't be on here rn, aaaah.

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    @adage
    You guys need to research Dismissive-Avoidant attachment styles.

    It's really not "if he can't, he can't" it's more like...this is complex and assistance via therapy is probably needed. "Can't" is only an option if you intend to remain unhealthy and have relationship issues for the rest of your life.

    The waters are still, but still waters run deep, and a leviathan sleeps within.

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    @DEAD have you been able to talk about this since with your father? Is this an issue that comes up often? If yes to the last question, perhaps family therapy or counseling could help find a soltuion.
    L'‚me a ses raisons que la raison ne connaÓt point

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    Two questions:
    1. are you around him all day, just at more "distance", or is he usually away?
    2. can you put yourself in a better mood and just take it easy one day, you both relax and laugh about it and then it'll be over, or do you think you'll then have to spend time with him daily?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacik View Post
    @adage
    You guys need to research Dismissive-Avoidant attachment styles.

    It's really not "if he can't, he can't" it's more like...this is complex and assistance via therapy is probably needed. "Can't" is only an option if you intend to remain unhealthy and have relationship issues for the rest of your life.
    Let me rephrase, if a solution doesn't work, it doesn't work.
    Forcing yourself to put up with things because you technicaly can isn't going to solve things if you destroy yourself in the process. Learning to let go in such situation isn't dismissive or avoidant, and it takes more than one relationship to label people this.
    I have read about attachement styles, I found them all to be weird and stiff, counter intuitive. It hasn't been very helpful to me, probably because I expect someone who goes through trauma to be become dismissive or clingy for some time until they get better. I expect people to no always need the same distance, not always be at their best. So to me, picking one style is like being forced into a forever role without hope for fluidity. I think there's a j/p thing happening here, also SEE-ILI duality is bit like that, the ILI being dismissive and avoidant is sort of part of how it's supposed to happen because SEE supposedly get bored when people are too open too fast. "Supposedly" is an important word here, there's matters of percetions involved too.
    Denial or not my cup of tea? This almost sounds, erm, what's the word, it's something not nice, passive aggressive? Oh whatever, I don't mean it that way whatever it is.
    What I mean is that no one can fix things for others, not everything works for everyone.
    I can't fix my mom into being a happy loving person no matter the efforts I put in, it's her job to do that.
    It isn't my job to be a loving person towards her either when she just takes and takes while my bounderies aren't the best. If I don't take care of myself, who will?


    And now that I think of it, unrelated to you from here on Lady Lunacik, I think @DEAD self-types SLE.
    So what would an IEI do? An IEI would probably establish a certain distance by acting correctly, engaging in conversation somewhat, finding excuses to cut things short when they feel anger rise. Keeping the climate light and not growing too close.
    Or not, not sure how IEI would act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreymagine View Post
    He’s clearly dead set (haha—dead) on being close to you. Conversely, you are dead set on maintaining distance from him.

    He’s not willing to accept your desire for space, hence his continual anger toward you. And you’re not willing to bend your boundaries for him, hence your decision to try ignoring him.

    Unless one of you completely gives up on your expectation for the relationship (i.e. he gives up on being close to you or you give up on maintaining distance from him) ​OR you make a compromise that’s deemed adequate by both parties (e.g. you spend quality time together on the weekends but steer clear of each other on weekdays—or something), then your expectations will continue to stand in direct opposition. When expectations for a relationship clash, it’s clearly a recipe for dissatisfaction. At best, only one party’s expectations are gonna be met—and the party that’s left wanting (your father in this case) is gonna experience frustration with unmet expectations and potentially lash out.

    To solve the problem of him being frustrated (assuming that’s what you consider the problem here), either he needs to accept your desire for space or you need to compromise on your desire for space—making a concentrated effort to spend quality time with him and fulfill his expectations for closeness. However, since you aren’t in control of his mindset and what he’s willing to accept, the former solution isn’t something that you can implement. Of this pair, the latter is your only viable option.

    Alternatively, to solve the problem of you having to deal with his frustration (but not the actual issue of him being frustrated), you could move out of his house and avoid facing his wrath directly. Sadly, this wouldn’t address the root problem; it’d simply decrease your proximity and thereby make the problem less pressing.

    I’m guessing that none of those options (aside from him coming to an acceptance—which is out of your control) are gonna sound great to you. But unfortunately, that’s all I’ve got. If there’s an idyllic solution that would satisfy both of you, I’m not insightful enough to identify it 3: I may be an Fi lead, but that certainly doesn’t make me a relationship expert lol. Nontheless, thought I’d add my thoughts to the discussion. Feel free to take all of it with a grain of salt.
    The latter solution sounds awful. Especially considering that he basically rants, and drives people away. I see it first hand a lot. Logically speaking, if he could back his ass off a bit, that would very helpful. I am getting kinda tired of confronting him and fighting about it. It's too expensive to actually rent a house for one person here, and too much effort to want to maintain it. Being at home for the moment is a lot cheaper. I need better income first.

    I want full control over the situation and have been trying to have it for as long as I can remember. Moving out is smart, but where to? I will wait until I get my license and have full freedom and control. Finding an 'idyllic' solution is near impossible. He is too stubborn, and I am too combative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    Could your dad be LSE? I think Si types like physical closeness more than Se. I don't think LIE usually do something like sit too close to you. They are victim, after all.

    The chance LIE marry to ESE is also low.
    I know for a fact that he's definitely LxE-Te, and I am thinking LIE > LSE because:

    + Him and my Mom appear to match the descriptions and workings of a 'superego' relationship well, over a business one. They have two totally different ways of processing information (i.e. my Dad thinks long term, and 'economically' and my Mom's shorter-term, people-orientated and not very farsighted or economical). They appear to regularly argue over their given methods, and they barely see face-to-face.

    + In terms of information processing, they appear to tire each other out more so than actually agree and solve problems together.

    + My Mom cares a lot more about selling and making an experience than my Dad does. Her whole business is centered around that, and making the customer comfortable (photography business), whereas my Dad has a vision, and he wants to carry out that vision in the most economical way possible. He comes up with a plan, gets the resources together, doesn't care about comfort, and isn't physically attuned to things the same way that an LSE would be, IMO. (e.g. he is building a shed around our yard, and he is taking time to do it and is measuring everything accurately, he has it all visualized out).

    The shed is also one part of the whole (he is doing up the whole yard) over the past few years, and has set a timeframe for it to be done. He seems to look at things as a whole, and a part of the whole and doesn't care so much about comfort and aesthetics. I am absolutely not saying that LSE can't do these things, but I think that he goes about it in more of a Ni > Si way.

    + He also is very into 'current events' and how they will pan out in the future. He is a good planner, organizer, and future-orientated person. He doesn't care about how things 'are' or 'could be', he's focused on the big(ger) picture in the sense of how things 'are now' and how they 'will be'. He doesn't care about how things will affect his own state of being, and he isn't really into that line of thinking. He has always had this vision of the 'end times' and the 'world ending' and how to prepare for it (yeah, he's kinda survivalist in that sense).

    + In terms of closeness, I think that my Dad is craving the Fi, but he can't get it from anyone in our family in an adequate amount. He's generally not a touchy-feely person, nor does he tend to want anyone to go super close to him but I think that maybe he just wanted some company that night?

    It freaks me out when people want to be intimate with me in any way. It's too sudden. It makes me want to push them as far away from them as I can, so I just end up fighting them and hope they piss off. Also, when someone crosses my boundaries after I warn them, then I will attack them.


    [QUOTE=adage;1499169]DEAD's situation with his dad is similar to mine with my mom.
    I have better distance and Fi(I think) than he does tho, I don't get openly angry at her either.
    What I want to say is that I took the solution of making efforts to have quality time with my mom but it really took a toll on my health, in the long run it's not viable.
    I spend so many hours feeling guilty that I can't be good enough for her, all the while being disgusted by her mere existance and wishing she'd die.
    She wanted boys, had she been receptive, I'd have done a gender transition to make her happy as a teen, which is not something I want for myself. Gonna sound messed up, but thanks for her transphobia.
    The only advice I really have is working on your self-esteem, self-worth, on putting limits down.
    If a relationship isn't healthy, you can't will it to be healthy. And also, if you work on yourself then try to pick back up unhealthy relationships, you can fall back into it and lose what you worked for. I've done that enough times already.
    Taking space for myself away from my mom also made her become nicer to me, but believing she had changed only made me fall back into the vicious circle of what was.
    There's no easy solution, but you're not responsible for other's wellbeing nor giving them what they want at the expense of your own health.
    No contact is the best for me regarding my mom, but the guilt keeps me from being fully able to. I'm tired of being told about my responsability in the relationship, I felt like a parent to her since I was 6, it just reinforce this idea I own her care I don't even have in me.
    It's been a long run, and I'm still not out of it.

    Maybe certain people can make it with these sort of compromise, but not everyone. I guess compatibility plays a role here too. An unhealthy Te lead is more likely to find healthy ways in an Fi lead than 2D or 1D Fi.
    Yeah, I get angry a lot at my Dad. I don't "feel guilty" about not spending much time with him, to be honest. He wants to bond over music and football (interests that we both share), and he wants me to watch some games with him (which I suppose in the context of discussing them, is fine) and the music part (he wants me to help home with his music, i.e. remix/edit some of his songs, which I don't mind doing as a solitary activity. I find music production and engineering fun to do).

    Whenever he forces me to spend time with him, he really annoys me. I do have limits and when he tries to cross them, it annoys me and we just fight about it (I think I mentioned that before). I don't have high expectations anyway, or really any at all of other people. I don't change for other people, and I don't have low self-worth or self-esteem afaik. I learned from a young age not to rely on people, or get your hopes up. Expectations vs reality. People are disappointing.

    And yeah, I am not responsible for my Dad's well-being or our relation continuing in that way. I don't want to back down and compromise and give him all the power and satisfaction of getting what he wants in this situation. He can't just demand things, and expect them to happen you know? We have grown apart, and it seems like he still wants to hold on to a part of what was, and still have a bond with me in the same way, but I've grown up a lot.

    I do find it hard to actually judge relations sometimes and know what to do to get close to that person. Being someone with 1D Fi, everything in the area of closeness and relations is a blur to me. It's not something that I tend to excel at, and it's definitely something that I don't think about much, if at all.

    I am trying to minimise my time around him, as much as I can, until I can find a way out of this and sieze the opportunity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacik View Post
    This is the underlying reason for the upset. There is a desire for more than this.


    It's not atypical, though. Notice the whole "this is just how I am, accept it" message. It's not as though it was just a mood. It's a long-standing schism between values.


    Maybe a compromise would be best.
    I see where you're coming from, but IMO it's hard for me to compromise. I don't like people shoving their morals and their values in my face, and forcing me to spend time with them when I don't want to, or I physically can't. It makes me angry and lash out. Compromising with the man is hard. I just can't please him, so I gave up on that. Trying to talk to him is hard as well at times without over-asserting yourself to make a point. He is a difficult a person at times.

    I don't even know to compromise with that. It's hard to fulfill his desires, especially when he basically tries to override everything. It's hard for me to understand him at the best of times and what he wants. And for him to want intimacy and for us to bond is very difficult for me to navigate and swallow. We are two very different thinkers and people. We rarely see exactly eye to eye or agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    @DEAD have you been able to talk about this since with your father? Is this an issue that comes up often? If yes to the last question, perhaps family therapy or counseling could help find a soltuion.
    It's hard to talk about these things with him. I told him once before, and I don't want to keep having to re-assert those boundaries every time he comes near me. He wants intimacy, but he doesn't understand that this isn't a good way to go about getting it (or so it seems, from our experience).

    I don't think that he would go to family therapy. He's stubborn like that, and probably thinks that what he's doing is causing no issues. He is also 1D Fi. It's a constant headbutting with him, in a way. He thinks that what he says is final. It's not always correct, and when I point out the flaws in what he's saying, and how he is going about things, chaos strikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Two questions:
    1. are you around him all day, just at more "distance", or is he usually away?
    2. can you put yourself in a better mood and just take it easy one day, you both relax and laugh about it and then it'll be over, or do you think you'll then have to spend time with him daily?
    1. I try not to be around him all day. At the moment, he's working on a project in our yard and has been busy doing that. I am around him at dinner times, and when he wants to 'talk'.
    2. No. He is hard to be around. I just can't with him.

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    Maybe you already do, or someone already suggested, I haven't read everything.

    Think maybe blowing some steam off once in a while until you get an opportunity for change could be enough?
    Idk if talking is enough for you, and you may not always have an opportunity unless you pick up talking to god or a plant, maybe take up something creatively expressive, drawing or writing are easily accessible. The point is not to be good at it, just to throw things down on paper, maybe even rip it apart or burn it.
    Throwing out the trash is rarely pretty, some peeps dig that kind of art tho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adage View Post
    Maybe you already do, or someone already suggested, I haven't read everything.

    Think maybe blowing some steam off once in a while until you get an opportunity for change could be enough?
    Idk if talking is enough for you, and you may not always have an opportunity unless you pick up talking to god or a plant, maybe take up something creatively expressive, drawing or writing are easily accessible. The point is not to be good at it, just to throw things down on paper, maybe even rip it apart or burn it.
    Throwing out the trash is rarely pretty, some peeps dig that kind of art tho.
    When I was younger, I used to be a lot more aggressive and I used to let off steam more. I broke my laptop, wardrobe door and my phone in the space of a few months once. I still do let off steam but not to that extent.

    Iím good at writing things though. Apparently. I can make noise with music too. Thatís about it. Iím not overly creative, I donít think. I have bouts here and there but Iím not always switched on.

    Yeah destroying things is relieving as is playing loud music as well. Especially old school reggaeton. Not this pansy shit they have now. Hardcore songs. Aggressive ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    The latter solution sounds awful. Especially considering that he basically rants, and drives people away. I see it first hand a lot. Logically speaking, if he could back his ass off a bit, that would very helpful. I am getting kinda tired of confronting him and fighting about it. It's too expensive to actually rent a house for one person here, and too much effort to want to maintain it. Being at home for the moment is a lot cheaper. I need better income first.

    I want full control over the situation and have been trying to have it for as long as I can remember. Moving out is smart, but where to? I will wait until I get my license and have full freedom and control. Finding an 'idyllic' solution is near impossible. He is too stubborn, and I am too combative.
    If you're not willing to compromise or able to move out atm, then I guess the only practical thing you can do is focus on getting a better source of income so that moving out is possible in the future. Sounds like you're working on getting a license of some sort, so I'd guess that you're already on the right track in that regard.

    Alternatively, if you want an actionable solution now, you could consider family therapy, as someone else suggested. I see you've mentioned that you "don't think he would go to family," though. That's really unfortunate. But if he hasn't outright said that he'd be unwilling to go to therapy, maybe it's worth asking about—even if you're 99.9% certain that he'll refuse.

    My speculation: Worst case scenario of asking, he's irrationally upset by the suggestion and you get into an argument (which is the norm for you guys anyways from the sounds of it). Best case scenario of asking, he surprises you and agrees to go with you to therapy, which could help you both tremendously. Conversely, worst case scenario of not asking is that you miss out on an opportunity to solve this issue. Best case scenario of not asking, you manage to avoid one argument.

    Weighing the pros and cons / considering the risk versus reward, it could be worthwhile to propose family therapy as an option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    When I was younger, I used to be a lot more aggressive and I used to let off steam more. I broke my laptop, wardrobe door and my phone in the space of a few months once. I still do let off steam but not to that extent.

    I’m good at writing things though. Apparently. I can make noise with music too. That’s about it. I’m not overly creative, I don’t think. I have bouts here and there but I’m not always switched on.

    Yeah destroying things is relieving as is playing loud music as well. Especially old school reggaeton. Not this pansy shit they have now. Hardcore songs. Aggressive ones.
    Oh, I don't mean being creative per say, letting steam out on paper is highly different from being creative imo. It still ends up being creative tho, but it comes after.

    Nice to know can write, that's cool.

    I wonder about the loud music. I'm thinking maybe seeking nuances, things that aren't necessarily impactful but still has angry undertone. You may have 1D/2D F functions, still I wonder if you could find a mellower outlet to soothe aggression before it explodes by exploring expression of feelings.
    Not saying big impact is bad, I like nuances, from hunting ethereal stuff to thrash metal.
    I don't have suggestions, I haven't listened to music for years, but I think there might be decent stuff in music threads on here, I remember finding interesting stuff and I think we may not like the same things anyway.

    Idk if this can help, but sometimes, I find ear plugs to help dealing with people who talk too much, it increases distance by cutting sound a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreymagine View Post
    If you're not willing to compromise or able to move out atm, then I guess the only practical thing you can do is focus on getting a better source of income so that moving out is possible in the future. Sounds like you're working on getting a license of some sort, so I'd guess that you're already on the right track in that regard.

    Alternatively, if you want an actionable solution now, you could consider family therapy, as someone else suggested. I see you've mentioned that you "don't think he would go to family," though. That's really unfortunate. But if he hasn't outright said that he'd be unwilling to go to therapy, maybe it's worth asking about—even if you're 99.9% certain that he'll refuse.

    My speculation: Worst case scenario of asking, he's irrationally upset by the suggestion and you get into an argument (which is the norm for you guys anyways from the sounds of it). Best case scenario of asking, he surprises you and agrees to go with you to therapy, which could help you both tremendously. Conversely, worst case scenario of not asking is that you miss out on an opportunity to solve this issue. Best case scenario of not asking, you manage to avoid one argument.

    Weighing the pros and cons / considering the risk versus reward, it could be worthwhile to propose family therapy as an option.
    Yeah, I agree. I am, yes. It's gonna take a while and some work, but I can get there, I think.

    Yeah, I think that he also wouldn't be willing to pay for it either, if he thinks that the outcome isn't gonna be worth it. He's kinda stingy with investments unless he knows that they're gonna work out. I think that he isn't down for talking about his problems in that way either, and is probably gonna deny that there are any issues there. He can be kinda delusional in that regard.

    Yeah, the pros and the cons are hard to judge, given that he himself can be a bit unpredictable (he isn't 100% mentally healthy from what I have observed and analyzed of him). You make a good point about us both missing out. I googled it, and nearby, there is a place that offers digital sessions (online, closed face-to-face due to covid) so I wonder if that might entice him more if we can set something up online, though I doubt he will take me up on the offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by adage View Post
    Oh, I don't mean being creative per say, letting steam out on paper is highly different from being creative imo. It still ends up being creative tho, but it comes after.

    Nice to know can write, that's cool.

    I wonder about the loud music. I'm thinking maybe seeking nuances, things that aren't necessarily impactful but still has angry undertone. You may have 1D/2D F functions, still I wonder if you could find a mellower outlet to soothe aggression before it explodes by exploring expression of feelings.
    Not saying big impact is bad, I like nuances, from hunting ethereal stuff to thrash metal.
    I don't have suggestions, I haven't listened to music for years, but I think there might be decent stuff in music threads on here, I remember finding interesting stuff and I think we may not like the same things anyway.

    Idk if this can help, but sometimes, I find ear plugs to help dealing with people who talk too much, it increases distance by cutting sound a bit.
    Some music is boring, actually, I find a lot of music boring. Especially quiet folk music. Why listen to music, unless it has a kick or an impact? Or something interesting/technical going on. Even progressive rock got boring, like Genesis in the Phil Collins era was inferior Fi moping and Dad rock. My Dad is a big fan, but Genesis in the Phil Collins gets boring fast. Peter Gabriel was somewhat interesting and more creative. I think that Genesis turned too much towards Delta when Collins took over (I type him as LSE). I don't want to hear about morality and boring stuff in my music.

    I kinda like Manfred Mann, but I think that's because of their composition, and because they have some sort of Ni in their music. The instrumentation works well within the narrative, and the actual synth instrumental progressions are interesting. The songs are structured well (don't get me wrong, most songs back in the day were) but Manfred Mann is a lot more experimental and atmospheric.

    As much as I like angry music, I occasionally enjoy some well-constructed songs and narratives. Music that tells a story can be interesting at times. Experiencing the technicalities, nuances, instruments, and lyrical content unfold and analyzing them is fun. I used to analyze and dissect my fave musicians' songs, and it was interesting how they made the song.

    In terms of music, I think that when I have wanted to have an actual musical experience, I focus more on the Ni and the Fe (at times) than the Se and the Ti. If I want to blow off some steam, then it's usually the Se and the Fe. Having said that, I don't explore feelings much, because honestly, it is a waste of time for me. It's either all or nothing for me. I either explode, or I barely emote at all. I don't think that's overly healthy but I think that having aggression as a drive to get things done and a motivator before you chill can definitely be very helpful.

    I think that if I'm not aggressive about something (or motivated) then I'm kinda apathetic or 'meh' mentally. I am usually pretty steady, but when something is annoying me, or I can't actually do things then my anger gets really pent up. It can be kinda scary for some people, and it's like a bomb. It comes from nowhere. It just happens in that particular moment, but I am learning how to control that. I am trying to rationalize things, in terms of if I should explode or not.

    Yeah, noise-canceling headphones are amazing as well. I like the ones that don't play music loud. Closed-back ones, though the open-back ones are a lot wider, and they offer a more concert-like experience. Airpods (not open or closed back) provide a great noise-canceling experience if you're walking outside. Grado (open back) provides a good experience if you want a wide, concert-like sound. Beyerdynamic is a good all-rounder (for mixing and listening to music). And Sony (the ones from the 90s) are good for mixing music. (Closed back) I have a pair of gaming ones for Discord audio as well and they're not bad for listening to music either. (SteelSeries Arctics 3). Yeah, I have a whole collection of them and use different pairs under different circumstances for a different sound/reason.

    As you can tell, I am very interested in music, and am a sort of audiophile, judging by my many pairs of headphones. I am also not a bad writer as well, but I don't deal with all that purple prose crap. I usually write it as it is. At the moment, I am writing about an LSI lawyer called Marvin, who broke up with his LIE partner, Adrian after he started a Fight Club and got disbarred. Now, he's trying to move on and experience life for the first time in his adult life without Adrian there.

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    I kinda like pansy music even when I'm really pissed off - or maybe it's more accurate to say I don't tend to like aggressive music even when I'm peeved. LMAO. The life of having 1D Se I guess.

    I don't know what to say you complain about your dad a lot- might be a case of 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' cliche. Also getting along with other people always requires compromise and for the other person to spank their own narcissism in a sense - which you might not want to hear. So that in turn might actually be listening somewhat to his morality concerns but take them with the proper grain of salt. I guess it's like with me being gay. ((did you guys really think I was going to make a post without mentioning my homosexuality? HAHHAHA)) I can accept the morality concerns that it is probably more lustful and a bit more evil than heterosexually making kids for God but always comparing it to child molestation or sickness to me is a line I think is unfair/wrong etc and I don't have to change who I am all the time just to make somebody else more comfortable.

    I think with str8 breeder parents.. they have this moral Te/Fi concern for their kids or something because they created us, and from their perspective- like put yourself in your dad's shoes a little bit, and the tension between you two might ease up naturally. Empathy and compassion is healing and good for people it's not pansy or soft. And if you do that and he himself won't do the same for you well- that's fine. You were the bigger person and it was your dad who lost out etc. But I think he still cares for you in his awkward Fi LIE dad way.

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