ESI-Fi vs. ESI-Se

[Active reader]

My background: I believe I'm LIE-1Ni since 1) I'm more people oriented than LIEs in all the descriptions and 2) the extended test says I'm ILI-1Te which I am not, for sure!

Doubts: Someone claimed on the forum that LIE-Ni would spend more time on input than output, which I don't think applies to me, but then I don't actually count it, so who knows?

ESI's background: I know at least 3 ESIs. I'm close with two of them.
1) One of them is a close friend of mine who I get along with.
- She seems to be an idealist when it comes to her distant future for example she'd like to live in exotic places, a different one every week.
- She's very forgiving. I was shocked when she told me she'd distanced herself from a certain person or when she said she was disappointed with one.
- She doesn't seem to listen to my advice in general. She'll always hear me out, but that's all.
- She understands people's motives very well and always corrects me in this matter.

2) The other one is my partner.
- He seemed to be blind when it came to his false friends, but cut them off more easily than I think my ESI friend would.
- He's less creative when it comes to people's motives.
- He's harsher when talking about people's traits.
- He seems to be more unsure of his future than my ESI friend, but he's more receptive to my ideas.
- He seems to appreciate every piece of advice I have for him, even when it's criticism (of course, as long as I let him save face)

3) I get along with my ESI friend VERY well, and with my ESI boyfriend EXCEPTIONALLY well.

Question: How do I determine their subtypes?


P.S. I've read as much as possible about it on the forum, but I didn't find anything helpful

[Great]

2nd one is ESI-Fi.

I suggest checking the wiki for descriptions of each subtype.

[Active reader]

2nd one is ESI-Fi.

I suggest checking the wiki for descriptions of each subtype.

Oh yeah! I did that. I forgot to mention that I actually typed the other one as ESI-Fi based on the descriptions. But why I doubt it is that we understand each other extremely well. Shouldn't it be different if I'm LIE-Ni? Or isn't it of such importance? Or maybe I should think over my subtype.

[BaruchJorgell]

You just have to compare their function use. It's as simple as that. The one with frequent Fi and Ti use will be your classical Fi subtype. Some ESI with a surprisingly frequent Se and Ne use will be a textbook Se subtype. Most ESI will escape both categories.



The symmetry makes you believe the Se-ESI and Ni-LIE subtype will go together, but it is not true. You need a Fi subtype.


Reading more descriptions won't help with your understanding, in general. I suggest you have a look at the theoretical articles.

[Great]

Oh yeah! I did that. I forgot to mention that I actually typed the other one as ESI-Fi based on the descriptions. But why I doubt it is that we understand each other extremely well. Shouldn't it be different if I'm LIE-Ni? Or isn't it of such importance? Or maybe I should think over my subtype.

How well do you work together?

[Active reader]

How well do you work together?

1) We agree as to every aspect of our life together. When it happens that we disagree it's usually because we talk about the same thing in two different ways, but we pretty quickly realize it.
2) I've never met anyone with whom I'd get along better.

You need a Fi subtype.

Why do you think so, @BaruchJorgell?

I suggest you have a look at the theoretical articles.

I will!

[BaruchJorgell]

Why do you think so, @BaruchJorgell?

Both subtypes will suit you, because both are ESI after all. The cultural and material components are probably more important at this point.
But a LIE-Ni and ESI-Se combination is less balanced than a LIE-Ni and ESI-Fi one. The couple will have issues with Ti and Fe. On the bright side it is a more energy-efficient pair.

[Zero]

But a LIE-Ni and ESI-Se combination is less balanced than a LIE-Ni and ESI-Fi one. The couple will have issues with Ti and Fe. On the bright side it is a more energy-efficient pair.

I also thought the opposite would be true. I'd appreciate some reading material on the background for this if you have it?

[Zero]

In my experience if there are bright/neon sports clothing in the ESI's wardrobe they're probably the Se subtype

[BaruchJorgell]

My comments are related to Model G. The LIE has a very problematic Ti (weak wouldn't the be the correct word), which is compensated by the ESI. If the ESI is a Se subtype, (s)he has a reduced Fi use compared to a non-Se ESI. A lower Fi use leads to a lower Ti use.
Likewise, the LIE cannot help the ESI with his/her Fe.

You can learn about Model G with Gulenko's book and website ("Socioniks"). Many key elements of the model are hidden in the Q&A section if I remember correctly.



On the other hand, if you don't want to look at Model G :

https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...types-by-Meged

[Rebelondeck]

ESI-Fi subtypes seem much more lost in their thoughts, hesitant and disconnected. Se-subtypes make more rationalization errors tending to jump to conclusions and to sometimes make seemingly irrational decisions, but they do seem more engaged with people even though this may be an illusion. Subtype indicates processing imbalance and potential problems with relationships; others often find Fi-subtypes to be too distant and cold at times while Se-subtypes seem overly fault-finding of others. Non-subtype ESIs don't as often come across as having holier-than-thou or elitist attitudes - but these attitudes are most likely appearances only and not necessarily their true natures because they all use the same thinking processes.

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

My background: I believe I'm LIE-1Ni since 1) I'm more people oriented than LIEs in all the descriptions and 2) the extended test says I'm ILI-1Te which I am not, for sure!

Doubts: Someone claimed on the forum that LIE-Ni would spend more time on input than output, which I don't think applies to me, but then I don't actually count it, so who knows?

ESI's background: I know at least 3 ESIs. I'm close with two of them.
1) One of them is a close friend of mine who I get along with.
- She seems to be an idealist when it comes to her distant future for example she'd like to live in exotic places, a different one every week.
- She's very forgiving. I was shocked when she told me she'd distanced herself from a certain person or when she said she was disappointed with one.
- She doesn't seem to listen to my advice in general. She'll always hear me out, but that's all.
- She understands people's motives very well and always corrects me in this matter.

2) The other one is my partner.
- He seemed to be blind when it came to his false friends, but cut them off more easily than I think my ESI friend would.
- He's less creative when it comes to people's motives.
- He's harsher when talking about people's traits.
- He seems to be more unsure of his future than my ESI friend, but he's more receptive to my ideas.
- He seems to appreciate every piece of advice I have for him, even when it's criticism (of course, as long as I let him save face)

3) I get along with my ESI friend VERY well, and with my ESI boyfriend EXCEPTIONALLY well.

Question: How do I determine their subtypes?


P.S. I've read as much as possible about it on the forum, but I didn't find anything helpful

@Active reader, I'm LIE-Te, so my subjective impressions of the two ESI sub-types might be different from yours, but here's what I think.

I see the ESI-Se as the "sports" model, and the ESI-Fi as the "nesting" model. I tell them apart by the fact that the ESI-Se wants to appear strong and determined, while the ESI-Fi sees the world primarily in moral terms and wants to help people.
Let me be clear; they both see the world in moral terms and they both want to be seen as being strong and attractive, but the emphasis, when set next to each other, is different.

I happen to have two ESI females of different subtypes in my life right now. (ESI-Se is A.S., ESI-Fi is B.D.) Here is my impression of each.

The ESI-Fi is incredibly hard to get to know. She lives in her own world and is the kind of woman who has two friends, and one of them is a stuffed animal. She says she needs help with Te financial things, and she has a really hard time with choosing compatible mates. (Well, they both do, to be honest.) However, with me, she's easy to get along with and she closes the distance between us easily. When I see her, I can see in her eyes that she wants to be hugged and kissed, and when I do this, she gets the biggest smile on her face, and then she launches off into a story about how some of the people she knows are doing immoral things.

When she was young, she wanted to be a runway model, and she probably could have done it if she'd had the right connections. She is an RN, but she has the vibes of an airline stewardess, and she has a clothes collection that doesn't seem to repeat. But her Se has a "try hard" flavor to it. In other words, she has to work at Se, while her Fi is on all the time.

I don't have much inclination to work with her, nor her with me. Instead, we spend our time going out to eat, or walking through parks. She and I tend to relax each other, which is very similar to the Mirage relationship I had with an LSI. Once, when I visited her just before she had to go to work, she said "I have 45 minutes before I have to leave for work. What do you want to do?" I opted for coffee and conversation, but I'm pretty sure she would have been up for any form of relaxation.


The ESI-Se gives me an entirely different impression. She's active and smart and quick and she wants to lead people through the wilderness and be a social worker. She tells me about her life, but her stories are about doing things, not moral tales. She's always on the phone to someone, arranging times and dates to meet. I don't feel relaxed around her at all. Instead, I feel like I want to do an incredible amount of work, and I can accomplish this because she's there, available to help me. I don't have much sexual attraction to her, at least, not as much as I have for the ESI-Fi. Instead of kissing when we meet, we shake hands. She likes this, and so do I. It represents a contract for us to work together that day. We both have a lot of active fun when we're together, and we laugh a lot. We both are trying to figure out how we can make this relationship last in the future, and both of our plans involve working together.
Her Se is easy, effortless and natural. She, too, has a clothes collection that never seems to repeat and she always looks great, but in her case, she wants to be a social worker, so her Fi has a "try hard" quality to it. In other words, she has to work at it.

If I were trying to decide between one or the other to have kids with, it would be a tossup. The ESI-Fi raised a son to be an incredibly admirable adult and so would be a terrific mother, but she seems to want to live in her son's life because she doesn't have much of a life herself, other than working.
The ESI-Se is incredibly mentally healthy and has a strategy for raising kids that we've talked about, and it's impressive to me. I think the ESI-Fi would get pregnant sooner than the ESI-Se, but I think my life with the ESI-Se might be more constructive and accomplished.

In one sense, the ESI-Se resembles an SEE Activity partner because we're looking for ways to work together, but sex is a low priority. The ESI-Fi resembles an EII Semi-Dual because we are sympathetic to each other, and closing the physical gap would be easier. I have an EII secretary and I can take her anywhere, but we have a hard time with intimately working together on projects. We can't motivate each other, while the ESI-Se has been able to motivate me to do paperwork, for God's sake.

So, the bottom line is that, for an LIE-Te such as myself, the ESI-Se is best for work and getting things done, and the ESI-Fi is best for a relaxing home life and nesting. Your mileage may vary.

Even though I'm coming at this sub-type thing from a direction opposite to yours, I hope this helps you abstract my experience to your situation.

*EDIT*
I should add that the ESI-Se is a CP e6w7 to my e8w7, which is a very compatible combination, while the ESI-Fi seems more e4 or e6 to me, and she said that she used to relate to my description of e9s, but now is more "in the world" than she used to be. This might affect my subjective impressions of the two sub-types, beyond the simple -Se and -Fi.

[Adam Strange]

@Adam Strange do you have experience with ESI-0? Also do you think subtypes can over lifetime

If subtypes change over a lifetime, I think the changes are very slow and are mostly related to situations. In other words, your situation can force you to use one function over another, and that can cause a person to appear to be a different subtype. But if a person were placed in a more natural environment for them, then their subtype would snap back and they'd be happier for not having to adapt.

I know that most people feel that subtypes reflect a Gaussian distribution. In other words, they seem to think that about 86% of ESIs are ESI-0 (no sub-type) and 7% are ESI-Se and 7% are ESI-Fi, but I personally feel that the gradations between types, even across a single Quadra, appear as a continuous curve that spans the Quadra. Like what you see in this chart I made when I was first trying to understand Socionics: https://i.imgur.com/zbSaXkw.jpg. Notice the sine waves that the functions take across the quadras. Within a single Quadra, the functions wrap around like ribbons on a pole. Why would the population of subtypes dip when going from ESI-Fi to ESI-0 to ESI-Se to SEE-Fi to SEE-0 to SEE-Se?. I see no reason to assume anything other than a smooth population distribution.

You don't get people's heights crowding around the numbers 4', 5', 6', and 7', just because inches are a sub-unit of feet, for Christ's sake.

But even if the majority of people in one sociotype are no-subtypes, I'd still try to classify them as being predominantly one subtype or the other. It helps me get a handle on them more easily.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

First one is ESI-Se & second one is ESI-Fi. Se would be more forgiving but more defensive about receiving advice. Fi would be less forgiving but more open to hearing advice.

The harshness thing also seems gender related not type related. Men are usually harsher.

[Rebelondeck]

The seeming need to divide into subtypes is an indication that current systems (models I wouldn't call them) are insufficient; the extreme would be a subtype for every person on the planet. We can observe all kinds and combinations of attractive forces and phenomena but a proper definition of gravity is the better solution - rather than adding exception bins and observing how they change over time.

a.k.a. I/O

[aryuki]

ESI-Fis have the personality of tasteless mush and are like a worse version of EIIs. Cute moral supporter but less funny. ESI-Ses are badass and sometimes vigilantes, they are always hyper-ambitious which some people like.

Lead subtypes= much better at PoLR but lack an edge
Balanced subtype= supposedly the most advantageous of "both worlds", well-rounded and can have a wider range of self expression but also kind of shittier at both
Creative subtypes= very distinct/memorable kind of individual but might be too edgy and a terrible PoLR which can cripple self-development

[Armitage]

Might it not be an overgeneralization to assume that basing one's job on a function means that this function is the lesser experienced one, and that making one's job revolve around it is to develop it further? I can imagine people also making one's living from their subtype function, for instance.
I do understand, however, that with the ESIs you know the collective of their behaviours made you decide one subtype or the other, @Adam Strange.
Also, I always believed ESI-Ses to be more stubborn than ESI-Fis, since Se translates to force of will?

[Adam Strange]

Might it not be an overgeneralization to assume that basing one's job on a function means that this function is the lesser experienced one, and that making one's job revolve around it is to develop it further? I can imagine people also making one's living from their subtype function, for instance.
I do understand, however, that with the ESIs you know the collective of their behaviours made you decide one subtype or the other, @Adam Strange.
Also, I always believed ESI-Ses to be more stubborn than ESI-Fis, since Se translates to force of will?

Both ESI-Fis and ESI-Ses can be stubborn. I mean, really stubborn. LIEs can change their minds, if the LIE is willing to devote enough time and additional information (facts) to the project, and they usually are. But they both are stubborn.

I'd say that their stubbornness manifests in different ways. An ESI-Se will come right back at you with an immediate response, which you will need to counter right then. An ESI-Fi might let your comment go uncontradicted for a while, but that does not mean that they agree with you. Eventually, the ESI-Fi will bring it up when they think they are in a good position. At that point, with both types, the debate starts, wherein each person states their position and each then tries to make their argument. Both ESIs argue on the basis of morality, and the LIE argues on the basis of facts. It is best to not try to "win" one of these arguments (unless you really want to end relations) but rather to find common ground and common agreement on the situation. Both ESI and LIE can be right about something, while seeming to take opposite stands.

I don't think I've ever changed an ESI's mind by using strictly moral reasoning. They are just way better at this than LIEs are. But I have changed their behavior based on facts.

I was dating an ESI-Fi who had been married to an auto worker in Flint, Michigan, for many years, and she had acquired his effortless racist speech. Once, when she was talking about her husband, she said that the neighborhood where he lived was full of n******.
Most of the circuit breakers in my head tripped out when I heard her say that. I slapped my forehead and said "You can't say that. That neighborhood is bad because the people who live there are poor."
She immediately looked panicky because she's not, fundamentally, racist. I've watched her on dates and she looks at people as people, even though her speech is full of terms which would not fly in my social circles. You know how some women acquire the political beliefs of their husband, without actually incorporating them into themselves? I think she's like this.
So, she immediately said "Oh! You're right. That neighborhood is poor." And then she made a mark in her brain, like someone does when they find out how to spell a word they've been mispronouncing, and we moved on.

Just for the record, my ESI grandmother also spoke like this, but she added Catholics and Italians and bohemians and other sub-categories to the mix. She just grew up in a time when this speech was commonly used by almost everyone.
Unless you're really old, you might not know what things were like, just a few decades ago. Complete transitions can happen fast, like the one in US society where being gay is not a curse any more.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...8fb_story.html

[Armitage]

Yup, stubbornness is definitely an ESI-LIE trait, and perhaps characteristic for the Gamma quadra as a whole. Research showed that stubborn people actually fare better with people who are stubborn too, than those who are meek, despite folk myths believing otherwise.

I have to say that I find the whole subtyping still a confusing process. Especially in combination with DCNH, because I don't see much difference between the two. What I know is that subtyping focuses on which of the two primary functions is increased, while DCNH looks if the introverted or extroverted perceiving functions versus the introverted or extroverted judging functions are stronger?

And then there's also apparently psyche yoga, that I know nothing yet about at all.

[Adam Strange]

Yup, stubbornness is definitely an ESI-LIE trait, and perhaps characteristic for the Gamma quadra as a whole. Research showed that stubborn people actually fare better with people who are stubborn too, than those who are meek, despite folk myths believing otherwise.

I have to say that I find the whole subtyping still a confusing process. Especially in combination with DCNH, because I don't see much difference between the two. What I know is that subtyping focuses on which of the two primary functions is increased, while DCNH looks if the introverted or extroverted perceiving functions versus the introverted or extroverted judging functions are stronger?

And then there's also apparently psyche yoga, that I know nothing yet about at all.

@Armitage, I know nothing about psyche yoga, and I'm pretty sure it'll stay that way.

I also don't believe that DCNH is useful in going forward, because research has shown that it is not fixed, but rather is a result of external circumstances. It's like judging character based on the fact that a person lives in Munich.
Researchers took a bunch of people who were all classified as D-types in a population full of DCNH types, and then isolated the D-types together, and they then differentiated into DCNH types in the new environment.
DCNH is Gulenko's latest foray into Ne land. It's useless for stable prediction, in my opinion.

I have found that sub-types are recognizable and generally don't change that much. The differences are subtle, but they are there. If it helps, an ESI-Se starts to look and act a lot like an SEE, while still being an influence-able Dual, which SEEs are not.
Likewise, an ESI-Fi strongly resembles an EII, while still being able to bond tightly with you in a real-world, functional way.

There are variations within a type, mainly due to the flavors of the enneagram, but those aside, I'm pretty sure that with experience, you'll be able to quickly categorize an ESI into one or the other sub-type.


Incidentally, if you are an LIE-Ni, then you will find ESI-Fis easier to meet in public (because you have more in common), but ESI-Ses will be a better match for you in your daily and private life (because you get better support).

[Armitage]

There are variations within a type, mainly due to the flavors of the enneagram, but those aside, I'm pretty sure that with experience, you'll be able to quickly categorize an ESI into one or the other sub-type.

Incidentally, if you are an LIE-Ni, then you will find ESI-Fis easier to meet in public (because you have more in common), but ESI-Ses will be a better match for you in your daily and private life (because you get better support).

Generally I tend to low-key vibe with ESI-Fis about shared music tastes, like with my best friend from my master class and with my study adviser. ESI-Fis are very soothing for low-key activities like a stroll through the park, a cinema night, or visiting an arts museum. While being around ESI-Ses energizes me, like when I'm with the fitness trainer friend, the bike guy or another of the athletic ESI-Se psychology friends I have met. We quickly start moving from talking about sports or pubbing to actually doing so. I want to go out and about with them visiting Gyms, jogging, and going travelling.

All those activities are pretty much past time related, so I cannot really tell which one fits me better. I do feel like I have more in common with ESI-Fis, because the things I do with them are regular hobbies of mine. It adds a very peaceful mood to it when they join me in it. While I feel more attracted to ESI-Ses, exactly because they challenge me to leave my comfort zone. I find them stimulating and they hold an exciting appeal to me. In a way I would like to be more like them.

[Adam Strange]

Generally I tend to low-key vibe with ESI-Fis about shared music tastes, like with my best friend from my master class and with my study adviser. ESI-Fis are very soothing for low-key activities like a stroll through the park, a cinema night, or visiting an arts museum. While being around ESI-Ses energizes me and we quickly start moving from talking about sports or pubbing to actually doing so. I want to go out and about with them visiting Gyms, jogging, and going travelling.

All those activities are pretty much past time related, so I cannot really tell which one fits me better. I do feel like I have more in common with ESI-Fis, because the things I do with them are regular hobbies of mine. It adds a very peaceful mood to it when they join me in it. While I feel more attracted to ESI-Ses, exactly because they challenge me to leave my comfort zone. I find them stimulating and they hold an exciting appeal to me. In a way I would like to be more like them.

@Armitage, I worked with an ESI-Se last summer, and dated an ESI-Fi at the same time. I had lots and lots of constructive fun with the ESI-Se, and I'd marry her if she weren't a lesbian, mainly because she can still have kids. I do think that she'd be a handful on a daily basis, though. We had to take breaks from each other. Lol.

With the ESI-Fi, it was more comfortable just doing things with her, and that included the sex. (No sex with the lesbian, regrettably.) I think they are both presentable companions in all parts of my life, so if the ESI-Se were actually available, it would be a toss-up as to which I'd prefer. But, maybe, if all external circumstances were equal, I think I'd lean towards the ESI-Fi. She's more stable and I think would/might raise better kids. Although the ESI-Se is pretty great with people.
Huh. I'm rambling. Let's just say it would be a tossup.

[Tarnished]

Convince ESI that some methods/way of getting shit done don't conflict with their sense of moral. I think I'm good at this which is why I'm not straight up conflict Te vs Fi with them in the first place.

ESI Fi can look a bit like SEI/EII, have more "caregiver" aura

[Armitage]

Yes @Tarnished, the Fi versus Te clash at the start of ESI-LIE dualization is the hardest thing to overcome. I presume that the same holds for Se-Ni for SEE-ILI dualization?

[Tarnished]

Yes @Tarnished, the Fi versus Te clash at the start of ESI-LIE dualization is the hardest thing to overcome. I presume that the same holds for Se-Ni for SEE-ILI dualization?

Se-Ni more like "You do your things, I do my things, don't bother each other much" ~~

[Tarnished]

I think it easier to see the connection between 2 functions when it's 3D-2D than when it's 4D-1D. I understand the connection between Te and Fi long before I could see the connection between Ni and Se.

[spacious]

I identify as ESI-0, for I relate neither to ESI-Fi nor to ESI-Se descriptions.

I have not taken the sociotype test that gives a numerical value (from 1-3, it appears) to one's leading or creative function. No plans to take it anytime soon, for I do not currently wish for more information of this form, lol.

If I thought someone were going to peg me as either ESI-Fi or ESI-Se, I s'pose I'd go for the former if only b/c it's my leading function, so ofc it's more present than my creative. Also, I've gone through long periods (particularly during the pandemic, but before it as well) when I lacked environmental opportunities to engage my Se, especially with others in real-life settings; I would use it in electronic chatting. I was spending a ton of time then reading dense academic material and was nearly obsessed with improving my critical thinking skills, which I saw as a necessary and worthwhile mission. I'm proud of what I did learn, but I certainly overdid the self-improvement self-flagellation escapades, which created more problems. These days, I think I'm a little more balanced. Now living alone and living with my very first pet of my own (a cat), I have innumerable opportunities to respond to environmental 'threats', opportunities, and pour a ton of time, energy, and attention into caring for and bonding with her. Friends and associates who have stopped by and met her, and seen us together, have remarked that my cat is lucky to have me taking care of her, for many people neglect their cats or pets, don't play with them enough, whereas for me it's nearly a matter of life or death in how seriously I take my responsibility to love her and fulfill her needs and desires. It's been a wonderfully enriching dimension of life to take on, pet ownership and relationship formation with my pet, and next I may look for a good book / guidebook about cats that I can consult, to consolidate my google searches and cat owner forum reading, or reading of reviews on products. Having around a knowledgeable person who could explain to me why my cat behaves in certain ways (not that she does anything especially unusual or perplexing, as far as I can tell) and suggest to me ways of approaching the situation that I hadn't thought of, is something I hope to experience in the future .