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Thread: Motive and Intention

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    Default Motive and Intention

    Which IEs can understand the motives and intentions of people better in your opinion?

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    Ni, maybe. IxI are typically the best at this in my experience. XII can reach similar levels of insight, I think, but IMO this requires more maturity and is less common than for IXI, who even if immature themselves, seem able to understand others remarkably naturally and deeply.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Ni, maybe. IxI are typically the best at this in my experience. XII can reach similar levels of insight, I think, but IMO this requires more maturity and is less common than for IXI.
    I think Ne is better at grasping the intention, I am not sure about the motive though, Ni can grasp it better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    I think Ne is better at grasping the intention, I am not sure about the motive though, Ni can grasp it better.
    I might just be too tired to make sense of this, but what do you see as the difference between “intention” and “motive?”

    By the way, is English your first language? I don’t know or don’t remember where you live, but seem to recall you’re in Europe somewhere. Maybe your distinction comes from another language? I think of the terms as pretty much synonymous, which is why I ask. Though maybe other people would disagree.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 06-30-2021 at 12:02 PM.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I might just be too tired to make sense of this, but what do you see as the difference between “intention” and “motive?”

    By the way, is English your first language? I don’t know or don’t remember where you live, but seem to recall you’re in Europe somewhere. Maybe your distinction comes from another language? I think of the terms as pretty much synonymous, which is why I ask.
    Intent is related to actions. Ex: Standing near someone to show your intent to talk to them.

    Motive is related to underlying reasons. Ex: You want to talk to someone because you feel lonely.

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    Ethics mostly. Ni also might help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Ethics mostly. Ni also might help.
    yeah... I find EIIs ESIs EIEs IEIs ESEs good at reading people

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    If I "appear" sad, ESE will ask me "What's wrong," but not realize I'm not sad

    If "I am" sad, EIE will observe that I'm sad + understand why I'm sad

    EII won't really acknowledge whether I "appear" sad or not, but know why I'm sad
    Last edited by pandemic candy; 06-30-2021 at 12:51 PM.

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    IEE (the psychologist) ime. Never met Ni types who are good at this.

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    Intention is the mental state/attitude of a person, it doesn't necessarily lead to anything. It is about the perspective of that person. Hence I think it is more related to Ne that's why Ne focus on like-mindness, etc.

    Motive is the reason, the cause that lead to an action/movement. Hence I thought it is more related to Ni.

    If both are related to Ni, then how does SxI-IxE duals survive in this context, do they rely on ethical functions of F types only?

    People can use these words interchangeably, so if people can explain why they think it is tied to one spesific IE or IEs, others can understand what they mean better.

    I agree that ethical functions are good at grasping these things.

    How do STs deal with this?

    Do Ti and Te or S functions have their own way to detect these things?

    I think Ti and Te have their own way to interpret relationships, emotions etc, however their way are definitely very different than F approach. Te focuses on facts about how things are evolving, Ti focuses on analyzing the behavior of people in order to gauge the motive and intention of other person.
    Last edited by myresearch; 06-30-2021 at 02:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    yeah... I find EIIs ESIs EIEs IEIs ESEs good at reading people
    Yes, although I would say that intent in the sense of self-interested motives is actually about Se. EIIs are notoriously bad at discerning that.

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    honestly i think it's kind of all of them because it depends on what kind of motive/intention. i also feel like Ti is really important in this for Ti/Fe valuers. like i feel like my Fi is rather judgmental and Ti HA analyzing Fe input is the graceful thing that can override it.

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    Fi types are the most inclined to try to figure out others intentions, and the most suspicious of others intentions in general.

    Intuition helps of course
    self-discovery
    self-development
    optimism
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    ILIs assume the worst intentions in people. They’re highly cynical and overly suspicious of others. I don’t think intuition is helpful to ILIs in this case. They tend to be over confident in their judgements about people.

    Also, one thing ILIs seem to miss is that their attitude towards people contributes to a positive feedback loop -

    ILI eyes someone with suspicion ->
    Person responds poorly ->
    ILI feels suspicions are justified + cynical views of humanity are reinforced->
    ILI is suspicious of next person ->
    And so on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megatrop View Post
    Fi types are the most inclined to try to figure out others intentions, and the most suspicious of others intentions in general.

    Intuition helps of course
    and if someone's motivate is constipation or IBS? just know they will try to hide it!

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    IxFx are the best at intuiting intentions and motivations, among people who have similar way of thinking. Outside their immediate sweet spot, they're no better at it than anybody else, just more wired to gather tons of hours practice listening, thinking, reading about it. But that's not the same as actually getting it right. I will spare you the "Fi dom assuming my motivations" rant. They are just as likely to be overconfident that they "get" somebody else's motivations. Their true skill is getting people to blab their life stories, motivations, intentions. After a while the same things keep coming up. They're not mind readers.

    INTx analytical powers far far exceed their actual understanding of people, which pisses me off because my dual is a sucker/fiend for true sounding flawed theory of mind.

    Anyway, this skill is more social instinct than type. Social last INFx can be clueless recluse aliens who barely understand anything beyond their own feelings, let alone other people. Social first extroverts can have an extremely strong grasp of what drives and moves masses.
    Last edited by inaLim; 06-30-2021 at 06:31 PM.

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    Ni people project bunch of weird motives onto me. They live in their subjective obsessions so I'd put the least weight on them. Those who measure it objectively and through feedback loop I'd go with extroverted ethicals.
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    I remember reading in some type description(Golihov) for ILE about them becoming "often with age becoming also good psychologists, since it allows them to maintain a good self-esteem.", which I believe to be accurate at least to me. I'd argue that the ability to understand people's motivations/intentions is mostly dependent on a strong intuition of both Ni and Ne(though probably leaning towards Ne to understand more unusual people) and maturity.

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    Honestly, I think it heavily depends on the motivations and intentions of the specific type/individual. I won't argue that there are some types that re better then others (cause there are) I would say LIE, EIE, ILE, IEI, ILI, and SLE are, on average, better at it then most.

    However, I've had all of those types often confuse or don't understand my motivations and I've seen them all get confused by certain intentions of others as well. I suck with motivations of others but, I think I am pretty good when it comes if people have good intentions or not. Another type can be the opposite. It also depends on experience and instinct stacking too. I think people of the same quadrant seem to understand each others intentions and motivations better then others on average. Heck there are people I have know for years and I still don't understand either while others with shorter time I know like the back of my hand. Just depends on the individual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissDucki View Post
    Honestly, I think it heavily depends on the motivations and intentions of the specific type/individual. I won't argue that there are some types that re better then others (cause there are) I would say LIE, EIE, ILE, IEI, ILI, and SLE are, on average, better at it then most.
    I am surprised to see SLE here. I think they are bad it, if they don't know the person for some time. On my previous job, SEE-D, SLE-H and I interrogated some workers on different occasions. SEE-D and I were generally on the same page about people's intents and motives and we were generally proven to be right later on. SLE had totally opposite thoughts about people, someone was trying to help, he tought he was lying etc. However, after they know a person, they are better at detecting these things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    I am surprised to see SLE here. I think they are bad it, if they don't know the person for some time. On my previous job, SEE-D, SLE-H and I interrogated some workers on different occasions. SEE-D and I were generally on the same page about people's intents and motives and we were generally proven to be right later on. SLE had totally opposite thoughts about people, someone was trying to help, he tought he was lying etc. However, after they know a person, they are better at detecting these things.
    I threw SLE on here as they can be decent with it when they actually decide too and think about it. Like you have mentioned too, they are better when it comes to people they have know awhile. I think SLE are better at understanding what will motivate someone and will use that to their advantage rather motivations of an action in itself if that makes sense? They get it wrong a too lol. They can get very stubborn about their perspective and view of it and what they believe are people's intentions and motivations that are wrong. Just, I think they understand a lot better then they let on when it comes to influencing others motivations.

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    There's one LIE familiar to me who had this odd ability to assume people's identities and reenact social relationships. I could never be sure if these people ever existed. Nevertheless, they had these stunningly elaborate conceptions of people and their surroundings. If you're around them long enough they're almost certain to be right about you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissDucki View Post
    I threw SLE on here as they can be decent with it when they actually decide too and think about it. Like you have mentioned too, they are better when it comes to people they have know awhile. I think SLE are better at understanding what will motivate someone and will use that to their advantage rather motivations of an action in itself if that makes sense? They get it wrong a too lol. They can get very stubborn about their perspective and view of it and what they believe are people's intentions and motivations that are wrong. Just, I think they understand a lot better then they let on when it comes to influencing others motivations.
    Really? I’m curious if you have specific examples. SLEs usually seem to me to have difficulty understanding Alpha and Gamma people’s motivations. Good at grasping other Betas and OK with Deltas, I think, but the other 2 quadras seem to confuse them IME. It’s hard for me to put a finger on this. I could be wrong.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by skosh View Post
    There's one LIE familiar to me who had this odd ability to assume people's identities and reenact social relationships. I could never be sure if these people ever existed. Nevertheless, they had these stunningly elaborate conceptions of people and their surroundings. If you're around them long enough they're almost certain to be right about you.

    I'd think that an EIE would be better at this than an LIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Really? I’m curious if you have specific examples. SLEs usually seem to me to have difficulty understanding Alpha and Gamma people’s motivations. Good at grasping other Betas and OK with Deltas, I think, but the other 2 quadras seem to confuse them IME. It’s hard for me to put a finger on this. I could be wrong.
    You're right! Just, I've been around too many SLE and I noticed this aspect. To me, SLE (especially SLE-Ti) are good at real-time motivation manipulation. In the sense, I find them pretty good at generally understanding someones motives when a specific goal is needed by them and I find them pretty good at influencing people to both combine their motive and the others motive. I might be a little more influenced simply because it's mirage and I feel a little more comfortable doing stuff they ask.

    I was at the bank trying to fix something with my bank account and the worker I was talking too was an SLE and he was trying to convince me, in a natural way, to open up a specific bank account in order to do stocks as I was interested at the time and you would need it. They also had a specific sale at the time to do it. He gave me his number and blah blah blah. I was interested until I went home and my mom told me that 'of course he was trying to do it because it's his job and they would get a bonus for doing so" and that left a sour taste in my mouth and I didn't end up doing it. My brother and an old Cowoker are SLE and they always convince me when I am motivated for a specific thing and I think they seem really good at capitalizing on it the most.

    There are others that are way way better at it and they do get it wrong a lot too. When the environment is fertile to their liking, they really know how to take advantage of it imo.

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    On average, N-types seem better at determining motives and intention; I've been quite good at it when I actually took interest. S-types seem much better than N-types at determining the character of someone. Ni-types will often pick up relevant clues in much quicker fashion because they're more dynamically interactive with people, but they're no better at determinations than Ne-types who typically have to deliberately look for something.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Depends on what it is. For instance, logical types might better grasp the logical intentions and motives in a procedure, set of rules, or budget. But when dealing with personal motivations, I think ethics and intuition helps. I think IEEs may be most apt in understanding people's motives and intentions.

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    I'm very good at this, they don't have to have my own similar motivations either. Are people just saying that cuz they don't like to be seen thru? I'm sorry but that's just bogus- we do it well to everybody no matter what, and they can be incredibly different from us. Ppl can be basically be read any of the ways;

    1. They want lots of money
    2. They want power
    3. They want to be bossy and tell others what to do
    4. They are just plain cruel and sadistic (did it all for the lols)
    5. They really are fucked up inside but have this 'nice guy/girl' mask for when they donate to charities or when the Te outside world is looking but interpersonally they are pieces of shit.
    6. They are naturally nice and good-natured, but are too much of a pussy to go anywhere in life (not properly utilizing Se to get what they want)
    7. They are naturally very manipulative and Machiavellian - telling others what they need at exactly the right time - relates strongly to #2 & #5
    8. They are moral and just, but also impulsive and too quick to anger- and are easily scapegoated by people with more nefarious intentions
    9. They are lazy and like to talk a lot but don't actually do anything... or go anywhere. They are just social butterflies. They want/need an alpha male type to do all the action for them.

    10. They are actually 100% good and ethical and don't do anything shady or exploitative to get what they want- and also have enough self-confidence and assertiveness. (haha in America, don't make me laugh!)

    My ESE mom is so naive to other people's power players it's bizarre to me. I admit as an IEI I used to kinda be a lot more naive when I was younger, but now it's pretty clear to see the kind of shit ppl are up 2.

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    oh I forgot. 11. they want to lie or exaggerate about others problems to make themselves look better and more righteous ((or just totally make something up via an easy scapegoat)) - in order to have more power. but idk that could be baked into one of the other ones probably.

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