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Thread: Celebrities we know, seen in Heaven

  1. #41
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    @Eliza Thomason

    I already keep you in my prayers. I already see a heart for truth in you, and I think God is going to spark that. I trust him to.

    If your 'God' really does exist, the only thing he's going to do is send me to Hell after I die. It seems like you are Cherry Picking the Bible, keeping the sappy lovey dovey feel good crap and ignoring his Wrath. So it is written:

    Or do you not know that the unrighteous1 will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do notbe deceived: xneither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,2
    10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, norswindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    And no it's not a projection- just empathizing on how *you* would probably feel if you gave up your faith. You can't go that "dark" so you won't give up your faith... but my entire point is it's not that dark, because there's much, much worse fates than nothingness. You weren't really listening.

    You know when you're an athiest you don't believe in Heaven OR Hell.


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    it's baseless mysticism which has nothing with christianity
    and there is no heaven and no hell

    the degree of faith is the degree of love to creation. anyone who you know are far from good faith
    capitalistic society is based on hating people and satanism. there are almost no people having that
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    Yes there is no doubt they can provide positive evidence, but signs and wonders were more for the Jews and Apostles when the word of God (the Bible) wasn't readily available.

    Again this is the doctrine of dispensation, which means certain parts of the Bible is to be applied to the proper context/time period/group of people.

    Since we have God's Word / Bible today, we don't depend on prophets/signs+wonders as heavily.

    I am not saying that some aren't legitimate, I'm saying prioritizing/depending on them over faith is a dangerous game to play.

    We also have the Harry Potter books today, doesn't make them true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    Old testament prophets.

    Observe how specific these prophecies were.

    If you study prophecy + ancient history, you'll be pretty blown away.







    No, I am not blown away. It is easy to claim a verse written in the past was predicting an event of your own times. Religions have a long history of doing it. Many of those passages certainly were not referring to Jesus or the Messiah.

    As it is, there is no contemporary evidence that Jesus even existed.

    Consider Sybil Trelawney's prophecy: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...."

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    you have different prophets, living in different times, living in different places, that don't know each other.

    these prophets made prophecies, that were very specific.

    and these prophecies did not contradict each other.

    that is, pretty damn impressive.
    The whole of the Old Testament was written within a very small area of the Middle East.

    The Old Testament has factual errors about history and science even when it is merely reporting on contemporary events. It has many failed prophecies. Not at all impressive.

    It is limited by the Iron Age times it was written in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    How do you know it's the "Word of God", rather than some Bronze Age goat-herders?
    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    What are you talking about? What evidence is there?
    Mathematics & Astronomy Professor Peter W. Stoner has made the statement that the chances of just 8 prophecies (like these) coming true by sheer chance is 1 in 1017(100,000,000,000,000,000). That would be equivalent to covering the whole state of Texaswith silver dollars two feet deep and then expecting a blindfolded man to walk across thestate and on the very first try find the ONE coin you marked (roughly equivalent to theProvince of Ontario being 1.5 feet deep). And if we were to add only 8 more similar prophecies, for a total of 16, the odds would be 1 x1028 x 1017 or 1 in 1045 (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000)

    Using the same type of illustration as above, if we were to press this many silver dollars(1045) into a ball and place the center of this ball where the center of our Sun is, this silverball's outer edge would be in approximately the same area as the orbit of Neptune (almostto Pluto.). One man fulfilling all 16 prophecies by sheer chance would be like sending ablind-folded person out to find one specific silver dollar that has been marked and has beenmixed up somewhere in this huge ball and actually finding it the first time! (Keep in mind thatthis is a three-dimensional BALL, not a disk like our Solar System.)
    you have different prophets, that don't know each other.

    these prophets made prophecies, that were very specific.

    and these prophecies did not contradict each other.

    you also have different authors of the bible, living in different times, living in different continents, writing books of the bible, that come together.

    that is, pretty damn impressive. (they didn't have internet either)

    ~50% of the prophecies have been fulfilled, ~50% are supposed to occur in the future.

    39 writers. 3 continents. 1500 years.

    1 story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    it's baseless mysticism which has nothing with christianity
    and there is no heaven and no hell

    the degree of faith is the degree of love to creation. anyone who you know are far from good faith
    capitalistic society is based on hating people and satanism. there are almost no people having that
    But is it baseless? Lol



    Evidence for the faith:

    --Historical/forensic evidence
    --Manuscript evidence
    --Archeology
    --Scientific evidence
    --Logical arguments
    --Intelligent design
    --Creation science
    --Philosophical arguments
    --Moral apologetics
    --Internal evidence
    --External evidence
    --Fulfilled prophecies
    Last edited by peteronfireee2; 02-03-2022 at 07:58 PM.

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    @pandemic candy based on my reading of the New Testament, I get the impression that the authors did not know when Jesus was born or when he died, and that they are ignorant of the area he supposedly lived.

    They claim a census happened that did not, they do not agree on which Emperor was in charge of the Roman Empire, they act as though the Romans governed Judea at the time of Jesus' birth when they did not, they act as though Pontius Pilate was a ditherer when in actual fact he is known from historical records to be a ruthless bastard who would not have cared about executing someone at Passover without a trial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    @Subteigh but it is impressive

    If you read about the failed prophecies I linked, you would know that Tyre has never failed to exist.

    Regarding the Book of Daniel:
    The prophecies of Daniel are accurate down to the career of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, king of Syria and oppressor of the Jews, but not in its prediction of his death: the author seems to know about Antiochus' two campaigns in Egypt (169 and 167 BCE), the desecration of the Temple (the "abomination of desolation"), and the fortification of the Akra (a fortress built inside Jerusalem), but he seems to know nothing about the reconstruction of the Temple or about the actual circumstances of Antiochus' death in late 164 BCE. Chapters 10–12 must therefore have been written between 167 and 164 BCE. There is no evidence of a significant time lapse between those chapters and chapters 8 and 9, and chapter 7 may have been written just a few months earlier again.[42]

    Further evidence of the book's date is in the fact that Daniel is excluded from the Hebrew Bible's canon of the prophets, which was closed around 200 BCE, and the Wisdom of Sirach, a work dating from around 180 BCE, draws on almost every book of the Old Testament except Daniel, leading scholars to suppose that its author was unaware of it. Daniel is, however, quoted in a section of the Sibylline Oracles commonly dated to the middle of the 2nd century BCE, and was popular at Qumran at much the same time, suggesting that it was known from the middle of that century.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel#Dating

    Other books can be dated in a similar way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    @Subteigh but it is impressive lol

    Matthew 24:6 says that "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars."

    ...and yet, we are living in the most peaceful time in history. A person is more than a hundred times less likely to die at the hands of another than in the time of Jesus. WHOOPS big prophecy fail if you are claiming that "prophecy" has been fulfilled.

    https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/art...is_there_peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    @pandemic candy based on my reading of the New Testament, I get the impression that the authors did not know when Jesus was born or when he died, and that they are ignorant of the area he supposedly lived.

    They claim a census happened that did not, they do not agree on which Emperor was in charge of the Roman Empire, they act as though the Romans governed Judea at the time of Jesus' birth when they did not, they act as though Pontius Pilate was a ditherer when in actual fact he is known from historical records to be a ruthless bastard who would not have cared about executing someone at Passover without a trial.
    Bro we've been debating for over a decade on this forum. You have enough evidence/data.

    You are wanting to force the data to fit your little criteria perfectly

    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    If a message inspires fear, I disregard it. After all, the Bible says God is love and in perfect love, there is no fear.
    The Bible says the Fear of the Lord is the beginning of His love.

    “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of his love: and faith is the beginning of cleaving unto him.” Ecc 25:12

    We feared our father growing up, and he disciplined us (SMACKED US across the head) out of love. Same concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Also, I am of the belief that scriptures, prophecies, and the like, are easily used to manipulate and control people.
    Anything has potential to "manipulate," but scriptures and prophecy were designed to give us hope during endtimes. They are our spiritual nourishment.

    The Bible stresses the importance of knowing the prophecies about the end time. This was as important as understanding the purity and simplicity of the Gospel.

    This should challenge us to learn more about the prophets, to learn from Daniel and Jeremiah, and to delve into Isaiah and Revelation.

    Sadly, here in America 2022, even Pastors, who have been at churches for years, even decades have not once really taught through the prophecies of the Old Testament, and they have not touched The Revelation.

    This is wrong; The Bible makes it clear that even new churches need to hear the prophecies, they need to hear that Jesus is coming again, that we should live ready to meet him, and try to tell as many as possible about the generous grace of God in salvation. But too many shy away. We weaken our people and deprive our churches of much needed spiritual food.

    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    When I was in high school, I got deep into the whole Christian doomsday thing and read a lot of alleged prophecies and what have you. All it did was make me fearful to the point I had to reckon the hypocrisy of my position. If I was trying to be a good Christian because I was afraid, then what was the point?
    Being a Christian isn't about "trying to be good" or "being better" than others. It's about surrendering to God. It's realizing that yes, although we are sinful and deserve hell, God loves us anyway and forgives us through Jesus Christ. And because of this Grace, this inspires us to be renewed day by day.

    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor 5:17
    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    I went on to study other religions, dabble with atheism and agnosticism, but ultimately approach the Bible and other scriptures using my own discernment. If it resonates, great. If it causes imbalance and unease, I move on to something more productive, like living life and trying to do the right thing and to do good to others, even when it is not convenient, which can take quite a bit of guts and is quite challenging at times, especially when people who go by conventional but outdated wisdom and are stuck looking through a narrow lens of egoism and want to convert you to their worldview, which is what many people do anyway (human nature) whether they talk of religion or not.
    If you study it deep enough, God's wisdom is timeless, and can be applied in any generation.

    You can believe whatever you want brotha, but everything has consequences,

    --You can think gravity doesn't exist and jump off the empire state building. But gravity doesn't care about your beliefs.

    --You can think eating a bunch of potato chips on the couch will not have detrimental effects to your health. But obesity doesn't care about your beliefs.

    --You can think certain laws don't apply to you and commit crime. But law enforcement doesn't care about your beliefs.
    You can believe whatever you want. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. But that won't save you from the consequences.

    This includes your spiritual beliefs. Truth (and consequences) exists here too.

    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    It's all about trying to have power over people's minds. It's not just the media and government that may try to influence people. It's your parents, your neighbors, your partner, your friends, your boss, and so on. I just choose what is authentic and to not get into the trap of falling into my own BS, which is probably the biggest challenge in being a "free thinker." And that, I believe is very helpful if one would manifest Christ and bring the kingdom of heaven to earth.
    Exactly. What if what you feel "is authentic" to you, is not true?

    What if it's a giant lie?

    We can only know this by knowing God's Word (The Bible)

    The Bible is the standard for Truth.

    If there is no standard, everyone is right, and nobody is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post

    I use the above philosophies to discern whether a spirit or what someone is saying is positive or negative.
    You can't pick and choose what you want to believe when it comes to following God. This isn't some kind of job fair.

    This is exactly why things like the New Age movement appeals to the masses; you can pretty much pick and choose what you want like you're at some produce market.

    You either follow him or you don't. There is no "aixelsyd-create-your-own adventure!®" with God unfortunately.

    So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.Rev 3:16
    25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:25-27
    It's not easy walking the narrow path, especially in this day in age.
    Last edited by peteronfireee2; 01-24-2022 at 09:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    Bro we've been debating for over a decade on this forum. You have enough evidence/data.

    You are wanting to force the data to fit your little criteria perfectly
    One failed prophecy in the bible is sufficient to prove it false.

    That it sometimes mentions factual details is no more significant than the Harry Potter books mentioning London.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    Bro we've been debating for over a decade on this forum. You have enough evidence/data.

    You are wanting to force the data to fit your little criteria perfectly
    For more than two thousand years - from before Christianity came about - mainstream Judaism had a clear picture of what its Messiah would be. On that point, the Christian claim to fulfil Messianic prophecies is just as wrong as Kat Kerr's failed prophecy claiming that Trump would win by a landslide in 2020.

    Except that there is no dispute that Donald Trump has existed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Except that there is no dispute that Donald Trump has existed.
    Oh lord, this is unrelated, but I so wish people in the future will argue whether or not trump existed. Now I need to invent time travel to see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    For more than two thousand years - from before Christianity came about - mainstream Judaism had a clear picture of what its Messiah would be.
    First lemme establish/add this:

    Fragments making up the book of Daniel were discovered in the Dead Sea scrolls (150 BC- AD 60) , demonstrating that the book of Daniel was well established holy scripture for the Jewish people living in the ancient Qumran community during the second BC

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    For more than two thousand years - from before Christianity came about - mainstream Judaism had a clear picture of what its Messiah would be. On that point, the Christian claim to fulfil Messianic prophecies is just as wrong as Kat Kerr's failed prophecy claiming that Trump would win by a landslide in 2020.

    Except that there is no dispute that Donald Trump has existed.
    People like Simeon, the Magi, John the Baptist, etc knew/expected the messiah to arrive. How did these people know this?

    It was because of the many prophecies foretelling the time frame and conditions for his arrival:

    --There are 109 separate and distinct prophecies, or more than 300 if you include prophecies that are repeated in some form about the Messiah that were fulfilled at Jesus' first coming.

    These included specific details regarding

    --timing
    --conditions
    --lineage
    --city of his birth
    --the nature of his life and ministry

    Also specifics regarding

    --his death
    --his burial
    --his resurrection

    Were all foretold in the Old testament.

    I mentioned the book of Daniel above.

    The book of Daniel, chapter 9 even provided the exact time frame for his coming.

    --

    Studies have been done calculating the probability of these prophecies being fulfilled by one person.

    Even if four of these prophecies were fulfilled by one person the probability of that happening would be 1 in 10 trillion.

    The odds of 48 prophecies being fulfilled by one person is 1 in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion (Lee Strobel, Case for Christ 1998)
    Last edited by peteronfireee2; 07-06-2021 at 01:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    ...So it is written:

    Or do you not know that the unrighteous1 will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do notbe deceived: xneither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,2[/FONT][/COLOR]10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, norswindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
    You are right about cherrypickng not being so good. Yes, we must consider also both the context and the whole revelation of who Jesus is. It helps to remeber that Jesus is perfect mercy and love, besides being perfect justice.

    Let's just pick one of those categories. Thieves. Two thieves were on crosses beside Jesus, and died that day, too. One went to Heaven. How is that?


    Orthodox Icon of St. Dismas

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    aaaaaah, imo judeo-christian god actually often chooses to demonstrate his works through his prophets, like Moses and Jesus. His prophets do things that make ppl look again bc God wants ppl to understand. He knows that without demonstrations humanity won't be convinced. He goes for dramatics like parting seas and turning water to wine and healing the sick. Things ppl can't explain are his mark when he wants everyone to see.
    Yes he does sometimes!

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    Ofc ppl who want you to pay attention to them will tell you reasons why God would go through someone like them, but it doesn't change that they have no real miracles to demonstrate.
    Yes. And then also when Herod asked Jesus to do a miracle, He didn't... So context means a lot. Once a teacher or a prophet tells an untruth about the thngs of God, I am done.

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    I'm just wondering if you could ever spot a fraud.
    Yes, I can spot frauds! I gave a link I think in post #18 about how to discern, there are many tells. I have been studying scripture for years and also theology, and I know error when I see it. Frauds will trip up and reveal themselves and I have seen frauds prophesying since January when i started listening. I just stop listening when its clear they are frauds. I like the prophets on Elijah streams, and also ther are manh other real ones, because God has sent many prophets, and He also equips the saints to discern the truth. (The demons help the frauds, so just as in Moses time the ones not with God can imitate some of God's miracles, and also they jsut because a prophet knows something amazing doesn't mean they are true - the demons know many things we don't, and are happy to share their inside kowledge, so you will depend on them, and they can mislead you). I have many years of experience discerning the spirits. The fruit is one thing. You look at the fruit.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 06-28-2021 at 06:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Yes, I can spot frauds! I gave a link I think in post #18 about how to discern, there are many tells. I have been studying scripture for years and also theology, and I know error when I see it. Frauds will trip up and reveal themselves and I have seen frauds prophesying since January when i started listening. I just stop listening when its clear they are frauds. I like the prophets on Elijah streams, and also ther are manh other real ones, because God has sent many prophets, and He also equips the saints to discern the truth. (The demons help the frauds, so just as in Moses time the ones not with God can imitate some of God's miracles, and also they jsut because a prophet knows something amazing doesn't mean they are true - the demons know many things we don't, and are happy to share their inside kowledge, so you will depend on them, and they can mislead you). I have many years of experience discerning the spirits. The fruit is one thing. You look at the fruit.
    How do I get the demons to find me and share some inside knowledge with me?
    "I use the U. S. Mail because I was never taught any different," she pleaded. "But I'm not your enemy. I don't want to be."

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    we already discussed this bro.
    I am sure you did. And look at the posts between you two just in this thread. No points taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    Bro we've been debating for over a decade on this forum.
    Ten years of none of your points taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    You are wanting to force the data to fit your little criteria perfectly
    Little is the operative word.

    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    I'm beta quadra. I'd love to investigate these details for 10 more years with you,
    Seriously? That would be insane.

    To have a true discussion, both people have to be of good will. Think about that.
    .
    “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." - Matthew 7:6

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    How do I get the demons to find me and share some inside knowledge with me?
    Devil likes this post. LOL.

    I know you are just being playful, but let me answer merry-you seriously, anyway: It's not free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Devil likes this post. LOL.

    I know you are just being playful, but let me answer merry you seriously, anyway: It's not free.
    I’m willing to bargain!
    "I use the U. S. Mail because I was never taught any different," she pleaded. "But I'm not your enemy. I don't want to be."

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    Default "I will slay the giant"

    Timothy Dixon shares prophetic dream June 26th, 2021: He saw Sidney Powell in his dream, and she said, "I will take this stone, and I will slay the giant, and I will cut his head off, this coming month."

    So thereyou go, another July prediction. Sidney Powell is goign to take down some giant. [metaphorical obviously, since we dn't know of any giants around here.] But one person takign down a giant is pretty obvious, so this won't be missed, either. All this month!

    After all these months, prophets are telling us, July is the month that this major turnaround of America begins - and it is not somethign sujbtle that people have to guess it. We won't miss it.


    It is totally understandable to recive this report sketically. I was skeptical - or at least quite reserv ed - whenI began moths ago to listen to the surprising words of these prophets and I ahve been praying for months over these things. I am sharing it here because we have some dates that are tangibnle: things happening in JLY, beginning with whaever God means by His "fireworks" on Jul 4th, and 5th and 6th). So you can delight in having heard about it already when it happens.


    I heard one report today (that I don't know to trust this report or not but it sounds believable to me) that there are currently 65,000 troops under Washigton D.C.

    God wiol begin to shake America this month but He is working in other nations, too - all nations, the whole world. As I recall, this includes turnover and exposure of evil doings in the Canadian** governemnt, a cleansing of Italy - and that won't be pretty (people won't want to be there), and some great work in Spain that includes evil exposures and turnovers there. Revival in England, Denmark, the Netherlands. Also North Korea will be freed (blended with South Korea) and really, all over the whole world. I have not heard about China specifically but I am looking forward to hearing about God's work in that suffering country of people so dear to Him, because I know He has good plans for them, too. I expect it will be amazing! Revival is coming on a huge scale like never seen before on earth, and the world will see great conversions, not only conversions but these conversions will be accompanied by massive numbers of miraculous healings (probably much needed especially because of the covid shot, IMO, but there is much illness inthe world). Do you want to see miracles in order to believe? You will. There is great hope if you or a loved one is not well.

    If you hate God and the things of God, you have lots of company in these current times. But soon you won't. You will soon be be quite, quite lonely in that. Just remember, no matter how hateful or how foolish about the things of god you have been, He is the perfect Father, full of perfect love, and He loves you deeply, and He waits with open arms for his prodigal sons.

    __________________
    *God is judging the evil doers and it will not be pretty, But before His judgment He always offers mercy to all, to take or not. Everyone has a perfect and clear chance to repent if they so choose. God is mercy and justice, in perfection.

    ** Recent prophecy for Canada: https://www.elijahlist.com/words/dis....html?ID=25385

    Also this for Canada: The following link takes you to a video that begins with prophet Barry Wunshof Canada talking about God's upcoming plans for the USA. But at 27 minutes in the video he begins to talk abotu God's very soon coming, unexpected plan for Canada, to take poor Canada to where Canada needs to go. I never heard of Barry Wunsh, and this is the first I watched him. But be forewarend that he not only has a painful-sounding raspy voice, which sounds like some kind of vocal cord issue, but he has a strange nervous tick that makes him yell out "hoa!", like a sneeze, at random times! But remember God picked Moses with a speech impediment to speak for Him for His great, great work for His people. Remember also Paul suffered all his life a "thorn in his side", that God did not heal. So God's ways are not our ways. We do know he uses the simple to confound the wise.

    Here is the link. It's a very clear prophecy for Canada, but not that long because he is at 35 min. now, talking about something else, I think. (Wow, he is on 39 min. now and talking more about Canada. Good news! God says, "I am coming with my fire to burn in the hearts and the minds of those who have been deceived. You are all my beloved and you will all get your full measure and more... I am bringing healing to your land. To your families and your marriages and your sons and your daughters. There is no wound too great for my healing touch." Wow! Then he goes on about glory in Vancouver. So lots more for C anada. It's here, starting at 27 min.: https://propheticvoice.com/angel-arm...eing-deployed/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Not sounding very profound, xerx. I'm not impressed. I'll take the rural truckdriver and the pink hair lady any day.
    Eliza, if we're saved by faith and not by works, then what motivation is there to accept Christianity in the first place? Why does this belief system exist other than to perpetuate itself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Eliza, if we're saved by faith and not by works, then what motivation is there to accept Christianity in the first place? Why does this belief system exist other than to perpetuate itself?
    I wrote an answer earlier, longer than I'd intended, but it felt right to me, and then ran it by my husband, who said, "I'd have answered it differently", so I took dictaton for of his excellent anser, then I hit a wrong key and everything disappeared. I was able to get mine back, but not his, so I set mine aside, and he will tell me again (hopefully tomorrow; I have to get to bed because I have a lot happening tomrrow), and then i will send you both responses. A SLI response and an IEE response. 2 for 1! : )
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Eliza, if we're saved by faith and not by works, then what motivation is there to accept Christianity in the first place? Why does this belief system exist other than to perpetuate itself?
    I read my answer to my husband and he said "I would have answered differently." So I had him dictate to me his anwser (twice, because I lost it the first time), and here that is:

    SLI husband's answer: "Believing that we are saved by faith alone does indeed present problems. As your question suggests, a belief that we are saved by faith alone seems to make religion pointless, because by that standard, what we do does not matter. This however is not the belief of all Christians, or even the majority of all Christians. Some Protestants profess to believe this, but even most of these do not really believe it in practice. "Faith Alone" comes from selecting a few isolated verses from St. Paul, but it is not even the entire teaching of St. Paul, and it ignores what Jesus said. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." -Matthew 7:21 Jesus taught that what was important isn't what we say, but what we do.

    And the Christian religion is about teaching us what that will of the Father is."



    ________
    My (IEE) answer:

    Actually it is more of a both/and. First, nothing we can do can save us, no matter how exemplary. Only Jesus's death for us can atone, and atonement is needed. We are ALL saved through Jesus alone (including lots now in Heaven who never knew Him on earth. (His laws are written on all of our hearts; when we love His laws we love Him). But Catholics, Orthodox and the vast majority of Protestants agree: We are saved by faith, and that by the grace of God alone[/B]. The "and" is that we must grow in holiness, we must do right, and follow God's ways.

    We are actually called to be perfect - that is the race we are to run. How can we be perfect? All things are possible with God.

    God helps us with supernatural graces to do His will. We just have to have SOME sort of will to do His will, even if we are completely unable on our own. Sometimes our painful past prevents growth, and there are all kinds of unseen enslavements, but God helps! God is involved; He is in relationship with us, ever present, supporting and helping us, not sitting back, just watching and judging - that's not fatherly. He rewards our faltering efforts and does not demand overmuch of us. An eternal truth: "My burden is easy and my yoke is light." He is the perfect Father who makes us feel perfectly loved just as we are, and guides us gently with perfect timing.

    Growing in holiness is a process, and we are to keep our eye on our own path not others' paths, because everyone has different challenges and has real reasons for doing wrong things we wouldn't do, and there iks no end to the wrong things we do ourselves to focus on. God invites us to relationship, and because we love Him, we seek to do His will.

    But if we spurn Him all our lives, we don't love Him. We cannot serve two masters, God and the world, because if we love one, we will hate the other. Die hating God, and as far as I see it, even with a last chance to repent (that God surely gives) a life lived hatign God can becoem a habit you don't want to give up, and you could want to choose eternal misery.

    Truly, no one goes to Hell without choosing it for themselves. It is an INFORMED choice, since God is perfectly just, so we know we are choosing joy forever or eternal torture forever. Goodness and love forever, vs. evil and hate forever. That is our choice - only that. On earth we must live with the existance of both, but there is no "both" in eternity. In eternity they are eternally separate. Both realties we see now will continue to exist forever, except that they are eternally separated. There is nothing that exists on earth that transforms to an alternative state of nothingness (just like nothing on earth does). Good and evil exist forever in eternity - eternally separated, never ever to meet again.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Ксеркс, царь царей xerx's Avatar
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    @Eliza Thomason I'll try to write a reply by tomorrow evening or the next day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    First lemme establish/add this:

    Fragments making up the book of Daniel were discovered in the Dead Sea scrolls (150 BC- AD 60) , demonstrating that the book of Daniel was well established holy scripture for the Jewish people living in the ancient Qumran community during the second BC



    People like Simeon, the Magi, John the Baptist, etc knew/expected the messiah to arrive. How did these people know this?

    It was because of the many prophecies foretelling the time frame and conditions for his arrival:

    --There are 109 separate and distinct prophecies, or more than 300 if you include prophecies that are repeated in some form about the Messiah that were fulfilled at Jesus' first coming.

    These included specific details regarding

    --timing
    --conditions
    --lineage
    --city of his birth
    --the nature of his life and ministry

    Also specifics regarding

    --his death
    --his burial
    --his resurrection

    Were all foretold in the Old testament.

    I mentioned the book of Daniel above.

    The book of Daniel, chapter 9 even provided the exact time frame for his coming.

    --

    Studies have been done calculating the probability of these prophecies being fulfilled by one person.

    Even if four of these prophecies were fulfilled by one person the probability of that happening would be 1 in 10 trillion.

    The odds of 48 prophecies being fulfilled by one person is 1 in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion (Lee Strobel, Case for Christ 1998)
    One failed prophecy is sufficient to prove the bible is not from an omnipotent being. It has many failed prophecies, and other errors.

    The Book of Daniel has many errors in it alone.

    All the prophecies about Harry Potter came true in the story. Does not mean Jesus Christ was a real person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    @Subteigh, if you're seriously comparing the data/presentation I just gave you to a Harry Potter book, you don't need more Te data, you need a brain scan.




    Lol. Nah bro

    I don't know why you're so obsessed with RationalWiki; it is about as reliable as the diary of an average middle school kid
    Well, it's more reliable than the bible.

    You haven't actually disputed one thing it said. I suspect you haven't read the links I posted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    The odds of 48 prophecies being fulfilled by one person is 1 in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion (Lee Strobel, Case for Christ 1998)
    If you find that book convincing, I suggest you read The Case Against The Case for Christ by Robert M. Price

    But I'd prefer you to read this one document discussing the "Historicity of Jesus": http://www.richardcarrier.info/Historicity_of_Jesus.pdf (direct pdf link)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandemic candy View Post
    lol i think it's cute that you discuss the questions/answers with ur husband.
    Yes, it is one of things I love about us and our particular duality, especially after a previous long marraige to a narcissist, who did not care what I thought about anything - except for the purpose of refuting it*. Truly God knows what we need, and in His timing, He provides...

    _____________________
    *(perhaps that sounds a bit familiar to you in the present).

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    @Eliza Thomason I'll try to write a reply by tomorrow evening or the next day.
    Great, thanks. When you get a chance is fine, becaue I am going to be offline for awihle, out of town, longer than I'd planned because I wil be supporting my freind whose husband's life is in jeopardy* so I am doing all I can to leave sooner, and then extra work shifts when I return.

    But I woke up this morning thinking of a something that needed adding to my husband's comment (I asked him and he agreed it should be added). So in my own words, as to the purpose of the chruch/religuion of Christianity:

    Another purpose of the church is to strengthen us to do the will of God. One way is fellowhip (we are all part of one body) but key is the Sacraments. Sacraments are a means of Divine Grace sent to us. Protestants have two: Baptism and Marriage, and the Catholics have seven*. Thats a lot less, but the other Sacraments doesnt fit in with their theology. We see the Sacraments as God's ordinary way of pouring out extraordinary graces, and God is not confined to His own ordinary ways - He meets people where they are.

    There are also many gifts of the Holy Spirit, and one of them is prophecy, and most of these prophets I have been listening to are Protestant, as it seems there is a special annoiting at this time for prophets.

    The Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is the center of our worship at Mass, for Catholics and Orthodox (and as one finds whern they go deep into history, it was also the center of worship for the earliest Christians and has contined to be for all of the time of the church on earth). Catholics and Orthodox takes Jesus' words seriously ["This is My Body, this is My Blood", and, "Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you."].

    ____

    * I want to be bold enough to say here that I am asking God for a miracle. I am asking God to give her husband a new heart, from his room full of organs in Heaven, that Kat Kerr saw, because I don't want my freind's heart to break if God forbid her husband doesn't make it, and I want to ask God for this boldly, especially for two reasons: He is soon ushering in a time of great miraculous healing unseen ever in the history of man, and I ask Him to anticipate that time for my friend's husband, and do a great miracle now, and also Kat Kerr has been mocked for this organ-room vision (she doesn't care) but I want to stand with her on this. Because there are many mysteries we cannot fathom!

    ** Those two, plus the Eucharist, Confirmation, Reconciliation, Annointing of the sick, Holy orders.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 06-29-2021 at 10:13 PM.

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    (Last night I listened to a prophet say - I forgot which one, as I listened to several - that this summer, after what begins on the 4th, with exposures of great evils and fraud, we will see these politians FIGHTING and fighting and fighting, as they accuse and accuse and engage in LOTS of whistle blowing. They will fight and accuse becase that is what evil does, and we will be seeing a snapshot of what hell is like, because that is all the damned do for all of eternity - they fight and attack one another. Forever.

    God says these evil ones will be done forever as far as political leadership; they will never return, and that He will put in thier place others who are worthy of the positions.

    He is telling us about America but He will be doing such things the world over. I am listening to American prophets, but I am sure he is telling things specific to other nations to prophets of other countries, because He does not act without telling His prophets first what He will be doing.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    so I discern carefully
    How exactly? By my own careful discernment I see a pink haired woman who is insisting to me that I believe her about things that are impossible to disprove or provide any evidence for. I personally don't like to assume that people are ill intentioned or just lying about things, but I need a damn good reason before I believe someone knows anything at all about the afterlife. What is your process for discernment exactly? Can you describe an objective methodology which you use to determine if you should trust a supposed prophet?
    “Things always seem fairer when we look back at them, and it is out of that inaccessible tower of the past that Longing leans and beckons.”
    — James Russell Lowell
    猫が生き甲斐

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    Eliza,

    you ignored the previous post I made about Paul (somehow Christians always manage to do this), but you've said this:

    Actually it is more of a both/and. First, nothing we can do can save us, no matter how exemplary. Only Jesus's death for us can atone, and atonement is needed. We are ALL saved through Jesus alone (including lots now in Heaven who never knew Him on earth. (His laws are written on all of our hearts; when we love His laws we love Him). But Catholics, Orthodox and the vast majority of Protestants agree: We are saved by faith, and that by the grace of God alone[/B]. The "and" is that we must grow in holiness, we must do right, and follow God's ways.


    I challenge you to make the case for being saved by faith-alone without citing Paul. As a special challenge, try citing Jesus' words to do this.

    I notice you've also mentioned Matthew 24's prophecy that no one will know the "day and hour" when Jesus returns. Since you apparently believe some of Jesus' words in that chapter, I wonder if you'll believe others.

    Elsewhere in that chapter, Jesus talks about how many false Christs will appear "to deceive, if possible, even the elect." But he says not to believe them: "So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

    In other words, if anyone's walking around claiming to have seen a physical manifestation of Jesus after he's already gone, Jesus says not to believe them, because his return will be obvious to everyone in the world.

    In Paul's conversion story, there was a flash -- a physical event, which others saw -- in which Paul claimed to have seen the true Jesus. Do you see a problem here? By the standards of Matthew 24, the Jesus that appeared to Paul was an imposter.
    "I use the U. S. Mail because I was never taught any different," she pleaded. "But I'm not your enemy. I don't want to be."

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    Ксеркс, царь царей xerx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    SLI husband's answer:

    Believing that we are saved by faith alone does indeed present problems. As your question suggests, a belief that we are saved by faith alone seems to make religion pointless, because by that standard, what we do does not matter. This however is not the belief of all Christians, or even the majority of all Christians. Some Protestants profess to believe this, but even most of these do not really believe it in practice. "Faith Alone" comes from selecting a few isolated verses from St. Paul, but it is not even the entire teaching of St. Paul, and it ignores what Jesus said. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." -Matthew 7:21 Jesus taught that what was important isn't what we say, but what we do.

    And the Christian religion is about teaching us what that will of the Father is.
    Ok, that's better.


    My (IEE) answer

    Actually it is more of a both/and. First, nothing we can do can save us, no matter how exemplary. Only Jesus's death for us can atone, and atonement is needed. We are ALL saved through Jesus alone (including lots now in Heaven who never knew Him on earth. (His laws are written on all of our hearts; when we love His laws we love Him). But Catholics, Orthodox and the vast majority of Protestants agree: We are saved by faith, and that by the grace of God alone[/B]. The "and" is that we must grow in holiness, we must do right, and follow God's ways.

    We are actually called to be perfect - that is the race we are to run. How can we be perfect? All things are possible with God.

    God helps us with supernatural graces to do His will. We just have to have SOME sort of will to do His will, even if we are completely unable on our own. Sometimes our painful past prevents growth, and there are all kinds of unseen enslavements, but God helps! God is involved; He is in relationship with us, ever present, supporting and helping us, not sitting back, just watching and judging - that's not fatherly. He rewards our faltering efforts and does not demand overmuch of us. An eternal truth:[I]"My burden is easy and my yoke is light." He is the perfect Father who makes us feel perfectly loved just as we are, and guides us gently with perfect timing.

    Growing in holiness is a process, and we are to keep our eye on our own path not others' paths, because everyone has different challenges and has real reasons for doing wrong things we wouldn't do, and there iks no end to the wrong things we do ourselves to focus on. God invites us to relationship, and because we love Him, we seek to do His will.

    But if we spurn Him all our lives, we don't love Him. We cannot serve two masters, God and the world, because if we love one, we will hate the other. Die hating God, and as far as I see it, even with a last chance to repent (that God surely gives) a life lived hatign God can becoem a habit you don't want to give up, and you could want to choose eternal misery.

    Truly, no one goes to Hell without choosing it for themselves. It is an INFORMED choice, since God is perfectly just, so we know we are choosing joy forever or eternal torture forever. Goodness and love forever, vs. evil and hate forever. That is our choice - only that. On earth we must live with the existance of both, but there is no "both" in eternity. In eternity they are eternally separate. Both realties we see now will continue to exist forever, except that they are eternally separated. There is nothing that exists on earth that transforms to an alternative state of nothingness (just like nothing on earth does). Good and evil exist forever in eternity - eternally separated, never ever to meet again.
    Yes, that's better than before. Good works of a secular kind ought to have at least some value.

    RE. the bolded part, Christianity's clean distinction between the divine and the worldly is hard for me to accept. It always seemed rather arbitrary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    How do I get the demons to find me and share some inside knowledge with me?
    Try not to give in to the demon, instead wait and stay in the tension and see what it wants. All spontaneous urges come from the collective unconscious. What you first experience can be a "simple" instinct but it is tied to greater archetypal material that will reveal itself later.

    For example a sexual urge can lead to spiritual experiences if postphoned. It's linked to what Freud called sublimation.

    I just read about this yesterday. I can give you the source if you want. It's Jungian. Very de-mystifying but in an interesting way.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Try not to give in to the demon, instead wait and stay in the tension and see what it wants. All spontaneous urges come from the collective unconscious. What you first experience can be a "simple" instinct but it is tied to greater archetypal material that will reveal itself later.

    For example a sexual urge can lead to spiritual experiences if postphoned. It's linked to what Freud called sublimation.

    I just read about this yesterday. I can give you the source if you want. It's Jungian. Very de-mystifying but in an interesting way.
    Sure, I’d appreciate it. If it’s a work of Jung you can just give me the title and I should be able to find it myself. I have an ebook copy of his collected works.

    Re. waiting for urges, I’ve felt my problem is that I’ve been waiting too long. I’ve been waiting my whole life, and now that I want to move I find myself unable. Too much buildup of psychic energy is also a problem. I’ve built up much and collapsed into psychosis a few times; I’d rather not go through this again. It’s just difficult to find appropriate outlets, rather than damming everything up and waiting for it to burst.
    "I use the U. S. Mail because I was never taught any different," she pleaded. "But I'm not your enemy. I don't want to be."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Sure, I’d appreciate it. If it’s a work of Jung you can just give me the title and I should be able to find it myself. I have an ebook copy of his collected works.

    Re. waiting for urges, I’ve felt my problem is that I’ve been waiting too long. I’ve been waiting my whole life, and now that I want to move I find myself unable. Too much buildup of psychic energy is also a problem. I’ve built up much and collapsed into psychosis a few times; I’d rather not go through this again. It’s just difficult to find appropriate outlets, rather than damming everything up and waiting for it to burst.
    Maybe a better example would be the urge for chocolate or something like that. Or over-eating. Daily instinctual disturbances that make us deviate from how we want to actually live. They are "demonic" very close to the definition of the word.

    Ive been reading "Alchemy, an introduction to the symbolism and the psychology" by Marie-Louise von Franz (LII). First chapters.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 06-30-2021 at 03:46 PM.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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