Why it's Silly to Claim that I am Fi-Ego

[jason_m]

The bottom line is:

- I might not be LII, but in my own life, it is very clear that I at least value Ti. One can claim is that I am weak in that function and I understand that, but if you were to see my passion for things like science and pure mathematics, it would be very hard to say that I don't at least value Ti - especially over Te. Now, is the theory wrong in my case, and I value both Fi and Ti? That I cannot say. But the bottom line is that my type might be wrong, but I am clearly Ti-valuing because of how much I love things like mathematics. That is why I do not like the EII typing of myself - and really the only reason. Now, am I strong in Ti or do I come off as typical Ti-ego? That I'm not certain of. And, if we start to get into a debate about me valuing both Fi and Ti and that I'm therefore stronger in Fi, then the typing system is not correct and the whole argument falls apart. That I'm somehow wrong about liking Ti is simply an ad hoc move. Whether or not I value the function is not debatable to me. That is something that I think everyone can understand...

[jason_m]

I could also imagine some people arguing that "it's always about Ti but never Ne" for me because I don't even question whether I'm Ne. I have had some bad experiences with Ti as of late, and it has created a lot of self-doubt. If I wanted to, I could easily work with someone and invent/develop a really innovative idea. Whether I'm Ne has therefore never really been a problem, so it is not even a question I debate...

[RBRS]

The bottom line is:

- I might not be LII, but in my own life, it is very clear that I at least value Ti. One can claim is that I am weak in that function and I understand that, but if you were to see my passion for things like science and pure mathematics, it would be very hard to say that I don't at least value Ti - especially over Te.

Science and math= Ti? When? Ti is an information element. An information element is like a filter for reality the "software" of your mind uses. A Ti user will be a Ti user if he's passionate about math, art, cooking, or football.

About associating internal qualities to subjects by own liking, and about self-typing through own likings and relationship to something, albeit being kinda retarded, is a strong sign of Fi, and I'll explain you why;

Fi is formally referred to as Implicit Field Statics, while Ti is formally referred to as Explicit Field Statics.
Explicit means the information to be either processed or generated from the external/objective, taking into account the stimulus on itself and not through internal dispositions, while implicit means the opposite, judging or perceiving information through perceived conceptual characteristics, or affectual qualities (which is what you are doing, assigning sciences the subjective conceptual quality of Ti then assessing how attracted you are to sciences to determine type).

Fields means the information is about the interconnections between objects and not the objects themselves (I like [The implicit quality] science & math (Objects there might be you, sciences and math, indicating you are perceiving and focusing on what connect you and science/math).

Statics means the information being judged/perceived is distinguished by fixed attributes,
and conclusions are seen as not changeable with different contexts.

You are a Fi type definitely.

[myresearch]

I could also imagine some people arguing that "it's always about Ti but never Ne" for me because I don't even question whether I'm Ne. I have had some bad experiences with Ti as of late, and it has created a lot of self-doubt. If I wanted to, I could easily work with someone and invent/develop a really innovative idea. Whether I'm Ne has therefore never really been a problem, so it is not even a question I debate...

What kind of experiences? If you give details, things can be more clear.

[peteronfireee2]

Ti tends to depersonalize objects. While Fi tends to personalize objects.

Think about silly teenagers getting high off cough syrup (Robitussin). The active ingredient, DXM, causes the individual to undergo massive dissociation. This dissociation causes a separation between themselves and their memories/emotions/thoughts. They'll even have a separation between themselves and their physical bodies (hence the robotic walk side effect). This separation may sometimes lead to new insights/perspective. This is also why ketamine (a powerful dissociative) is effective with things like treatment-resistant depression and PTSD.

Speaking of PTSD, trauma too, in of itself, can trigger one to undergo dissociation; you can sometimes see splitting of personalities as a protection mechanism to trauma (see dissociative identity disorder) or "shedding of the old, taking on the new."

This is opposite to say a drug like LSD, that causes individuals to see associations and connections between objects/things. Hence you can be looking at a piece of trash and find profound meaning and significance from it.

Anyway, in terms of socionics, depersonalization helps with classifying/categorizing while personalizing helps with relations.

PS: Don't do drugs. Drugs are bad.

[jason_m]

The bottom line is:

- I might not be LII, but in my own life, it is very clear that I at least value Ti. One can claim is that I am weak in that function and I understand that, but if you were to see my passion for things like science and pure mathematics, it would be very hard to say that I don't at least value Ti - especially over Te.

Science and math= Ti? When? Ti is an information element. An information element is like a filter for reality the "software" of your mind uses. A Ti user will be a Ti user if he's passionate about math, art, cooking, or football.

About associating internal qualities to subjects by own liking, and about self-typing through own likings and relationship to something, albeit being kinda retarded, is a strong sign of Fi, and I'll explain you why;

Fi is formally referred to as Implicit Field Statics, while Ti is formally referred to as Explicit Field Statics.
Explicit means the information to be either processed or generated from the external/objective, taking into account the stimulus on itself and not through internal dispositions, while implicit means the opposite, judging or perceiving information through perceived conceptual characteristics, or affectual qualities (which is what you are doing, assigning sciences the subjective conceptual quality of Ti then assessing how attracted you are to sciences to determine type).

Fields means the information is about the interconnections between objects and not the objects themselves (I like [The implicit quality] science & math (Objects there might be you, sciences and math, indicating you are perceiving and focusing on what connect you and science/math).

Statics means the information being judged/perceived is distinguished by fixed attributes,
and conclusions are seen as not changeable with different contexts.

You are a Fi type definitely.

That would mean that I value Te - which I don't. That would mean that you are telling me what I value. Assume logical, scientific thinking is Ti and practical/business affairs are Te. Then I value Ti. If this is not correct, then there is no definition of Te that I value period, so either the theory doesn't work or I value Ti.

There are a few definitions of Fi that I value (mainly moral/negative Fi, as I am not a warm person), a few definitions of Ti that I value, and a few definitions of Fe that I value, but Te doesn't resonate with me at all. Therefore, either the theory doesn't work or I am Ti-Fe-valuing. There are really no other options here. And if the theory doesn't work, then I don't know what to say, because I now don't know what functions fit together and in what order they fit... link is broken.

[jason_m]

What kind of experiences? If you give details, things can be more clear.

I have thought of all sorts of different "innovative" ideas in my spare time.

- One idea is a service station that is completely automated. There is no attendant (and therefore saves money). Pumps work fully by debit. It's just pay by debit and pump. Could be functional all day long. A fully automated fast food restaurant is another idea that could be fleshed out.
- I have thought of different board games and puzzles that could be devised. One is a board game in which each player has to travel through the New York Subway System to their destination. There is a set of "stops" at which one flips a card/rolls a dice and this determines different aspects of their route. Whoever reaches their destination first wins.
- Another idea is a book of word games that are completely different from most of the word games out there. These would involve deductive reasoning, and you would use both your knowledge of words and your reasoning ability to solve the puzzles - as opposed to something like a crossword puzzle that relies almost entirely on knowledge. An example of a possible puzzle I had seen was a phone with each dial number representing the equivalent three letters of the alphabet. Each word is specified by a set of numbers. You would then convert each number to one of the equivalent three letters to spell out the word. I like this more than something like a crossword, because there is more thinking/reasoning than just recall.
- Give me any single invention, and I can think of dozens of ways it can be improved. For instance, for Microsoft Word: why not a feature in which you could just "scan" a paper in and it converts it automatically to text? Why not the ability to put a text editor onto your phone and record (e.g.) a lecture and it converts the audible words to text automatically?
- These are just some of the ideas I have thought of. And I could think of dozens more...

[myresearch]

I have had some bad experiences with Ti as of late, and it has created a lot of self-doubt.

What kind of bad experiences you had with Ti which created self doubt?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I thought you were ILE?

With most Alphas, no offense but I feel like the 'dom' or top even though I'm shy and soft IEI. It's like something about Alphas... I easily approach and walk into them. Gammas I'm honestly a bit scared of- I'm like intimidated of them kind of and 'step back' whereas Alphas I 'easily step forward.'

Everything you say on the forum, I 'step forward' and like want to fuck you. Not sexually or erotically or anything I mean, it's just a Fe figurative of speech so don't take it literal lol but yeah.

And I do think I try to like 'correct' or help/improve everything you say. Like it's the way LIEs treat me- they find me interesting and they easily approach and deal with whatever I talk about and supervision because Gamma corrects Beta the way Beta corrects Alpha.

So yeah you are an adorable Alpha to me lol.

[FreelancePoliceman]

I thought you were ILE?

With most Alphas, no offense but I feel like the 'dom' or top even though I'm shy and soft IEI. It's like something about Alphas... I easily approach and walk into them. Gammas I'm honestly a bit scared of- I'm like intimidated of them kind of and 'step back' whereas Alphas I 'easily step forward.'

Everything you say on the forum, I 'step forward' and like want to fuck you. Not sexually or erotically or anything I mean, it's just a Fe figurative of speech so don't take it literal lol but yeah.

And I do think I try to like 'correct' or help/improve everything you say. Like it's the way LIEs treat me- they find me interesting and they easily approach and deal with whatever I talk about and supervision because Gamma corrects Beta the way Beta corrects Alpha.

So yeah you are an adorable Alpha to me lol.

Do you want to fuck me? Lol. And could you explain more what you mean by “fucking?” I have no idea what you mean by that and it seems like a strange analogy.

[MissDucki]

With most Alphas, no offense but I feel like the 'dom' or top even though I'm shy and soft IEI. It's like something about Alphas... I easily approach and walk into them. Gammas I'm honestly a bit scared of- I'm like intimidated of them kind of and 'step back' whereas Alphas I 'easily step forward.'

Everything you say on the forum, I 'step forward' and like want to fuck you. Not sexually or erotically or anything I mean, it's just a Fe figurative of speech so don't take it literal lol but yeah.

So yeah you are an adorable Alpha to me lol.

Is there like some secret Alpha/Beta Intuitive sex club that I am not aware of? I am sad I am not a part of it I mean, that figure of speech could definitely be some some suggestive code words (jk jk jk).

I've always seen Beta NF's feel a necessary to guide or help Alpha NT's. Kinda that mirage aspect me thinks. Beta ST's are the same way with me.

[jason_m]

What kind of bad experiences you had with Ti which created self doubt?

It was just with physics, certain areas of pure math and the Feynman Lectures. Things like CS are no problem. It just created some uncertainty that I am Ti-leading.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Do you want to fuck me? Lol. And could you explain more what you mean by “fucking?” I have no idea what you mean by that and it seems like a strange analogy.

lol You're weird to me. You say you're LII but you're also kind of a ILI-like LII too, in ways. But my dad was LII and so maybe I respect LII male authority because of that.

dunno I just have this theory that like you easily 'step in' to the quadra that comes before you. Like it's easy for you to approach and try to fix what they say or something.

Henceforth:

Alphas fuck Deltas
Betas fuck Alphas
Gammas fuck Betas
and Deltas fuck Gammas

[mr provocateur]

Process sort of Ne is observable. External situations goes towards inner subconscious. IMO.

[RBRS]

That would mean that I value Te - which I don't. That would mean that you are telling me what I value. Assume logical, scientific thinking is Ti and practical/business affairs are Te. Then I value Ti. If this is not correct, then there is no definition of Te that I value period, so either the theory doesn't work or I value Ti.

There are a few definitions of Fi that I value (mainly moral/negative Fi, as I am not a warm person), a few definitions of Ti that I value, and a few definitions of Fe that I value, but Te doesn't resonate with me at all. Therefore, either the theory doesn't work or I am Ti-Fe-valuing. There are really no other options here. And if the theory doesn't work, then I don't know what to say, because I now don't know what functions fit together and in what order they fit... link is broken.

Te is extrinsic object dynamics, not business/practical (That's a stereotype) which means;

Perceiving/gathering/generating extrinsic, de-personalized and objective information directly about the object and not about how it is or isn't related to other objects or the subject, and can change under different conditions or circunstances.

To simplify things to the utmost, Te gathers variable information about a decision in order to assess the most rational course of action. Te can analyze cost, benefits, possibilities of success, past successful examples or past viable projects, methods, etc and then organize a plan for implementation, adjusting what needs to be changed when it can or has to be changed, either be it for business, a school project, writing a book, or going to the mall.

Te learns better through a loose stream of information about a subject than through how that subject is internally structured. Te types usually gather large databases of factual information and they change the parts to adapt them to new, better or more externally supported pieces of data, for example.

If you want to compare Ti oriented thought to Te oriented thought, I suggest comparing Kant's Critique of pure reason (Systematic information about how objects are defined and interrelated in metaphysics) or Thomas Aquinas "Suma Theologica" to "The metaphysics" by Aristotle, which is a philosophy book that at the same time could be said to be Te oriented.

Fi leads have 1D suggestive Te, which means it doesn't show up and they find it difficult to be overwhelmed by this element, since it perfectly complements and drives the activity of the leading function. The more it is present in his daily life, the more he will naturally adapt to its presence. They are easily entertained by this kind of information, and its sustained presence creates a soothing psychological effect.

Liking structured scientific thought over practical/business is unrelated. Ti might be even more related to theology than it might be to sciences, if we have to relate it to something, yet Ti, Te, Si, Se, Fi, Fe, Ni and Ne can be applied to every subject, from econometrics to olive oil.

[jason_m]

Fi leads have 1D suggestive Te, which means it doesn't show up and they find it difficult to be overwhelmed by this element, since it perfectly complements and drives the activity of the leading function. The more it is present in his daily life, the more he will naturally adapt to its presence. They are easily entertained by this kind of information, and its sustained presence creates a soothing psychological effect.

I know some people who are Te, and I don't find a soothing effect, but here is what I don't like about the questioning of my type: I grew up in a Catholic family and went to Catholic school. The things that are labeled 'Fi' are things that as someone Catholic, I am actually supposed to value. I feel subconsciously that people who force me to admit I don't like Fi are forcing me to do something like question my religion, as Catholicism could not be more Fi to me. The truth is, I read descriptions of EIIs, and I don't actually identify with them, maybe even finding a lot of them to be very much on the touchy-feely, "sappy" side of the spectrum. As someone who grew up Catholic, this is embarrassing to me. I also find a lot of the people in the Catholic Church to be sappy, almost servile, and it embarrasses me again. This is what has to come out, and I don't want to say it, because it goes against the principles I grew up believing in. Really, I look at pictures of Christ, and I get the feeling that he is something like a 'hippy,' because of the functions I value. All of this is embarrassing, and I don't want to talk about it. To me, Fi could not be more servile, more sappy, more touchy-feely. The problem is that certain definitions of Fe are this way too. The only kind of Fi I like is someone who only shows it in subtle ways, because then, I don't get this touchy-feely element from it. I get the same thing from an Fe 'caregiver', where it just seems overly warm again. The Fe I like is someone laugh-out-loud silly, without the servile side, and I feel embarrassed admitting this.

I am also a sensitive person, and I don't like someone who is an a**hole. Because of theory, this makes me feel illogical. However, this doesn't translate into me valuing Te or Fi in any way. Could we say then that a**holes are therefore 'just acting logically', because they are logical types? This seems preposterous, maybe even senile, and I don't buy the argument that when someone acts obnoxious, they have some profound logic inside them somewhere - whether they SLE or ESTJ in the MBTI or whatever type.

EDIT: I also don't buy the argument that someone logical writes in a way that is structured, brief-and-business-like, to the point. This is just as senile to me as the notion that someone obnoxious has something logical to say. Neither mean anything to me. Neither idea could be more superficial. The idea just stinks, maybe even reeks...

[Tarnished]

SEI or EII?

The way you talk just doesn't look Ti lead enough. Very F- like

[jason_m]

SEI or EII?

The way you talk just doesn't look Ti lead enough. Very F- like

What did I just say?

[Tarnished]

EDIT: I also don't buy the argument that someone logical writes in a way that is structured, brief-and-business-like, to the point. This is just as senile to me as the notion that someone obnoxious has something logical to say. Neither mean anything to me. Neither idea could be more superficial. The idea just stinks, maybe even reeks...

So this is Te polr?

[jason_m]

My writing style is actually based on a number of popular science writers that I studied. I used to be more straightforward and to the point, using an analytical tone. Then I started reading Feynman, Sagan, Hawking, Greene, etc. And boy could they write - or give an interview, as in the case of Feynman. I therefore tried to adapt my writing style to the way they convey information - more colloquially, I suppose. Of course, I was logical type then. Now, I am feeling type for trying to write with their clarity and gift for presentation... Just stinks...

[jason_m]

I wasn't trying to be ILE or (LIE), if that is even their type. I just loved the way a lot of these science writers can convey their ideas. It inspired me to take the same approach. Therefore, every time I am writing, there is some random science writer that I am subconsciously thinking of. They seem to have a clear writing style, and they present their ideas in a way that gets people's attention and is interesting. My writing style before used to be more analytical and dry - think Roger Penrose. Even in school, I used to roughly get A-'s for most of my essays, then when I tried to be more clear and interesting, my marks became higher - now A's instead of A-'s. I therefore stuck with it...

[jason_m]

I'll just tease it out then: are these people not Ti at all? I assumed that I sounded very and Ne and mildly Ti, but do these popular books not have Ti? That was why I typed myself LII-Ne. I am LII, but with more focus on Ne... But do I not really sound like them or do they not have Ti in their writing? You pick...

[FreelancePoliceman]

Is there like some secret Alpha/Beta Intuitive sex club that I am not aware of? I am sad I am not a part of it I mean, that figure of speech could definitely be some some suggestive code words (jk jk jk).

I've always seen Beta NF's feel a necessary to guide or help Alpha NT's. Kinda that mirage aspect me thinks. Beta ST's are the same way with me.

Mirage is only ILE-IEI, right? IEIs benefit LIIs; ILEs benefit EIEs; LII-EIE are semiduals. I’m drunk and up way too late right now but that seems right.
@BandD was mentioning a theory that types “grow into” the next quadra. This is something I’ve wondered about myself; I’ve seen Deltas in my family strangely intimidated/impressed by Alphas, and I often feel similarly with Betas — though, not enough to want to be one or abandon my own mentality.

EIEs are great for me. I’m a big fan. 1/3 of them are psychopaths. 1/3 of them are crazy, though I still usually like them. The remaining third are like coke for me, I imagine; just amazing.

As for IEIs, I get the feeling we’d annoy each other if together for too long, but in short doses they’re really great too. Make great conversation partners; they’re good at making me think in ways I tend not to, and I really appreciate their insights.

What I most like about Beta NFs is how accepting they tend to be. This is hard for me to explain well. It tends to feel like I can talk about absolutely anything without a filter, and they never make me feel like I’m strange for what I say or think, and they usually grasp my thoughts well. With most other people, the more I talk, I tend to get the impression they think I’m weird or “different,” and never really think of me as another person that’s “on their level,” so to speak. Even with ESEs, speaking with them can be great, but they just...assume we’re different (which is probably right), and so don’t seem to bother trying to get to an understanding of each other or a level of communication that’s more than surface-level. Or they’re barely aware of anything more than surface-level themselves. But Beta NFs are the only types I tend to feel like I can talk about anything to and be understood without judgement. That’s valuable to me, and I particularly prize their friendship.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

@FreelancePoliceman

Aww thank you, that was nice. Yeah I'm very accepting to what people say- it's one of my virtues. I can never really be that offended with what most people simply say- because I feel like I can always say something even worse lol. I will get weirded out sometimes though if I sense there's real physical stake behind what people say though. When I was bullied it got under my skin and bothered me because it was physical, not verbal. Sometimes I feel Deltas are the exact opposite with this.

I think IEIs though can get oversensitive and pissy despite this though- but I have been good friends with LIIs before cuz I think we are affectionate/understanding to each other's vulnerabilities and that makes for good friendship. You guys are T types so despite the Se polr you can 'withstand' a lot of things we shy away from.

[Tarnished]

What I most like about Beta NFs is how accepting they tend to be. This is hard for me to explain well. It tends to feel like I can talk about absolutely anything without a filter, and they never make me feel like I’m strange for what I say or think, and they usually grasp my thoughts well. With most other people, the more I talk, I tend to get the impression they think I’m weird or “different,” and never really think of me as another person that’s “on their level,” so to speak. Even with ESEs, speaking with them can be great, but they just...assume we’re different (which is probably right), and so don’t seem to bother trying to get to an understanding of each other or a level of communication that’s more than surface-level. Or they’re barely aware of anything more than surface-level themselves. But Beta NFs are the only types I tend to feel like I can talk about anything to and be understood without judgement. That’s valuable to me, and I particularly prize their friendship.

Your problems remind me with some LII I know. They like to talk about their analysis, their perspective, ... their Ti Ne things (which is understandable for alpha quadra - they like to talk) and people around them just WTF. Some LII try to change this by focus more on Ne-Fe topics instead of Ti, but they never satisfy with it.

I think it's because of ignoring Te, they seem to lack the abilities to simplify thing. When I'm not smarter than them, I give people the "feeling" that I'm smart, because I always give people direct advices to solve problems, (you do this and you do that and...), I simplify what a person need to understand in order to to fullfill his role/job. And I have never bother trying to explain everything to them, because... well, I know they won't need it - they don't want to hear about it. My Ni told me that...

I look weirdo mainly because of Fe polr and my detachment from reality :v I rarely show my 4d Ni and Ti to people, unless they are NT or maybe IEI.

[mr provocateur]

Yeah, I think you stress topics like I do. Anyway the stress you seem to have over exact sciences is that you lack practice and your regular chemists do not know how to solve Schrödinger's equation.. it is nice to know the background but mostly useless (unless you fancy it in your expertise) so they just use the results that gives electron configurations and stuff... and it is lots of boring math. So general understanding is more important than technical skills as it might be other way around in programming where technical skills are more important.

[Northstar]

I have thought of all sorts of different "innovative" ideas in my spare time.

- One idea is a service station that is completely automated. There is no attendant (and therefore saves money). Pumps work fully by debit. It's just pay by debit and pump. Could be functional all day long. A fully automated fast food restaurant is another idea that could be fleshed out.

You mean like most gas stations already are? At least in northern europe.

- I have thought of different board games and puzzles that could be devised. One is a board game in which each player has to travel through the New York Subway System to their destination. There is a set of "stops" at which one flips a card/rolls a dice and this determines different aspects of their route. Whoever reaches their destination first wins.

Lots of board games incorporate this mechanic.

- Give me any single invention, and I can think of dozens of ways it can be improved. For instance, for Microsoft Word: why not a feature in which you could just "scan" a paper in and it converts it automatically to text? Why not the ability to put a text editor onto your phone and record (e.g.) a lecture and it converts the audible words to text automatically?

OCR and speech-to-text have been around for a long time.. the first one is easier.

[mr provocateur]

You mean like most gas stations already are? At least in northern europe.

Looks like there are trust issues in some places, lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fillin...pes_of_service
I wonder how much money is being wasted on these trifles worldwide.

[Northstar]

Looks like there are trust issues in some places, lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fillin...pes_of_service
I wonder how much money is being wasted on these trifles worldwide.

Lol, you can trust anyone with a gun in murica and let 16-year olds drive but can't let people pump their own fuel!

[Lycantrope]

Ti tends to depersonalize objects. While Fi tends to personalize objects.

Fe tends to personalize objects, I believe even Jung talks about this when explaining the inferior Fe function and how Ti types get obsessed with specific things or persons.

[Lycantrope]

Therefore, either the theory doesn't work or I am Ti-Fe-valuing

now, this is an interesting argument because it tells you don't like inconsistencies which is generally a logical type value. Basically saying "either I'm right because the system is like that and I'm pointing to you what the system is like (Te) or.. the system is wrong".

The thing that differs mainly Ti from Te is that Ti ego types like to think on their own feet no matter the data presented. They wanna look at the implications past the data. In sciences there is the theoretical part which I believe to be more Ti based and there is the scientific method and testing part which I believe to be more reliant on Te.