The Truth about my Bad Relations

[jason_m]

Honestly,

People can come up with any excuse they want. The truth about my negative relations is just that the other side is just a jerk. They can type themselves any way they want - from ESI to ILE. If it doesn't work, it's not because I simply don't like their function. It's because they are just nasty. The only problem is that sometimes I confuse "trash talk" or someone "just joking" with what is real harassment, but, other than that, when it doesn't work, it's because of their attitude.

If it were just about functions, then I might be Te-PoLR. The problem is that most of the time I just don't connect with Te, so that is not true... When we clash - whoops - it's because the other side has some, expletive, nasty comment, etc. for me again...

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Aren't you supposed to be ILE or something.

If you are always around jerks it's possible you are a jerk yourself just not fully aware of it if that is all you are attracting, but it is highly dependent on the environment.

Also maybe it's an Alpha quadra thing, cuz I hear from a lot of Gamma rationals especially saying things like 'People shouldn't be so nice and sensitive, we should all just be super real and Fi no matter how jerkish it appears to others. Fuck the emotional group atmosphere that's gay. /says something sadistic and cutting and Gamma.'

I roll my eyes a bit when Gammas are like that too, but if I was Alpha- maybe I especially would find that sorta thing annoying. And maybe cuz my parents are Alphas I have more empathy to it. But at the same time Alphas can be 'pussies' and too weak at times as well.

No offense but I think alphas cry the easiest- in front of real sadism. Alphas are the 'childlike' quadra and it makes sense- it's easy to torture a baby with sadism obviously in a pure demon way. They are weak against Gamma sadism & Gammas are weak against Alpha Fe.

If ur an Alpha then Gamma would be opposing quadra and yeah you especially wouldn't like that sort of thing?

[Ave]

If you are always around jerks it's possible you are a jerk yourself just not fully aware of it if that is all you are attracting, but it is highly dependent on the environment.

You could also not be a jerk and attract jerks.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Yeah of course, jerks often will zero in on the person that is the most genuinely heartfelt and innocent. The more kitten-y you are the more it feels good to kick you. Sorry if you have to deal with people like that OP.

I mean I have chastised Esther Hicks before but I kinda liked it when she said "Run away if you have to" lol. No sense in being around other people if they aren't going to uplift, support and encourage you somewhat.

[MissDucki]

Relations are never going to be perfect cause, well......who has met the the perfect person? lol

If you seem to be always having bad relations with others, then there are three possibilities: its the environment, it's you, or it's both. A lot of people don't realize how impactful the environment can sniffle us if we are in the wrong environment. I don't believe that we attract a 'certain' type of people at this point in life. More so, we accept what we think is 'acceptable'. If your in a shitty environment and you have been beaten down, your more likely to accept shit. If you are in a good environment, less so.

However, if your always having issues with everyone, you gotta look at yourself regardless the type. Gotta sit down and look at the mirror awhile and be honest about your own stuff. Sometimes, were kinda the crappy person. Good thing is that can change with time and effort but, it is a serious pill to swallow.

Maybe it's just both. Crappy environment with crappy people and ourselves not being the healthiest. No types or person is always going to get along. Hell, I don't always get along with everyone. Most people really don't think about actions or introspect on their actions or beliefs too much, it's just their own environment and experiences growing up and different quadrant values. You would be surprised about how many people project stuff, myself included.

That's just my take.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Aren't you supposed to be ILE or something.

If you are always around jerks it's possible you are a jerk yourself just not fully aware of it if that is all you are attracting, but it is highly dependent on the environment.

Also maybe it's an Alpha quadra thing, cuz I hear from a lot of Gamma rationals especially saying things like 'People shouldn't be so nice and sensitive, we should all just be super real and Fi no matter how jerkish it appears to others. Fuck the emotional group atmosphere that's gay. /says something sadistic and cutting and Gamma.'

I roll my eyes a bit when Gammas are like that too, but if I was Alpha- maybe I especially would find that sorta thing annoying. And maybe cuz my parents are Alphas I have more empathy to it. But at the same time Alphas can be 'pussies' and too weak at times as well.

No offense but I think alphas cry the easiest- in front of real sadism. Alphas are the 'childlike' quadra and it makes sense- it's easy to torture a baby with sadism obviously in a pure demon way. They are weak against Gamma sadism & Gammas are weak against Alpha Fe.

If ur an Alpha then Gamma would be opposing quadra and yeah you especially wouldn't like that sort of thing?

Everyone of any type has to get tough. It seems to me that Alpha and Gamma’s edge/harshness is more internal, and Beta’s/Delta’s more external. Maybe aristocratic types guard walls between themselves and others, while democratic types keep their weapons closer to the heart.

I’m not sure that quadra opposition means anything significant in terms of causing conflict or whatever. I’m also not sure that Gammas are more sadistic on average than, say, Betas, whom good Socionicists know are the ultimate source of evil in this world. But to the extent that Alpha and Gamma morality are opposed, I think Alphas implicitly assume that no one has a right to cause trouble for others in order to satisfy their ego, while Gammas, for better or for worse, tend to consider their own actions without reference to what others think.

[myresearch]

This might not be the case, however, some people can seem really nice, they might not trash talk or fight in the open, they may not even utter a single bad/mean word, however, they can be ill intentioned, they can plot against you or do things that can harm you behind your back. If their ill intetions are equal, it shouldn't matter, if they own it or not, yet I think people who try to seem nice are more dangerous because they can make the other person look bad while looking like angel.

Besides, when people are too watchful of the words uttered and emotions displayed, I feel like I have to walk on egg-shells if I don't want other person to feel attacked. I can't communicate if I think a person could resent others due to little things. Hence I appreciate if anger is not repressed at all times and if we are not watchful for it at all times.

[MidnightWilderness]

Alphas aren’t really babies. Everyone of any type has to get tough. It seems to me that Alpha and Gamma’s edge/harshness is more internal, and Beta’s/Delta’s more external. Maybe aristocratic types guard walls between themselves and others, while democratic types keep their weapons closer to the heart.

I’m not sure that quadra opposition means anything significant in terms of causing conflict or whatever. I’m also not sure that Gammas are more sadistic on average than, say, Betas, whom good Socionicists know are the ultimate source of evil in this world. But to the extent that Alpha and Gamma morality are opposed, I think Alphas implicitly assume that no one has a right to cause trouble for others in order to satisfy their ego, while Gammas, for better or for worse, tend to consider their own actions without reference to what others think.

Fighting fire with fire here are we?

Like these interquadra fights on this forum are so petty at this point.

Of course all Alphas are either whiny babies and/or annoying caretakers that shove care down your throat.
Of course all Betas are all sadistic evil demons that cause chaos but at the same time cover up their deeds with Fe fun, and anyone who disagrees with their ways gets sent to the actual gulag.
Of course all Gammas are greedy and selfish and insensitive people who want full on capitalism and spend all their time thinking about money.
Of course all Deltas want to turn society into a boring Te/Fi moralistic and efficient hellhole and send everyone who disagrees to the nice and pleasant Delta Gulag rehabilitation center.

We are all either stupid and ignorant and/or immoral and sadistic.

All the great Socionists, they all wrote something similar to that effect.

[jason_m]

Relations are never going to be perfect cause, well......who has met the the perfect person? lol

If you seem to be always having bad relations with others, then there are three possibilities: its the environment, it's you, or it's both. A lot of people don't realize how impactful the environment can sniffle us if we are in the wrong environment. I don't believe that we attract a 'certain' type of people at this point in life. More so, we accept what we think is 'acceptable'. If your in a shitty environment and you have been beaten down, your more likely to accept shit. If you are in a good environment, less so.

However, if your always having issues with everyone, you gotta look at yourself regardless the type. Gotta sit down and look at the mirror awhile and be honest about your own stuff. Sometimes, were kinda the crappy person. Good thing is that can change with time and effort but, it is a serious pill to swallow.

Maybe it's just both. Crappy environment with crappy people and ourselves not being the healthiest. No types or person is always going to get along. Hell, I don't always get along with everyone. Most people really don't think about actions or introspect on their actions or beliefs too much, it's just their own environment and experiences growing up and different quadrant values. You would be surprised about how many people project stuff, myself included.

That's just my take.

It's not usually someone Fe that bothers me, so that should be a relief to you. I think it's a crappy environment and crappy people. My environment was bad growing up, but it has taken on a new level as of late. People not very good either. My brother's type has switched from what was IEE to me to now LIE or maybe even ESI. Maybe the whole situation is problematic...

[peteronfireee2]

which types disguise animosity behind casual, intentionally vague remarks, cowardnonymously???

[MissDucki]

It's not usually someone Fe that bothers me, so that should be a relief to you. I think it's a crappy environment and crappy people. My environment was bad growing up, but it has taken on a new level as of late. People not very good either. My brother's type has switched from what was IEE to me to now LIE or maybe even ESI. Maybe the whole situation is problematic...

Well, either way, I do hope it gets better soon! Shitty environments and people take the life out of you. I just got out of a toxic work environment about a month ago and it did not bring out my best side so say the least It got worse for months and it kept going down hill until I broke and quit. Now I have a new job and I haven't felt this good in a very long time and hopeful! I know family is a different situation (especially if they are on a different feeling/thinking axis) but, I do hope the situation becomes less problematic and more positive soon!

[Poptart]

which types disguise animosity behind casual, intentionally vague remarks, cowardnonymously???

This is such a specific question. Are you sure that you’re referring to a type and not a particular person?

[jason_m]

which types disguise animosity behind casual, intentionally vague remarks, cowardnonymously???

If it's me, it's mainly because the other side just belts out expletives non-stop, so I just fake being accommodating because I simply don't want to deal with it... And then it's my side's fault for 'hiding my animosity,' when all the animosity is just purely about the anger they display that they don't even feel guilty about for a second...

Really... There is no animosity for most of these people from me other than the anger they display.

[peteronfireee2]

This is such a specific question. Are you sure that you’re referring to a type and not a particular person?

haha, u tell me

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Of course all Alphas are either whiny babies and/or annoying caretakers that shove care down your throat.

Of course all Betas are all sadistic evil demons that cause chaos but at the same time cover up their deeds with Fe fun, and anyone who disagrees with their ways gets sent to the actual gulag.
Of course all Gammas are greedy and selfish and insensitive people who want full on capitalism and spend all their time thinking about money.
Of course all Deltas want to turn society into a boring Te/Fi moralistic and efficient hellhole and send everyone who disagrees to the nice and pleasant Delta Gulag rehabilitation center.

I know you're being tongue and cheek and all but people often really do act in alignment with their negative quadra stereotypes a lot - that's where all those negative stereotypes come from. =/ The 'worst parts' of the quadra come to play more when individuals are stressed or experienced trauma I think. Villains are just victims turned inside out, in a sense. Like acting like a demon or vampire is a response to stress and trauma - a very 'teenage one' but it's Beta , the 'teenage' quadra- so it makes sense. Putting people into Gestapo-like camps for not being perfectly Fi moral is something real life Deltas do actually do a lot in the real world- perhaps a stress response because they progress to Alpha and want the real world to be more 'innocent' then it is capable of being. Gammas do often narcissistically rant about how capitalism is good, etc.

[MidnightWilderness]

I know you're being tongue and cheek and all but people often really do act in alignment with their negative stereotypes a lot - that's where all those negative stereotypes come from. =/ The 'worst parts' of the quadra come to play more when individuals are stressed or experienced trauma I think. Villains are just victims turned inside out, in a sense. Like acting like a demon or vampire is a response to stress and trauma - a very 'teenage one' but it's Beta , the 'teenage' quadra- so it makes sense. Putting people into Gustapo-like camps is something real life Deltas do actually do a lot in the world- perhaps a stress response because they progress to Alpha and want the real world to be more 'innocent' then it is capable of being. Gammas do often narcissistically rant about how capitalism is good, etc.

When we become stressed we bring out all the bad stuff we locked away deep inside of ourselves, which brings out the negative parts of our cognition. Some people can deal with it better than others. Socionics stereotypes exist for a reason, because another man's angel is another man's devil. That's kind of how ITRs work. It's a very exaggerated though, like, how would you put it, a campy gay drag race? No person is always acting negative or positive, it's more like the world is bittersweet. (Just my philosophy though)

I just think all these Quadra flame wars are repeating the same old stuff, and everyone is trying to act like their Quadra is more righteous or better than another Quadra, some people use more subtle language while others openly declare hatred. The nice, normal people are being put down by the big bad bullies and then the bullies fight. Stigmatizing whole Quadras or types and also failing to see the positives is never a good thing.

[FreelancePoliceman]

which types disguise animosity behind casual, intentionally vague remarks, cowardnonymously???

Apparently LSI.

[peteronfireee2]

Apparently LSI.

a wheelchair policeman is ur profile pic

[FreelancePoliceman]

@MidnightWilderness — I was joking when talking about Betas if that wasn’t clear. It’s hard for me to tell if you’re joking as well. Saying something like “Betas are the source of all evil” obviously wasn’t meant to be taken seriously; I was trying to make fun of the stereotype, if that wasn’t clear.

[MidnightWilderness]

@MidnightWilderness — I was joking when talking about Betas if that wasn’t clear. It’s hard for me to tell if you’re joking as well. Saying something like “Betas are the source of all evil” obviously wasn’t meant to be taken seriously; I was trying to make fun of the stereotype, if that wasn’t clear.

Oh, okay

"But to the extent that Alpha and Gamma morality are opposed, I think Alphas implicitly assume that no one has a right to cause trouble for others in order to satisfy their ego, while Gammas, for better or for worse, tend to consider their own actions without reference to what others think."

This was also probably taken badly as well, because it seems to imply that Alphas are less egotistical than Gammas, and that Gammas don't think about others before they act.

Internet sarcasm is somewhat hard to get right, you have to be less subtle than in a normal conversation.

[FreelancePoliceman]

@MidnightWilderness

I’ll try, lol. But in general I think most of what I say is at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek, if that helps.

Re. Alphas/Gammas, I don’t necessarily mean one approach is better than the other. Alphas are more likely to go along with the crowd, and Gammas to do what they want without regard for others. So both these approaches can be bad when taken to extremes. But there are also good things about each approach too, I think: with Alphas there’s a strong respect for fairness and an unwillingness to treat people unfairly, and with Gammas there’s a general drive for self-determination. The introverted ones seem to think thoroughly about the principles they live by, and the extraverted ones, if less thoughtful about that sort of thing themselves, seem to respect/value personal discipline/living by principle, especially of the kind their duals emphasize.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

@MissDucki

Yeah that's very wise. /pets his lookalike. In one environment I was the king, the hero, looked up to , exalted, respected- treated with dignity - and even challenged in appropriate ways. In another environment I was abused, not respected, not listened to, humiliated, treated unkindly - even hated and reviled etc.

I'm not a God- I'm not nothing either, in reality I'm a complicated mess inbetween- but Fi treats people in accordance to what it vibes within the person. So naturally it's your savior as much as it is your nightmare at times. Follow the Golden Fi and be around people who bring out the best in you. ((easier said than done, but it's good self help-y advice)) So people can be trapped into thinking there is external things they could perhaps change to be different- but it's Fi, and doesn't really work like that. You might be around people who just don't like you, sweetie. Yet if people are pointing things out you're doing wrong in multiple environments, that probably has truth to it. If your own Fi respects them then probably take the criticism seriously and not narcissistically, as it's helpful for your benefit.

This is the Fi of the world really- perhaps creating some Fe interplay but it's really the Fi doing it even if you're not valuing it. Shit if you are ILE with Fi polr this makes even more sense to me now lol.

[Tarnished]

The problem I have with some Fe (alpha mainly) value type that they require me to sacrifice something from my (time, money ...ect) for the group, for society, or for the greatest good... whatever. Every selfish acts should be prevent. And I was like... whatever I do, selfish or not, as long as it doesn't bring any direct harm to you, is not your business.

Exp:
An ESE told me I should help others (charitable works), bla bla bla (talk too much)

And I said: "Ok, but I only help someone who I feel interest in, and I will use my own method to help" (which also mean I won't help those poor people I don't feel interest, and also those who don't like my method. ).

And the ESE: "you don't help people that way, it's so wrooooong bla bla"

Me: "Like I care... if it's wrong or not, lol". (I could reason with this guy more about this, but the way he talk just annoys me, so I mock him instead)

And that ESE guy went wild.


We both can do good things, but we also don't agree with each other. Actually I don't care about what they do, they are the one who feel annoy and disagree with me first.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Both Alphas and Deltas are moralizers like that. Beta/Gammas like to fight a lot (often amongst ourselves!) cuz of the valued Se and Alpha/Deltas enjoy moralizing. Ni polrs are especially fascinated with religion I've noticed. I noticed I too am chastised by Alphas for mostly little things- they usually have empathy for me and vice-versa but yeah if something is not perfect goody two shoes Power Rangers Fe it tends to really upset them. ILE/a few LII straight men pretend to be tough, world-wise and gritty- and they are in many ways, don't get me wrong- but even they will just want Fe MegaZord to sweep in and save the day in the end.

[Stray Cat]

I don't buy into bad relations, I buy into how badly folks handle individual relations.

EII are my conflict. They're cool, smart & converse well. An EII won't be my running buddy. It's better for the both of us to simply shoot shit once & a while & that's it.

[Baqer]

I don't buy into bad relations, I buy into how badly folks handle individual relations.

EII are my conflict. They're cool, smart & converse well. An EII won't be my running buddy. It's better for the both of us to simply shoot shit once & a while & that's it.

Bad relations, or just ITR in general, only really come into play when close to people and people act more "natural" and are more open. Anyone can casually get along with anyone of any type, the problem is when you're close enough for things to start conflicting. In something like a supervisory relationship(at least from what I've noticed between ILE-EII), the supervisor basically has control over how much they bash the supervisee. While in the beginning they might be more polite trying to help the supervisee, over time, the supervisor will become fed up with too much contact and seeing the supervisee fail miserably at their POLR, and what makes it even worse is the fact that the supervisee will most likely fail to improve in any real way a vast majority of the time, causing both sides to get fed up and generally annoyed. For conflict, I'd assume it'd be the same thing, just with both sides criticizing the other, so that it takes both of them to hold back instead of just one. Something like Super-ego or Extinguishment would mostly be bad due to each side having nothing in common and nothing complementary, so they feel like they aren't really getting or giving anything from each other.

[Baqer]

Both Alphas and Deltas are moralizers like that. Beta/Gammas like to fight a lot (often amongst ourselves!) cuz of the valued Se and Alpha/Deltas enjoy moralizing. Ni polrs are especially fascinated with religion I've noticed. I noticed I too am chastised by Alphas for mostly little things- they usually have empathy for me and vice-versa but yeah if something is not perfect goody two shoes Power Rangers Fe it tends to really upset them. ILE/a few LII straight men pretend to be tough, world-wise and gritty- and they are in many ways, don't get me wrong- but even they will just want Fe MegaZord to sweep in and save the day in the end.

Moralizing alphas? I can't speak for all alphas, but I can say at least for myself and I'd assume most SF alphas are the opposite of moralizing.

[Stray Cat]

Bad relations, or just ITR in general, only really come into play when close to people and people act more "natural" and are more open. Anyone can casually get along with anyone of any type, the problem is when you're close enough for things to start conflicting. In something like a supervisory relationship(at least from what I've noticed between ILE-EII), the supervisor basically has control over how much they bash the supervisee. While in the beginning they might be more polite trying to help the supervisee, over time, the supervisor will become fed up with too much contact and seeing the supervisee fail miserably at their POLR, and what makes it even worse is the fact that the supervisee will most likely fail to improve in any real way a vast majority of the time, causing both sides to get fed up and generally annoyed. For conflict, I'd assume it'd be the same thing, just with both sides criticizing the other, so that it takes both of them to hold back instead of just one. Something like Super-ego or Extinguishment would mostly be bad due to each side having nothing in common and nothing complementary, so they feel like they aren't really getting or giving anything from each other.

Kinda agree.

Although, EIIs do value Te. When EII are "forced" to engage their Te, the SLE sorta says, "Cool, man"

Te & Se are bulls in a China shop functions. The SLE/EII conflict relation have interesting opinions cause of those functions

Moralizing alphas? I can't speak for all alphas, but I can say at least for myself and I'd assume most SF alphas are the opposite of moralizing.

@BandD said something interesting.

The rational alphas def moralize irrational betas for the ruthlessness of Se. IEI & SLE can be Bonnie & Clyde. Rational alphas, in particular, will moralize the SLE/IEI dyad for what they consider to be mean behavior

[Rebelondeck]

Personal baggage is the destroyer of relationships; type can exacerbate a rift but won't usually be the root cause. There are angels and demons of every type and it's often difficult to distinguish between the two.

a.k.a. I/O

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Everybody moralizes to me, just ethical types have more finesse with it probably or something? Even thinking type SLEs realize some things are immorally wrong - even tho I'm sure people think Beta STs are much more likely to be immoral. ((don't think that's true- but Fi polr/Se ego + immoral person it's going to seem more obvious))

IEI & SLE can be Bonnie & Clyde.

I've liked bad boy criminals more than cops because one is indeed a monster, but the other one is a bigger monster pretending to be more righteous and that's usually always more dangerous. ((although Teal Swan needs to stop using this thing as the perfect excuse to be a Saturday Day Morning cartoon villain)) And a monster who is given so much Te authority. That's changing now though of course with the George Floyd case. It's even cooler to be anti-authority now as even the most average Karen is waking up to the reality that most cops are definitely not these perfect moral saints Republican soccer moms want them to be. They're not God's Seraphim Angels, they are just people susceptible to being corrupted and fallen as anybody else.

To be fair ((and I'm IEI so I need to be goody two shoes fair)) I met a LSI police officer the other day and I think we actually ended up liking each other and finding the other friendly and even 'good enough.' Because nobody is really Good, if they were- they'd be Heaven, instead of Earth (the middle realm) *glares at Teal Swan so she doesn't take that out of context. Again.*

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I just think all these Quadra flame wars are repeating the same old stuff, and everyone is trying to act like their Quadra is more righteous or better than another Quadra, some people use more subtle language while others openly declare hatred. The nice, normal people are being put down by the big bad bullies and then the bullies fight. Stigmatizing whole Quadras or types and also failing to see the positives is never a good thing.

Agree. <3 "You're virtue signaling" is often just another form of virtue signaling.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

This is an old thread to resurrect but I see it working the opposite way too.

Maybe some people are just obnoxious assholes and it doesn't require a certain PoLr function to be one.

"I can't be an ethical type I'm too rude"

There are plenty of those around...

We've all met an obnoxious Fe user who seems to say shady rude shit all the time and seems to have no self awareness.

Or perhaps a judgemental Fi user who seems to see the problems of everyone around them but never themselves.

Strong ethics don't guarantee good relations IME.

[memory]

"the problem in my relationships is always the other person"

[Grendel]

pingas