Someone Explain This...

[jason_m]

My mother is ISTJ and gets all of her information from three places: 1) Fox News, 2) Eternal Word Television Network, and 3) various alternative health resources. However, she seems to be always right. For instance, just recently, because of all the negative media on Fox News, she was advising me not to get a COVID vaccine. I got the vaccine, got really sick, and - whoops - once again, she was right.

I, however, try to reason in a scientific way: in this case, my reasoning is as follows:

The number of cases of COVID are dwindling.
It is probably because of the vaccine.
The vaccine is therefore working.
However, there are still active COVID cases out there.
Therefore, since the vaccine seems to be working, and since there are still active cases, to err on the safe side, I should still get the vaccine.

Then we look at the overall results:
My reasoning: 0
Fox News: +1000

I mean she is ISTJ, but can somebody explain how somebody who tries to reason in a logical way is always wrong, and somebody whose information sources are garbage is always right...

(This is not about socionics - period, unless that explains this somehow...)

[peteronfireee2]

i usually wait until CNN feeds me.

takes like 2 mins scrollin down meh facebook

i then proclaim the news like they r gospel since it's never watered down/narrative material. i

it is truth bruh

i like to LARP and raise my shieldz and daggaz on deh forumz

[jason_m]

i usually wait until CNN feeds me. takes like 2 mins scrollin down meh facebook

i then proclaim the news like they r gospel since it's never watered down/narrative material. it is truth bro

I don't know if you're being sarcastic , but CNN is just as bad as Fox News to me. I think both channels are just propaganda...

[peteronfireee2]

I don't know if you're being sarcastic , but CNN is just as bad as Fox News to me. I think both channels are just propaganda...

i don't really watch the news

[jason_m]

i don't really watch the news

Okay...

[Adam Strange]

I don't know if you're being sarcastic , but CNN is just as bad as Fox News to me. I think both channels are just propaganda...

You seem to be having trouble with assessments. If a mosquito bites you and a leopard eats your face and your family, are they equally as bad?

But that's OK. Maybe I can sell you some stuff you don't need, or get you to shrug when I steal the pension fund because you've been fed a steady diet of minor outrages.

[jason_m]

I'll be honest: it's because of the responses I am getting that I wonder if I am an ethical type... Fair and square here... I'm almost done with the theory now...

[Adam Strange]

My mother is ISTJ and gets all of her information from three places: 1) Fox News, 2) Eternal Word Television Network, and 3) various alternative health resources. However, she seems to be always right. For instance, just recently, because of all the negative media on Fox News, she was advising me not to get a COVID vaccine. I got the vaccine, got really sick, and - whoops - once again, she was right.

I, however, try to reason in a scientific way: in this case, my reasoning is as follows:

The number of cases of COVID are dwindling.
It is probably because of the vaccine.
The vaccine is therefore working.
However, there are still active COVID cases out there.
Therefore, since the vaccine seems to be working, and since there are still active cases, to err on the safe side, I should still get the vaccine.

Then we look at the overall results:
My reasoning: 0
Fox News: +1000

I mean she is ISTJ, but can somebody explain how somebody who tries to reason in a logical way is always wrong, and somebody whose information sources are garbage is always right...

(This is not about socionics - period, unless that explains this somehow...)

I dunno. Maybe you should talk to Ben Carson, or Ron Wright, or Jerry Relph about this.

Oh, wait. You can't, because they are all dead Republican vaccine deniers who died from COVID.

So I guess I'll have to Google that for you: https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-rele...h-numbers.html

@jason_m, one thing you should understand is that about 99% of the population starts out with their minds already made up, and then looks for confirmation of their biases. Trying to get to a scientific conclusion is very difficult and is not a natural part of human nature. The scientific method was only recently discovered. The fact that we're now living past the age of 24 shows that it works. But an evidence-based approach to life hasn't yet reached most news services, and they will tell you whatever their sponsors want you to hear.

[jason_m]

I dunno. Maybe you should talk to Ben Carson, or Ron Wright, or Jerry Relph about this.

Oh, wait. You can't, because they are all dead Republican vaccine deniers who died from COVID.

So I guess I'll have to Google that for you: https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-rele...h-numbers.html

@jason_m, one thing you should understand is that about 99% of the population starts out with their minds already made up, and then looks for confirmation of their biases. Trying to get to a scientific conclusion is very difficult and is not a natural part of human nature. The scientific method was only recently discovered. The fact that we're now living past the age of 24 shows that it works. But an evidence-based approach to life hasn't yet reached most news services, and they will tell you whatever their sponsors want you to hear.

I just googled the damn chart and it showed that the number of cases has recently been dwindling. I concluded from that chart that this is because of the vaccine. The rest of the reasoning just followed from those premises. What is wrong with this line of reasoning?

[jason_m]

Is Google exaggerating their numbers. Is that what you are claiming?

[Adam Strange]

You're reasoning about this is perfect. Nothing wrong with it at all. It's your belief that "because your mother is a stopped clock and is right twice a day, therefore she's right about everything" that I'd watch out for.

It reminds me of an IEI who said "It's 76 degrees outside and I just saw a license plate that had 76 in the number so I'm going to bet my paycheck on the lottery and put everything on 76. The cosmos is telling me something."

No, the cosmos is not telling her anything. She's believing what she wants to believe.

Here's some data: https://ballotpedia.org/Government_o...mic,_2020-2021

Also, this guy is an ILI and he's both fearful of the virus and is very fact-based. He has posted a lot on COVID, if you look in his archives.

I don't always agree with his conclusions, but I think he's a very reasonable guy. https://jabberwocking.com/coronaviru...une-20-update/

[jason_m]

You're reasoning about this is perfect. Nothing wrong with it at all. It's your belief that "because your mother is a stopped clock and is right twice a day that she's right about everything" that I'd watch out for.

It reminds me of an IEI who said "It's 76 degrees outside and I just saw a license plate that had 76 in the number so I'm going to bet my paycheck on the lottery and put everything on 76. The cosmos is telling me something."

No, the cosmos is not telling her anything. She's believing what she wants to believe.

She is not right about everything, but more often than me - by a wide margin. I cannot record every example, obviously. At first, I just took it for granted. Then I considered her sources of her information, and it was perplexing, so I came to the forum for an answer. "Someone please enlighten me", type of thing. That was all I wanted... Then people took it personally and it was frustrating...

[Adam Strange]

I wouldn't doubt myself so much if I were you. Surveys show that the more a person watches Fox News, the less correct they are about things.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2...h=104238d612ab

https://www.businessinsider.com/stud...-at-all-2012-5

https://www.psypost.org/2020/07/cons...-society-57499

https://trofire.com/2020/08/08/anoth...es-you-stupid/


Don't mistake being certain about something for being right about it. And don't think that just because a few examples go against you, that you're wrong about everything.

Once, when I was about 27, I got screwed over by this bastard who became a millionaire by screwing other people people over. I later said to my wife, "It seems like you have to be a rat in order to win in this world."
She told me that you DON'T have to be a bad person in order to get ahead. And she was right. That guy died from cancer a few years later, and I now have more money than he did. And I've tried really hard to be a good man. She helped convince me. Thank god she was there in my moment of doubt.

[jason_m]

You're reasoning about this is perfect. Nothing wrong with it at all. It's your belief that "because your mother is a stopped clock and is right twice a day that she's right about everything" that I'd watch out for.

It reminds me of an IEI who said "It's 76 degrees outside and I just saw a license plate that had 76 in the number so I'm going to bet my paycheck on the lottery and put everything on 76. The cosmos is telling me something."

No, the cosmos is not telling her anything. She's believing what she wants to believe.

I mean maybe there is a real world explanation for this. Not something stupid, like I keep worrying about. That's what I want.

[Adam Strange]

I mean maybe there is a real world explanation for this. Not something stupid, like I keep worrying about. That's what I want.

It's called "magical thinking" vs "the scientific method." Again, you can ask Ben Carson if he knows the difference.

[jason_m]

I wouldn't doubt myself so much if I were you. Surveys show that the more a person watches Fox News, the less correct they are about things.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2...h=104238d612ab

https://www.businessinsider.com/stud...-at-all-2012-5

https://www.psypost.org/2020/07/cons...-society-57499

https://trofire.com/2020/08/08/anoth...es-you-stupid/


Don't mistake being certain about something for being right about it. And don't think that just because a few examples go against you, that you're wrong about everything.

Once, when I was about 27, I got screwed over by this bastard who became a millionaire by screwing other people people over. I later said to my wife, "It seems like you have to be a rat in order to win in this world."
She told me that you DON'T have to be a bad person in order to get ahead. And she was right. That guy died from cancer a few years later, and I now have more money than he did. And I've tried really hard to be a good man. She helped convince me. Thank god she was there in my moment of doubt.

Fox News is a great source of political information. I simply do not watch the channel for news and current events...

The bad man who did that to you got what was coming. My dad is actually an ethical type and in business, and I've seen him screwed over so many times that I cannot describe. It therefore bothers me...

[jason_m]

Fox News is a great source of political information. I simply do not watch the channel for news and current events...

The bad man who did that to you got what was coming. My dad is actually an ethical type and in business, and I've seen him screwed over so many times that I cannot describe. It therefore bothers me...

They are not usually Te egos either. You'd be surprised about the variety of people who can be in business (except that you are a business man, and you should know). There is one man who is SEI who he is working on a case with, and he keeps bringing him gifts - things like food. I just know what this means...

But he is a very merciful man. He just cannot put his foot down and send someone to collections...

[Singu]

Does she actually know how vaccines work? I don't see any reason to be against vaccines if you knew how it worked. The best criticism that you can come up with might be how vaccines are administered or something like that.

I doubt that showing more "evidence" or "numbers" or "sources" would work. If you understood how vaccines worked, then you don't have to believe in either Fox News nor CNN. You can just believe in your own reasoning (but some would say that's "evil" and should always believe in "evidence" or "data" instead). If your reasoning is that putting some foreign substances in your own body is somehow creepy, then you're going to believe in that fear. But if you knew how vaccines worked, then it would make perfect sense.

[timber]

Its not complicated:

Covid is going away because the vaccines are keeping people asymptomatic and also lessening infection rates.

HOWEVER,

the vaccines are problematic and imperfect in and of themselves. It has a lot to do with the nature of that spike protein for one, there is so much un-known about it and also, it might turn out to be the most damaging portion of the virus itself, which is part of why having spike proteins produced in your body is problematic for the same reason they are problematic on the virus envelope.

Two, there are issues with cell mediated immunity and vaccine immunity. If you have ever taken first year biology, they go over immunity briefly.

Basically it might be shown that natural immunity from a cleared infection might be broadly neutralizing if you catch covid, or a variant a second time. If you had the vaccine, because of feed back loop mechanisms, broadly active immune cells are not produced. Therefore, the vaccine although effective in neutralizing an initial infection's symptoms, might not be effective AS A VACCINE against future infections. It's also not a vaccine, they are modified prophylactic gene therapies. This could lead to requiring booster shots for an unseen amount of time, which means pharmaceutical companies are responsible for allowing society to function normally, which is not an optimal situation.

Third, every single past mRNA vaccine trials all end up in the same types of failures: antibody dependent enhancement. This is why none of them have made it past clinical trials. The reason moderna, pfizer, AstraZeneca, are being injected into arms right now is because its Emergency Use. You are the guinea pig, and that is not an embellishment phrase. I think the big takeaway here to understand is that it is a War time measure. Like we in war right now, biological warfare. Covid was once originally a natural coronavirus, that got stuck with HIV spike proteins that link up with ACE2 and GP120, as well as having a furan cleavage site, as well as using Line1 reverse transcriptase to hide out in your cell, which no other coronavirus in its family lines has. However, MERS has a cleavage site, but the cleavage site in covid uses a codon sequence that is bread and butter of researching virologists when they try to make them more infectious. The codons are the same as the ones in people. This is all on published record for over a year now. That Fox news is breaking the story is a bit of misnomer. They are not breaking any news, they are just allowing some to get out, finally. CNN is the same, but with a nice-nice twist.

Basically the vaccines work, they kinda suck cause there is lots of bad, the bad can't be reported on because North Americans have black and white binary type thinking, they can't accept both good and bad at the same time, or their heads will explode. Everything over there is evil, and therefore I reject it not by merit, but by valued virtue. Feed me feed me feed me.

[aixelsyd]

Depends on what one considers "right." For instance, the vaccine is most likely going to make people feel sick (different from being positive with the virus), but that is the way the immune system works. I have a friend who won't take flu shots because he got really sick from it, but that is a normal side-effect of the body's immune system working. This does not discount those who do get very sick from vaccines where the illness requires treatment, but this is pretty rare.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It's everybody's first time taking the vaccine for the most part and so they are going to have side effects. And it's the very first vaccine, it will probably get better as they perfect the formula over the years or whatever. I remember the first time I took a flu shot, I felt really weird. I got really dizzy in the shower once almost like I had the flu itself. The flu shot I took the following year was like smooth sailing though. A vaccine is just a deactivated version of the virus in your body to trick your immune system in building resistance to it so if the real thing comes along, your body has a much better chance at fighting it.

People are rightfully mistrustful of the government shoving it down their throats because while they might be right about this, but they've been wrong and hateful about so many other things before so I kinda don't blame them for being skeptical of it and questioning some authority's intentions. And nobody really likes some Overlord that acts like the Time Variance Authority on Marvel being condescending to them and telling them what to do 24/7. Being caught up in the system before- I know first hand just how misguided and wrong and arrogant some of those people can be. Thinking they are right when they are so wrong- but that does go both ways. I wouldn't make a leap to outright deny about COVID though or minimize the serious risks it has. I almost died from just the baby regular flu and so viruses aren't really something to be taken lightly.

[jason_m]

It's called "magical thinking" vs "the scientific method." Again, you can ask Ben Carson if he knows the difference.

Magical thinking? I'm looking for an answer that doesn't presupposes this. But your answer is just a blatant ad hominem, so I won't say anymore... I used to assume that logical types don't stoop to such things. Now I just assume that this is part of the social milieu of this theory...

[Singu]

HOWEVER,

the vaccines are problematic and imperfect in and of themselves. It has a lot to do with the nature of that spike protein for one, there is so much un-known about it and also, it might turn out to be the most damaging portion of the virus itself, which is part of why having spike proteins produced in your body is problematic for the same reason they are problematic on the virus envelope.

Why? Most of the COVID vaccines are the new mRNA vaccines (versus the conventional vaccines that use inactivated viruses), and the whole point of sending mRNA to your body into producing spike proteins (the protein on the surface of the COVID virus) is so that your immune system can create antibodies to get rid of the spike proteins. So the spike proteins should disappear over time.

I mean if your immune system is already defective then it might be dangerous, but that person is even more fucked if he/she gets infected with a live virus. Obviously getting infected with a live COVID virus is much more dangerous than getting an mRNA vaccine.

Basically it might be shown that natural immunity from a cleared infection might be broadly neutralizing if you catch covid, or a variant a second time. If you had the vaccine, because of feed back loop mechanisms, broadly active immune cells are not produced. Therefore, the vaccine although effective in neutralizing an initial infection's symptoms, might not be effective AS A VACCINE against future infections. It's also not a vaccine, they are modified prophylactic gene therapies. This could lead to requiring booster shots for an unseen amount of time, which means pharmaceutical companies are responsible for allowing society to function normally, which is not an optimal situation.

What? Of course that the vaccine is a "feedback loop mechanism", and that innate immune cells are not produced by it. What other protections against viruses do you suggest?

It's not a "gene therapy" because it doesn't modify the genes. It's a vaccine, because the whole point of it is to get the immune system into triggering an immune response. However you might have to modify your genes if you want your body to produce more innate immune cells or something.

Third, every single past mRNA vaccine trials all end up in the same types of failures: antibody dependent enhancement. This is why none of them have made it past clinical trials. The reason moderna, pfizer, AstraZeneca, are being injected into arms right now is because its Emergency Use. You are the guinea pig, and that is not an embellishment phrase. I think the big takeaway here to understand is that it is a War time measure. Like we in war right now, biological warfare. Covid was once originally a natural coronavirus, that got stuck with HIV spike proteins that link up with ACE2 and GP120, as well as having a furan cleavage site, as well as using Line1 reverse transcriptase to hide out in your cell, which no other coronavirus in its family lines has. However, MERS has a cleavage site, but the cleavage site in covid uses a codon sequence that is bread and butter of researching virologists when they try to make them more infectious. The codons are the same as the ones in people. This is all on published record for over a year now. That Fox news is breaking the story is a bit of misnomer. They are not breaking any news, they are just allowing some to get out, finally. CNN is the same, but with a nice-nice twist.

It seems that the mRNA vaccines were decades in the making. They are new, but it seems that they're more promising and are easier and require shorter amount of time to produce. The only downside is that they require the vaccines to be stored in very low temperatures.

It seems that Chinese COVID vaccines are conventional vaccines and not mRNA vaccines. If you are concerned about mRNA vaccines, then you're free to take Chinese vaccines.

[Sah Kel Plaisir]

It's just introverted thinking, analyzing correlations and deducing answers from these analyzes. Reading between the lines. Look : https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...of-information

[squark]

My mother is ISTJ and gets all of her information from three places: 1) Fox News, 2) Eternal Word Television Network, and 3) various alternative health resources. However, she seems to be always right. For instance, just recently, because of all the negative media on Fox News, she was advising me not to get a COVID vaccine. I got the vaccine, got really sick, and - whoops - once again, she was right.

I, however, try to reason in a scientific way: in this case, my reasoning is as follows:

The number of cases of COVID are dwindling.
It is probably because of the vaccine.
The vaccine is therefore working.
However, there are still active COVID cases out there.
Therefore, since the vaccine seems to be working, and since there are still active cases, to err on the safe side, I should still get the vaccine.

Then we look at the overall results:
My reasoning: 0
Fox News: +1000

I mean she is ISTJ, but can somebody explain how somebody who tries to reason in a logical way is always wrong, and somebody whose information sources are garbage is always right...

(This is not about socionics - period, unless that explains this somehow...)

Sources matter less than your ability to evaluate those sources and pull fact from fiction.

and

Your thinking isn't scientific. It's deductive. And whether or not the covid vaccines work has nothing to do with how sick you felt afterwards. They can both work, and make you sick at the same time. I personally told my kids not to get the vaccines because they are still in the experimental stage and haven't been around long enough to evaluate their long-term effects and safety. I didn't want them to be guinea pigs. Based on how they work, I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see an uptick in autoimmune disease in the next few years. My oldest son ignored me, so hopefully it'll all be fine.

[xerx]

My mother is ISTJ and gets all of her information from three places: 1) Fox News, 2) Eternal Word Television Network, and 3) various alternative health resources. However, she seems to be always right.

Was she also right about the presence of WMD's in Iraq?

[The Reality Denialist]

I took it as sons as I could because I was more afraid of COVID than being sick from vaccines due to my health records around respiratory system (narrow windpipe and aggressive coughs)

[AWellArmedCat]

@jason_m I don't understand your reasoning at all. How was your mom right about anything? She advised you not to get a vaccine, then you got it and you got sick, but that doesn't make her right about the vaccine and it's effectiveness with regards to the general world population. Neither you nor her could have known at all what sort of side effects it might have had on your unique body. Any medical treatment at all will carry some risk of adverse side effects, but the point of the treatment is that it will increase your odds of a positive outcome vs doing nothing. Just because you happened to have a negative reaction to the virus, that really carries very little weight in the grand scheme of things, and it certainly doesn't vindicate Fox News in any way. I don't think there's anything to be explained here. If the vaccine caused you such a negative reaction then I would be concerned that the actual virus itself could've been especially damaging to your body, in which case the vaccine was definitely the better option. There's really no telling if that would've been the case or not though. I just mean to illustrate that I don't see how this is your mother "being right" about anything. She would be "right" if we suddenly started getting a ton of new research in suggesting that the vaccine's side effects were so bad and so frequently occurring as to make it worse than getting COVID itself. Given that we aren't seeing such research coming out of anywhere worth trusting, I think it's pretty safe to say this was just coincidental. Nonetheless, I'm sorry you got really sick. That doesn't sound like a fun time

[Lycantrope]

can somebody explain how somebody who tries to reason in a logical way is always wrong, and somebody whose information sources are garbage is always right...

1- getting sick from vaccine doesn't mean it doesn't work, it could be just a side effect.

2- your logical preference (Te or Ti) has nothing to do with intelligence. There are Te who are morons and there are Ti who are morons. You are commiting the fallacy of thinking because cases are dwindling it must be because of the vaccines, but there are too many variables to consider. No wonder you said "probably". Probably is not for sure, so your reasoning is correct but your conclusion is crazy.

3- you assume fox news is a garbage source for having a more right-wing approach and being "conspiracy like" much of the time. You can't assume that, specially when comparing to other sources that are 4x worse. But in the case of vaccine you can assume that.