Those sneaky Semi-Duals

[skosh]

I've noticed semi-duals can easily get between a dual pair. They can seem rather oblivious, unaware of what they're getting into, but self-assured enough to cause trouble. One may find themselves completely disoriented in a world where your dual appears to choose someone else over you. There's really no way to prepare for it. You can definitely handle it, but you can't really predict it. I guess my question is should a dual partner on reasonably good terms with the other fear those sneaky semi-duals? Can semi-duals really be better than your dual?

[MissDucki]

For me, no. I would rather be with an ILE then an IEE man any-day. I hung out with an IEE for a little while and it was worlds apart. I don't like Fi in a romantic partner and they can't give me the Ti that I really need. Great people to talk to, just I am not interested in them romantically. I would rather be with a mirage partner over semi-dual.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Anecdotally, I think semiduals tend to interact more, and "notice" each other more, while duals tend more to inhabit the fringes of someone's perception. For instance, I've noticed my ESE mother has many LSI friends, and they seem immediately drawn to each other in a way I've not noticed happening with any dual pair. She knows a few LIIs, but she hasn't bothered getting to know most of them, nor they her. The one exception is her LII brother, who she gets along with very well and talks to almost every day by phone.

Before I knew about Socionics, I don't think I would have really paid much attention to ESEs either; if I'd been asked what I thought about them I'd probably just say they seem nice but inhabit a different world. If someone had told me that an EIE was the ideal relation for me I'd be more inclined to believe them, because I've interacted with more of them and immediately "hit it off," where there's a little more difficulty in getting a conversation started with ESEs, I think.

[The Reality Denialist]

For me, no. I would rather be with an ILE then an IEE man any-day. I hung out with an IEE for a little while and it was worlds apart. I don't like Fi in a romantic partner and they can't give me the Ti that I really need. Great people to talk to, just I am not interested in them romantically. I would rather be with a mirage partner over semi-dual.

Yes, irrational's mirage = rational's semi dual and vice versa.

[FreelancePoliceman]

For me, no. I would rather be with an ILE then an IEE man any-day. I hung out with an IEE for a little while and it was worlds apart. I don't like Fi in a romantic partner and they can't give me the Ti that I really need. Great people to talk to, just I am not interested in them romantically. I would rather be with a mirage partner over semi-dual.

My guess is that irrational types tend to prefer mirage partners to semiduals, and rational types tend to prefer semiduals to mirage partners. I'm interested to see how that holds up.

Lol, got beaten to the punch by @BrightDemonSheep96.

[MissDucki]

Personally, I would rather have someone who has the same feeling/thinking axis rather then the same sensing/intuition axis. With SLE's I know we don't see or do things the same way but, I get how they feel and they respond well to me. I know we may not have the same end goals or perceptions, but we vibe on the same feeling wavelength and it feels good. I've mentioned before that I get along really well with SLE people. With IEE, I do like them as people and I love interacting with the Ne just, romantically I am not attracted to higher Fi users. This may be a bit blunt to say but, I feel a bit duped with semi dual. Like I get this Ne and then BAM! Fi! which I wasn't expecting. Then we gotta deal with each others polar, it can be a bit messy. They have amazing minds, just not a romantic choice.

I'm not crapping on Fi by any means. Majority of my family and majority of my close friends have been Fi users. Just as a Fe user, It's nice to be around romantically with someone with the same feeling/thinking axis.

[skosh]

Semi-dual comfort is often compared favorably to that between dual pairs. But I can't imagine why. At least for irrational semi-duals, comfort and concern is obvious, even between colleagues at work, yet those little things your dual does cannot be replicated by your semi-dual. At least not in a timely fashion. How some descriptions can recognize the incessant "alertness" between semi-duals, but then compare that favorably to comfort levels between duals is a mystery to me. In the case of rational semi-duals, they may recoil because the implementation of the other's value system is bound to be radically different from that of their dual. Yet you often hear people claim to be totally content with semi-duals as romantic partners and their duals as 'friends'.

[Stray Cat]

Apparently...

Sensing/Intuition is responsible for Erotic Attitudes
Feeling/Logic is responsible for Communication Styles

If a person consistently chooses semidual over dual, that person is mistyped, stupid or has an issue with their dual.

I have ethical issues. My Fi function is a shit show. Fi demo will do.

[PinKDiGiT18]

What a (healthy) dual has to offer you is unmatched by any other type. It seems semi-duals find each other faster than duals because of certain commonalities, but that doesn’t mean they’re more compatible.

In a semi-dual pair, each is forced to take care of some things by themselves. It fosters independence - which can be a valuable trait, but not my ideal. Beyond the initial “oooh, shiny!” attractiveness, the intruding semi-dual in the OP’s question would be hard-pressed to try to separate a dual pair that has gotten used to one another.

[Stray Cat]

The polarity which your dual uses their lead is different from the one your semidual uses.

EII tend to use Ethics of Forgiveness
ESI tend to use Ethics of Disapproval

[Rebelondeck]

Semi-duals tends to have slightly more in common than one's dual. What one desires (commonality, understanding) most often wins out over what one needs (complementary, helpfulness), and of course, the hotter one usually wins unless that person is a complete idiot. I wouldn't call such competition sneaky.

a.k.a. I/O

[skosh]

Semi-duals tends to have slightly more in common than one's dual. What one desires (commonality, understanding) most often wins out over what one needs (complementary, helpfulness), and of course, the hotter one usually wins unless that person is a complete idiot. I wouldn't call such competition sneaky.

a.k.a. I/O

Semi-duals are compelling because they meet your basic needs while sharing those commonalities. They can be very hard to resist. What's sneaky is their entering a space of duality they have no business entering. They masquerade as meeting those basic needs to give you the familiarity your dual provides you. This may even become an obsession between semi-duals, which perhaps explains why they often view each other as arrogant and/or condescending.

[Adam Strange]

My LII sister's first love was an EIE guy who had a small plane and was trying to, and later did, become a commercial pilot. They were together for a few years and are still friends, but she's now married to an LSE and he's divorced and pining for her. She told me that he recently sent her pictures of himself unclothed.
I said "What? Who does that? Jesus, the guy must be in his fifties now, and that can't look good."
She laughed. "Right. I think he wants to get back together again." She paused. "He was the one person who I thought really understood me, but he was terrible in bed. And if we ever tried to live together, we'd kill each other." (Infantile-Victim.)
"So what did you do? Did you reply?"
She laughed like I was crazy. "No."

I was on the beach this morning and talked to a couple of twenty-somethings who were obviously together. An LII male and a pretty EIE female. Did I tell them anything about their future? No.

I did tell my ILI buddy about them. He said "Youth is when you make your mistakes!"
In other words, in ILI fashion, "Who gives a fuck? Kill them all and let God sort them out."

[FreelancePoliceman]

I was on the beach this morning and talked to a couple of twenty-somethings who were obviously together. An LII male and a pretty EIE female. Did I tell them anything about their future? No.

Your idea is that any relationship but duality is doomed to failure?

[Stray Cat]

Semi-duals tends to have slightly more in common than one's dual. What one desires (commonality, understanding) most often wins out over what one needs (complementary, helpfulness), and of course, the hotter one usually wins unless that person is a complete idiot. I wouldn't call such competition sneaky.

a.k.a. I/O

Semi-duals are compelling because they meet your basic needs while sharing those commonalities. They can be very hard to resist. What's sneaky is their entering a space of duality they have no business entering. They masquerade as meeting those basic needs to give you the familiarity your dual provides you. This may even become an obsession between semi-duals, which perhaps explains why they often view each other as arrogant and/or condescending.

If you have, strangely, complimented your semi-dual's lead they may then pressure you to compliment their creative. In that scenario, semiduals annoy.

I might be wrong but complimenting your semi dual's creative requires you to use your polr..

[Adam Strange]

Your idea is that any relationship but duality is doomed to failure?

No, that isn't my idea. But I believe that any relationship outside of Duality is sub-optimal. Which is not to say that all Dual relationships are optimal. Some people are very screwed up, and there can be huge mismatches in intelligence, backgrounds, expectations, mental health, etc. But starting with Duality removes a bunch of potential restrictions on how good the relationship can be.

[Poptart]

But what if you think your dual is generally a sub-optimal life partner?

[FreelancePoliceman]

No, that isn't my idea. But I believe that any relationship outside of Duality is sub-optimal. Which is not to say that all Dual relationships are optimal. Some people are very screwed up, and there can be huge mismatches in intelligence, backgrounds, expectations, mental health, etc. But starting with Duality removes a bunch of potential restrictions on how good the relationship can be.

So would you say it’s a mistake to date a non-dual? That’s how I read your post.

[Adam Strange]

So would you say it’s a mistake to date a non-dual? That’s how I read your post.

It depends on whether you are dating for the long-term or dating for entertainment. I've done both.

Right now, I'm dating for the long run, so I'm limiting myself to dating Duals. This is not a hardship. There are many more ESIs than there are LIEs. The main problem is that ESIs look at an LIE and just see someone who is very different from them and therefore don't consider dating them. These ESIs are more likely to date other ESIs, or someone close to them at the Socionics round table. The ESIs who already know LIEs are probably married to one.

I'd say that you can date whomever you want, if you are willing to accept what you get. When I was married to an SLI-Te, I got someone who was good at saving money and giving concrete care to children, and was not that emotionally available.

When I travel with an ILI buddy for entertainment, I get a guy who is a superb trip planner a person whom I only rarely want to strangle.

But for a long-term partner, I want someone who covers all of my weaknesses and appreciates all my strengths.

[Adam Strange]

But what if you think your dual is generally a sub-optimal life partner?

Are you talking in terms of an individual being sub-optimal, or the entire class of your Duals?

If the former, I wouldn't date them. If the latter, I'd try to get a better understanding of why Duals are supposed to be the best match, and then I'd see if those arguments make sense for my situation. If they don't, then off to the next type I'd go. Or to someone who has exactly whatever it is that I am looking for, other than Duality.

[Poptart]

Are you talking in terms of an individual being sub-optimal, or the entire class of your Duals?

If the former, I wouldn't date them. If the latter, I'd try to get a better understanding of why Duals are supposed to be the best match, and then I'd see if those arguments make sense for my situation. If they don't, then off to the next type I'd go. Or to someone who has exactly whatever it is that I am looking for, other than Duality.

I’ve never met a male ILE my age who had his shit together. I’m sure they exist, it’s just that I’ve never met one. I love ILEs and think they’re great and everything, but I generally prefer the rationality of LIIs and think they’re better suited for family life.

[Adam Strange]

I’ve never met a male ILE my age who had his shit together. I’m sure they exist, it’s just that I’ve never met one. I love ILEs and think they’re great and everything, but I generally prefer the rationality of LIIs and think they’re better suited for family life.

I know three male ILEs really well, two less well, and two more almost not at all, and I absolutely agree with you.

I asked the three guys I know well when they are going to get married (they are about 40) and they say "I'll settle down when I'm worn out. Maybe when I'm fifty." But they basically mean "never". And "when they are worn out"? WTF?

Two guys married IEIs, and one married an IEE, and all of their marriages imploded when the kids were early teens. As far as I can tell, the problem was that the wife was paying more attention to the real kids than the kid she married. Or that the guy was self-centered and irresponsible with kids.

One guy married a Dual and they seem OK, although she works and he plays around the house, again like a little kid. A lot of the success of that marriage depends on the SEI being super-caregiverish.

The last guy seems almost SLE-like and has a good job on a military base and he says he thanks god every day that he's married to a great woman. I haven't met her. His is the only marriage or relationship which seems like it's between two mature adults. He's also incredibly good-looking, like many SLEs, but he still has Ne rather than Ni.

But @Poptart, I also know fifteen LIIs, all but one married, and I think there's only one in the group with children. Actually, with one child, and that kid has autism.

[The Reality Denialist]

I’ve never met a male ILE my age who had his shit together. I’m sure they exist, it’s just that I’ve never met one. I love ILEs and think they’re great and everything, but I generally prefer the rationality of LIIs and think they’re better suited for family life.

Yeah. My literal shit tends not to be very varied. Anyway, I think the standardized gamma measures in society makes me want to hang myself from the spaghetti strand. I think I don't want any sort of family because it means zombiefying myself in order to actually to keep cash flowing on a stable rate.

[Stray Cat]

I’ve never met a male ILE my age who had his shit together. I’m sure they exist, it’s just that I’ve never met one. I love ILEs and think they’re great and everything, but I generally prefer the rationality of LIIs and think they’re better suited for family life.

Don't take this the wrong way, cause what you're saying makes sense, but it sounds like you're looking for security or someone who can be controlled rather than somebody with whom you can share a mental bond with. Not saying you are, cause wtf do I know, right? Either way, its your life. You do you

[Adam Strange]

Yeah. My literal shit tends not to be very varied. Anyway, I think the standardized gamma measures in society makes me want to hang myself from the spaghetti strand. I think I don't want any sort of family because it means zombiefying myself in order to actually to keep cash flowing on a stable rate.

@BrightDemonSheep96, I totally get this.

I was in an Alpha restaurant (fresh food, interestingly presented, with wonderful flavors and not expensive), and an entire group of Alphas came in and occupied a couple tables and the searchlight smiles and hugs all around and the loud, brilliant laughter and open expressions of concern and the generally ultra-happy and cheerful atmosphere they generated made me want to kill myself.

[Poptart]

Don't take this the wrong way, cause what you're saying makes sense, but it sounds like you're looking for security or someone who can be controlled rather than somebody with whom you can share a mental bond with. Not saying you are, cause wtf do I know, right? Either way, its your life. You do you

I am looking for security only because I want to have kids soon, and I think it’s important to provide children with a stable home life.

I don’t see why you think I’m looking for someone that I can control. In fact, I think I’m looking for the opposite. If I chose to date an ILE, I would feel the need to pressure him into getting his act together—something which I don’t want to do

I feel like my mental connection with LIIs is just as good as with ILEs. I also have an ILE brother and an ILE dad, so I kind of feel like I have enough ILEs in my life lol.

[PinKDiGiT18]

I am looking for security only because I want to have kids soon, and I think it’s important to provide children with a stable home life.

I don’t see why you think I’m looking for someone that I can control. In fact, I think I’m looking for the opposite. If I chose to date an ILE, I would feel the need to pressure him into getting his act together—something which I don’t want to do

I feel like my mental connection with LIIs is just as good as with ILEs. I also have an ILE brother and an ILE dad, so I kind of feel like I have enough ILEs in my life lol.

I find this curious because one of the results I've seen of having close dual family members is a sense that you don't "need" them. My ESI-Se cousin grew up with an LIE-Ni brother that was basically his twin in age and an EIE-Ni dad who was very LIE-like, and whom did he end up marrying? An IEI-Fe.

This is something that could be relevant to skosh's point, because a person can get overly familiar with their dual and think it's boring over time. There is a very attractive chemistry with your semi-dual, even though this can go to hogwash when you actually get together - thus revealing the value of the dual.

With regard to the appeal of LIIs though, the happiest marriage I know is an activity marriage, so... I completely understand the thought process. That as well can very much be worthwhile. Who knows, after my swearing off Activity due to crappy experiences, I still might end up with one because they are just that great to be with.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Well, semi-duals have a lot of natural affection. It's kinda like the most purest love relationship tbh. People like it a lot for this reason.

Duality is more mechanical and kind of less emotional. Especially for me, because a thinking type is my dual but another feeling type is my semi-dual. However thinking types have also reported this feeling of love and affection.

I would say duality is deeper, and doesn't start nowhere near as good but has more potential to evolve into something better. Semi-dual's early game is a lot better- but the growth is more limited because your hidden agenda function (something that naturally grows as a subconscious thing in the background) is the other's vulnerable function/path of least of resistance. So it's like you're always kind of annoying each other in the way and not doing anything about because it's a very subtle over time type thing - even though there is still all that flowery heaps of love.

[Stray Cat]

I am looking for security only because I want to have kids soon, and I think it’s important to provide children with a stable home life.

I don’t see why you think I’m looking for someone that I can control. In fact, I think I’m looking for the opposite. If I chose to date an ILE, I would feel the need to pressure him into getting his act together—something which I don’t want to do

I feel like my mental connection with LIIs is just as good as with ILEs. I also have an ILE brother and an ILE dad, so I kind of feel like I have enough ILEs in my life lol.

Ij temperament tends to be stable, reliable, "predictable" & cut the BS. That can make easy to kind of put in a sort of a box due to their commitment to what they believe is imperative.

https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...8-Temperaments

Generally irrationals resist structure while rationals kinda prefer it. Then again, my take aint relevant. If being with LII is for you, f*ck my opinion

[AWellArmedCat]

@BrightDemonSheep96 @FreelancePoliceman

You're both totally right! I was literally just about to comment how I don't feel this way at all about my Semi-Dual, but it perfectly describes my relationship to my Mirage! I always hit it off immediately when I meet new ILEs. I don't think that ever hasn't been the case for me. They're the easiest type to recognize for me too. Like I feel like I have a sixth sense that just detects nearby ILEs lol

[AWellArmedCat]

I’ve never met a male ILE my age who had his shit together.

Lol yeahhhh I can't say that any of my ILE friends "have their shit together." They're still like my favourite people to hang with though. Actually my brother's pretty well put-together and he's ILE. He seems to not feel like he has things under control, but from my perspective he seems much more stable than most ILEs do. I originally thought he was SLE actually and he has a lot of SLE qualities, but he's definitely Ne-lead

[AWellArmedCat]

The last guy seems almost SLE-like and has a good job on a military base and he says he thanks god every day that he's married to a great woman. I haven't met her. His is the only marriage or relationship which seems like it's between two mature adults. He's also incredibly good-looking, like many SLEs, but he still has Ne rather than Ni.

Yeah as I commented to Poptart, my brother is an SLE-ish ILE and he seems way more put-together than most ILEs I know. I bet that's a trend that the ones who seem more like SLEs have their life together a little better. I wonder if I beta-fied him cause he's four years younger than me and we always shared a room growing up and talk endlessly about life

[Milo]

I've seen this too, but a dual pair of worth is not going to fall apart for a semi-dual

[persimmonism]

I know three male ILEs really well, two less well, and two more almost not at all, and I absolutely agree with you.

I asked the three guys I know well when they are going to get married (they are about 40) and they say "I'll settle down when I'm worn out. Maybe when I'm fifty." But they basically mean "never". And "when they are worn out"? WTF?

Two guys married IEIs, and one married an IEE, and all of their marriages imploded when the kids were early teens. As far as I can tell, the problem was that the wife was paying more attention to the real kids than the kid she married. Or that the guy was self-centered and irresponsible with kids.

One guy married a Dual and they seem OK, although she works and he plays around the house, again like a little kid. A lot of the success of that marriage depends on the SEI being super-caregiverish.

The last guy seems almost SLE-like and has a good job on a military base and he says he thanks god every day that he's married to a great woman. I haven't met her. His is the only marriage or relationship which seems like it's between two mature adults. He's also incredibly good-looking, like many SLEs, but he still has Ne rather than Ni.

But @Poptart, I also know fifteen LIIs, all but one married, and I think there's only one in the group with children. Actually, with one child, and that kid has autism.

What about male SLEs? I worry that most will not be faithful or keen to commit. This doesn't seem to be the case with females.

[Adam Strange]

What about male SLEs? I worry that most will not be faithful or keen to commit. This doesn't seem to be the case with females.

I know five straight SLEs for sure, and one gay one.

The gay one is about 23 and seems like he would not be faithful, but that's just my impression. Of the remaining five,

DC is SLE-Ti and ex-Air Force and single after his main GF cheated on him and left him. He's extremely faithful.

LP is SLE-Se and was married but didn't like his wife and cheated on her and she was frail and died. He's been with at least three women in the past two years. I doubt if he'd be at all faithful to anyone.

MR is SLE-0 and a very old friend (since first grade) and a landlord and a little-league baseball coach. He's never been married, but he met an IEI-0 five years ago and they've been constant, happy companions. When I first met his IEI GF, I told her that MR's biggest problem might be that he'd cheat on her. He laughed and said "I could see that." She was not happy, so I told him that his GF was an extremely rare kind of person and there was just about no chance he'd meet another woman who'd be as concerned about him as she was. He thought about that but didn't say anything, and he's been with her ever since. I don't think he's ever going to cheat. She really looks out for him.

MW is an SLE-Se and he's served ten years in Jackson prison for armed robbery, but he's a basically decent guy who really doesn't understand why he does what he does. Actually, he looks scary as fuck. He's not afraid of anything that I've ever seen, including police who try to hassle him, but he does care about being treated fairly. Really, if you saw this guy coming down the street, you'd cross the street to avoid him. Ten years surviving in Jackson and lifting weights has made him look like he'd kill you without a thought if he happened to be having a slightly bad day. He's never been married, but he has a GF and some kids. I don't know if his kids are all by one woman or not, but he's devoted to them. If he ever cheated, it would be because he wasn't happy in his relationship and wouldn't know any other way to get out of it. He doesn't talk much.

MF is an SLE-Ti and has a job in a manufacturing plant. He's married, but he's also kind of worshiping an IEI that I've dated. She won't go near him because he's married, but other than that, she gets along with him really, really well. I get the impression that he would not cheat on his wife, probably. Unless the IEI said Yes. But maybe not even then. It's hard to tell. I think he looks at the IEI as a huge step up, and would treat her well if she were willing, which she is not.

[Stray Cat]

When did this turn into a thread about ILE/SLEs being Peter Pan?

[PinKDiGiT18]

When did this turn into a thread about ILE/SLEs being Peter Pan?

Bruh

[Bethanyclaire]

I get on well with semi-duals and would be happy to settle down with one, have a kid etc. I do think I have some negative bias towards them because I have known quite a few and my siblings are my semi-duals and I can feel quite annoyed with these people at times. However, there are some very pretty SEEs out there who would be great for a fling or short to long term romance. Also I’m sure there are some semi-duals who I’d get on better with than I do with my semi-dual friends and siblings, and who would be long term relationship material. Finding one is the trick. When it comes to the top ITR for relationships, I think that a handful of them have something unique to offer and have the potential to provide long-lasting fulfilment or stability.

[Rebelondeck]

I also get along well with semi-duals. The cause of most ITR still-births or failures is personal baggage originating from environmental conditioning, traumatic events and/or upbringing. Type differences rarely cause failures even though they create divergent goals, approaches, methods and measures of success. All type combinations can peacefully coexist given the right set of circumstances. Prospects for a partner would be severely restricted if a particular type with(out) particular baggage was sought. The attraction of two people can most often be attributed to animalistic drives but a significant number are drawn into relationships because of perceived benefits other than actual love. I recommend to use type only as an aid to help understand people – and not as a search engine.

a.k.a. I/O

[skosh]

I think the point is getting lost that everybody is a semi-dual to somebody so it's not to dismiss any type relation. If a dual pair is on good terms, but is confronted with a meddling semi-dual, how anxious should the one dual partner be? I just find it difficult to choose a semi-dual over a perfectly suitable dual partner.