A Hypothetical Example of Reincarnation

[jason_m]

Suppose someone was a Nazi during the holocaust. They then reincarnate. Because of what they did in a past life, they are treated like a holocaust Jew in today's society. However, they are raised Christian and don't believe in Karma. To someone who believes in reincarnation, this is justice. However, I will tell you why it isn't:

- The Jews in Nazi Germany were not evil.
- This person was.

However, in this new scenario:
- This person is not evil.
- The people ostracizing this person are evil.

The problem:
- The person being ostracized does not believe in karma.

Therefore:
- A score has therefore not been settled, because the person doesn't believe in karma at all.
- Justice has not been served, because both groups of evil people are just as bad the other. All that has happened then is that the Jews are now like Nazis and the Nazis are now like the Jews. Both groups of evil people then are on the wrong side, and if there was justice in this type of scenario, this would not be the case.

The bottom line:
- The people now doing the ostracizing are just as bad as the Nazis. Hence, it's just as wrong.

I want to hear your opinion. Give any insights you have...

[Euro2000Yoda]

No matter what life form we inhabit, or what time period it is, thought, emotion, channeling, anchoring potential, activating possibilities, looking further on the shoulder's of giants, all of these modes of contemplation and looking inside of ourselves are universal, everlasting, archetypal. It doesn't matter if we're on heaven or on earth, talking to God or feeling his presence, the moment that matters is now. The time to act is now, the time to dream is now, and those dreams remain fixed in solidity no matter where you are.

[myresearch]

Hypothetical solution: If reincarnation exist, then karma happens to a soul not the body they live in or identity they are aware of. If someone was a Nazi, he is not mainly an agent of his current identity but his soul. When he recarnates he brings that soul into a new body, doesn't possess a new soul, in other words, recarnated bodies cannot be assessed independently hence justice served in terms of soul.

Besides, karma necessarily doesn't equal to justice and it necessarily doesn't award good vs evil.

[xerx]

Suppose someone was a Nazi during the holocaust. They then reincarnate. Because of what they did in a past life, they are treated like a holocaust Jew in today's society. However, they are raised Christian and don't believe in Karma. To someone who believes in reincarnation, this is justice. However, I will tell you why it isn't:

- The Jews in Nazi Germany were not evil.
- This person was.

However, in this new scenario:
- This person is not evil.
- The people ostracizing this person are evil.

The problem:
- The person being ostracized does not believe in karma.

Therefore:
- A score has therefore not been settled, because the person doesn't believe in karma at all.
- Justice has not been served, because both groups of evil people are just as bad the other. All that has happened then is that the Jews are now like Nazis and the Nazis are now like the Jews. Both groups of evil people then are on the wrong side, and if there was justice in this type of scenario, this would not be the case.

The bottom line:
- The people now doing the ostracizing are just as bad as the Nazis. Hence, it's just as wrong.

I want to hear your opinion. Give any insights you have...

Does it matter whether the person knows about karma, has the choice to believe in it, but that s/he has chosen not to?

Also, why does it matter whether this person believe in karma in the first place?

[jason_m]

Does it matter whether the person knows about karma, has the choice to believe in it, but that s/he has chosen not to?

Also, why does it matter whether this person believe in karma in the first place?

It might not matter - even if they believe in karma, it could still be considered wrong. I guess the bottom line could be that such forms of 'revenge' are always wrong when you incorporate reincarnation...

[rivka]

Why is justice a good thing?

[jason_m]

Why is justice a good thing?

I cannot explain. It would just lead to a long debate in which the main point would be lost. I guess you either believe in justice or you don't, and one's mind could be changed, but it is not so easy to do that...

[rivka]

I cannot explain. It would just lead to a long debate in which the main point would be lost. I guess you either believe in justice or you don't, and one's mind could be changed, but it is not so easy to do that...

i just want to know what you think!

[jason_m]

Justice is a good thing because of equality. When we assume that what is unethical for one person applies to basically everyone, we then have to grant everyone the same rights. There are exceptions to this, but it is based on the notion that no one person should be granted more liberties or freedoms than anyone else. It is also based on the notion that we cannot just arbitrarily take away someone's freedom. In this case, there should be no scapegoats and no people given preferential treatment. Unless you break the law, everyone is therefore treated equally. If you break the law, you are then sentenced to a relatively equal punishment to the damage you have caused. You should also know why you are being punished. In the case of reincarnation, one does not seem to know why, so it can be seen as unjust... Certain notions of personhood also have to be in place for justice to be served. Reincarnation seems to violate this as well...

[jason_m]

The point is that if everyone is considered equal, no one is given preferential treatment over everyone else, and we only punish those who have done something wrong, then it is better for everyone to believe in justice...

[xerx]

It might not matter - even if they believe in karma, it could still be considered wrong. I guess the bottom line could be that such forms of 'revenge' are always wrong when you incorporate reincarnation...

I agree with what you wrote in the OP, by the way.

The idea that evil will always exist to administer so-called "justice" is a far-reaching claim about human society and human nature. It presupposes that all societies, both past and present, have existed, and will continue to exist, in imitation of each other. If the same ratio between good and evil necessarily exist during every cycle, it also presupposes that mankind is imperfectible, and that human nature is unchangeable. It exists in contrast to modernity, with its central premise that technology can be leveraged to eliminate societal and personal problems, and to fundamentally transform society.

I don't know whether or not mankind is a fixed part of some immutable cosmic order, but that premise can be used (or abused, depending on your perspective) to reinforce the beliefs of deeply reactionary elements in society. In India, karma has been used to justify deep social inequality, like the segregation of society into castes alongside an entire group of 'untouchables'.

Today, a topical debate centres on how to characterize the religion of Islam. Islam, at least in principle, is a very egalitarian religion. And in India, the Muslim population is heavily made up of people from the lower ranks of society, whose ancestors converted to Islam to escape the Hindu caste system. This fact ought to present a counterpoint to the lazy trope that Eastern religions are somehow more enlightened than Western religions.

[rivka]

circular reasoning yawn... this just sounds like risk management for overly vindictive fi egos

[jason_m]

circular reasoning yawn... this just sounds like risk management for overly vindictive fi egos

If you are willing to have no more than anyone else, it works. If you want more rights than everyone else, you might take advantage, and it breaks down...

[rivka]

If you are willing to have no more than anyone else, it works. If you want more rights than everyone else, you might take advantage, and it breaks down...

crabs in a bucket

[Milo]

- Justice has not been served, because both groups of evil people are just as bad the other. All that has happened then is that the Jews are now like Nazis and the Nazis are now like the Jews. Both groups of evil people then are on the wrong side, and if there was justice in this type of scenario, this would not be the case.

The bottom line:
- The people now doing the ostracizing are just as bad as the Nazis. Hence, it's just as wrong.

I want to hear your opinion. Give any insights you have...

There was an evolution on that concept: that good and evil don't really exist. Whichever is labeled as good is usually whoever supports you in your opinion and livelihood, and that which is evil is anything who stands in opposition to what your opinions and way of life. Sickness, death, one's enemies, even contradicting one's opinions have been labeled as evil where as your own community, opinions, set of values, friends and family must be necessarily good. Thus good and evil as labels are an expression of egotism, even narcissism, of making sure things go your way and in your support. This evolution that happened in spiritual sense was to acknowledge that good and evil are relative to each other; in other words: the devil view angels as evil. That brought on the next philosophical thought which is exemplified in socionics: that there is no good or evil but that there is unity and struggle of opposites.

Would like to hear your thoughts on this if you leave behind labeling Jews and Nazis as good or evil in your example, and then substitute the good and evil characteristics with the dialectic: https://encyclopedia2.thefreediction...e+of+Opposites)

- A score has therefore not been settled, because the person doesn't believe in karma at all.

One doesn't have to believe in something for it to be there, and the scores get settled despite people's beliefs.