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Thread: 'Ethics' vs Ethics - for the Last Time

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    Default 'Ethics' vs Ethics - for the Last Time

    For the last time: socionics 'ethics' does not mean ethics - as in morals, and ethical types are therefore more moral than everyone else. I'm sorry, but no one should confuse this - and I could indeed be an ethical type, but I don't agree. It is simply flat out wrong to think that people who are immoral have some kind of superior logical skill over everyone else. The theory simply doesn't imply that. If it does, I am done with the theory. It doesn't mean strong likes and dislikes either, as those could be people who are Si who are (e.g.) really attached to certain sensations. With respect to Fi, it has to do with the deeper side emotionally, and deep, almost 'spiritual' feelings of connectedness with people and things. Fe has to do with lightening the mood, and people's spirits, etc. (*OR* something akin to what I wrote for each Fe and Fi in turn.) If the theory is saying that logical people are inherently immoral, I am done with the theory. That is simply the end of it for me...

    EDIT:

    Follow this:

    "All logical people are inherently immoral." Then:

    - If you consider yourself a logical person, then you can't be a moral person, because all logical people are not moral.
    - If you consider yourself a moral person, then you can't be a logical person, because you would have to be immoral.

    There is clearly something wrong with that view...
    Last edited by jason_m; 06-09-2021 at 02:01 AM.

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    Here is more of what's wrong with certain thinking/feeling distinctions:

    (From Biomedical Ethics, Johnna Fisher)

    "The Nazis also extolled hardness, which they thought led to victory in the struggle for survival. H*****r was proud of his own hardness. He said, "I am perhaps the hardest man this nation has had for 200 years." The belief in hardness came partly from Nietzsche. He was contemptuous of English biologists, and so was predictably cool about Darwin. Despite this, Nietzsche was in certain respects a Social Darwinist. He too thought compassion for the weak was sentimental nonsense, and advocated struggle and hardness."

    And, of course, the Nazis persecuted the weak, the Jews, the mentally ill.

    I also remember that Nietzsche was one of Jung's examples of the introverted thinking type - who extol hardness as a virtue - so this better not be the philosophy behind the MBTI and socionics... I find that absolutely preposterous... Something like this showing up in the MBTI is flat out wrong. If socionics is expounding this, I am done with the theory...
    Last edited by jason_m; 06-09-2021 at 01:59 AM.

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    Fi is probably best thought of as either empathy and/or the ability/willingness to navigate through social situations with politeness and manners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    For the last time: socionics 'ethics' does not mean ethics - as in morals, and ethical types are therefore more moral than everyone else. I'm sorry, but no one should confuse this
    Is this even a problem? I wasn't under the impression anyone here did confuse them.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Is this even a problem? I wasn't under the impression anyone here did confuse them.
    I saw a number of youtube videos on this recently. Maybe I conflated this with general consensus...

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    Here is a note to myself: if a thinking type is some kind of lunatic, why do I even care to be one? This has been really important to me for some time, but either it describes some kind of lunatic and the definition is garbage, or it defines something real, and the definition probably applies. It shouldn't matter either way... That could be the stupid mistake I am making... Maybe going back to high school when I was introduced to the MBTI in the 1990s...
    Last edited by jason_m; 06-09-2021 at 02:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I saw a number of youtube videos on this recently. Maybe I conflated this with general consensus...
    There's a "number" of Socionics videos on youtube?? News to me! From a quick search, I only really see Michael Pierce (who is principally an MBTI guy IIRC?), Olimpia, the WSS, and some doofus with the channel name "Brain's Journey;" anything else seems pretty obscure and low in views. What channels do you recommend? Which would you say are bad?

    Edit: most typology videos that aren't just hours of monotonous speech or socially awkward people all talking about nothing seem to be of about this "quality:"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH3hFGGhpcU

    Incidentally, she doesn't seem to me like either an EII or IEI (assuming she's an advocate of the j/p switch), unless she's in a really weird mental state, which from my impression of her other videos is admittedly possible.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 06-09-2021 at 02:58 AM.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Everyone is walking around with their own interpretation of the IEs. Fi and Si seem to be the most divisive. I have my own wonky ideas about Fe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    Everyone is walking around with their own interpretation of the IEs. Fi and Si seem to be the most divisive. I have my own wonky ideas about Fe.
    The introverted functions are all more difficult to describe, I think. The rational functions have more of an element of perception, and the irrational ones more of an evaluative element, than their extraverted counterparts.

    Anyway, you can’t just say something like that and leave us hanging! What are your ideas about Fe?
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    The introverted functions are all more difficult to describe, I think. The rational functions have more of an element of perception, and the irrational ones more of an evaluative element, than their extraverted counterparts.

    Anyway, you can’t just say something like that and leave us hanging! What are your ideas about Fe?
    I don’t want to say lol. Too much effort to explain, and I’m sure I’ll convince no one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    and some doofus with the channel name "Brain's Journey;"
    lol @ the Brain’s Journey slander. I thought his videos were ok.

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    Ethics mb more about etiquette
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    lol @ the Brain’s Journey slander. I thought his videos were ok.
    I haven't watched any; just think the channel name is silly.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I haven't watched any; just think the channel name is silly.
    I see. Brain’s Journey is a good channel for people who are new to socionics.
    Last edited by Poptart; 06-09-2021 at 06:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    I don’t want to say lol. Too much effort to explain, and I’m sure I’ll convince no one.
    Even if you don't convince anyone, it might be interesting to read.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    I don’t want to say lol. Too much effort to explain, and I’m sure I’ll convince no one.
    I'd like to hear your Si Fe too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post
    I'd like to hear your Si Fe too.
    Hopefully she feels it’s linked to susceptibility to peer pressure.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    whole lotta words to say you disagree w someone

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Is this even a problem? I wasn't under the impression anyone here did confuse them.
    No not really. Sometimes I see people thinking that ethics is Fi (or not recognizing how Ti plays into it).

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    Pro tip: if you're refuting or responding to some opinion you read/watched, post an actual link to what you're responding to instead of claiming that it's a widespread view without evidence. People say all kinds of things about typology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH3hFGGhpcU

    Incidentally, she doesn't seem to me like either an EII or IEI (assuming she's an advocate of the j/p switch), unless she's in a really weird mental state, which from my impression of her other videos is admittedly possible.
    Maybe ESI

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    There's a "number" of Socionics videos on youtube?? News to me! From a quick search, I only really see Michael Pierce (who is principally an MBTI guy IIRC?), Olimpia, the WSS, and some doofus with the channel name "Brain's Journey;" anything else seems pretty obscure and low in views. What channels do you recommend? Which would you say are bad?

    Edit: most typology videos that aren't just hours of monotonous speech or socially awkward people all talking about nothing seem to be of about this "quality:"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH3hFGGhpcU

    Incidentally, she doesn't seem to me like either an EII or IEI (assuming she's an advocate of the j/p switch), unless she's in a really weird mental state, which from my impression of her other videos is admittedly possible.
    I just looked. It was "Brain's Journey"...

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    I think ethical types are more oriented towards the systems of peoples while logic types are more oriented toward the systems of logistics. I would argue that there is a lot of the certainty in the ambiguity and understanding with people and the self when it comes to 'ethics'.

    The reason I love psychology so much is that there will always be some ambiguity when it comes to people. Like, there are so many studies in psychology where what would be a 'logical' prediction (a+b=c) would be proved wrong. Hell, even when diagnosing a mental disorder, there is leeway because people are so different. You can get the right answer but the right answer can keep changing or there can be an exception. Same thing can be said in ethical philosophy. You can argue two opposing views and they can be air tight. Ethics is like the subject view and system of people. I feel more comfortable with the ambiguity of people then the certainty of logistics.

    Logical types just feel more comfortable and are stronger with logical systems. In the sense, logic always has a concrete answer. Even with theories that can't be proven yet, there is still a system that explains systemically how the theory was created step by step and why. I always hear that people who love math and science say they enjoy it because there is always a definitive answer. That is something a bit foreign to me.

    Logical are far from being immoralistic.The funny thing I have noticed is that logical types tend to have a very strong perception of morals and what it is to be moral and ethics. They can feel very strongly about their ethical views compared to me sometimes. From my perception, I notice with logical types is that there ethical reasoning is very linear and systematic in both object and subjective ways. When I am talking with ethical types when discussing ethical views, it is not as linear.

    For example: My mom (SLI) was telling me of an acquaintance that took her 3 teenage girls to be vaccinated. Two of the girls had a full on meltdown. My mom got very irritated that those girls were having a meltdown. She viewed it as the girls were overreacting towards an insignificant threat in public, why should they be having a meltdown! She said she would be very crossed if my siblings and I were ever to do that. Is she right? logistically so. A small needle and shot is not something to be upset over as the threat and pain is very small and it is an overreaction in a public setting. I can agree to this. However, all I could think about was that those girl's were young, scared, and probably didn't even understand why they are freaking out. I would be very upset if I was having a meltdown and My mom responded that way to me. Yelling at them isn't going to help and shaming them for overreacting isn't going to help either. When your scared, you can't think logically cause your brain is in overdrive. I would have responded differently like bring them to a quiet place and letting them get it out for awhile. Funny enough, sometimes when you validate the illogical, your brain recognizes it too and starts kick starts the logical process.

    Ethics and Logic are just two different systems. In my opinion, ethics is concerned with the subject view and subjectivity of people. Logic is concerned with the systematic and linear aspect of logistics. You need both. Just either have a natural preference.

    That's my two cents
    Last edited by MissDucki; 06-10-2021 at 02:41 PM. Reason: It's late and a critical spelling typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissDucki View Post

    For example: My mom (SLI) was telling me of an acquaintance that took her 3 teenage girls to be vaccinated. Two of the girls had a full on meltdown. My mom got very irritated that those girls were having a meltdown. She viewed it as the girls were overreacting towards an insignificant threat in public, why should they be having a meltdown! She said she would be very crossed if my siblings and I were ever to do that. Is she right? logistically so. A small needle and shot is not something to be upset over as the threat and pain is very small and it is an overreaction in a public setting. I can agree to this. However, all I could think about was that those girl's were young, scared, and probably didn't even understand why they are freaking out. I would be very upset if I was having a meltdown and My mom responded that way to me. Yelling at them isn't going to help and shaming them for overreacting isn't going to help either. When your scared, you can't think logically cause your brain is in overdrive. If they were my kids, I would have probably brought them somewhere quiet to relax for a little and chat with them on regarding why they were scared and validate the feelings. Funny enough, sometimes when you validate the illogical, your brain recognizes it too and starts kick starts the logical process.
    I think you're point is correct, the example you used was just flawed. When it comes to problem solving, I(an ILE), will typically at least acknowledge people's reactions and how to change/deal with them. I could see it linked more specifically with the strength of Fe when it comes to actually taking people's feelings into account like that. Even if logical types are bad at actually physically empathizing and feeling other people's emotions(Fi probably), they can still take it in account if they have it as at least mildly strong(activating and possibly role, though ofc it's more linked to development of Fe individually).

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    A lot of ILEs (especially Ne-subtype) strike me as extremely emotionally intelligent and empathetic outside of the occasional off-color joke. Fi-types in contrast can be pretty judgmental and petty

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    this is where vibe typing is often superior to an alpha NT invented system of describing the *behaviour* of people with Fi. I've just always hated the Fi descriptions.. they are so polarized ("OOh I love everyone" or "I want to kill everyone" or "I'm reserved polite and don't have any personality") and not really objective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Averroes View Post
    A lot of ILEs (especially Ne-subtype) strike me as extremely emotionally intelligent and empathetic outside of the occasional off-color joke. Fi-types in contrast can be pretty judgmental and petty
    Lol I actually disagree. Sorry I didn’t mean to click like

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baqer View Post
    I think you're point is correct, the example you used was just flawed. When it comes to problem solving, I(an ILE), will typically at least acknowledge people's reactions and how to change/deal with them. I could see it linked more specifically with the strength of Fe when it comes to actually taking people's feelings into account like that. Even if logical types are bad at actually physically empathizing and feeling other people's emotions(Fi probably), they can still take it in account if they have it as at least mildly strong(activating and possibly role, though ofc it's more linked to development of Fe individually).
    After thinking about it, I do agree with you. The example was flawed and a bit of poor thinking back now. The reason I used it was it was a bit of a light bulb moment with me when my mom was talking about it and how we approached the problem differently. It's not that she didn't care or want to help, she was just approaching it in her natural system of logistics and how she understands it. That is not my natural system of approaching this kind of situation and with my system, that how I came to interpret it.

    I do agree with you. Like you mentioned, as an ILE, you will typically acknowledge people's reactions when problem solving the issue and logical Fi using types can empathize as well. Logical types can be very empathetic and kind. It's just, that I have noticed, that they may not as quickly as understand why something is an ethical issue, or why someone is emotional, etc, until it is explained in a logical way or something similar to their logistical system.

    I don't want to come across that Logical types are immoral because they're not. As an ethical type, I am no saint by any means. Logical and ethical just use two different systems and it just that it can be jarring at times when using a system that doesn't naturally, at first, fit into a different system.
    Last edited by MissDucki; 06-11-2021 at 10:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissDucki View Post
    I think ethical types are more oriented towards the systems of peoples while logic types are more oriented toward the systems of logistics. I would argue that there is a lot of the certainty in the ambiguity and understanding with people and the self when it comes to 'ethics'.

    The reason I love psychology so much is that there will always be some ambiguity when it comes to people. Like, there are so many studies in psychology where what would be a 'logical' prediction (a+b=c) would be proved wrong. Hell, even when diagnosing a mental disorder, there is leeway because people are so different. You can get the right answer but the right answer can keep changing or there can be an exception. Same thing can be said in ethical philosophy. You can argue two opposing views and they can be air tight. Ethics is like the subject view and system of people. I feel more comfortable with the ambiguity of people then the certainty of logistics.

    Logical types just feel more comfortable and are stronger with logical systems. In the sense, logic always has a concrete answer. Even with theories that can't be proven yet, there is still a system that explains systemically how the theory was created step by step and why. I always hear that people who love math and science say they enjoy it because there is always a definitive answer. That is something a bit foreign to me.

    Logical are far from being immoralistic.The funny thing I have noticed is that logical types tend to have a very strong perception of morals and what it is to be moral and ethics. They can feel very strongly about their ethical views compared to me sometimes. From my perception, I notice with logical types is that there ethical reasoning is very linear and systematic in both object and subjective ways. When I am talking with ethical types when discussing ethical views, it is not as linear.

    For example: My mom (SLI) was telling me of an acquaintance that took her 3 teenage girls to be vaccinated. Two of the girls had a full on meltdown. My mom got very irritated that those girls were having a meltdown. She viewed it as the girls were overreacting towards an insignificant threat in public, why should they be having a meltdown! She said she would be very crossed if my siblings and I were ever to do that. Is she right? logistically so. A small needle and shot is not something to be upset over as the threat and pain is very small and it is an overreaction in a public setting. I can agree to this. However, all I could think about was that those girl's were young, scared, and probably didn't even understand why they are freaking out. I would be very upset if I was having a meltdown and My mom responded that way to me. Yelling at them isn't going to help and shaming them for overreacting isn't going to help either. When your scared, you can't think logically cause your brain is in overdrive. I would have responded differently like bring them to a quiet place and letting them get it out for awhile. Funny enough, sometimes when you validate the illogical, your brain recognizes it too and starts kick starts the logical process.

    Ethics and Logic are just two different systems. In my opinion, ethics is concerned with the subject view and subjectivity of people. Logic is concerned with the systematic and linear aspect of logistics. You need both. Just either have a natural preference.

    That's my two cents
    That is why you probably go with someone with dominant intuition. Intuitive types aren't as prone to seeing things through linear, black-and-white logic. Look at quantum mechanics: a wave and a particle can be the same. Someone with linear thinking would never grasp that. And most of the people that understand that stuff are still logical types - but with strong intuition. What you said about psychology sounds similar. I think sensing, perhaps non-leading logical types do not see this. Nonetheless, I basically agree with what you wrote, and I think you're on the right track...

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    I always thought ethical/feeling type meant you are naturally orientated to think more about humanity and how something is making somebody else feel- not necessarily that you are a 'good' person yourself, or more moral. Nobody is "Good" anyway. It doesn't mean you can't figure something out that takes pure logical str8 man brain power and no heart- you just prefer not to.

    Logical type- you like for example naturally pay a lot more attention to how a lawn mower specifically functions or how to properly manage a business rather than relating and talking about soap opera characters or getting involved in SJW crap. But it doesn't mean you can't like a soap opera from time to time lol. (cuz people are complex)

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    Lol I actually disagree. Sorry I didn’t mean to click like
    i was thinking of ones who are older and not on the autism-spectrum like Jon Stewart, Russell brand, and maybe Andrew Yang
    Last edited by Averroes; 06-11-2021 at 04:44 PM.

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