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Thread: Alpha quadra’s complex of the closed mouth

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    Default Alpha quadra’s complex of the closed mouth

    We need to talk about this you guys.

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    I believe the quadral complexes are a theory only of Stratiyevskaya, right?

    I'm not sure how much I accept the quadral complexes -- they seem to me all generally applicable to most people. That being said, I'll try to talk about what I relate to.

    Ever since I was a child I've always felt a strong hatred of being excluded from conversations, especially of a secretive sort. I also hate the feeling of being present but unable to participate, or of being unwelcome. On the other side of the coin, I like to know secrets. Information most people don't have has an exciting allure.

    I generally enjoy talking with people, and feel as if I could keep up a conversation indefinitely, as long as it were interesting. I don't mind casual 1-on-1 conversations at all, but what I love is a group atmosphere where there's a sense of "fun" and casual competitiveness in discussion, by which I mean people try to argue their points, defend them, and attack others' in a struggle to make everyone concede to their own point of view. My mother's family leans Alpha, and family reunions are often like this (and are a lot of fun), so I can see this being an Alpha trait. But I don't at all like it if such an atmosphere turns vicious or hostile toward anyone; it's important that a spirit of playfulness be maintained. Come to think of it, I think what I like is the atmosphere of a game: everyone is free to try as hard as possible to win, but all ultimately for fun. I very much enjoy playing games with other people, on that note, especially ones that rely more on strategy or skill than on luck -- but I don't enjoy playing video games by myself.

    I don't at all like the concept of certain thoughts or expressions being forbidden. I grew up evangelical, and the notion that there were certain thoughts you couldn't think without being worthy of eternal damnation left a really bad taste in my mouth and influenced my leaving Christianity. I hate the feeling that there are certain words or ideas I'm unable to express in certain situations; I try to allow others the same freedom when I'm in such a position as to be able to. I also don't tend to mind topics of conversation being abruptly changed; if suddenly changes the subject my only consideration is that the new subject be interesting.

    I like it when people, even strangers, start conversations out of the blue -- by which I don't mean small talk /asking "how are you," but suddenly launching into their opinions about the weather or what they did last week, and expecting you to engage; I also like atmospheres where this is permitted or encouraged. I think duality is a little overrated, but sometimes ESEs do this, and it's one of my favorite traits of theirs.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Might be f'ing wrong on all this. Drunk rn, tbh....


    Ne is ideas, possibilities, it's a truly speculative & communicative (through their chosen media) function. Ne opens doors & overturns rocks to potentially extend these possibilities indefinitely.

    Fe is merry, inviting, enjoys a homeostatic environment where the entire room is in the same sort if emotional circle.

    Si recalls events in fine detail. It feeds Ne the "concrete" data necessary to branch out. It is atmospheric, helping to create the atmosphere Ne prefers for discussion truly thrive.

    Ti classifies, brings about law & understanding. It's a bit of a stabilizer. It rationalizes. In this context, "laws" reign things in then allow coherency

    Alpha is the quadra responsible for fresh ideas for their own merit. If Alpha "shut their mouths", the entire socion would stagnate cause only Alphas truly appreciate the initial process of creativity without morality, subservience or finances holding it down

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    SEIs tend to be the most closed-mouthed of the bunch especially when they're unsure of the company; they tend to be very defensive among strangers. LIIs tend to be detached sorts and often will remain silent unless they've something meaningful to add but they're not usually shy about speaking their mind even to strangers. Now, there have been more than a few occasions when I've wished that the other two types would just shut-up once in a while.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Alpha's greatest strength is communication and verbal sparring. The expression of our ideas, idealizations, emotions, and competition to persuade others to our side is extremely important within the group. Words are power and democracy is upheld with it.

    I am pretty timid and I generally like to keep to myself but, I always enjoy throwing out ideas and 'sparing' with others to see why theirs is essentially better. Why do you believe this and how can you back it up in multiple scenarios? Can it hold up? I enjoy is more so when it comes to morality and people personally because I like those topics and I feel the strongest in 'sparing' in those context. I also feel very confident in using emotional expression and persuasion techniques when I need to. It is more harder with strangers but I really get into it when I am comfortable with people and passionate. People have always commented I get very expressive both in my body and words when I am passionate about something.

    In my opinion, I don't think that Alpha's are not afraid to be not 'heard' rather, there is no equal ground when they had the chance to both speak about their ideology and not be considered an 'immoral' person despite having such an ideology. The democracy of ideology comes in here. There also seems to be a detachment from the person and the ideology when it comes to discussing in Alpha spaces in the sense when I argue with Delta, where you are your ideology.

    For example: I had an LSE classmate where we debating our own personal beliefs on how long one should wait to marry someone during the dating phrase. I said I would leave after two years if I didn't have a ring and he got upset and argued that his five was the best. He initially argued me into submission and agree that his five years was superior and felt 'very happy' that he could convince me. His reasoning were valid and factual, I just didn't feel that my ideology was given equal consideration and I was 'bad' for having a different one even though it wasn't a black or white issue. I felt very crappy afterwards and by the end of the night I still agree with my own point. My ideology wasn't fact but his was. I felt like it's a bit of a pecking order when it comes to arguing with Delta's about ideology or anything really.

    I dated an ILE and it was honestly the first time I could argue comfortably. I wasn't pecked down for expressing my views and ideology. We would 'spare' but I didn't feel crappy afterward for expressing a different view even if he or I didn't agree. Even if it was taken too far, there was always a let up and not a dismissal of me as a person. Plus I always liked that I wasn't forced to have the same ideology and didn't feel 'bad' for not having the same one. I am not a 'bad' person for having a different ideology, I just may have the potential of having a 'bad' ideology and may need to question.

    I feel in Alpha spaces you are always allowed to have a chance to argue your ideology however, you are not allowed to force that opinion on others. On a democratic space, you must be able to back up your ideology and convince others and they must agree with you freely. The majority choose to take that ideology forward. Even if you fail to get the majority, you still have a chance to fight another day on equal ground again. Words are power and we should not take that away from others. So the worst thing you can do force our mouths shut. Forcing our mouth shuts and forcing us to obey is the most dis-empowering thing one can do I think.

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    I strongly dislike it when people exclude others from meetings at work. I don’t mean to say that every meeting needs to turn into a company wide meeting, but I do believe that everyone who wants to participate should be welcome. I feel like it’s important to let people lower on the company totem pole speak because they might have information about certain topics, especially because they’re the ones who spend the most time in the weeds. Meetings are important sources of information, so it can be harmful to exclude others when you don’t relay any information to them afterwards.
    Last edited by Poptart; 06-07-2021 at 06:23 PM.

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    The quadra complex articles are my favorite in all of socionics, even if they are “a theory only of Stratiyevskaya”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    Si recalls events in fine detail. It feeds Ne the "concrete" data necessary to branch out. It is atmospheric, helping to create the atmosphere Ne prefers for discussion truly thrive.
    I have to disagree on this one. Si doesn't "recall" anything. It simply means sensing the finer, deeper sensations that the external world evokes on the inside. And it is not about "events" either.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    SEIs tend to be the most closed-mouthed of the bunch especially when they're unsure of the company; they tend to be very defensive among strangers. LIIs tend to be detached sorts and often will remain silent unless they've something meaningful to add but they're not usually shy about speaking their mind even to strangers. Now, there have been more than a few occasions when I've wished that the other two types would just shut-up once in a while.

    a.k.a. I/O
    I think it’s kind of silly to say “x type is the most like their quadra, y type is the least like their quadra”. It reminds me of the “most intuitive N type”, “most introverted introvert”, etc. discussions you see in MBTI all of the time. Also, the complex of closed mouth is more complicated than just “alphas are loud”, so boiling it down to the loudest and quietest types of the quadra doesn’t really make sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissDucki View Post
    Alpha's greatest strength is communication and verbal sparring. The expression of our ideas, idealizations, emotions, and competition to persuade others to our side is extremely important within the group. Words are power and democracy is upheld with it.

    I am pretty timid and I generally like to keep to myself but, I always enjoy throwing out ideas and 'sparing' with others to see why theirs is essentially better. Why do you believe this and how can you back it up in multiple scenarios? Can it hold up? I enjoy is more so when it comes to morality and people personally because I like those topics and I feel the strongest in 'sparing' in those context. I also feel very confident in using emotional expression and persuasion techniques when I need to. It is more harder with strangers but I really get into it when I am comfortable with people and passionate. People have always commented I get very expressive both in my body and words when I am passionate about something.

    In my opinion, I don't think that Alpha's are not afraid to be not 'heard' rather, there is no equal ground when they had the chance to both speak about their ideology and not be considered an 'immoral' person despite having such an ideology. The democracy of ideology comes in here. There also seems to be a detachment from the person and the ideology when it comes to discussing in Alpha spaces in the sense when I argue with Delta, where you are your ideology.

    For example: I had an LSE classmate where we debating our own personal beliefs on how long one should wait to marry someone during the dating phrase. I said I would leave after two years if I didn't have a ring and he got upset and argued that his five was the best. He initially argued me into submission and agree that his five years was superior and felt 'very happy' that he could convince me. His reasoning were valid and factual, I just didn't feel that my ideology was given equal consideration and I was 'bad' for having a different one even though it wasn't a black or white issue. I felt very crappy afterwards and by the end of the night I still agree with my own point. My ideology wasn't fact but his was. I felt like it's a bit of a pecking order when it comes to arguing with Delta's about ideology or anything really.

    I dated an ILE and it was honestly the first time I could argue comfortably. I wasn't pecked down for expressing my views and ideology. We would 'spare' but I didn't feel crappy afterward for expressing a different view even if he or I didn't agree. Even if it was taken too far, there was always a let up and not a dismissal of me as a person. Plus I always liked that I wasn't forced to have the same ideology and didn't feel 'bad' for not having the same one. I am not a 'bad' person for having a different ideology, I just may have the potential of having a 'bad' ideology and may need to question.

    I feel in Alpha spaces you are always allowed to have a chance to argue your ideology however, you are not allowed to force that opinion on others. On a democratic space, you must be able to back up your ideology and convince others and they must agree with you freely. The majority choose to take that ideology forward. Even if you fail to get the majority, you still have a chance to fight another day on equal ground again. Words are power and we should not take that away from others. So the worst thing you can do force our mouths shut. Forcing our mouth shuts and forcing us to obey is the most dis-empowering thing one can do I think.
    Your point about Alpha being democratic is valid. They're also judicious, willing to study, plan & explore for optimal argumentation (especially NT Alpha researcher). Willing to bet their SF socialite value system is responsible for the, somewhat, peacemaker attitude Alpha take during debate

    I've seen the alpha/delta argumentation dynamic play out in sports debate. Not ideal. The alpha, with his merry disposition & subjective logic would only accuse others when using incorrect facts. The delta, with his serious disposition & objective logic believed an argument could just be straight up "wrong".

    Alpha willingly go along with any debate with accurate facts. Sports is a decent & popular platform for Alpha to communicate on cause clear facts exist but such facts are also open to interpretation or different ideology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    I think it’s kind of silly to say “x type is the most like their quadra, y type is the least like their quadra”. It reminds me of the “most intuitive N type”, “most introverted introvert”, etc. discussions you see in MBTI all of the time. Also, the complex of closed mouth is more complicated than just “alphas are loud”, so boiling it down to the loudest and quietest types of the quadra doesn’t really make sense.
    I don't think I implied that silliness? Really, quadra has no "complex of the closed mouth". I'd even go further and say that quadra is an arbitrary type grouping that serves no useful purpose.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I don't think I implied that silliness? Really, quadra has no "complex of the closed mouth". I'd even go further and say that quadra is an arbitrary type grouping that serves no useful purpose.

    a.k.a. I/O
    In that case, do you not see any purpose in distinguishing between valued and unvalued functions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    In that case, do you not see any purpose in distinguishing between valued and unvalued functions?
    No. IEs are classifications; they don't constitute functions. And, one cannot value or undervalue information control systems but you can their products.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I have to disagree on this one. Si doesn't "recall" anything. It simply means sensing the finer, deeper sensations that the external world evokes on the inside. And it is not about "events" either.
    An event could be as simple as eating breakfast one morning. Re-call is just memory retrieval. That it

    Si is a perceiving function. It gathers information. Si can "recall" information from an "event". I'm not saying Si IS an event or that Si IS re-call. "Event" and "re-call" are simply tools used to accurately assist Si communicate what's already on the inside to the outside.

    Yes. Si is about the external world effecting the internal state but Si also communicates. Without recalling a particular event an Si-ego may as well be mute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    No. IEs are classifications; they don't constitute functions. And, one cannot value or undervalue information control systems but you can their products.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Valued/ unvalued is one of your basic functional dichotomies. You value your program, creative, mobilizing, and suggestive functions. This is Model A stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    An event could be as simple as eating breakfast one morning. Re-call is just memory retrieval. That it

    Si is a perceiving function. It gathers information. Si can "recall" information from an "event". I'm not saying Si IS an event or that Si IS re-call. "Event" and "re-call" are simply tools used to accurately assist Si communicate what's already on the inside to the outside.

    Yes. Si is about the external world effecting the internal state but Si also communicates. Without recalling a particular event an Si-ego may as well be mute.
    There is no memory retrieval in Si. Si doesn't communicate anything either. For that you need other functions. So it goes beyond Si.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    There is no memory retrieval in Si. Si doesn't communicate anything either. For that you need other functions. So it goes beyond Si.
    Sorry dude. I think that's bullshit. If you wanna get technical, the brain contains memories. Human beings communicate messages regardless of function.

    Not sure why you feel the need to analyze Si so tough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    The quadra complex articles are my favorite in all of socionics, even if they are “a theory only of Stratiyevskaya”.
    Me too! They're great!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    An event could be as simple as eating breakfast one morning. Re-call is just memory retrieval. That it

    Si is a perceiving function. It gathers information. Si can "recall" information from an "event". I'm not saying Si IS an event or that Si IS re-call. "Event" and "re-call" are simply tools used to accurately assist Si communicate what's already on the inside to the outside.

    Yes. Si is about the external world effecting the internal state but Si also communicates. Without recalling a particular event an Si-ego may as well be mute.
    I think Si being specifically linked with memory is an MBTI thing, not socionics. Since you call it a "perceiving function," I sense that's where you're coming from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    I think Si being specifically linked with memory is an MBTI thing, not socionics. Since you call it a "perceiving function," I sense that's where you're coming from?
    Not exactly. Si as a perceiving function is the "p" in ISFp & ISTp.
    Ti as a judging function is the "j" in ISTj & INTj

    I'd say Si is a way of receiving information not memory.

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    Brother you could've at least linked it for us old-timers

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Brother you could've at least linked it for us old-timers
    Good point-
    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya

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    I agree with most of it but I really hate the parts where apparently alpha hogs air because we can't stand to let others speak. I find this kind of behavior awful and only do it if I have no other choice. There is a natural give and take in good conversation and some people need to learn to shut up to give the conversation room to breathe.

    On the other hand.. I can be bad about this if I think the conversation is going too slowly too, so

    There's a lot of stuff in that article that I'm sure hasn't helped stop witch hunts over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    I think Si being specifically linked with memory is an MBTI thing, not socionics. Since you call it a "perceiving function," I sense that's where you're coming from?

    I would say ILI's tend to be walking diaries.

    Anyway

    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
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    Try to tell an ILE to shut up, see what happens

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    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    Try to tell an ILE to shut up, see what happens
    I have. They usually stop, laugh, and then pick up right where they left off—unless they know they really fucked up, in which case they stop, laugh, apologize, and then make jokes about it for the next 14 days (“lol poptart remember when you told me to shut up yesterday lololol”)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    Valued/ unvalued is one of your basic functional dichotomies. You value your program, creative, mobilizing, and suggestive functions. This is Model A stuff.
    Yes, it has some parallels with the Ford Model A; I wonder why people would still be using them except for the nostalgia.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    Not exactly. Si as a perceiving function is the "p" in ISFp & ISTp.
    Ti as a judging function is the "j" in ISTj & INTj

    I'd say Si is a way of receiving information not memory.
    I think Model A is based on information metabolism so in fact all 8 elements are some kinds of information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CR400AF View Post
    I think Model A is based on information metabolism so in fact all 8 elements are some kinds of information.
    There's a difference between information metabolism & the process of actually receiving information.

    If you're confused look up the words "metabolism" and "receive" in Wiktionary

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