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Thread: Do you find the Concept of Quadras Limiting?

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    Default Do you find the Concept of Quadras Limiting?

    I am an extremely open-minded person. (That could actually be the flaw in my self-typing or with the theory.) I am therefore open to talking to people from all quadras - if they have something intelligent or interesting to say. That (I think) is my problem with Se: they are inherently stubborn, and it is impossible to change their mind or open them up to new ideas - but I am still able to get through to many of them. That I also feel is the flaw with the theory: the idea is almost to stick with your own quadra all (or most) of the time. As someone very open-minded, it bothers me that I can't converse with people from (e.g.) the Gamma quadra. For instance, ILIs are very intelligent and I often like what they have to say. ILEs as well. Should I just close down communication with all ILIs because we aren't from the same quadra? I think that idea stinks. It is not very open-minded to me.

    Anyway, does anyone else find this whole notion behind socionics limiting in some way?

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    I am also open to talk with members of every quadra. I am open to talk with all types including Se egos, however, I am not open to all people, individualistic characteristics are important. I think every type adds a different kind of understanding and perspective. If any Ne ego wants to understand the perspective of Se egos, it would be easier to grasp if you spent time with your kindred (if you are rational) or look-a-like (if you are irrational).

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    Seriously? Your interpretation of Socionics is very strange. I don't know where you're getting these ideas from.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)

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    Are you ILE? My ILE buddy is a lot like this- he likes to get everybody involved and has these naive ideals that we can all just get along (cuz ESE is his activity after all).

    Probably cuz he's a thinking type with Fi polr and doesn't fully understand or comprehend (or want to) the little emotional things that happen between people that make others not want to be around each other. In his naive ILE head he's like 'just get over it so we can go back to talking about all this cool Ne stuff!' but it doesn't work that way- he needs to pay attention to the Fi grudge holding side of things more. And yeah Fi can be very dark and sadistic- like horribly so- and ILEs especially run away from it cuz they are deathly afraid of sadistic Fi just like IEIs are afraid of sadistic Te.

    It's a nice thought- but people will always like being in groups that are us vs them and we aren't just going to sit around the table logically debating things in this pleasant way without feelings and values getting involved. ((I still like his idealism in ways because, I do think 'people should be nicer' and all that....))

    ILIs when they are healthy are very knowledgeable, useful and practical- however when Unhealthy they are just these sadistic bullies that can't get along with anybody for the life of them cuz their Fe is so bad.

    The kinda funny and ironic thing is that if you are Alpha, you probably naively think you can be a Gamma's friend but it's not going to work the other way around because Gammas suck. =D Gammas really like their little in-group thing they have going on so it will be one-sided. And c'mon- all the quadra war stuff was started by a Gamma here so you can't tell me I'm wrong. Then you yourself are probably going to get annoyed at them and find them too snobby- and want to be around other Alphas again mostly. So you will end up proving yourself wrong intellectually - but you also won't care because it will be more emotionally satisfying for you.

    Fe is like 'AoE healing' but Fi is single target healing - and so if ur more focused on Fi you will want to heal your own kind more than heal others.

    You shouldn't really close down communication with anybody- but I mean, be careful of the feeling/heart side of stuff too cuz that's where a lot of the revenge schemes can start from lol. Some people are only going to ever be at a 'business distance' and that's perfectly fine.

    Then again I''ve been told by others I view people too darkly but I just feel it's more realistic. Even when it seems like I'm cutely idealinzg ppl and giving them rpg classes I'm also like looking at their shadow side at all times for my own protection and cuz it's interesting to me and it's part of my refusal to be manipulated by anything cuz I'm the one that manipulates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Seriously? Your interpretation of Socionics is very strange. I don't know where you're getting these ideas from.
    Isn't that what's implied by the theory? i.e., if you're Alpha, Alpha relations are good and Gamma relations are bad, so move toward Alphas and stay away from the Gammas... Isn't that the basic idea of the theory?

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    Itr doesn't prescribe behaviors or tell you who you should talk to. That's something people do afterwards. I prefer to avoid that kind of approach and conceptualization of the theory because it leaves an extremely bad taste in my mouth and no mathematical framework is gonna be the boss of me. People could be more consoled by the idea that being yourself will be good with the right people? But I guess that would remove the sense of agency they get from having typology in their pocket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I am an extremely open-minded person. (That could actually be the flaw in my self-typing or with the theory.) I am therefore open to talking to people from all quadras - if they have something intelligent or interesting to say. That (I think) is my problem with Se: they are inherently stubborn, and it is impossible to change their mind or open them up to new ideas - but I am still able to get through to many of them. That I also feel is the flaw with the theory: the idea is almost to stick with your own quadra all (or most) of the time. As someone very open-minded, it bothers me that I can't converse with people from (e.g.) the Gamma quadra. For instance, ILIs are very intelligent and I often like what they have to say. ILEs as well. Should I just close down communication with all ILIs because we aren't from the same quadra? I think that idea stinks. It is not very open-minded to me.

    Anyway, does anyone else find this whole notion behind socionics limiting in some way?
    Nah. I'd say you're extrapolating & creating boundaries on your own. Like, my conflict relations are hella fucking awesome people but I'd factually be a dumb motherfucker to put a ring on it.

    Socionics just studies the spectrum of comfort that reality has created between the types. Keep your mind completely open & have a completely open bottle booze with you also

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    Isn't that what's implied by the theory? i.e., if you're Alpha, Alpha relations are good and Gamma relations are bad, so move toward Alphas and stay away from the Gammas... Isn't that the basic idea of the theory?
    Some people seem to take it that way. I read it more as communication being more difficult in some ways across quadra lines. Since you mentioned Alphas and Gammas - I don’t really have anyone I’d consider a “friend” these days, but I’ve gotten closer with some Gammas than with other people. These quasi-friendships with Gammas however usually come from shared experiences and interests, less than a sense that they’re particularly fun to talk with. Not that I’m saying they’re objectively boring. They just have different values and this causes a difference in expression and cognition. With most other Alphas on the other hand, we don’t really have to have many interests in common to get along decently.

    But inter-quadra communication isn’t an insurmountable difficulty at all, and I don’t see how it benefits anyone to “stay away” from their opposite quadra. Possibly for a romantic relationship it’s best to find someone you have very few hitches in getting along with, but in all other cases, I’d say the principle that it’s good to be able to understand and get along with people who have differing views and values generally holds fast.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quadras are only types grouped by their valued and supplemental functions.
    So you should ask about supplemental functions instead. You doubt in IR theory by this.

    Limiting are Jung types. It's psyche distortion which also creates IR effects.
    It needs to change Jung type or its expression to change IR effects for you.

    Among hypothetic ways which can do this are:
    1) meditations - super concentration on something what suppresses all other mind conscious processes. Some of meditations establish "void" state, some may relate to religious symbols and ideas as God in monotheism. This consciousness suppression reduces suppression of weaker functions and they become more equal in such trance states. Mb by a training it's possibly to reduce Jung type for when you return to common mind state.
    2) To join minds with a human of duality type in love/friendship state. This shifts your mind to the side of weak functions (as those are valued you have lesser inner opposing to accept this influence) and so reduces Jung type.
    1 and 2 mb matched to some degree.

    Possible side effect of the said change can be:
    1) reduced abbilities related to strong functions. Jung type helps to use strong functions as has permanent readiness to use them - so you need lesser efforts to concentrate the mind on them. In more equal state this will be alike to start with lesser initial speed.
    2) reduced abbility to differentiate information of weakened functions - nuances will be harder to be processed. for example, you are hurted by a dog and then feel irrational fear from all of them. and lesser differentiation between different functions alike in synesthesia, as for the mind they become more similar. for example will appear higher tendency to trust logically (T) to what you like higher by emotions (F)
    3) activation of archaic unconscious mind processes which are not good conscious in common, which were suppresed by developing modern mind. some of them can be useful, but other not. so may appear a problem to integrate and to control something what may come

    It's good if it will be same with Jung functions as with left and right hands development. If you'll develop left hand to be used with similar skills - you'll not reduce your skills with right hand. It needs a research and practice to find how to solve one problem and do not make other ones. For example, not anyone will agree to become dumber and to live by simpler occupations as way to feel better himself and with some people. And mb not anyone will like to deal with unconsciousnes contents alike telepathic compassion (with lesser possibility to ignore what other people feel to you) when you need higher concentration and not be distracted by opposing people near, when need be strict or even violent with people (as in army). It may need to study additional methods how to control new traits and do not loose the good what mind allowed before.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    But doesn't the theory state that each intertype can bring you something? I've never read that you shoud stick to your quadra and never talk to someone outside of it.
    To me it's all about balance. If all of your friends are from the opposite quadra then there is something wrong 100% (that's my opinion). But having a mix of all the quadraqs in your life can be a great thing. For example, you can learn a lot from your benefactor, supervisee of even your super-ego.

    And personally, if most of the people that I hate are deltas; I also know some deltas that I really like.

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    No not at all, along with duality this was the concept that finally pushed me to learn about Socionics after seeing the word floating around online for a couple years.

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    nah i see quadra dynamics play out all the time so i dont really have any skepticism towards it. dimensionality on the other hand...

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    There is other small groups such as clubs in which you are in the same group with ILIs.

    Quadra is only one of the 35 small groups. Although it is considered one of the most important group, there are other groups and socionics is not saying that you can't communicate with other quadras.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    Isn't that what's implied by the theory? i.e., if you're Alpha, Alpha relations are good and Gamma relations are bad, so move toward Alphas and stay away from the Gammas... Isn't that the basic idea of the theory?
    No. The idea is that there are 35 different small groups and each small group has its own merits. Quadra is the most important one, but it doesn't tell you to stay away from gammas. Although it implies that it's better for you, an alpha, not to marry a gamma person. It also implies that alphas and gammas have different historical missions. But there are other types of relationships.

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    Just start thinking in terms of probability of meeting someone in your quadra multiplied by the chance making friends with them.


    You can find this by friends/number of people ypu know times the chance they're in your quadra, or number of people you know are in your quadra.

    Now, I doubt you know for sure of people in your quadra. If all your friends are in your quadra, and everyone you dislike are not, then you are probably aristocratic. That's a tangent for another day though.

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    I wasn't aware that we were supposed to stay in our quadras, so I wouldn't have said I found it limiting. As you describe it though, yeah, that's definitely very restrictive. I think it's important to be exposed to all sorts of views whether they're from your quadra or not. I do find there are definite trends though along quadra lines. Other than my own (beta) quadra, I generally find alphas to be the easiest to get along with. Gammas tend to be interesting, but I feel very blind to their Te-Fi cognition. Like I just don't feel like I "get" them really though my interactions with them I would call positive. They're just a bit confusing to me at times. Interactions with deltas though very often just feel completely awkward to me. Not always, but just much of the time. ISTps and ENFps are less of a problem for me, but ESTjs and INFjs very often make me feel weird. I'm sorry, it's nothing personal and I love y'all rational deltas, but I just don't get you at all lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    I wasn't aware that we were supposed to stay in our quadras, so I wouldn't have said I found it limiting. As you describe it though, yeah, that's definitely very restrictive. I think it's important to be exposed to all sorts of views whether they're from your quadra or not. I do find there are definite trends though along quadra lines. Other than my own (beta) quadra, I generally find alphas to be the easiest to get along with. Gammas tend to be interesting, but I feel very blind to their Te-Fi cognition. Like I just don't feel like I "get" them really though my interactions with them I would call positive. They're just a bit confusing to me at times. Interactions with deltas though very often just feel completely awkward to me. Not always, but just much of the time. ISTps and ENFps are less of a problem for me, but ESTjs and INFjs very often make me feel weird. I'm sorry, it's nothing personal and I love y'all rational deltas, but I just don't get you at all lol
    That's interesting to me. For me, Betas are also the easiest to get along with outside Alpha, possibly excepting SLEs. But the energy of the quadra can be a little too "hard" in a way, like there's a tendency to revel in the unpleasant and disparage the pleasant; that tendency I don't like very much.

    Gammas just tend to seem distant; usually they don't seem interested in me, and I tend not to find them too interesting in turn. Occasionally I've sparked good conversations with ILIs, but eventually they fizzle out. ESIs are nice and I tend to get along pretty well with them; they just tend to feel...somewhat boring, in a way; I tend to feel a little restless after spending too much time with them. SEEs it can be difficult to communicate with or find much in common with.

    Deltas give me a strange feeling of self-limitation, like they try to construct bubbles around themselves and their conceptions and won't ever voluntarily step past them. SLIs are the worst in this regard. They give me almost a feeling of being machines: they find a routine, consider it good, and will continue it indefinitely, never thinking, let alone desiring, to do anything else. EIIs tend to have a really awfully prosaic worldview that's depressing to hear -- you don't expect a random person off the street to be very insightful, so it would be forgivable for them to have incoherent or misguided opinions, but hearing a stream of banalities pour from the lips of quite introspective and often quite insightful people is somehow much worse. Alain de Boton is someone I consider EII, for instance. It's a little similar with IEEs; despite the flood of Ne, it just doesn't seem to...go anywhere; they have a strange way of returning their thoughts back to where they began, which is difficult for me to describe, and seems to me quite different than the way ILEs or even LIIs use their Ne. I've also noticed they like to very confidently give advice, and this advice is almost without exception terrible. I tend to like them at first but tend to feel agitated after spending too much time with them.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 06-03-2021 at 12:22 AM.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    Isn't that what's implied by the theory? i.e., if you're Alpha, Alpha relations are good and Gamma relations are bad, so move toward Alphas and stay away from the Gammas... Isn't that the basic idea of the theory?
    And that's what people are doing all the time without any knowledge of Socionics, because same quadra just feels more comfortable especially in intimate relationships. But that doesn't mean that you can't enjoy the (occasional) company of an individual of opposite quadra. The person could be interesting, you could be compatible in other ways, or you might share some personal history together etc. There are tons of individual factors that could pull you together.

    Quadras is just a fact. It doesn't limit anything.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)

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    @FreelancePoliceman
    I find what you say about betas reveling in the unpleasant kind of interesting. This wasn't something I ever thought about before coming to Socionics, but now I hear the idea that betas are somehow harsher quite often, and I guess it's true if I compare myself to my very alpha parents (SEI dad and ESE mom). I thought it was just me doing the edgy teenager thing, but when I was around 12 or so I got really into pop-punk/metalcore/emo-scene music and culture. Even before that I always liked music that was somehow aggressive, and rather than growing out of that as I've gotten older I just go for heavier and heavier hitting stuff. Totally different from my dad who likes melancholy country music or my mom who's into classical, jazz, and a lot of pop music. With movies as well there's a similar split. My mom in particular really seems to NEED the movie to have a "happy ending" whereas I often find too happy of an ending to be kind of unsatisfying. Even if the movie isn't specifically a "sad movie" I want it to make at least a little effort to hurt me. I think it's cause I go through every day acting happy and really beaming a lot of positive energy outwards regardless of how I actually feel, so for me happiness doesn't feel so much "positive" but rather feels "neutral". Happy is the default so it's not very interesting. When I talk in depth with people "pleasant" is a great place to start, but I'm going to feel like we're not really connecting if we don't at some point start sharing the tragedies of our lives lol

    P.S. I just realized I also tend to find romantic relationships more satisfying when they're quite dramatic. I know it's not a good thing, but I'm really attracted to troubled people and tragic backstories. I feel I've been doing a good job at not getting into these sorts of relationships since I graduated college, but the temptation is real
    猫が生き甲斐

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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    @FreelancePoliceman
    I find what you say about betas reveling in the unpleasant kind of interesting. This wasn't something I ever thought about before coming to Socionics, but now I hear the idea that betas are somehow harsher quite often, and I guess it's true if I compare myself to my very alpha parents (SEI dad and ESE mom). I thought it was just me doing the edgy teenager thing, but when I was around 12 or so I got really into pop-punk/metalcore/emo-scene music and culture. Even before that I always liked music that was somehow aggressive, and rather than growing out of that as I've gotten older I just go for heavier and heavier hitting stuff. Totally different from my dad who likes melancholy country music or my mom who's into classical, jazz, and a lot of pop music. With movies as well there's a similar split. My mom in particular really seems to NEED the movie to have a "happy ending" whereas I often find too happy of an ending to be kind of unsatisfying. Even if the movie isn't specifically a "sad movie" I want it to make at least a little effort to hurt me. I think it's cause I go through every day acting happy and really beaming a lot of positive energy outwards regardless of how I actually feel, so for me happiness doesn't feel so much "positive" but rather feels "neutral". Happy is the default so it's not very interesting. When I talk in depth with people "pleasant" is a great place to start, but I'm going to feel like we're not really connecting if we don't at some point start sharing the tragedies of our lives lol

    P.S. I just realized I also tend to find romantic relationships more satisfying when they're quite dramatic. I know it's not a good thing, but I'm really attracted to troubled people and tragic backstories. I feel I've been doing a good job at not getting into these sorts of relationships since I graduated college, but the temptation is real
    wow.
    I guess that's where quadra values truly appear.
    I tend to act nice and all but it's fake, I'm buying peace because I find it valuable. If I feel I must be fake to buy peace, I cannot have respect for the person.
    And well, I can be genuinely nice, I'm just a human after all, but it has to come from the heart.
    Tbh, I think the fakest people are those faking Fe, not Fe egos. They mean the Fe. Even if I can't understand how.
    Sorry, this may be uncalled for, I just can't understand why anyone has typed me IEI after reading most IEI stuff. It's so strange to me.

    And more on the actual topic: no one is restricted to a quadra or good IR, it would be hell if we were. We need to learn from each other to grow and become both more open and able to set up boundaries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I am an extremely open-minded person. (That could actually be the flaw in my self-typing or with the theory.)
    Define extremely


    I am therefore open to talking to people from all quadras - if they have something intelligent or interesting to say. That (I think) is my problem with Se: they are inherently stubborn, and it is impossible to change their mind or open them up to new ideas - but I am still able to get through to many of them. That I also feel is the flaw with the theory: the idea is almost to stick with your own quadra all (or most) of the time. As someone very open-minded, it bothers me that I can't converse with people from (e.g.) the Gamma quadra. For instance, ILIs are very intelligent and I often like what they have to say. ILEs as well. Should I just close down communication with all ILIs because we aren't from the same quadra? I think that idea stinks. It is not very open-minded to me.

    Anyway, does anyone else find this whole notion behind socionics limiting in some way?
    I think theory should fit reality not the opposite. Besides romance Styles, do You have some piece of theory that that supports the idea that You can't talk to, interact with or get along with other Quadras?

    I find usually that this idea comes more from people's experiences shared in this forum that from mere theory.

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    @flowers and sugar You're probably not IEI. I have little reason for saying this beyond a vibe, so don't take this as meaning much, but you remind me more of my EII sister. Also thank you for recognizing Fe as not fake. It's not fake in the slightest and I get really irritated by people constantly implying that it's somehow less real. The way I feel about my Fe is that I go through life soaking up emotions like a sponge. They don't have to be my emotions, though some might be. Because I soak all these emotions up I NEED to emote them somehow eventually, but I do so carefully because I am keenly aware of how my emotional output impacts the environment around me. I regulate my emotions with precision as though I were managing a bunch of high pressure valves. Whatever I'm emoting is definitely real, but it's also measured to the situation as I see fit and since it's stored in liquid form old sadness has been mixed with new sadness so it may not all come from the same place in time. If I'm in a situation where I feel the energy needs to be maintained at a positive level then I'll keep sadness and anger and whatever else locked down pretty hard until I'm in a place which requires those emotions, and at that point I can let them out with a fair bit of force. This is why I believe I like tragic stories and rage-filled music, and probably why I was a theatre kid in school. I love excuses to open those valves without worrying. I can totally forget about locked down emotions though. It's not like they eat away at me if I leave them alone to build for a long time. Sometimes if I've gone too long without opening one up I underestimate the amount of pressure it's under and can respond to a situation with WAY more emotion than I meant to. This has surprised people a number of times, particularly when I responded suddenly with anger, because people basically never see me angry unless they go to karaoke with me lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    @FreelancePoliceman
    I find what you say about betas reveling in the unpleasant kind of interesting. This wasn't something I ever thought about before coming to Socionics, but now I hear the idea that betas are somehow harsher quite often, and I guess it's true if I compare myself to my very alpha parents (SEI dad and ESE mom). I thought it was just me doing the edgy teenager thing, but when I was around 12 or so I got really into pop-punk/metalcore/emo-scene music and culture. Even before that I always liked music that was somehow aggressive, and rather than growing out of that as I've gotten older I just go for heavier and heavier hitting stuff. Totally different from my dad who likes melancholy country music or my mom who's into classical, jazz, and a lot of pop music. With movies as well there's a similar split. My mom in particular really seems to NEED the movie to have a "happy ending" whereas I often find too happy of an ending to be kind of unsatisfying. Even if the movie isn't specifically a "sad movie" I want it to make at least a little effort to hurt me. I think it's cause I go through every day acting happy and really beaming a lot of positive energy outwards regardless of how I actually feel, so for me happiness doesn't feel so much "positive" but rather feels "neutral". Happy is the default so it's not very interesting. When I talk in depth with people "pleasant" is a great place to start, but I'm going to feel like we're not really connecting if we don't at some point start sharing the tragedies of our lives lol

    P.S. I just realized I also tend to find romantic relationships more satisfying when they're quite dramatic. I know it's not a good thing, but I'm really attracted to troubled people and tragic backstories. I feel I've been doing a good job at not getting into these sorts of relationships since I graduated college, but the temptation is real
    I relate to what you said about your mother wanting movies to be happy. I really dislike films or literature that seem to feature needless violence or edginess. I tolerate it if the piece is very compelling/interesting, but if it isn't, I find it really disgusting, almost on a spiritual level: the world is ugly and unpleasant enough as it is without trying to make it uglier and less pleasant. I don't like people who revel in their problems; I don't like "edgy" music; the goal of existence as I see it is to work toward human flourishing, and these things seem opposed to that.

    If I had a motto, it would be the famous excerpt from Pericles' funeral oration: "φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας." Roughly, "for we love beauty, but with good purpose; and we love wisdom in a way that does not make us soft." Beauty is good for its own sake -- not to cocoon yourself from nastiness by, but because humans are compelled to create it, and it's amenable to human growth.

    Edit: as far as stereotypes of quadras go, I guess what I wrote seems to fit the stereotype of Alphas liking pleasant things. Since I mentioned cocooning yourself from unpleasantness, the impression I get from Deltas is that they prefer that approach, and that's one of the differences between Alphas and Deltas -- Deltas stereotypically are more jaded and take a more "us-vs-them" attitude toward the rest of the world, while Alphas are stereotypically more evangelistic in spreading Si/Ne values, and survive in a hostile world not by reclusion to a safer space, but by an inner harshness that usually only manifests when necessary -- like a compromise between Delta and Beta values: a willingness to employ Beta methods to secure Delta goals, maybe? You see hints of what I call this "harshness" in Alpha humor, which can get quite dark, often even darker than Beta humor, though usually diverted to silliness or lightheartedness at the end of the joke, whereas Betas will often make the darkness or edginess the "point" of the joke. The NTs' verbal "harshness" is probably more obvious, but even the SFs are like this too: ESEs can really use their demonstrative Se when they have to, and SEIs despite often seeming timid often have a fascination with the macabre, or mix an element of "edginess" into their aesthetic sense. @MissDucki's avatar of a cute duckling holding a knife is an example of what I mean: "I am cute and like cute things and am naive and happy, but I will do all I can to murder you with my duck knife if you try to take advantage of me." Despite the stereotype of Alpha naivety, there's always a willingness to fight and get hands dirty when necessary, I think, in order to preserve these "naive" values of peace and pleasantness.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 06-03-2021 at 03:38 AM.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    the goal of existence as I see it is to work toward human flourishing
    This is one of those things that I agree with on paper, but feel that my psychology is inexorably opposed to. Like, I don't *want* anyone to suffer. That's obviously horrible. However, the idea of a utopia of any kind no matter how good is honestly the most depressing reality I can imagine. If there's nothing to fight against then I feel life loses all meaning and I'd absolutely need to escape into a harsh and cruel VR world if I lived in such a utopia. It's not that I wish for evil or that beta types want evil to flourish in the world, but rather that I think fundamentally beta psychologies are wired to fight against doom, and in a world where there is no doom to be fought we feel useless and can become destructive if we have nowhere to direct this. This is terrible, but growing up I often felt my family was too nice and often wished I grew up in an abusive household so I had something I could legitimately direct rebellion at. I feel a weird kind of jealousy towards people with troubled pasts. I probably wouldn't feel this way if I experienced what they did and I hope this doesn't come off as me glorifying the darkness in the world, but yeah... beta psychology definitely tends towards an edginess that I feel alphas and deltas in particular don't like. The gammas I've interacted with don't seem to mind it, but I'm less sure of how they feel about us betas
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    This is one of those things that I agree with on paper, but feel that my psychology is inexorably opposed to. Like, I don't *want* anyone to suffer. That's obviously horrible. However, the idea of a utopia of any kind no matter how good is honestly the most depressing reality I can imagine. If there's nothing to fight against then I feel life loses all meaning and I'd absolutely need to escape into a harsh and cruel VR world if I lived in such a utopia. It's not that I wish for evil or that beta types want evil to flourish in the world, but rather that I think fundamentally beta psychologies are wired to fight against doom, and in a world where there is no doom to be fought we feel useless and can become destructive if we have nowhere to direct this. This is terrible, but growing up I often felt my family was too nice and often wished I grew up in an abusive household so I had something I could legitimately direct rebellion at. I feel a weird kind of jealousy towards people with troubled pasts. I probably wouldn't feel this way if I experienced what they did and I hope this doesn't come off as me glorifying the darkness in the world, but yeah... beta psychology definitely tends towards an edginess that I feel alphas and deltas in particular don't like. The gammas I've interacted with don't seem to mind it, but I'm less sure of how they feel about us betas
    I don't see the complete elimination of problems as possible or even desirable, but the ideal society to me would be one in which people are free to attempt to shape the world to their desires as best as possible. Because people have different tastes, and because more beauty is always possible, this wouldn't result in stagnancy; old works and ideas should be constantly revised, or even destroyed or forgotten to make place for new ones to suit the varying needs and desires of people at different times. There are also many problems which can't be solved once and for all but have to be encountered individually again and again: disease, injury, aging, death, and even the process of maturing. There are always genuine problems to be solved: even a society that's solved all other problems, and left people like yourself discontent, would thereby pose its own problem that it would be necessary to address.

    Re. what you said about gammas, my impression is that their attitude is to be jaded and to accept the harshness of the world -- so they don't see it either as something to be celebrated or something that can really be fought against. Instead they just try to make the most of it. To the extent I understand their sense of humor, it seems like inverted Alpha humor: instead of trying to provoke a sense of absurd disconnect with reality, it's more of a faint "huh, the world is weird." I'd guess they tend to see Betas as a little immature, like boys who dare each other to drink a little can of beer, and act like this revolutionizes their world, while for an adult drinking beer -- or for Gammas, accepting the darkness of the world -- is just a normal Saturday.

    I'm less sure what Gammas tend to think about Alphas, though.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 06-03-2021 at 04:09 AM.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I don't see the complete elimination of problems as possible or even desirable
    Right, and I wasn't necessarily implying you were. Just trying to take inspiration from alpha quadra's tendency towards comfort and exaggerate it so that I could more easily compare it with an exaggeration of my own quadra's tendency towards harshness. I feel like exaggerating a bit is useful for illustrative purposes. It's not like in my day to day life I'm freaking out over not having battles to fight. I think as an IEI my destructiveness is very inwardly oriented anyways. It's more of a "Things are getting boring, I'd better make a series of bad decisions to spice things up!" sort of thing. I'm sure SLEs have more of a tendency to direct this sort of frustration outward.

    Your comment on gammas makes a lot of sense. They certainly don't seem to take any cathartic enjoyment in wretchedness the way betas are apt to do, yet they come off as way harsher than alphas or deltas do. Interesting point
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    Right, and I wasn't necessarily implying you were. Just trying to take inspiration from alpha quadra's tendency towards comfort and exaggerate it so that I could more easily compare it with an exaggeration of my own quadra's tendency towards harshness. I feel like exaggerating a bit is useful for illustrative purposes. It's not like in my day to day life I'm freaking out over not having battles to fight. I think as an IEI my destructiveness is very inwardly oriented anyways. It's more of a "Things are getting boring, I'd better make a series of bad decisions to spice things up!" sort of thing. I'm sure SLEs have more of a tendency to direct this sort of frustration outward.

    Your comment on gammas makes a lot of sense. They certainly don't seem to take any cathartic enjoyment in wretchedness the way betas are apt to do, yet they come off as way harsher than alphas or deltas do. Interesting point
    I get it -- I'm doing the same thing; just spitballing, since it's fun to make generalizations.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    @FreelancePoliceman Yeah, I really like hearing your thoughts on this stuff. We clearly have very different mental worlds, but I always find your input really interesting. My conversations with my LII cousin are super similar to this
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    @FreelancePoliceman Yeah, I really like hearing your thoughts on this stuff. We clearly have very different mental worlds, but I always find your input really interesting. My conversations with my LII cousin are super similar to this
    Thanks! I think I usually use this forum as an outlet for expression of different thoughts, since it's helpful for me to bounce them off other people, so I don't know that I'm ever too committed to anything I say. I also tend not to spend as much time as I ought articulating myself as well as I might; as a result I always tend to suspect that most of what I write here comes off as an incoherent jumble of words. So it's nice to hear my muddle of thoughts can interest someone.

    I'm curious re. your phrasing of having "different internal worlds." Did you mean anything by that, or was it just a figure of speech? I'm curious if you could explain what you meant. You can take it to another thread if you don't think it's relevant to this one. I'm not very good at understanding how other people think, so talk like that tends to fly over my head, but it interests me.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    your phrasing of having "different internal worlds." Did you mean anything by that, or was it just a figure of speech?
    I suppose I was referring to respective internal spaces that we occupy. I don't know how much other people do this - it could be literally everyone, or perhaps it's just a me thing, I don't know - but I definitely perceive myself as a character inhabiting a world of my own creation in my head, and the things that happen in my external life affect the stories that play out in my internal one. In my imagined world I live in one of the towers attached to a big old Victorian style house that my whole family lives in. This is because all my extended family including all my cousins lived really close together my entire childhood such that my cousins feel to me more like siblings. I perceived myself as inhabiting a different world than most of them probably because betas are rare in my family and I'm a supposed "aristocratic type" so I've always imagined my room to be one of the towers. Everyone else also has their place in the house which may move around relative to the drama that plays out in real life. Currently I'm away from this house since I'm in Japan and I imagine the house I live in now to be a floating island far away in the sky somewhere near the great cave in the ground where the sun emerges from... Like I could go on and on about this, but effectively I live a parallel fantasy life in my head that I daydream in which is directly related to my real-life situation to some degree or another. I feel very locked into this internal world and it's movements and it can affect my moods and behaviour externally. I'm not sure how much other's do this, but yeah. I just get the sense that your internal world is not at all like my emo adventure fantasy. Hopefully this doesn't make me sound too insane lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    I suppose I was referring to respective internal spaces that we occupy. I don't know how much other people do this - it could be literally everyone, or perhaps it's just a me thing, I don't know - but I definitely perceive myself as a character inhabiting a world of my own creation in my head, and the things that happen in my external life affect the stories that play out in my internal one. In my imagined world I live in one of the towers attached to a big old Victorian style house that my whole family lives in. This is because all my extended family including all my cousins lived really close together my entire childhood such that my cousins feel to me more like siblings. I perceived myself as inhabiting a different world than most of them probably because betas are rare in my family and I'm a supposed "aristocratic type" so I've always imagined my room to be one of the towers. Everyone else also has their place in the house which may move around relative to the drama that plays out in real life. Currently I'm away from this house since I'm in Japan and I imagine the house I live in now to be a floating island far away in the sky somewhere near the great cave in the ground where the sun emerges from... Like I could go on and on about this, but effectively I live a parallel fantasy life in my head that I daydream in which is directly related to my real-life situation to some degree or another. I feel very locked into this internal world and it's movements and it can affect my moods and behaviour externally. I'm not sure how much other's do this, but yeah. I just get the sense that your internal world is not at all like my emo adventure fantasy. Hopefully this doesn't make me sound too insane lol
    Not at all! Actually, I do relate. When I was a child and not in a great situation with my family, I'd typically retreat into very vivid fantasies similar to what you describe. Mine tended to feature themes of being trapped, imprisoned, or about to die. For instance, one of the earliest fantasies I remember, from around the time I was 5 or 6, was that my soul was a great plant, overrunning an entire garden constructed for it alone with giant, flat leaves, thick stems, and vines and tendrils all emanating from a large central core twisted with wood and the weight of its own biomass, but not weakened by it. What did weaken it, or me, was exposure to my family; I felt more shaken and scared the more I was yelled at, and felt that when it continued my roots were being pulled up or my branches were being chopped off. I would die, internally or spiritually, and never find myself again, and forget that I once had a soul. So, I had a choice: let myself be killed, or inject an anesthetic poison myself into the plant, to weaken it and dull its sensitivity so it could survive what was happening to it, and maybe someday it could regrow -- at the cost of perhaps killing the plant itself. I made this second choice, and envisioned injecting poison into the plant/myself, dulling my cares and stopping myself from feeling.

    At night I would often fantasize before bed -- I have to get into a certain headspace to be able to sleep, and especially to sleep well; fantasizing helps my mind become flexible enough to enter that state. I remember I often imagined being killed: in different scenarios and for different reasons, but I preferred to envision ones in which my death did some good for someone else, for instance being sacrificed to a god, or cannibalized, or killed by a nature spirit as an effort to cleanse the world of human pollution, or eaten by starving wolves. I think this came from a feeling that my life was pointless, and would never be anything but pointless, so I might find redemption in death.

    Dreams were even more vivid. As a teenager I dreamed that I was a girl (I often envisioned myself as female, or as an animal, or as a disembodied spirit, I think because I didn't really have a stable self-identity) blessed with the ability to send explosive pulse waves through things, but imprisoned and fettered by something that prevented this ability from manifesting. That dream came back to me a few times, and my efforts in that dream were directed at escaping the prison by collaborating with the other prisoners. Another recurring dream was that I was in a cage in a butcher shop, with a girl and some younger children we tried to comfort as best we could, all for sale as meat. We might go for years without being sold, but eventually when someone was, they would be butchered by the owner and sold. Myself and the other girl were trying to find peace with our situation. This dream really made a vivid impression on me for some reason and kept recurring in my thoughts for years.

    But as I said, even fantasies not connected with dreams featured these kinds of themes. Fantasies which weren't quite so dark usually featured my omnipotence or omniscience -- what I would do if I could rewrite the laws of reality; or what I would do if I could shapeshift and live forever -- would I exist as a rock for thousands of years? What would it be like? Would I abandon human morality? Would it be acceptable for me to kill people, if I weren't human --? And here my thoughts would slip back into those earlier kinds of themes, lol. I also had a fascination with the supernatural. I wanted badly to experience anything out of the ordinary or unusual; I also wanted to know things that no one else knew. I kept thinking that if a demon came and offered me secret knowledge in exchange for my allegiance, I'd probably accept his offer, and want to keep my side of the bargain as well, out of sheer gratitude -- I felt guilty about this, often. I was raised as an evangelical, and so often thought about religious themes, trying to reconcile what I heard and read about God, and what my experience of the world told me. I didn't like the concept of an immanent, ever present God who damned people for every slight mistake; even given the possibility of redemption, I felt that this attitude of forcing others to conform to one's will was despicable and unworthy of the supreme person. I preferred to believe God was like me: content to just watch things develop, simply out of curiosity. I watched ants and other bugs often as a child, and didn't like to interfere much with their lives, at least not in any ways that would dramatically affect their existence (I'd do things like take a caterpillar and feel it and let it walk on me, but then I'd put it back where I found it). This conception of God felt more reassuring, and in accordance with the world I recognized: issues of morality weren't ultimately important, life and death were nothing unusual or fearful, there probably was no afterlife, but I took great comfort in the thought that the natural world would always continue on, and that I had a place in it. But I also tried to envision different sorts of God, with different sorts of motivations, and tried to understand what they would want.

    I mention all this just to try to present different examples of the kinds of fantasies I had, rather than a to present a comprehensive list. Describing them all would take a book and more introspection than is probably healthy.

    I also had sexual fantasies, but they were pretty...unique; I've not really heard of much that's similar to them, and I'm not sure they'd be appropriate to discuss.

    Now I generally don't fantasize so much or so intently. I felt all throughout my childhood that I had to hide my real thoughts and who I "really" was, so I think I developed something of a split, disjointed personality. For the past few years I've been trying to repair the damage by abolishing the distinction between inner and outer -- becoming wholly one person, and bringing my thoughts and actions into consistency with each other. Not that I don't still imagine things, but I think more of my psychic energy is now directed at trying to change my situation in the external world than dealing with imagined scenarios. But in particular, I often imagine conversations with people (who are themselves usually imaginary). These conversations are pretty constant whenever I don't have anything else to think about, and they serve as a vehicle to guide my thoughts or generate new ideas, though the actual process of thinking, as in solving problems, doesn't take happen in words (as I've heard people other describe; my sister says a voice narrates her thoughts to her -- as if it speaks her thought, then it occurs -- which seems bizarre to me). The process of thinking might involve some elements of fantasy/imagination, but it's quite difficult to describe or even conceptualize clearly (I don't think brains are wired to be able to clearly subjectively experience the process of thinking), and it's getting late, so I won't try to explain that right now, at least. Sometimes my thoughts also wander into creating a backstory for the other participant in my conversations: what might guide them to hold the beliefs and attitudes they hold? I think that the other non-sexual daydreams I have tend to be on possible futures I could experience, and what choices I'd have to make to realize them.

    It always feels weird to describe my internal thoughts and memories, so I'm not sure if any of this seems...off. It's hard to evaluate what I'm saying when talking/writing about things like this, which is also probably why I wrote so much. I hope it's at least interesting.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 06-03-2021 at 09:14 AM.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    It's probably more like "interact with whoever you want, but here are some things to watch out for." So in some respects it does advise limiting your interaction, but not to the point of complete avoidance.

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    It is your choice
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
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    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    @FreelancePoliceman
    I find what you say about betas reveling in the unpleasant kind of interesting. This wasn't something I ever thought about before coming to Socionics, but now I hear the idea that betas are somehow harsher quite often, and I guess it's true if I compare myself to my very alpha parents (SEI dad and ESE mom). I thought it was just me doing the edgy teenager thing, but when I was around 12 or so I got really into pop-punk/metalcore/emo-scene music and culture. Even before that I always liked music that was somehow aggressive, and rather than growing out of that as I've gotten older I just go for heavier and heavier hitting stuff. Totally different from my dad who likes melancholy country music or my mom who's into classical, jazz, and a lot of pop music. With movies as well there's a similar split. My mom in particular really seems to NEED the movie to have a "happy ending" whereas I often find too happy of an ending to be kind of unsatisfying. Even if the movie isn't specifically a "sad movie" I want it to make at least a little effort to hurt me. I think it's cause I go through every day acting happy and really beaming a lot of positive energy outwards regardless of how I actually feel, so for me happiness doesn't feel so much "positive" but rather feels "neutral". Happy is the default so it's not very interesting. When I talk in depth with people "pleasant" is a great place to start, but I'm going to feel like we're not really connecting if we don't at some point start sharing the tragedies of our lives lol

    P.S. I just realized I also tend to find romantic relationships more satisfying when they're quite dramatic. I know it's not a good thing, but I'm really attracted to troubled people and tragic backstories. I feel I've been doing a good job at not getting into these sorts of relationships since I graduated college, but the temptation is real
    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    Right, and I wasn't necessarily implying you were. Just trying to take inspiration from alpha quadra's tendency towards comfort and exaggerate it so that I could more easily compare it with an exaggeration of my own quadra's tendency towards harshness. I feel like exaggerating a bit is useful for illustrative purposes. It's not like in my day to day life I'm freaking out over not having battles to fight. I think as an IEI my destructiveness is very inwardly oriented anyways. It's more of a "Things are getting boring, I'd better make a series of bad decisions to spice things up!" sort of thing. I'm sure SLEs have more of a tendency to direct this sort of frustration outward.

    Your comment on gammas makes a lot of sense. They certainly don't seem to take any cathartic enjoyment in wretchedness the way betas are apt to do, yet they come off as way harsher than alphas or deltas do. Interesting point
    I get these aren't to be taken super serious or anything but what you wrote sounded kinda interesting...

    If this is how you really view shit, might ask yourself why you do & whether or not that crap will make your life better or not

    No offense, man, but intentionally making bad decisions to spice things up sounds fucking dumb. There are usually consequences for that crap I honestly hope you can avoid Not sure, really, what romanticizing tragic circumstances will actually do for you but, fuck, it's your life. You do you.

  35. #35
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    @Stray Cat As I think I said, I'm referring more to my psychological tendencies as opposed to things I *actually* do. I'd say overall I've made pretty okay decisions up to this point, but I savour emotional pain when it comes my way cause I find it makes me feel connected to the world I don't really feel that connected to much of the time. I enjoy experiencing heartbreak vicariously through media so I don't have to experience it in real life. I'm pretty good at keeping all that stuff in my head and not letting it mess up my external life
    猫が生き甲斐

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Not at all! Actually, I do relate.
    Okay cool, that's not just me being totally detached from reality then

    What I find really interesting though is how in fantasy you seem render each emotional problem as it comes rather than incorporating it into a preexisting structure. Like you have a different set of symbols for different times in your life and troubles which you encountered. I really like your soul as a giant plant image in particular. That feels like such a unique rendering of the pressure you felt yourself under at that time.

    Your treatment of death is very noticeably different from mine as well. I can't say I've ever fantasized or dreamed of myself dying in service of the thing that killed me (like your being eaten by starving wolves example). My death fantasies were basically always about dying in a fight with something or someone. There was always a clear opponent who had no redeeming qualities in my mind (zombies, psycho murderers, mutant dinosaurs, etc.) who I clearly lost to and that was a bad thing for me. Like in those fantasies I was "supposed" to win, but didn't. I found it really fun to construct those fantasies in which I lost though. I kinda found losing and being killed to be weirdly relaxing. I always imagined whoever my crush at the time was to be clutching my lifeless body in tears. I liked the drama of it. Your death fantasies feel so much more wholesome. I kinda wish mine were like that, but I can't honestly say they were lol

    Also goddamn that butcher shop dream sounds brutal. It seems similar to the death fantasies with the cannibalistic element, but much more drawn out over time. Like it sounds more like a fantasy about the inevitability about some distant fate rather than focusing on the purpose of your death like the earlier ones seemed to.

    I got a chuckle out of the demon offering you infinite knowledge one, just cause of how amazingly stereotypical of NT types that sounds. Thanks for taking the time to share all these! It's really interesting to hear about your internal world like this
    猫が生き甲斐

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    ˚*・༓ ‧͙⁺˚*・༓ ‧͙⁺˚*・༓ ‧͙⁺˚ aster's Avatar
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    I didn’t read the previous comments, just so everyone knows

    but do I find the idea of Quadra limiting?

    yes and no. I mean anything can be limiting if you think of it as limiting.
    its just a category like other categories- race,
    sex, job. Preppy, emo.
    people are always going to be classified and try to stick with their own. It’s human nature. ———> https://news.ku.edu/2016/02/19/new-s...nd-and-partner
    Last edited by aster; 06-04-2021 at 01:16 AM.
    𝓽𝓾𝓶𝓫𝓵𝓻
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    ♍︎ 𝓋𝒾𝓇𝑔𝑜 𝓇𝒾𝓈𝒾𝓃𝑔 ♍︎

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    Who does? The amount of wordage that is just garbage makes this forum style super inefficient. I think we'd accomplish more in the shoutbox.

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    Alright, where do I start.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Are you ILE? My ILE buddy is a lot like this- he likes to get everybody involved and has these naive ideals that we can all just get along (cuz ESE is his activity after all).

    Probably cuz he's a thinking type with Fi polr and doesn't fully understand or comprehend (or want to) the little emotional things that happen between people that make others not want to be around each other. In his naive ILE head he's like 'just get over it so we can go back to talking about all this cool Ne stuff!' but it doesn't work that way- he needs to pay attention to the Fi grudge holding side of things more. And yeah Fi can be very dark and sadistic- like horribly so- and ILEs especially run away from it cuz they are deathly afraid of sadistic Fi just like IEIs are afraid of sadistic Te.

    Then again I''ve been told by others I view people too darkly but I just feel it's more realistic. Even when it seems like I'm cutely idealinzg ppl and giving them rpg classes I'm also like looking at their shadow side at all times for my own protection and cuz it's interesting to me and it's part of my refusal to be manipulated by anything cuz I'm the one that manipulates.
    I will admit, I've myself definitely ignored Fi stuff alot, the whole little emotional things, though I will say, those things seem extremely irrelevant and pedantic to focus on. Typically with my experience with anything nearing "sadistic Fi", I'll typically just ignore it and continue acting as I normally do. Though what I'm talking about when I think "sadistic Fi" is being needlessly criticized for the sarcastic, carefree attitude I typically hold up, and having any attempt at lightening up the situation by joking being met with a "wow look how much I'm laughing rn". The whole "shadow side" thing shows the edgy emo-ness of IEI's that I've heard about, and seems a bit black and white to divide people into their "good" and "bad" parts using idealized images.

    Switching to the whole thing people have against deltas in this thread which I've found fascinating, I've personally been much surrounded much more deltas, especially EII's, around the same as I've been exposed to other NT alphas(with the occasional gamma and no one I can confidently call a beta thrown in). Typically I've found deltas to be very different depending on the type, since I haven't really met them interacting together. An SLI I know is someone who I talk to from time to time, and conversations are usually fine and interesting, though the thing I've noticed the most when talking to them is what Talanov calls Qe. Defined as "a propensity for critical disagreement and denial, impatient opposition to someone else's opinion, irritability, explosiveness, rancor." While it's not super obvious and out there, conversations with them typically devolve into me angering some Fi topic(typically joking about a mutual friend and messing with them), at which point I continue to joke around and push the topic while they get enraged at me. It's not a super permeant, grudgeful thing, but it definitely fits the definition. Another thing I've noticed between Alphas and Delta(and possibly Gamma), is the general sensitivity to joking about things/people using serious topics(the kinda violent alpha humor that freelance mentioned earlier in this thread).

    O, and to the whole fantasizing thing, typically I've found that since I've had a very neutral and pleasant upbringing, I don't really find myself recoiling into any fantasy realm, with basically 90% of my head being full of surface level intuition or some mix of Ti/Te. Very boring compared to the extreme detail of the other people in this thread.

    And finally, to the original question of this thread, I've personally found Quadras to be relatively loose groups of people which seem not to really matter when groups of people form. While I will say that I have noticed people of the same quadra seemingly interacting better than of those in different ones, including my own experience, it seems that groups form randomly or from a common interest, both of which are usually very independent from socionics. The idea isn't limiting, in fact actively hanging out with your own quadra more often in close relations is probably one of the best choices one can make, it's just that you can still get along and talk with other people(though friendships will take more work to uphold, especially the closer they get).

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    I find the idea of type to be much more limiting than the idea of quadras.

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