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Thread: Sp first ILEs vs Sp last ILEs

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    Default Sp first ILEs vs Sp last ILEs

    What does a Sp first ILE look like? I am trying to determine whether or not my boyfriend is Sp first, I think I usually get annoyed because he always keeps talking about Sp nesting things a lot. (I am Sx/So, so I have an Sp blindspot and I usually do not like to discuss Sp matters at all) He has to be Sp second at the very least with how much he goes on about nesting things. He cares so much what his food tastes like and will talk for what feels like hours about what kind of food he wants and how awesome it would be if he had X, Y, Z, food. I don't understand why he cares so much about the way food tastes and why he needs good tasting food. He cares so much about his appearance and always feels that he isn't being healthy enough when I don't understand what the big deal is all about, it's easily fixable. He wants his house to look all nice and well put together and will go on about how I should decorate everything to be nice when I don't even care tbh. I dislike decorating my space and I would rather just keep it nice and blank. I can't understand why he makes such a big deal over all of these things when all I would need is a normal bed, blanket, pillow, a PC to work and entertain myself with, a kitchen with a fridge and an oven and a workable counter top and some storage space with the bare minimum of dishes and utensils, a bathroom with a shower and/or a tub, a sink, and a toilet, with enough toilet paper and soap and shampoo and conditioner, a library card and my books, enough cleaning material so that when I actually remember to clean it all I can, and enough food and water to sustain me to feel comfortable. I have poor nesting abilities and I don't really try to gain more materials unless I need them for something I am working on. I also dislike talking about health topics or fashion topics or anything relating to the home. I am not so great at taking care of myself either and so I dislike having to remind someone else on how they should care for themselves as I will forget that too. It makes it a little impossible to help him in health matters when I can't even quite do that for myself. I just can't feign enthusiasm when he talks about these things as I find it draining and I don't really care. It's okay though, because what I want to talk about drains him too. We just have to find something else to talk about or do. ))) He is misguided because he thinks that not being able to cook or take care of yourself, wanting comfortable things, a well organized and decorated home, lots of pleasant sensations, to be at peak health and wanting someone to create all that for you is Si DS, but I still think this is just SP first focus on the home and body and also some NTR things as well. He says the reason for all the awkwardness is just psychosophy and that because I am 4th physics and he is 3rd physics, I don't really speak about physical things in a way that makes him comfortable. However I just can't see how psychosophy is actually supposed to work at this point and so I now think it is actually just Sp last causing all this awkwardness. I could be wrong though, maybe it isn't related to instinctual stackings and it is just because I simply don't care to talk about nesting things or health topics.

    You don't have to read the small rambling paragraph above, just give me examples of ILEs with Sp first vs ILEs with Sp last, please.

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    maybe that's his way of asking for Si help haha


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    Quote Originally Posted by asd View Post
    maybe that's his way of asking for Si help haha
    Umm no because that isn't what Si is. Si is just internal experiences of sensations and nothing more or nothing less. If that is what Si help is, then I wouldn't be SEI at all because I don't value those things. I think it's pretty clear that I am SEI though.

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    I would think an Sp last ILE would focus less on objects and material desire for the sake of PERSONAL sensations of a material or object. I would argue that the desire to obtain health, objects, and good food were based in the perceptions of a mate or social structural ties then I would say the person is Sp last. I would also think that an ILE would be more "intense" about the meaning behind the sensations then the sensations themselves. It's more so what they mean and represent then what they are. Yeah silk sheets feel good but, they also represent that you have enough money and this can attract a mate and it shows social status. So they are going to get zone in on those sensations for that perception.

    I would think an Sp first ILE would seek out sensations for their own hedonistic pleasure and security. Like, they want it cause it makes them FEEL good and not just the idea or perception behind it. I would think that Sp ILE are larger Si seekers and are more hedonistic. More ideas=more pleasure and security for me. I think they would be more sensitive to the 'sensations' of an environment for their own sake then that of others or a mate. It's like going to a 5 star restaurant but not for the status or to impress a date, but to truly indulge on the sensations of the food, the true quality, and the craft that the chef put into to create such an amazing dish.

    I am Sp first, so I am pretty comfortable in any Sp atmosphere. I actively seek out sensations that make me feel good and feel protective for my own sake. Since Si is the dual seeking function, I think looking behind the reasoning for seeking out Si (social status, mate seeking, personal indulgence/resources).

    If there are any ILE Sp first or last, feel free to critique me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissDucki View Post
    I would think an Sp last ILE would focus less on objects and material desire for the sake of PERSONAL sensations of a material or object. I would argue that the desire to obtain health, objects, and good food were based in the perceptions of a mate or social structural ties then I would say the person is Sp last. I would also think that an ILE would be more "intense" about the meaning behind the sensations then the sensations themselves. It's more so what they mean and represent then what they are. Yeah silk sheets feel good but, they also represent that you have enough money and this can attract a mate and it shows social status. So they are going to get zone in on those sensations for that perception.

    I would think an Sp first ILE would seek out sensations for their own hedonistic pleasure and security. Like, they want it cause it makes them FEEL good and not just the idea or perception behind it. I would think that Sp ILE are larger Si seekers and are more hedonistic. More ideas=more pleasure and security for me. I think they would be more sensitive to the 'sensations' of an environment for their own sake then that of others or a mate. It's like going to a 5 star restaurant but not for the status or to impress a date, but to truly indulge on the sensations of the food, the true quality, and the craft that the chef put into to create such an amazing dish.

    I am Sp first, so I am pretty comfortable in any Sp atmosphere. I actively seek out sensations that make me feel good and feel protective for my own sake. Since Si is the dual seeking function, I think looking behind the reasoning for seeking out Si (social status, mate seeking, personal indulgence/resources).

    If there are any ILE Sp first or last, feel free to critique me!
    I want to make just one little comment, I am sure ILE aren't really intense about the meaning behind the sensations.

    Wanting to obtain material for the sake of social status or to look wealthy is not really something ILEs would do, it doesn't seem characteristic of Alphas at all. Some ILEs may do this to look macho or important just because they want to seem more powerful but that isn't really characteristic of most of them. Dressing up to attract a mate and dressing up to create a certain image is something any type can do, for example I could care about clothes in the context of how I come off while wearing them (Fe). Caring about your health to a moderate degree is just something natural for most well adjusted people. Most people just don't talk about it for so long as Sp firsts do.

    Sp ILE can't be larger Si seekers because Sp isn't correlated with Si. Sp is correlated with nesting and gaining more materials for your home and caring for yourself and defending yourself and your home. It looks super hedonistic to Sp last because we just don't care about how good these sensations are or nesting too much. Being hedonistic has nothing to do with Si as Si is just about internal experiences of sensations. Si seeking as far as I can tell, is basically where you expect the other person to listen to what you have to say with enthusiasm.

    It's weird because more ideas = more hesitation and discomfort for me. I just hate it when someone comes up with a totally new idea and we have to change direction again, and I know they will just change their mind again. It's so frustrating and I just can't stand how unfocused it is. I prefer one good idea that we can expand upon and follow to completion because I usually know where I want to go and I want to do everything possible to get it to that exact vision. I see only one possibility and I zero in on it where he sees multiple ones and never chooses. I am more Ti seeking than Ne seeking though due to being super SEI-Fe so Ne in my future plans makes me feel dizzy. I prefer more Ti conversations that are focused on one topic at a time and are more smooth and flowing. I also hate new ideas for what I could be doing as well as I already know, the only problem is that I procrastinate. I just have to put up with Ne. :\ Oh well, hopefully I can get it to focus on where I want to go and to stop changing its mind every half second through the power of persuasion.

    Edit for silliness:

    Idealistic dual that would break the laws of Socionics and anything logical that makes sense:

    Ti base/Fe creative
    No polr because he's idealistically perfect like that/ Se role
    Fe hidden agenda/no DS bc no expectations
    ignores nothing because he's idealistically perfect like that/Te and Fi demo

    He is neither sensing nor intuitive but just pure logical and feeling, 4D Ti and 3D Fe, 4D Fi and 4D Te demo.

    He has no PoLR and ignores nothing because he is perfect and can see everything from every angle.

    He understands all emotions and matters of ethics and all art and he knows what can truly set you on fire, but at the same time is controlled and practical.

    Passionate and cold blooded at the same time, fire and ice. Literally mood swings between his logical and ethical alter egos.

    The rules don't apply to him at all because he breaks them all with his power.
    Last edited by MidnightWilderness; 05-30-2021 at 02:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    Umm no because that isn't what Si is. Si is just internal experiences of sensations and nothing more or nothing less. If that is what Si help is, then I wouldn't be SEI at all because I don't value those things. I think it's pretty clear that I am SEI though.
    No, he clearly wants someone with effortless Si to help him organize these all these loose and jumbled 1D Si thoughts and desires in his head. Also it's definitely not clear you're SEI (to me at least, but you know that already haha)

    The ILE I'm close with is SO/SX and boy is she fixated on SP / Si matters in similar ways you described for your bf.

    He's very Si-seeking, and you hate that because you're not an SEI.

    Okay, anyway, examples of things the ILE does


    -cringes every time we drive over potholes / nervously apologizes when she was the one driving
    -talks about the "tastes" of different water and about how she can't stand the water from one water fountain, how she'll only drink it from her own sink etc. i couldn't care less about water taste lol. she refuses to drink from certain water fountains even if she's very thirsty
    -after a big meal, always complains of feeling "bloated" (never knew that was a thing before I met her)
    -oh yeah, lots of complaining in general about sensory things.
    -it takes a lot, and i mean A LOT, to convince her to try a food that visually doesn't look appetizing. she's infinitely picky about seafood, and i tried for so long to convince her to try sardines cause they're good for you
    -when she does try new foods, it's always of a very tiny piece. like, 1/5 quarter size. i mean come on how can you taste anything like that. i'm like, just suck it up, you know?
    -she likes cooking and is very particular about the foods she eats
    -specifically, what type of a certain food. this type of mango vs that type of mango. if she doesn't like one type, details everything she dislikes about it
    -definitely cares about creating a nice space in her room
    -once i helped her paint stripes onto her wall and she was extremely picky about what colors to put. also very insistent on a "desert color" theme (which was cool)
    -the kitchen section of thrift stores are like a magnet to her (for example the mug section)
    -cares a lot about how clothing feels on her
    -has a thing for watching sunsets (much more than other people)
    -she does this thing that used to annoy me so much: these long and repetitive narrations: "can i tell you about my morning? okay, so i woke up this morning and i was soo happy because the sun was out so i made a delicious breakfast, it had eggs and tomato, the tomato was acidic but it was really really good, and then i ate this bread i bought from the farmers market at Town, it's a good one there, and it had rye in it.." et.. cetera...................... eventually i told her it was really annoying cause it's always the same thing, and she said that well, she just wants to share the "little things" that make her really happy to me. so i thought, okay, whatever, i can deal with this.


    I mean, logically I'd think an SP-last ILE wouldn't be so fixated on these things, and I've met some who certainly aren't, but she's living proof that it's not an iron rule.
    One way the last (and first) instinct can manifest is as an overfixation. It's really only the second instinct that's typically stress-free and effortless. The overfixation is amplified when the last instinct is so closely related to the DS. (Si and SP)

    So we find ourselves with an individual who is overfixated on an aspect of reality that he can't himself sort out, no matter how much he tries. Ergo he indefatigably seeks it out in others. By insisting you're SEI, he projects onto you his intense desire to be alleviated of his anxiety regarding his sensory experience.

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    "Sp ILE can't be larger Si seekers because Sp isn't correlated with Si. Sp is correlated with nesting and gaining more materials for your home and caring for yourself and defending yourself and your home."

    Ok but everything you describe in him is essentially Si seeking on overdrive. I think you're trying to convince yourself that it's about SP, but it's really not. And you're probably right that SP and Si aren't correlated so scratch what I said about SP first/last possibly amplifying Si seeking.. but regardless.. this is really all about the Si and not about SP.
    just admit it, you hate Si! like any IEI tangled up with an ILE eventually does! you just don't wanna deal with it. your Si is 2D at best.
    you also hate Ne and the way it muddles up your vision of the way you want your life to pan out, your purpose. you have such a clear idea of your purpose and direction in life. if you think you don't, it's because you're swimming in Ni and don't realize just how mediocre other people are at this.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post

    Passionate and cold blooded at the same time, fire and ice. Literally mood swings between his logical and ethical alter egos.

    The rules don't apply to him at all because he breaks them all with his power.

    A certain type of ILE is pretty demonstrative in its feelings, and seems to change them frequently. If that appeals to you you could be on the lookout.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    If their attitude towards life is f*ck money, long term security, normal life and comfortably lives in a mess without owning a car and such that person is probably Sp last.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    No, he clearly wants someone with effortless Si to help him organize these all these loose and jumbled 1D Si thoughts and desires in his head. Also it's definitely not clear you're SEI (to me at least, but you know that already haha)

    The ILE I'm close with is SO/SX and boy is she fixated on SP / Si matters in similar ways you described for your bf.

    He's very Si-seeking, and you hate that because you're not an SEI.

    Okay, anyway, examples of things the ILE does


    -cringes every time we drive over potholes / nervously apologizes when she was the one driving
    -talks about the "tastes" of different water and about how she can't stand the water from one water fountain, how she'll only drink it from her own sink etc. i couldn't care less about water taste lol. she refuses to drink from certain water fountains even if she's very thirsty
    -after a big meal, always complains of feeling "bloated" (never knew that was a thing before I met her)
    -oh yeah, lots of complaining in general about sensory things.
    -it takes a lot, and i mean A LOT, to convince her to try a food that visually doesn't look appetizing. she's infinitely picky about seafood, and i tried for so long to convince her to try sardines cause they're good for you
    -when she does try new foods, it's always of a very tiny piece. like, 1/5 quarter size. i mean come on how can you taste anything like that. i'm like, just suck it up, you know?
    -she likes cooking and is very particular about the foods she eats
    -specifically, what type of a certain food. this type of mango vs that type of mango. if she doesn't like one type, details everything she dislikes about it
    -definitely cares about creating a nice space in her room
    -once i helped her paint stripes onto her wall and she was extremely picky about what colors to put. also very insistent on a "desert color" theme (which was cool)
    -the kitchen section of thrift stores are like a magnet to her (for example the mug section)
    -cares a lot about how clothing feels on her
    -has a thing for watching sunsets (much more than other people)
    -she does this thing that used to annoy me so much: these long and repetitive narrations: "can i tell you about my morning? okay, so i woke up this morning and i was soo happy because the sun was out so i made a delicious breakfast, it had eggs and tomato, the tomato was acidic but it was really really good, and then i ate this bread i bought from the farmers market at Town, it's a good one there, and it had rye in it.." et.. cetera...................... eventually i told her it was really annoying cause it's always the same thing, and she said that well, she just wants to share the "little things" that make her really happy to me. so i thought, okay, whatever, i can deal with this.


    I mean, logically I'd think an SP-last ILE wouldn't be so fixated on these things, and I've met some who certainly aren't, but she's living proof that it's not an iron rule.
    One way the last (and first) instinct can manifest is as an overfixation. It's really only the second instinct that's typically stress-free and effortless. The overfixation is amplified when the last instinct is so closely related to the DS. (Si and SP)

    So we find ourselves with an individual who is overfixated on an aspect of reality that he can't himself sort out, no matter how much he tries. Ergo he indefatigably seeks it out in others. By insisting you're SEI, he projects onto you his intense desire to be alleviated of his anxiety regarding his sensory experience.
    The above interaction with such an ILE sounds super annoying to me, because it's like "Who even cares that much about every single tiny thing like that?" but I assume it's because I am not SEI-Si so...? These long detailed explanations and over obsession with sensations bore and annoy the heck out of me, but maybe I don't hate Si, it's just that I am not dualized enough to understand why they care so much about these sensory comforts that seem totally trivial and super weird to care about??? Hopefully we both just have two extreme examples of ILEs because this just seems like abnormal and oddly fixated behavior to me... I mean, I love nature and natural symbolism a whole lot, but that is the extent to which I can relate.



    Though I imagine SEI-Fe cares less about how things taste or what things look like or all these crazy details and so super Si seeking is more annoying for SEI-Fe. They just want to hang with logical types that are more Fe seeking than Fi seeking. It doesn't provide much evidence for a different typing.


    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    "Sp ILE can't be larger Si seekers because Sp isn't correlated with Si. Sp is correlated with nesting and gaining more materials for your home and caring for yourself and defending yourself and your home."

    Ok but everything you describe in him is essentially Si seeking on overdrive. I think you're trying to convince yourself that it's about SP, but it's really not. And you're probably right that SP and Si aren't correlated so scratch what I said about SP first/last possibly amplifying Si seeking.. but regardless.. this is really all about the Si and not about SP.
    just admit it, you hate Si! like any IEI tangled up with an ILE eventually does! you just don't wanna deal with it. your Si is 2D at best.
    you also hate Ne and the way it muddles up your vision of the way you want your life to pan out, your purpose. you have such a clear idea of your purpose and direction in life. if you think you don't, it's because you're swimming in Ni and don't realize just how mediocre other people are at this.


    Theory as to why I could still be SEI-Fe:

    Well I don't think that having a clear purpose and direction is necessarily Ni related, and I don't think other people are necessarily mediocre at this. If it is true that I am SEI-Fe, then I would be less caregivery than a normal SEI and maybe I just prefer people that can take care of themselves and also not care about these things you call "Si seeking" as much. In fact it irritates me to no end because I literally do not care about these things. I am also enneagram type 4, 4s are very tied to a sense of identity and self and therefore I am more likely to create a future vision and have ideals that I am stubborn about, which is why I seem to reject Ne. Theoretically, ILE-Ti would be more likely to stick with one plan, stick with one topic for longer in a conversation which is more interesting, and not get in the way of my type 4 self realization. Also it could just be that I find this particular ILE to be kind of annoying. We get along decently though when we aren't talking about the future or anything too serious so I feel it's still duality just I think we have non socionics related differences. We can still probably work out all the differences between ourselves but I become increasingly unsure day by day that it will work out. He talked to this girl that was for sure SEI and he said it was too comfortable interacting with her and even though he describes being with your "perfect dual" as being with the person of your dreams, who does everything exactly like how you wished, he still wants to be with me for the "challenge". "We still have 90% good relations..." "...It's all just illusions, we all want everything to be perfect when nothing ever will, we just have to find God...." "With you I have something to overcome, something to try to challenge myself with so that everything isn't so easy in life..."
    Also he said this in relation to what you consider Sp seeking "...I should not be so concerned with these things, they don't matter as much as God does. Just promise me you will cook and clean for me and I will take care of the finances..." (I can't remember with accuracy what he said, but I summarized it in the quotes.) Maybe duality is supposed to feel like a challenge and you just have to overcome the awkwardness so you can grow together. Only how do you overcome it?

    We have these different viewpoints and different ways of conversing that just don't mesh together sometimes and it causes frustration. Also he is type 7 which doesn't go as well with 4s because 7s like to constantly change things and avoid negative emotions while 4s bask in negative emotions and they want to have a stable sense of identity and they are more concerned with their own little vision and their own little worlds than trying to have a bunch of new experiences. I am also sp last which makes me terrible with material and physical matters and unconcerned with my environment and bad at caring for myself and others in a physical way. I just don't have the energy at all for those kind of things as it quickly drains me and I revert back to my private thoughts a lot and trying to build my own 4ish vision of how things should go down and what I stand for and value and want and what my purpose in life should be. Besides everyone knows that it is just easier to converse with other Fe valuing ethical types than your own duals, because your duals can't understand you. Only other IXFP types who are also 4s can understand me well.

    I can't help but feel like he should stop being all sacrificial and just go with the other SEI girl who he clearly can converse better with and who isn't 4 so she won't bother him with all these moods and she wouldn't force him to try to stick with one idea and stay in one place and she wouldn't be so physically inept like me.He is so attached to me and clearly wouldn't even leave me for someone who he describes as being "the person who is exactly like the person you've always dreamed about and who is perfect to talk to with no conflict", he would sacrifice perfection and comfort for me, he would sacrifice a perfect dual for me, he would probably even sacrifice some of his ideas for me, he just won't go for anyone else. I can't even comprehend this love and I lose all better judgement because he is so sure in me that I just feel heartless and devoid of love in comparison to him. I keep complaining and being unsure of the relationship all the time, but even when he finds a perfect dual it just makes him even more sure in me.

    I hate feeling this cold and bitchy about everything and I want to just accept everything, but then I remember we will always have issues because it has been this hot and cold for the last two years and I think it is unlikely to change. Today we are 100% sure in each other, tomorrow we will feel awkward. Every. single. conversation. is. so. awkward. I don't trust anything he says because I know he will just change his mind tomorrow, it's all just fleeting feelings and ideas to me... He will probably wind up either over rationalizing and smoothing over every single problem without realizing it and addressing it and/or end up regretting marrying me... Maybe none of that will happen, but I just have a really bad feeling about him describing the relationship as a "challenge" and describing another woman as "the perfect person" because I feel like there is something wrong with me and that I am just flawed and broken mentally and that I am just the most unhelpful person because I make everything "complicated" and a "challenge". He even said that when he listens to Numb by Linkin Park he imagines me saying those words to him.

    "I'm tired of being what you want me to be
    Feeling so faithless, lost under the surface
    Don't know what you're expecting of me
    Put under the pressure of walking in your shoes
    Every step that I take is another mistake to you
    (Caught in the undertow, just caught in the undertow)
    I've become so numb
    I can't feel you there
    Become so tired
    So much more aware
    I'm becoming this
    All I want to do
    Is be more like me
    And be less like you
    Can't you see that you're smothering me
    Holding too tightly, afraid to lose control?
    'Cause everything that you thought I would be
    Has fallen apart right in front of you
    Every step that I take is another mistake to you
    (Caught in the undertow, just caught in the undertow)
    And every second I waste is more than I can take
    I've become so numb
    I can't feel you there
    Become so tired
    So much more aware
    I'm becoming this
    All I want to do
    Is be more like me
    And be less like you
    And I know
    I may end up failing too
    But I know
    You were just like me with someone disappointed in you
    I've become so numb
    I can't feel you there
    Become so tired
    So much more aware
    I'm becoming this
    All I want to do
    Is be more like me
    And be less like you
    I've become so numb
    I can't feel you there
    (I'm tired of being what you want me to be)
    I've become so numb
    I can't feel you there
    (I'm tired of being what you want me to be)"

    Yes, exactly what you should imagine your girlfriend saying to you in a perfectly healthy loving relationship where both sides help each other in a way that helps with self-realization and growth...

    Why am I emotionally defective as a human being? Why do I always feel like I never truly belong anywhere? Why do I feel so unhelpful and stupid in comparison to everyone else?

    I just want him to be happy and I am scared that we will make each other lowkey apathetic, but I can't nudge him towards this other SEI because he will just come back to me with a love that is 100x stronger than before... I don't know if I truly love him or not or if it is just some "illusion" of discomfort that I made up because I am simply just unhealthy enneagram 4 overamplifying and dramatizing all of the problems. It's probably better if I confront all these problems head on instead of wasting so much time worrying, but I don't exactly understand how to explain my feelings to him in a way he would understand without being dismissive...

    Maaaaaybe I am trying to deny reality and claim I am SEI-Fe so that I do not have to come to terms with the state of the relationship with my boyfriend, because I am blinded with some perverted Sx 4 sense of tragic love, but I think the first theory is altogether more likely. IEIs just are statistically not all that common, it's just that some people act like being intuitive is something magical and special like having some kind of "abstract magical Jedi force power third eye" or something like that.

    When I don't try to stick to my clear idea of my purpose and direction and I try to submit to other's plans or ideas it feels like I am a fish trying to breathe air. More ideas = more hesitation because I don't want to do something that I know I won't like or that I find harmful to my direction. We don't have all the time in the world to test every single idea or try everything so it's better to find one idea to stick to and perfect so we can truly shine and be true to our ideals with the limited amount of time that we have been given. My idea wasn't so clear before I had this existential crisis and realization of my own mortality, all I knew is that I wanted to learn another language and go across the Atlantic and become an artist of sorts. After the crisis I basically just realized how important realizing or attempting to realize your own dreams are, because if I gave up on them completely my soul would wither and I wouldn't really be "MidnightWilderness" anymore, I would just be a husk of a human being and an empty shell that waits to die and indulges in escapism to pass all the meaningless days away, and I would have no name, something which 4 fears the most, the loss of identity and self-realization. So this is why I made a motto for myself, and it is quite simple, "Dreams Forever! - Time does not wait for you, try to realize your dreams and fight for them until the end, and cherish bittersweet life while you can. Do not fall victim to pure nihilism and contempt, if you can be steadfast in faith, God will save you when time passes you by." And maybe that sounds like pretentious gibberish to most people, but it makes sense to me.

    I mean yeah there are some anomalies and quirks in me, but there isn't quiiiiite enough evidence against me being SEI to seriously consider retyping myself... Not just yet, I believe more people have to disagree with my self typing and my experiences with people have to be consistent with a type that is not SEI. Then I can start questioning my type for realsies. My experiences with one ILE and a giant heap of idealism and visionary beliefs and what looks like dislike for Si and Ne isn't going to make me confident enough to change my self typing. Too many people have mistyped themselves because everything does not perfectly align with type descriptions or they have subtypes which skew the expression of their type or they think that another type is somehow better than their own type. At this point, I just have to stick with SEI-Fe 4w3 Sx/So for now and take note of any new developments in the argument against me being Si ego. Another thing is that I could have a super developed role function so my usage of Ni just looks better than other people, but it's only superficially better and I still only have 2D Ni.

    /\
    ||

    Um and yeah move on, what is written above is just emotional ranting because I just had so many words inside me that needed to come out... One of many reasons of why I like to write. )))

    Your points are still valid though, so I'm not dismissing your observations, just I am trying to be more serious and cautious about Socionics so that I don't make idiotic mistypings or assessments. I still have so much new and interesting Socionics theory to learn and obsess over. )))


  11. #11
    chocolatte's Avatar
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    @MidnightWilderness

    The above interaction with such an ILE sounds super annoying to me, because it's like "Who even cares that much about every single tiny thing like that?" but I assume it's because I am not SEI-Si so...? These long detailed explanations and over obsession with sensations bore and annoy the heck out of me, but maybe I don't hate Si, it's just that I am not dualized enough to understand why they care so much about these sensory comforts that seem totally trivial and super weird to care about??? Hopefully we both just have two extreme examples of ILEs because this just seems like abnormal and oddly fixated behavior to me... I mean, I love nature and natural symbolism a whole lot, but that is the extent to which I can relate.

    Though I imagine SEI-Fe cares less about how things taste or what things look like or all these crazy details and so super Si seeking is more annoying for SEI-Fe. They just want to hang with logical types that are more Fe seeking than Fi seeking. It doesn't provide much evidence for a different typing.
    -i think you forget that SEI-Fes are still Si bases at their core. the subtype doesn't negate the base.
    -i know two SEI-Fes, both of them are SP-blind actually, and they are good at and like Si a lot (obviously) which you just.. don't. they're also very caregiver-y.

    ok about your BF
    I hate feeling this cold and bitchy about everything and I want to just accept everything, but then I remember we will always have issues because it has been this hot and cold for the last two years and I think it is unlikely to change. Today we are 100% sure in each other, tomorrow we will feel awkward. Every. single. conversation. is. so. awkward. I don't trust anything he says because I know he will just change his mind tomorrow, it's all just fleeting feelings and ideas to me... He will probably wind up either over rationalizing and smoothing over every single problem without realizing it and addressing it and/or end up regretting marrying me... Maybe none of that will happen, but I just have a really bad feeling about him describing the relationship as a "challenge" and describing another woman as "the perfect person" because I feel like there is something wrong with me and that I am just flawed and broken mentally and that I am just the most unhelpful person because I make everything "complicated" and a "challenge".
    the person at the source of these thoughts & feelings- it's not you it's him. or rather, it's not you it's the relationship.
    ~
    please read this book: Radical Self-Acceptance by Tara Brach


    I tend to just be like "What's the big deal, you look handsome!", "Why should you care, it doesn't matter in the long run.there isn't quiiiiite enough evidence against me being SEI to seriously consider retyping myself
    OH HO HO * rolls up sleeves *
    non-exhaustive bouquet of evidence:


    - I tend to just be like "Why should you care, it doesn't matter in the long run." or I just seem indifferent on physical matters. I tend to make physical matters seem trivial or unimportant.
    - I really hate having Ne disrupt my future plans and I tend to be very annoyed and start saying things like, "Just make up your mind!!!"
    - I don't think I have an aversion to Ne when it is for fun or if the Ne plan fits my original plan, I just hate it when it destroys what I wanted and sometimes it can just add what I believe to be unnecessary complication and confusion. Even if it fits my plan, there is almost no telling when it could change. It is very unrelaxing that wa
    - However I see the world like there is only one door at the end, and there are many obstacles in the way of the door that I must avoid as much as possible, and when I can't, cross through them as best as I can. I get a bit distracted along the way and over idealistic, but I really, really must get through that door no matter how long it will take me, I don't ever want to give up on my dreams.


    T_T

    you should stop exploring what Ne,Si,ILEs,SEIs are and get a better grasp of Ni,Se,IEIs,SLEs instead. if anything just to understand socionics better.

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    MidnightWilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    @MidnightWilderness



    -i think you forget that SEI-Fes are still Si bases at their core. the subtype doesn't negate the base.
    -i know two SEI-Fes, both of them are SP-blind actually, and they are good at and like Si a lot (obviously) which you just.. don't. they're also very caregiver-y.

    ok about your BF

    the person at the source of these thoughts & feelings- it's not you it's him. or rather, it's not you it's the relationship.
    ~
    please read this book: Radical Self-Acceptance by Tara Brach



    OH HO HO * rolls up sleeves *
    non-exhaustive bouquet of evidence:


    - I tend to just be like "Why should you care, it doesn't matter in the long run." or I just seem indifferent on physical matters. I tend to make physical matters seem trivial or unimportant.
    - I really hate having Ne disrupt my future plans and I tend to be very annoyed and start saying things like, "Just make up your mind!!!"
    - I don't think I have an aversion to Ne when it is for fun or if the Ne plan fits my original plan, I just hate it when it destroys what I wanted and sometimes it can just add what I believe to be unnecessary complication and confusion. Even if it fits my plan, there is almost no telling when it could change. It is very unrelaxing that wa
    - However I see the world like there is only one door at the end, and there are many obstacles in the way of the door that I must avoid as much as possible, and when I can't, cross through them as best as I can. I get a bit distracted along the way and over idealistic, but I really, really must get through that door no matter how long it will take me, I don't ever want to give up on my dreams.


    T_T

    you should stop exploring what Ne,Si,ILEs,SEIs are and get a better grasp of Ni,Se,IEIs,SLEs instead. if anything just to understand socionics better.
    I imagine you as like some kind of Judge Judy type at the stand and I am on trial...

    "Present the evidence..."

    "Your honor, I am not guilty of being IEI, [insert speech here]..."

    The camera pans over to you looking serious...

    "OH HO HO"

    *rolls up sleeves*

    "There is a non-exhaustive bouquet of evidence....
    as to why you are not SEI-Fe
    ...you are guilty as charged"

    the camera pans over to me looking sweaty with an unsure expression

    "bu... but... your honor, [insert excuse]"

    "No buts!...

    the camera pans back to you and there is a long pause with an uncomfortable zoom up

    "I hereby sentence you to a lifetime...

    ...of reading socionics and psychological literature in order to better understand yourself and the world around you!"

    the camera pans back to me and I start sniffling...

    IDK if it is exactly a "non-exhaustive bouquet of evidence" that is solid though...

    Maybe it's just this one ILE that's wrong for me? Can't SEI-Fe be non caregiver-y sometimes? The subtype doesn't negate the base but it does make usage of base weaker in order to boost the creative right? I can use Si but I just focus on Fe more so it looks negated when it is not. I am sure IEI-Fes also dislike heavy Se usage and ILE-Tis also dislike heavy Si usage right? How am I Se valuing though? Where's my Se DS?

    Please can some creative types confirm this?
    Where are my SEI-Fes that like Ti over Ne at?

    Help please so that I don't commit mistype

  13. #13
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    @MidnightWilderness

    I'm irloling hahaha

    I'm very dedicated to preventing you from committing mistype at such a young age also, i feel like it's my duty as a 4 to tell other 4s that there's nothing wrong with them and that they're perfectly imperfect just the way they are (yes you! )

    " The subtype doesn't negate the base but it does make usage of base weaker in order to boost the creative right?"

    (The way I view it is that) One doesn't "use" the base-- one "is" the base. It's the creative that one uses, since the creative is the tool. So that's why, to me, it's strange when you say that you would use Si less if you're the creative subtype. No one can turn off the base, while the creative can be switched on/off.

    Also I don't think IEI-Fes dislike heavy Se usage. IEI-Fes and SLE-Ses are still duals. they prefer slightly less Se usage (SLE-Ti) but SLE-Se is still a good deal, honestly. it's not like a hate thing which u describe for your ILE.
    Last edited by chocolatte; 06-03-2021 at 02:08 AM.

  14. #14
    The Banana King's Avatar
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    >he thinks that not being able to cook or take care of yourself, wanting comfortable things, a well organized and decorated home, lots of pleasant sensations, to be at peak health and wanting someone to create all that for you is Si DS, but I still think this is just SP first focus on the home and body and also some NTR things as well.
    If he's insistent about it then he may be 3F rather than 2F lol but definitely processional Physics


    I can think of 2 ILEs other than myself, all of them close friends of mine. Bro 1 (FxxV, sp/so), Bro 2 (xLxF, sx/so) and myself (FLEV, maybe sx/sp but unsure, definitely so blind)

    Bro 1 is quite obsessive about anything Si. He is ILE-Ne which is why I think he's more obsessed about it then I am. At any rate, he's great at cooking and satisfying his Si, probably because of the 1F. But 1F being result-oriented means that he's not fussy about the "process" (since his main goal is sating his physical desires, not enjoying the process or making art out of food or whatever). He is extremely messy lol. He could live in a pigsty and see no issue with it. But it's a matter of choice and laziness. This is where the Si dual seeking becomes apparent. Despite being confident and capable (relative to other ILEs) of sating his physical desires, he needs help with stuff related to COMFORT (living in a clean, orderly space, taking a bath regularly, etc.) but not DESIRES (eating, drinking, sex, etc.)

    Bro 2 is almost the polar opposite. Bro 1 vocally HATED Bro 2. Despite being Identicals! I found that hilarious because it means intertype relationship compatibility is bunk lol.
    This guy was more or less balanced subtype. I type him as sx-first because he got a gf from our class after just 1 week of attending (I attribute sx-first to that "needing" to be in a relationship sort of thing). She was sx lead IEE and they were always together lol but it was very obvious to me as a Socionically Enlighted guy that they were both deeply unsatisfied because both were Si seeking.
    Anyways Bro 2 was quite stereotypically ILE. LOVED talking about just about anything. Loved to argue. Maybe because 2L but it's hard to separate which behaviours come from ILE and which from 2L. Also, in contrast to Bro 1 he was relatively "innocent" in terms of... well stuff like sex jokes and so on. Bro 1 could be pretty sleazy and didn't give a f*** lol. But yeah they were like night and day despite being in the most technical sense the SAME type.

    Then in my case I don't even know my type but I'm 100% sure about being so-blind. 99% of people would say I'm an introvert simply because I'm not social but I definitely value one-on-one interaction (and most importantly face-to-face interaction). My self-preservation instinct is definitely there, the physical world is more important to me than the average ILE. Think about it this way, regular ILE make money in order to make their crazy plans come true. On the other hand I make crazy plans in order to attain my monetary/physical goals. But I think if I had the choice between being rich for life or having a fulfilling relationship for life I would definitely choose the latter .

    Honestly I prefer just keeping socionics and psyche yoga type because things get more and more complicated for no good reason after incorporating too many typology systems. For me Socionics + PY work fine together independently and I ignore other typology systems that just add confusion to the mix. The whole instinctual variant/enneagram thing makes things too complicated for me lol

    Anyways those are the ILE that I've known well for several years. For the record I don't really know about instincts that much so don't rely too much on this info lol. But I hope the descriptions help a bit.

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