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Thread: Your dual's demonstrative vs Your dual's lead function

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    Default Your dual's demonstrative vs Your dual's lead function

    I heard that your dual's (& your mirage's) demonstrative function is actually of decent value. Great demo compliments weak polr obviously. Socionics theory states that folks need their suggestive function addressed. Is having your polr (unconsciously) addressed by your dual's demonstrative just as important?

    How important is it to have your polr properly addressed?

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    I guess I would say I like to have it taken care of, yeah
    prob true for others too

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    In theory, the PoLR has a connection to the base, and DS to the demonstrative - all evaluatory functions.

    It seems my PoLR is the safest and least judged by xSE-Si. They as if take my hand and say "come here, stupid child, let's walk this Se thing through together, you'll be fine" but in a really loving and gentle way.

    However, Se demonstrative of LSE-Te and ESE-Fe generally sucks for me. They use it arbitrarily, to ultimately reach an Ej goal that I don't care about and injure my PoLR in the process. My LII-Ne peers have expressed objection to this as well. EII-Fi, on the other hand, likes the stable environment the Se is being used in with those types; LII-Ti is just indifferent. I see similar dynamics in Mirage relations where SEI-Si gravitates toward SLE-Se more than SLE-Ti, because although this pair is theoretically more like a Contrary relation due to their base subtypes, they still cover each other's PoLR in a way that is ideal for them. I think that would imply proper support for the PoLR is at least on par with support for the suggestive.
    Last edited by PinKDiGiT18; 05-22-2021 at 02:10 AM.

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    Ive always...fantasized about someone who is super soft and gentle with me and is not harsh in my presence even if he were capable of it. But that he can use it, if needed, to protect me from those who mean me harm or otherwise in any situation Se might be useful. But even thought of him being that way - even if it’s not to me - but it’s in my presence, churns my stomach a little...

    yeah, idk. I guess I trust LSEs with Se and trust that they will use it in a way that’s justified and doesn’t cross any lines.

    that’s how I imagine my PoLR being “supported.” Someone who protects me or even warns me that I may get myself into a potential confrontation if I behave in xyz ways lol (I would really appreciate that).

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    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    In theory, the PoLR has a connection to the base, and DS to the demonstrative - all evaluatory functions.

    It seems my PoLR is the safest and least judged by xSE-Si. They as if take my hand and say "come here, stupid child, let's walk this Se thing through together, you'll be fine" but in a really loving and gentle way.

    However, Se demonstrative of LSE-Te and ESE-Fe generally sucks for me. They use it arbitrarily, to ultimately reach an Ej goal that I don't care about and injure my PoLR in the process. My LII-Ne peers have expressed objection to this as well. EII-Fi, on the other hand, likes the stable environment the Se is being used in with those types; LII-Ti is just indifferent. I see similar dynamics in Mirage relations where SEI-Si gravitates toward SLE-Se more than SLE-Ti, because although this pair is theoretically more like a Contrary relation due to their base subtypes, they still cover each other's PoLR in a way that is ideal for them. I think that would imply proper support for the PoLR is at least on par with support for the suggestive.
    I'm SLE-Ti so my dual is an ethical subtype (IEI-Fe). With IEI-Fe & SEI-Fe being ethical subtypes they'll have strong Fi demonstrative. Because they're ethical subtypes, their Fi helps me more than the IEI-Ni (intuitive subtype) would

    This speaks to your point & I'm guessing you're an intuitive subtype. This would probably mean that you'd prefer a sensing subtype to address your polr. I'd honestly never considered things from this perspective. Cheers, mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    I'm SLE-Ti so my dual is an ethical subtype (IEI-Fe). With IEI-Fe & SEI-Fe being ethical subtypes they'll have strong Fi demonstrative. Because they're ethical subtypes, their Fi helps me more than the IEI-Ni (intuitive subtype) would

    This speaks to your point & I'm guessing you're an intuitive subtype. This would probably mean that you'd prefer a sensing subtype to address your polr. I'd honestly never considered things from this perspective. Cheers, mate.
    Definitely! The impression I get from xSE-Si is that they've spent a great deal of time finetuning their understanding and implementation of Se in their lives. I get the same impression from the xEI-Fes I know. They absolutely never throw Fi into anyone's face, no matter how close they are. When required to speak on personal feelings though, they are very good at deconstructing Fi - sometimes better, I think, than an Fi base.

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    As IEI-Ni subtype I'd say suggestive and PoLR are equally importnt for me. When my suggestive isn't addressed I feel unsatisfied, when PoLR isn't addressed I feel anxious.

    With an SEE I'd feel very fulfilled, but there'd be an element of latent anxiety over our mutual T weakness. I don't want to deal with it man.
    I couldn't say that PoLR is more important because I'm not that blind towards Te the way an xEI-Fe is. But I couldn't say it's less important either. Quality of life reasons! I've had tastes of both Se base and Te Demo and wouldn't want one without the other.
    -->more of "good"

    With ILE I feel pretty unsatisfied, but at least there's less/no latent anxiety over Te.
    when i perceive lack of support in Se matters, i feel more frustration, rather than any emotion related with "fear".

    The exception is in the Se domain of physical security/strength. as a petite and skinny woman i feel very, very vulnerable. but.. that's only when i'm alone, so i don't think the strength in Se of my partner would affect this too much. that's something i gotta deal with on my own.. i'm taking Krav Maga classes this summer. I might join the martial arts club at my university depending on the whims of my future self. (can't really trust myself to commit to something that far ahead of time lol)

    I met a m.ILE-f.IEI couple a few months ago. It took me a bit to type the IEI because she's not unsolid in the environment the way most 1D Se's are. She grew up in a rough neighborhood in Malaysia and this in combination with Se valuation makes her always emphasize the importance of defending oneself to me. Like, every time I see her. She probably senses my weak Se and sees herself in me. She told me that when you learn how to defend yourself, people can sense this in the way you walk. i can totally see that with her.

    --> less of "bad"

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    As IEI-Ni subtype I'd say suggestive and PoLR are equally importnt for me. When my suggestive isn't addressed I feel unsatisfied, when PoLR isn't addressed I feel anxious.

    With an SEE I'd feel very fulfilled, but there'd be an element of latent anxiety over our mutual T weakness. I don't want to deal with it man.
    I couldn't say that PoLR is more important because I'm not that blind towards Te the way an xEI-Fe is. But I couldn't say it's less important either. Quality of life reasons! I've had tastes of both Se base and Te Demo and wouldn't want one without the other.
    -->more of "good"

    With ILE I feel pretty unsatisfied, but at least there's less/no latent anxiety over Te.
    when i perceive lack of support in Se matters, i feel more frustration, rather than any emotion related with "fear".

    The exception is in the Se domain of physical security/strength. as a petite and skinny woman i feel very, very vulnerable. but.. that's only when i'm alone, so i don't think the strength in Se of my partner would affect this too much. that's something i gotta deal with on my own.. i'm taking Krav Maga classes this summer. I might join the martial arts club at my university depending on the whims of my future self. (can't really trust myself to commit to something that far ahead of time lol)

    I met a m.ILE-f.IEI couple a few months ago. It took me a bit to type the IEI because she's not unsolid in the environment the way most 1D Se's are. She grew up in a rough neighborhood in Malaysia and this in combination with Se valuation makes her always emphasize the importance of defending oneself to me. Like, every time I see her. She probably senses my weak Se and sees herself in me. She told me that when you learn how to defend yourself, people can sense this in the way you walk. i can totally see that with her.

    --> less of "bad"
    This, this, this. I genuinely feel a sense of fear when I do not have reliable support for my PoLR. They call it the vulnerable function for a reason. When there's a lack of Te I'm more like "dang it, this is gonna be harder than it needs to be now." But when there's a lack of *safe* Se I feel a much more palpable risk that something could go wrong.

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    On a semi unrelated note of Se DS vs Se PoLR inspired by what asd wrote.

    Unlike Se PoLRs, if someone has demo Se and is gentle with me.. I'd just slowly take advantage of it. What Strat writes is on point:

    If Zhukov did not possess such qualities, he would have turned into a disorganized IEI himself. This, by the way, is what happens when members of other sociotypes become IEI's partners - the IEI begins to relax them and then freeloads at their expense: "You feel so good with me - why not do some work for me?" It is exactly with Zhukov that this trick doesn't pass. Even though he, too, can do a lot for the IEI, but the SLE won't allow anyone to freeload, or at least he/she will try to avoid this at all costs.
    What explains the lack of order and organization in the life of Esenin and his attempts to freeload at another's expense? Let's say this from the onset that he doesn't notice his own propensity to "climb on the shoulders of others".
    [..]
    Often it is the sharp and categorical approach of the SLE, his unwillingness to be sensitive towards his at time overbearing dual, that provides for the IEI the much needed focus and organization. Partners of other types often experience a need to resort to these kinds of "methods" to bring the IEI to his senses. Understandably, they run into problems reproducing what comes naturally to Zhukov. On the example of a young woman of type SEE explaining her issues to her therapist: "I don't know what to do. By nature I am a warm and friendly person, but at the fault of my husband I turn into a complete bitch. He is as if constantly mocking me and testing my patience. He continues to push my buttons until I snap and answer him sharply and pound my fist on the table. But this is so unpleasant for me, I start hating myself for it afterwards ..."


    Once my parents complained that I never listen to what they say until they start yelling. I realized that otherwise, it's as if I literally perceive "commands" as suggestions. It also took me a while to realize that the jokingly toned things my LII brother said (e.g. "hey I see you don't like fully stopping at stop signs huh") were actually things he wanted me to do or change. When my mom pointed it out, it was a huge "Oh..." moment.
    So yeah.. you can't be gentle with Ni bases.

    (hahaha i just remembered I dreamt that I married a nondescript dude solely characterized as being LSE. are these the types of "bad dreams" i'm going to start getting, now that I know socionics? LOL)

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Unlike Se PoLRs, if someone has demo Se and is gentle with me.. I'd just slowly take advantage of it.
    I think this is an understated aspect of supervision relations that adds to the psychological distress of the supervisee. Not only is the supervisee's PoLR constantly hit without the ability of a complete conflictor to "fight back", but the supervisee's area of greatest instrumentality (demonstrative, the 4D producing function) is exhausted by the unlimited, generalized need of the supervisor's dual-seeking rather than appreciated on a visceral level for its protective ability (as would be the case for the supervisee's dual).

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    On a semi unrelated note of Se DS vs Se PoLR inspired by what asd wrote.

    Unlike Se PoLRs, if someone has demo Se and is gentle with me.. I'd just slowly take advantage of it. What Strat writes is on point:

    If Zhukov did not possess such qualities, he would have turned into a disorganized IEI himself. This, by the way, is what happens when members of other sociotypes become IEI's partners - the IEI begins to relax them and then freeloads at their expense: "You feel so good with me - why not do some work for me?" It is exactly with Zhukov that this trick doesn't pass. Even though he, too, can do a lot for the IEI, but the SLE won't allow anyone to freeload, or at least he/she will try to avoid this at all costs.
    What explains the lack of order and organization in the life of Esenin and his attempts to freeload at another's expense? Let's say this from the onset that he doesn't notice his own propensity to "climb on the shoulders of others".
    [..]
    Often it is the sharp and categorical approach of the SLE, his unwillingness to be sensitive towards his at time overbearing dual, that provides for the IEI the much needed focus and organization. Partners of other types often experience a need to resort to these kinds of "methods" to bring the IEI to his senses. Understandably, they run into problems reproducing what comes naturally to Zhukov. On the example of a young woman of type SEE explaining her issues to her therapist: "I don't know what to do. By nature I am a warm and friendly person, but at the fault of my husband I turn into a complete bitch. He is as if constantly mocking me and testing my patience. He continues to push my buttons until I snap and answer him sharply and pound my fist on the table. But this is so unpleasant for me, I start hating myself for it afterwards ..."


    Once my parents complained that I never listen to what they say until they start yelling. I realized that otherwise, it's as if I literally perceive "commands" as suggestions. It also took me a while to realize that the jokingly toned things my LII brother said (e.g. "hey I see you don't like fully stopping at stop signs huh") were actually things he wanted me to do or change. When my mom pointed it out, it was a huge "Oh..." moment.
    So yeah.. you can't be gentle with Ni bases.

    (hahaha i just remembered I dreamt that I married a nondescript dude solely characterized as being LSE. are these the types of "bad dreams" i'm going to start getting, now that I know socionics? LOL)
    This is so accurate it hurts. I am prone to freeloading and getting off easy with people and I honestly hate it. It makes me feel like a disgusting parasite but I find it hard to do otherwise. I guess the reason is that I am an IEI but I don’t want that to be an excuse. Unfortunately, the tendency seems as natural as breathing.
    Something I have noticed living with exclusively Se demo types almost my whole life is that part of the reason ITR goes sour with them is because, well they are Se demo. They have that caregiver style in their relationships and expect you to reciprocate with gratitude and I guess playfulness to keep their batteries charged, but the tendency is to take that for granted in poor ITR. They also highly value people who are productive, responsible, and take initiative (in their eyes), and I’d imagine definitely expect it from people who don’t have the childlike style. Yet I act all victim-y when they want me to be childlike, and sit around until someone gives me commands moment-by-moment instead of automatically doing whatever is supposedly expected of me. That’s how I work I guess, when somebody is the established “boss” I just wait until I am given orders. That is when they begin to see me as lazy so they finally pull out that demo Se I was waiting for, but it is never pleasant because by then they are just irate. Being subjected to angry Se targeted at me just feels like a painful rejection.

    Now in keeping with the thread topic, for the demo Te of SLE, I like how they are willing to use it behind closed doors where I don’t have to always get involved. At least, I think that is how it works. Te is like a menial little fly that they would rather just swiftly swat away themselves and be done with it. Somehow, it isn’t as good from ILE which probably has to do with quadra values and blah blah, but it’s still nice. The SLE’s strong Se is nice in general, but if for nothing else, then for the consequently weak Ni that makes me valuable to them. It’s nice to be appreciated. Sometimes, SEE are bit too rebellious and wild with Se for my taste, but from SLE Se I’d imagine it would be more pleasant. Overall, I’d say they are both equally important for maximum comfort. I would take one SLE over an ILE and SEE any day. Maybe...

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    Yes it is just as important. Actually for me it's easier to form meaningful realtionships with ILEs than it is with SEEs so maybe Te dem is even more important. I don't really know because it's hard to differentiate the 2 when it comes to my duals. What I can say is that Se seems to excite me while Te dem has a more calming effect on me.

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    Seems like Se demonstratives can either help or haunt you

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    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    Yes it is just as important. Actually for me it's easier to form meaningful realtionships with ILEs than it is with SEEs so maybe Te dem is even more important. I don't really know because it's hard to differentiate the 2 when it comes to my duals. What I can say is that Se seems to excite me while Te dem has a more calming effect on me.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeliMeat View Post
    This is so accurate it hurts. I am prone to freeloading and getting off easy with people and I honestly hate it. It makes me feel like a disgusting parasite but I find it hard to do otherwise. I guess the reason is that I am an IEI but I don’t want that to be an excuse. Unfortunately, the tendency seems as natural as breathing.
    Something I have noticed living with exclusively Se demo types almost my whole life is that part of the reason ITR goes sour with them is because, well they are Se demo. They have that caregiver style in their relationships and expect you to reciprocate with gratitude and I guess playfulness to keep their batteries charged, but the tendency is to take that for granted in poor ITR. They also highly value people who are productive, responsible, and take initiative (in their eyes), and I’d imagine definitely expect it from people who don’t have the childlike style. Yet I act all victim-y when they want me to be childlike, and sit around until someone gives me commands moment-by-moment instead of automatically doing whatever is supposedly expected of me. That’s how I work I guess, when somebody is the established “boss” I just wait until I am given orders. That is when they begin to see me as lazy so they finally pull out that demo Se I was waiting for, but it is never pleasant because by then they are just irate. Being subjected to angry Se targeted at me just feels like a painful rejection.

    Now in keeping with the thread topic, for the demo Te of SLE, I like how they are willing to use it behind closed doors where I don’t have to always get involved. At least, I think that is how it works. Te is like a menial little fly that they would rather just swiftly swat away themselves and be done with it. Somehow, it isn’t as good from ILE which probably has to do with quadra values and blah blah, but it’s still nice. The SLE’s strong Se is nice in general, but if for nothing else, then for the consequently weak Ni that makes me valuable to them. It’s nice to be appreciated. Sometimes, SEE are bit too rebellious and wild with Se for my taste, but from SLE Se I’d imagine it would be more pleasant. Overall, I’d say they are both equally important for maximum comfort. I would take one SLE over an ILE and SEE any day. Maybe...
    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    I think this is an understated aspect of supervision relations that adds to the psychological distress of the supervisee. Not only is the supervisee's PoLR constantly hit without the ability of a complete conflictor to "fight back", but the supervisee's area of greatest instrumentality (demonstrative, the 4D producing function) is exhausted by the unlimited, generalized need of the supervisor's dual-seeking rather than appreciated on a visceral level for its protective ability (as would be the case for the supervisee's dual).
    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    On a semi unrelated note of Se DS vs Se PoLR inspired by what asd wrote.

    Unlike Se PoLRs, if someone has demo Se and is gentle with me.. I'd just slowly take advantage of it. What Strat writes is on point:

    If Zhukov did not possess such qualities, he would have turned into a disorganized IEI himself. This, by the way, is what happens when members of other sociotypes become IEI's partners - the IEI begins to relax them and then freeloads at their expense: "You feel so good with me - why not do some work for me?" It is exactly with Zhukov that this trick doesn't pass. Even though he, too, can do a lot for the IEI, but the SLE won't allow anyone to freeload, or at least he/she will try to avoid this at all costs.
    What explains the lack of order and organization in the life of Esenin and his attempts to freeload at another's expense? Let's say this from the onset that he doesn't notice his own propensity to "climb on the shoulders of others".
    [..]
    Often it is the sharp and categorical approach of the SLE, his unwillingness to be sensitive towards his at time overbearing dual, that provides for the IEI the much needed focus and organization. Partners of other types often experience a need to resort to these kinds of "methods" to bring the IEI to his senses. Understandably, they run into problems reproducing what comes naturally to Zhukov. On the example of a young woman of type SEE explaining her issues to her therapist: "I don't know what to do. By nature I am a warm and friendly person, but at the fault of my husband I turn into a complete bitch. He is as if constantly mocking me and testing my patience. He continues to push my buttons until I snap and answer him sharply and pound my fist on the table. But this is so unpleasant for me, I start hating myself for it afterwards ..."


    Once my parents complained that I never listen to what they say until they start yelling. I realized that otherwise, it's as if I literally perceive "commands" as suggestions. It also took me a while to realize that the jokingly toned things my LII brother said (e.g. "hey I see you don't like fully stopping at stop signs huh") were actually things he wanted me to do or change. When my mom pointed it out, it was a huge "Oh..." moment.
    So yeah.. you can't be gentle with Ni bases.

    (hahaha i just remembered I dreamt that I married a nondescript dude solely characterized as being LSE. are these the types of "bad dreams" i'm going to start getting, now that I know socionics? LOL)
    A platonic fuckin' thanks to my IEI duals & the EIIs here.

    That's all I gotta say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    Yes it is just as important. Actually for me it's easier to form meaningful realtionships with ILEs than it is with SEEs so maybe Te dem is even more important. I don't really know because it's hard to differentiate the 2 when it comes to my duals. What I can say is that Se seems to excite me while Te dem has a more calming effect on me.
    Hah, SEE's. It is a lot like either storming ahead chaotically or chores/keeping things in order (wrong visual stmuli or something hurts them which could make them good keeping order). That is where they logic functions.
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    Coming in from a different angle, I think I prefer someone with Fi PoLR rather than Ni DS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Coming in from a different angle, I think I prefer someone with Fi PoLR rather than Ni DS.
    I'm buddies with an SEI-Fe. She's Te Polr, obviously. Tbh, I can kinda deal my own Ni. Not necessarily beggjng an IEI for it. My Ni ain't perfect, but it ain't dogsh*t either. I'd say for duals, expectations might get too epic. I dig getting close but not too close, if that makes any sense. Mirage tends to be decent for that scenario

    Then again, maybe I'm just drunk rn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Coming in from a different angle, I think I prefer someone with Fi PoLR rather than Ni DS.
    Same with me and Si DS
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindFreak420 View Post
    Same with me and Si DS
    Would you say you prefer help with Te Polr or with Ne DS?

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    I'm not sure... are we supposed to seek out our dual's demonstrative function? Wouldn't the HA be much more valuable? (not that I disagree, just that I'm curious).

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    XSE Se is generally helpful to me, especially if they know and like me (as in they tailor it to me). At least in the "they can take care of it" sense. Sometimes it's more than I want to be around, and that can be problematic, especially if they really want me involved. But I still think it's been workable. Part of why I think I've made it work is that I don't think any one person is "completion" for another. This frees up a person to have fun with someone(s) else that also enjoys the same things.

    A dual (or mirage even) is a place of rest and support. Fun doesn't have to be limited to that one relationship, and in fact I think if you want excitement you should look elsewhere.

    I suppose that can be a problem if you're in a monogamous relationship and the demonstrative fun you want involves sex. But I still think (perhaps naively?) that it's workable, especially if both people are "mature" and open to adjusting and learning and growing.

    (If just one person is accommodating then that leads to disaster because boundaries and clear communication is important, too, but I digress.)


    Anyway, the Se of XSE usually manifests around me as more subtle pushes and filling in of needed blanks than the in-the-face-ness that comes from Se-egos or -lovers.
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  22. #22

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    Fe demo.
    The thing is, I have enough Fe experience to pass for IEI, even an Fe subtype, but it's nerve wracking. Being in high Fe settings tend to leave me distressed, faint, dizzy, or nauseated over time. I will do good enough, but I don't feel good about it. It kills my drive, makes me second-guess everything.
    There's a time I thought it was something like autism, but it's not. Around an Fi creative, I can become very bright and energetic. There's one time I met an SEE or IEE at a party and ended being the life of that party, that was nonsensical for my usual low-energy loner self, lol.
    I must add I grew up with an SEE sister, so that did play a part in how I need less Se than I should. I had to do some cleaning in what to keep tho, but her memory is energizing to me.
    I like when people don't care much about Fe, and can even mock it, it has a soothing effect on me. Of course, being mean about Fe for the sake of being mean bothers me, I prefer if a thing I'm stressed about gets a bit ridiculized as in it's not as important as I think it is.

  23. #23
    StaticMind's Avatar
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    Definitely help with Te PoLR. The amount of times I mess up Te stuff is too many to count.
    SEI-Fe • 9w1 • Sp/Sx • EVFL • Normalizing •


  24. #24
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    Well as an INFj with Se polr I can say that I worry about possible implications of my actions and not having a great gasp of will sensory I can stress myself out so what I do is explain to an Estj and they put the hat of reality on it more often than not telling me how things will go and not worry about it because they will take care of it. So yeah I would say they have a great handle on reality and often know what should be done. The Te logic of actions works for me when my own Se kicks in
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post
    I'm not sure... are we supposed to seek out our dual's demonstrative function? Wouldn't the HA be much more valuable? (not that I disagree, just that I'm curious).
    I'd say they're intertwined because they're both T (for us IEIs).
    How i understand it is xLE transmute Te into Ti -->they "shield" others from Te cause they do support it, just indirectly through Ti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post
    I'm not sure... are we supposed to seek out our dual's demonstrative function? Wouldn't the HA be much more valuable? (not that I disagree, just that I'm curious).
    The demonstrative is unconscious, not truly verbalized. When you meet a dual/mirage part of the deal is that they cover your polr for you. Interesting analogy would be getting a warranty on your tires The warranty ain't on your mind till the tires bust. If they do, the warranty covers you free. (With dual/mirage, the warranty doesn't expire)

    Working on your DS is somewhat fun. Working on your polr absolutely sucks.

  27. #27
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    I'm not sure all people do appreciate their duals' demonstrative. Might tie into general immaturity. Most people seem blind when they're young to their vulnerable function in the sense that they don't recognize it at all, and some people never grow out of that. If you don't learn to identify your weaknesses or care about improving them, you're unlikely to care if your dual can utilize their demonstrative well.

    ESEs seem to me particularly blind to Ni, but it may be I just notice this more with them.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I'm not sure all people do appreciate their duals' demonstrative. Might tie into general immaturity. Most people seem blind when they're young to their vulnerable function in the sense that they don't recognize it at all, and some people never grow out of that. If you don't learn to identify your weaknesses or care about improving them, you're unlikely to care if your dual can utilize their demonstrative well.

    ESEs seem to me particularly blind to Ni, but it may be I just notice this more with them.
    That's what I was thinking. It's not so easy to recognize your polr at all (vs. role function which is more conscious).

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    I'd say they're intertwined because they're both T (for us IEIs).
    How i understand it is xLE transmute Te into Ti -->they "shield" others from Te cause they do support it, just indirectly through Ti.
    I always thought that they transmute Se (conrete reality/sensory perceptions) into Ti / Ne (more intuitive approach) into Ti. But I grew up with an ILE-Ti, so maybe I just became really blind to it in the process.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    ESEs seem to me particularly blind to Ni, but it may be I just notice this more with them.
    ESEs seem this way to me as well. It could be because their PoLR is evolutionary +Ni, meaning they don't go back and correct/analyze their errors as with -Ni. LSE's PoLR is -Ni, so they are prone to getting stuck in the past and holding onto -Ni grudges because they can't move on as easily.

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    Well in theory it's supposed to be something you teach others in this subtle unconscious way without feeling like they themselves have to change to be fixed. Like ashleesha insinuated - when you get your polr hit, it feels like something is expected of you that you can't really naturally deliver. So likewise, receiving your polr in a demonstrative way enables you to navigate the territory without feeling pressured.

    However socionics isn't 'real life' as it were- I still think it's bound to annoy/piss people off if somebody is too polr-ish. No matter what the neat little puzzle pieces say should happen. If you want to talk about how it's wrong to put a pretty ribbon on everything- Model A feels a lot like that in ways. I think that's why usually you have to fix your own weaknesses to an extent before somebody is willing to love you- or for it to be willing to work.

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