MGTOW

[Singu]

Adam, even if we grant that they're embittered single men, isn't it unusual for there to be this many? If MGTOW isn't just a mirage caused by social media's ability to amplify random grievances, and if this is a genuine mass phenomenon, then there has got to be a systemic explanation.

Well actually, I think the problem is "intellectualizing" emotional hurts, making a philosophy out of it and then spreading as memes on the internet. It's natural to feel hurt when people don't find you unattractive. But if you don't handle and process that emotion properly, then you're bound to blame others for the hurt that you're feeling, which men are more likely to do than women. That's probably why men go on shooting sprees and women don't.

There are some "crazy" women that poorly handle emotions and don't have the ability to process them in healthy ways. They may stalk men that reject them or threaten to kill them or verbally abuse them or something. But those women are relatively rare.

I think the problem has mainly to do with how poorly men in general handle and process emotions, and not giving themselves the emotional support that they need.

[ashlesha]

I'm getting tired + drunk, so I'm losing track of my thoughts, but I'll do my best. Essentially, when you note a problem, trying to explain its cause by resorting to biological explanations doesn't lead you anywhere except to justify the existence of that problem. It may be the case that women are biologically inclined to hypergamy, but if that's your explanation for why this phenomenon is occurring then your conclusion must be that present conditions were inevitable and nothing can be done to change them; the only rational responses would be MGTOW or redpill/pickup artistry, hence why MGTOW use these kinds of biological explanations. Similarly if you ask "why am I so miserable," a Catholic might answer "humans are born evil"; this leads to the conclusion that nothing short of divine intervention can fix this problem, hence the need for the church and Catholics' relative attitude of passivity (as opposed to evangelicals for instance who are too stupid and uninterested to develop a comprehensive world-view). A response like "human nature" is virtually always true (at least in some respects), but it paralyzes any ideas of change, and tends to discourage consideration of why conditions may once have been different, or what might cause them to change.

I don't see a "human nature" response as necessarily leading to specific conclusions about action, but I'm about to fall asleep myself.

[End]

For a group that supposedly values autonomy and personal responsibility, Mgtows sure love playing the victim and blaming other people for all of their problems.

If a man feels burdened by the responsibilities of getting married and having children, then he should stay single forever. Like seriously, who cares lol. What’s troubling about mgtows is their hatred of women and attitude of male supremacy.

@ashlesha mgtow.com has a good About section and FAQ page if you want a quick summary of what they’re all about.

This too is a problem that springs from attachment issues. For the "detached" (i.e. those who have attachment issues) they actually intensely love others, but they also fundamentally believe that their feelings aren't worthy of reciprocation.

I've said it before but I'll say it again, we're more "animalistic" than we'd like to believe. If mommy divorced daddy when you were three you didn't have the mental capacity to grasp the variables that could have been in play (i.e. say she divorced him for very justifiable reasons like cheating or abuse) . You only knew that a rather significant guarantor of your survival up and disappeared and that it was almost certainly your fault.

No, this is not true. Yes, it makes absolutely no logical sense. Yet your subconscious/animal brain operates on the criteria that yes that is true and it makes total logical sense and, sadly as I've also pointed out, that "animal brain" has priority in regards to our cognition. The emotional centers of the mind activate first, and then the logical/rational centers do. That means, again as I've said before, that we "feel" first and then "justify/rationalize" those feelings with our logic. Perhaps some brains operate differently, like if we got a really, really, really autistic person than maybe that might not be true. But that's just a personal potential thought experiment.

Like I said, the slut sleeps around because she sees herself as fundamentally unlovable as a person but she does know that most any man will act in a positive manner towards her if she but spreads her legs and accepts his cum/acts like she's sexually interested in him. At least she won't be abandoned so long as she puts out. If and only if she puts out. Broken men (i.e. a large quantity of the MGTOW crowd) often come to the opposite coping strategy with attachment issues (one I admit I came to for a time).

Nobody will ever truly love them. Well then fine! Fuck em'! I don't need them to survive anyway! Hell, don't even need my direct family if I'm being honest. They'll probably abandon me anyway. Too bad for those fuckers a man really can be an island. Fire. Weapons. Calories. Survival is a science that can be mastered by a single individual within this atmosphere and on this planet and on a rather shoestring budget to boot! Those fools will all die when the end comes. But not me. No. I will survive without others if only to spite the fucks who hate me. They all hate me. (Why? I just want someone, just one other person to like me for being who I am...)

I hit "fuck it" shortly afterward and decided to just be honest because after all, dying alone would suck and why postpone the inevitable anyway? Yeah, you'll probably get betrayed and hated but after all that was gonna happen anyway so, again, why postpone the inevitable? Hell, maybe I'm wrong and people aren't really as bad as I assume them to be. A man can dream right? You never know until you try and being a fearful/hateful little bitch ain't very metal and as I love Heavy Metal I ought to try to be at least a little metal eh?

Pretty much all the malaise and miasma that surrounds modern existence stems from attachment issues. Issues that would have been handily avoided if everyone had followed the examples set forth by Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. If people had such a healthy and loving family growing up there would be scant few MGTOW's, porn stars, sluts, and other "degenerates" as it were.

Now consider how Pop Culture here in the West looks down upon full time mothers and loving fathers. Try getting a movie or TV show featuring those archetypes made. You won't, because the PTB don't want that. Healthy people with secure attachment styles aren't easy to manipulate and control. Broken people though? Sluts, Danger Haired Feminists, SJW's, pick-up artists, MGTOW's, etc? Damned easy to control. Note, again, you can't really create such broken people within a civilization and culture that accepts Jesus. Hence why Christianity is the foremost religion denigrated and hated by the PTB. Make no mistake though, they hate the others just as much, but the others are easier to "deal with" given their end goals and mindset. One works their way down a "threat stack" from the top down if they're being logical. Food for thought...

[xerx]

I don't think there's much "solution" to this other than to simply say "work harder" to attract women. And if you can't attract any women, then perhaps it's better to simply stay single, and invest in friends or hobbies or volunteering and what not.

Women have their own "logic" in whom they find attractive, just like men do. You may find that to be fair or unfair. But it's futile to try to change and control who people find attractive.

Anyway, it's their own fault for succumbing to cynicism and nihilism by bringing down "SJWs" and "white knighting" and "simps" so on. Men themselves have made men more pathetic, valueless and therefore as a result are becoming even more unattractive.

It may not be that easy to "work harder to attract women". This won't sound very politically correct, but women tend not to want less educated and less successful men as long-term partners. Whether this is by nature or by nurture, it's not changing any time soon.

Yet, not only are the majority of post-secondary students women now, but women are beginning to outpace men in terms of salary. This phenomenon isn't isolated to the feminist West either. Women are better educated than men in the Islamic Republic of Iran (seriously). Women are either equal or outnumber men in most of the Middle East, including that abyss of reactionary Islamism known as Saudi Arabia.

For whatever reason, women are better able to navigate modern work and education. One theory put forward is that women are simply better at passive learning, which revolves around sitting down quietly and taking notes.

Putting aside the misogyny, there is something substantial being carried along by this movement. We may see it reflected in the compositions of future electorates.

[The Reality Denialist]

So people seek to commit to this ideology.

I'm still going my own way. (That said I'm quite antisexual as a person)

[Singu]

It may not be that easy to "work harder to attract women". This won't sound very politically correct, but women tend not to want less educated and less successful men as long-term partners. Whether this is by nature or by nurture, it's not changing any time soon.

Well suppose that's true, but what can be done about it? It seems like most women would rather be single than be with someone that they don't like. I don't think there's going to be any solution other than to make themselves more attractive to women, somehow. We can't force women to be attracted to certain kinds of men, just because they're angry or something.

We really can't blame the other person for not being attracted to us, as that's ridiculous. I mean yes, it does hurt, but that hurt needs to be processed and expressed in healthy ways without blaming others, without intellectualizing or rationalizing, which these men are failing to do. What they need is better emotional training.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Well suppose that's true, but what can be done about it? It seems like most women would rather be single than be with someone that they don't like. I don't think there's going to be any solution other than to make themselves more attractive to women, somehow. We can't force women to be attracted to certain kinds of men, just because they're angry or something.

We really can't blame the other person for not being attracted to us, as that's ridiculous. I mean yes, it does hurt, but that hurt needs to be processed and expressed in healthy ways without blaming others, without intellectualizing or rationalizing, which these men are failing to do. What they need is better emotional training.

We can’t make women more like men want them to be, so we should make men more like women want them to be? I notice how it always seems to be men’s responsibility to change.

[Singu]

We can’t make women more like men want them to be, so we should make men more like women want them to be? I notice how it always seems to be men’s responsibility to change.

If women weren't what men want them to be, then men wouldn't be attracted to them.

Still, "lowering the standards of men" isn't going to be helping anyone, as it would only lower the value of men and make them more unattractive in the end.

[myresearch]

I only know one male who abides to rules of red pill. He abided the rules when he wasn't attracted enough and one of my friends liked him. He treated her like shit. Then he had a huge crush on my other friend, she liked the attention but didn't get attracted by him as he did to her. He totally transformed into this clingy desperate acarid. Both scenarios may seem opposite, but the root of those behaviors actually are the same and which is a deep seated insecurity.

Most people who have turn this dating scenery into men vs women aren't able to grasp other kind of perspectives. I know both male and female who thinks they want a loving relationship, matches up with people who can't provide that, then blame it on the opposite gender. When you put those people in the same environment though, they are not attracted by each other. Because they somehow are attracted to people who confirm their kind of thinking. Hence, some women think men are emotionless, untrustworthy cheating assholes who only aim to use them and some men think women are emotionless, untrustworthy greedy bitches who only aim to use them. Ofcourse those kind of people exist, but there are also other types of people out there. I can't understand how someone can see it as gender issue, because this is a human issue.

fgtow-ish kind of perspective:

[Adam Strange]

^ For a while there, when I was drinking and drugging a lot, I had a string of crazy girlfriends. My IEE sister-in-law asked me what they all had in common?

[ashlesha]

Being isolated more intensely and for twice the normal time period while my brain was soft and rewiring and the internet was my primary contact with the outside world positioned me to be extremely fkd up by redpill shit in ways that this forum homebase has been an excellent reprieve from, maybe literally a lifesaver actually lol. But will never understand and that's good. I could say a lot about it that wouldn't be publicly appropriate but it's not useful and more about Fi than Ti for me, so can't talk about specific tenets exactly.and I'm sure I'm articulating myself like shit. Anyway. Seems to me the point of this redpill business would be to work WITH nature and not to point fingers counterproductively but I know how ppl are

[FreelancePoliceman]

Being isolated more intensely and for twice the normal time period while my brain was soft and rewiring and the internet was my primary contact with the outside world positioned me to be extremely fkd up by redpill shit in ways that this forum homebase has been an excellent reprieve from, maybe literally a lifesaver actually lol. But will never understand and that's good. I could say a lot about it that wouldn't be publicly appropriate but it's not useful and more about Fi than Ti for me, so can't talk about specific tenets exactly.and I'm sure I'm articulating myself like shit. Anyway. Seems to me the point of this redpill business would be to work WITH nature and not to point fingers counterproductively but I know how ppl are

I’d be pretty interested to hear how you feel the Internet rewriting your brain affected you, even if you struggle to articulate it well.

[ashlesha]

I’d be pretty interested to hear how you feel the Internet rewriting your brain affected you, even if you struggle to articulate it well.

I'll put ur PMs down as a place for that novel to go if I ever feel like writing it

[FreelancePoliceman]

I'll put ur PMs down as a place for that novel to go if I ever feel like writing it

Some Internet historian will someday be very disappointed, but thank you.

[xerx]

Well suppose that's true, but what can be done about it? It seems like most women would rather be single than be with someone that they don't like. I don't think there's going to be any solution other than to make themselves more attractive to women, somehow. We can't force women to be attracted to certain kinds of men, just because they're angry or something.

We really can't blame the other person for not being attracted to us, as that's ridiculous. I mean yes, it does hurt, but that hurt needs to be processed and expressed in healthy ways without blaming others, without intellectualizing or rationalizing, which these men are failing to do. What they need is better emotional training.

Well, there's no turning back the clock on women's liberation. Even if we wanted to (I most certainly don't), feminism is too strong. I mean, it's stronger than reactionary Islam, and reactionary Islam is strong enough to melt steel beams.

[Singu]

It seems like this whole "manosphere" is just an age-old trope about emotional constipation of men vs. acknowledging the soft and vulnerable feelings that they actually have. Men typically have to find the right balance between "being strong" and "being soft" and vulnerable. But why would you have to, though? Isn't that unfair? Why should men have to put in all the "work"?

But then, do you really have a choice? The reality is that if you don't, then some other guy with more power will beat you (literally or figuratively), and the people that you care about. I mean sure, you could just stand by and watch while you let injustice unfold. You could just run away. Or worse, women will be unattracted to you (the horror), because a woman can't be attracted to someone that can't protect her (it would mean the death of either).

Most gay men don't care about "being strong", because they don't care about attracting women. They would rather play the role of a woman. My guess is that if these "MGTOW" people truly didn't care about women, then they would be acting more or less like gay men. But even if you didn't care about women, it would just be cowardice to let injustice unfold right in front of you.

Some men take it to the extreme, and forget about the other side. They're so desperate to become "strong" (or simply appear strong) that they forget, or they want to look away from the softer side that they actually have. So they become emotionally constipated, become humorless, etc. Basically, this prevents him from reaching new heights and growing as a person, emotionally. It also alienates him from the people that he actually cares about, and also from the society as a whole, if he could even manage to connect to people in the first place.

Being "masculine" doesn't necessarily mean "being an asshole". If being extremely-evil is masculine, then so is being extremely-good. Masculinity is a double-edged sword. So you have a choice in having the right balance. If some men are allured by this "manosphere" due to their naivety, confusion and desperation, then they're obviously making the wrong choice, as it would not ultimately benefit them in the end.

So if the premise of the manosphere is flawed, then so is the conclusion. Therefore, it would not make sense to give in to the irrational demands of the manosphere. The only right thing to do, is to let these men walk away from the manosphere, for good. The alternative is to have a healthy and "good" masculinity, which accepts the reality of having softer and vulnerable feelings, which allows one to connect to people without feeling alienated, allows one to protect the people that he cares about, and to express the feelings that he actually have, without needing to ignore or suppress them. Ultimately, all of these things will allow him to grow as a person and to make him feel as a whole. The "manosphere" will only squander all of that potential. So are any other things that are ultimately dehumanizing.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Well, there's no turning back the clock on women's liberation. Even if we wanted to (I most certainly don't), feminism is too strong. I mean, it's stronger than reactionary Islam, and reactionary Islam is strong enough to melt steel beams.

Apparently only to melt them, but for those beams to remain hot for months afterward.

[The Reality Denialist]

There is something about this stuff. Going through normal motions in life is exhausting. Probably when both parties get grip of this then comes the third party and the fourth one... nth one... and all try to get their own share. Basically this so called normal life as of today is unsustainable. Conflict of interests at the most basic level. Putting a label of "men"/"women" in it is not constructive - there is a forest of problems while all what they do is bark a tree.


Anyway, I have gone full MGTOW according to their definitions, so whatever.

[Singu]

I don't really buy the argument that it's some sort of a systematic issue where less women finding men attractive because they're getting more educated than men, and hence there are greater numbers of lonely men than before that are frustrated.

There are cases like in China where men outnumber women due to their one-child policy, so while it's true that this would create more lonely men that are frustrated, it also creates fiercer competition among men because they'd have to compete for fewer women. This would force men to "work harder" for women, and financial competition among men in China is extremely fierce in order for them to attract women.

So, do these increasing number of lonely men in China create incel/MGTOW-like attitudes? Or does it not?

[ashlesha]

both sexes have a little griping to do, but the emo required to go full mgtow is beyond me.

there has to be an equivalent for females but not a big deal with a brand name? or is there something unique about the psychological pipeline here

[Singu]

both sexes have a little griping to do, but the emo required to go full mgtow is beyond me.

there has to be an equivalent for females but not a big deal with a brand name? or is there something unique about the psychological pipeline here

There's sort of a "radical feminist" movement in South Korea that's somewhat equivalent, it's called "Escape the Corset" movement, where they vow to never get married, have boyfriends, wear make-up, etc. It's more of a defensive move than an offensive one.

[ashlesha]

i would really like to be generous, but u often just cant : (

[xerx]

I don't really buy the argument that it's some sort of a systematic issue where less women finding men attractive because they're getting more educated than men, and hence there are greater numbers of lonely men than before that are frustrated.

The movement seems broad. There's everything from full-on racism, to libertarianism, to wanting to become a confirmed bachelor, to just wanting to live alone in an RV trailer. The movement is hard to classify, but the main connecting thread, as far as I can tell, is that men are dealt a weak hand in their relationship to women and society, and that the response is to avoid marriage and other traditional obligations.

Full disclosure: the independence theme (of just doing your own thing) kind of appeals to me; but, beyond that, I'm not very interested in the philosophy itself. I'm really more interested in why this movement exists in the first place.

[Singu]

The movement seems broad. There's everything from full-on racism, to libertarianism, to wanting to become a confirmed bachelor, to just wanting to live alone in an RV trailer. The movement is hard to classify, but the main connecting thread, as far as I can tell, is that men are dealt a weak hand in their relationship to women and society, and that the response is to avoid marriage and other traditional obligations.

Full disclosure: the independence theme (of just doing your own thing) kind of appeals to me; but, beyond that, I'm not very interested in the philosophy itself. I'm really more interested in why this movement exists in the first place.

It appears that the main connecting thread is that of male supremacy and the belief that feminism is "ruining society":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way

Ideology

At the center of MGTOW ideology is the notion of male separatism and the belief that society has been corrupted by feminism. MGTOW groups are misogynist and anti-feminist, believing that feminism has made women dangerous to men, and that male self-preservation requires dissociating completely from women. They believe there is systemic gynocentric bias against men, including double standards in gender roles and bias against men in family courts. MGTOW groups share a belief common among other manosphere groups that women follow a similar pattern in dating and marriage: young and attractive women are promiscuous and engage in "hypergamy", having sex with numerous men and abandoning a man if a "higher-value" man shows interest. They believe women gravitate towards "alpha men" who are attractive but mistreat them, and that this solidifies their beliefs in feminism. As the women begin to age, the MGTOW ideology explains that they choose to settle down with "beta males" who provide for them financially, but to whom they deny sex, sometimes choosing to have sex with attractive men outside of their marriage. Finally, the ideology holds that the women will divorce their husbands, and that courts will favor the women in divorce proceedings due to what they describe as female privilege.

Reactions

A 2020 paper in Information, Communication & Society stated that "MGTOW propagate extensive and wide-ranging passive or undirected harassment and misogyny on Twitter." Fellows at the Institute for Research on Male Supremacism publishing with the International Centre for Counter-Terrorism have said that members of MGTOW "openly disdain women, and normalize it through online harassment."

Researchers have implicated MGTOW communities in online harassment of women. In January 2020 a group of computer scientists published a preprint of a paper titled "The Evolution of the Manosphere Across the Web"; r/MGTOW and the MGTOW Forum were among the online communities which the authors said "have been growing in size and in their involvement in online harassment and real-world violence." The paper was described in MIT Technology Review in 2020 as "the most complete picture yet of the misogynistic groups that fuel the incel movement online" and in Der Spiegel in 2021 as "the most comprehensive attempt yet to analyze the manosphere online". Shortly after publication, Reddit quarantined the r/MGTOW subreddit, a restriction the platform applies to subreddits determined to be "extremely offensive or upsetting to the average redditor" which prevents them from earning advertising revenue and requires visitors to agree to seeing potentially offensive content before entering.

The Southern Poverty Law Center categorizes MGTOW as a part of the male supremacist ideology, a category they began tracking on their hate group tracking project, Hate Map, in 2018.

Even some men on this forum seem to have the same beliefs, which suggest that they have been influenced by the MGTOW ideology. But to the average person, it appears that this kind of worldview is generally disconcerting, and the reaction varies from general mockery to outright hostility. Very few but the people themselves seem to have sympathies for their beliefs. This goes for both men and women, but of course that women are overwhelmingly so.

Given that this is an ideology, of course that their response is going to be "they have been brainwashed by feminism" "they haven't taken the red pill", etc. The assumption that their beliefs are incorrect would render the entire ideology to be false. There are going to be some grains of truths no matter how ridiculous a belief is, but that doesn't mean that you'd have to see things through the lens of male supremacy and misogyny. It would appear that even if all of their complaints have been addressed, they would still continue to pile on complaints about women in general.

[ashlesha]

i was always baffled at the idea that with their poor mental constitution and natural meekness, women coordinated to succeed in bringing down the sex more suited for and interested in power

bad Ti imo

[xerx]

It appears that the main connecting thread is that of male supremacy and the belief that feminism is "ruining society"

They're male separatists, and their claims are more radical than that. They believe that women's biology hardwires them to be in opposition to men; that all societies, including traditional conservative ones, are built around the needs of women and always have been, with men being the workhorses; and that feminism is simply the codification of women's rational preferences, being, under different guises, the dominant ideology of every society.

Even some men on this forum seem to have the same beliefs, which suggest that they have been influenced by the MGTOW ideology. But to the average person, it appears that this kind of worldview is generally disconcerting, and the reaction varies from general mockery to outright hostility. Very few but the people themselves seem to have sympathies for their beliefs. This goes for both men and women, but of course that women are overwhelmingly so.

Yeah, everyone hates them the same way everyone hated ISIS, but I've seen it spread too. I'm going to keep an eye on how this movement could affect future election outcomes.

[Singu]

They're male separatists, and their claims are more radical than that. They believe that women's biology hardwires them to be in opposition to men; that all societies, including traditional conservative ones, are built around the needs of women and always have been, with men being the workhorses; and that feminism is simply the codification of women's rational preferences, being, under different guises, the dominant ideology of every society.

Well, that sounds like cheap rationalization of the fact that they were rejected by women. This Hanau shooter who killed 9 people was influenced by the MGTOW ideology. He had stated that he had not been in a relationship with women for 18 years, not because women had too high standards as incels often claim, but he had too high standards and he wanted "best or nothing".

I just don't understand that if they were such male separatists, then why they don't just leave women alone. Gay men often want to have nothing to do with women, so they create their own spaces and go their own merry ways. Perhaps they should be visiting gay bars. If they want to build a society around the male domination of women, then well, that proves that their ideology is that of male supremacy.

[xerx]

Well, that sounds like cheap rationalization of the fact that they were rejected by women.

In quite a few cases, probably. A lot of them are also divorced. The Internet is full of people (of both genders) spewing bile at the other side, and you really do get the impression that relations between the sexes have been poisoned.

[marooned]

People wouldn't be this way if their life was going well for them... Like it's the kind of reactionary-ness that happens when something is wrong and so the world is giving bad things back. I mean sure some feminism is murder but this just isn't about that, not really.

[Singu]

In quite a few cases, probably. A lot of them are also divorced. The Internet is full of people (of both genders) spewing bile at the other side, and you really do get the impression that relations between the sexes have been poisoned.

The relation between the sexes have definitely been poisoned. But who attacked first? It seems like the relation between the sexes "worked" mostly because women have been staying silent of all the abuses done by males, such as stalking, harassment, rapes, etc. But with the advent of the internet and social networking, women have been voicing their experiences that they've had with men. So now that they know that they weren't alone in their experiences, they could start to voice their concerns. This resulted in making some men take responsibilities for their actions. Some men took it as an assault on their privileges, and hence the backlash. Some other men and some women feared that this would worsen the relation between the sexes.

But realistically, what can you do about it? It seems like the natural progression of a new generation of people that can freely share information that is not limited by location. Women have always been sharing information with each other to avoid potential dangers. If there is "manosphere", then perhaps there is also "womanosphere". The "society" of women went from being local to global.

It's probably up to the new generation of men to change their behaviors, if they could do it at all. If they can, then men with bad behaviors should be weeded out. Only then, I think the relation between the sexes could be improved.

[ashlesha]

I call for a formal meeting of the sexes to agree on shared goals and draw up a plan. Who wants to volunteer as a representative

[xerx]

The relation between the sexes have definitely been poisoned. But who attacked first? It seems like the relation between the sexes "worked" mostly because women have been staying silent of all the abuses done by males, such as stalking, harassment, rapes, etc. But with the advent of the internet and social networking, women have been voicing their experiences that they've had with men. So now that they know that they weren't alone in their experiences, they could start to voice their concerns. This resulted in making some men take responsibilities for their actions. Some men took it as an assault on their privileges, and hence the backlash. Some other men and some women feared that this would worsen the relation between the sexes.

But realistically, what can you do about it? It seems like the natural progression of a new generation of people that can freely share information that is not limited by location. Women have always been sharing information with each other to avoid potential dangers. If there is "manosphere", then perhaps there is also "womanosphere". The "society" of women went from being local to global.

It's probably up to the new generation of men to change their behaviors, if they could do it at all. If they can, then men with bad behaviors should be weeded out. Only then, I think the relation between the sexes could be improved.

Weeded out how? How will you get rid of them?

Besides, some of the movement isn't terribly out of place today. If people want to become fully autonomous, avoid relationship drama by never entering into relationships, never get married, and never have kids, they're free to do so. Those are the same rights that feminists have fought hard to acquire for women.

[Adam Strange]

Weeded out how? How will you get rid of them?

Besides, some of the movement isn't terribly out of place today. If people want to become fully autonomous, avoid relationship drama by never entering into relationships, never get married, and never have kids, they're free to do so. Those are the same rights that feminists have fought hard to acquire for women.

From a species standpoint, not having offspring weeds them out.

[Singu]

Weeded out how? How will you get rid of them?

I don't mean literally, but they're forced to change their behavior, or else face rejection from other people.

Besides, some of the movement isn't terribly out of place today. If people want to become fully autonomous, avoid relationship drama by never entering into relationships, never get married, and never have kids, they're free to do so. Those are the same rights that feminists have fought hard to acquire for women.

I'm not against that, but the MGTOW type of people don't seem to be genuine in their intentions, in the same way that perhaps priests and Buddhist monks want to avoid relationships. They want to avoid relationships, but they still want to use women's bodies to have sex. They claim to not want relationships, but get frustrated and shoot up people.

If these men want to get together and support each other, then fine, but that's not what it's about. They're connected together by a shared sense of misogyny and male supremacy.

[Averroes]

I think many men find it hard to reconcile our nihilistic, hyper-sexual instant gratification culture that naturally favors women (for better or worse) with a belief in fairy tail monogamous relationships/marriages and are put off by hypocritical mixed messaging that makes impressionable men less attractive to women

[ashlesha]

I think many men find it hard to reconcile our nihilistic, hyper-sexual instant gratification culture that naturally favors women (for better or worse) with a belief in fairy tail monogamous relationships/marriages and are put off by hypocritical mixed messaging that makes impressionable men less attractive to women

Why do u say fairy tail?

[Adam Strange]

Why do u say fairy tail?

We’d like to assume that autocorrect changed “tale” to “tail”.

On the other hand, maybe he meant that an ideal relationship was chasing fairy tail.

[Averroes]

Why do u say fairy tail?

Typo. I've obviously watched too much anime

[ashlesha]

I didn't mean the misspelling lol. I was just going with it

But is monogamy unrealistic or something?

[Adam Strange]

I didn't mean the misspelling lol. I was just going with it

But is monogamy unrealistic or something?

Humans are designed to have four-year long unsatisfying relationships which are initially hot but which gradually grow increasingly intolerable, so they will switch partners and diversify the gene pool.

When I say "designed", I actually mean that people who did this had a greater chance of passing their genes along, and they are the people from whom we are descended.

Evidently, hating the people in the next tribe over, but having sex with them occasionally, was a thing, too.