Yeah. I think my Fe HA makes up for my absolute mess of an Fi PoLR. I can be kinda “nice” to some but I can end up being a bitch to others. Depends on how they take it and how much of a snowflake wuss they are.Originally Posted by rtht
My SLE dad is a very friendly guy..... he definitely reacts to situations like an SLE though.....I think the FE valuing comes into play there like you say....
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I do not suffer fools gladly.
overall, yes because they value Fi over Fe. their Fe is still very strong, but often used only to support Se-Fi, or in an overly sarcastic way to mock Fe itself.
I'd consider myself to be serious in the sense that I don't compromise when it comes to obtaining the things I seek. I can be jovial and play ball with social groups but when someone, or some petty group rule gets in the way I will move them;and when I do it comes as a shock to people, since they weren't expecting the sudden shift in demeanor or force.
In the more general sense as well some people say my expressions and demeanor are serious, but I do become playful with those I feel comfortable around.
I'm serious, probably more serious than other SEEs. I can be upbeat and jovial, but its largely dependent on my mood and how I view the group I'm in. I don't bury the hatchet, if I don't like you you will know it. I can keep things professional at work though.
Socionics only gets Fi in theory only, in reality, they confuse it with something else. Especially if they are a merry type. There are plenty of mistyped SLEs who are actually SEE, however not so much the other way around. This is an example of this misunderstanding.
Demonstrative Fe is strong and unconscious, there isn't an off switch, it runs in the background. The reason is that it is as strong as the lead function but not valued. Its use is unconventional and used in service to the creative function.
For example, lets say a SEE needs to introduce a Fe PoLR to a group of people. In contrast to a Fe lead who would concentrate on creating a group mood or atmosphere for all to enjoy, if the Fe PoLR begins to act odd or put off by the group activity even a good-natured Fe dom will point this out as an attempt to include the Fe PoLR to get everyone (including the Fe PoLR) in the group to adopt the same mood.
The SEE will not concentrate on group mood in this way, instead, they will concentrate on using group mood to form bonds between members of the group the SEE thinks are compatible with the Fe PoLR. The Fe PoLRs subdued or seemingly apathetic behavior won't be pointed out but navigated much more gently than the Fe lead would handle it.
As for SLE versus SEE, the SEE can adopt a more serious appearance than an SLE. The easy way to determine the two from a distance is that the SEE creates Fe atmospheres much easier than the SLE.
Many people mistake Fi for Ti because they see Ji in action and automatically assume it must be Ti.
Bound upon me, rush upon me, I will overcome you by enduring your onset: whatever strikes against that which is firm and unconquerable merely injures itself by its own violence. Wherefore, seek some soft and yielding object to pierce with your darts.
-Seneca
God forbid a SEE be married or seriously dating a depressed person. The way they just lose it would easily tip a person like that to kill themselves. Horrible thought. My SEE is being dumb right now. Tipping point seemed to be a finger of bourbon then my son cutting steak "wrong" and SEE insisting his way was right. He does continental style and refuses to see American style as real. It's total bullshite. Whatever. Get over it already.
I eat Continental style, but it’s because I’m left handed and it’s more efficient for me.
On the other hand, constant criticism is not a winning strategy.
I'm not lefty but in some things I seem to sort of be, eating though, American Style is right for me, I need to eat slower, ILI savor what I can, and appreciate the food, and it's also just the way everyone around me ate until I met my SEE, who is a first gen American. His parents came over from The Netherlands, and the GR Mi area is ripe with them ... he came from there, so of course he was taught Continental, but at least I KNEW about Continental and American whereas he seems biased in only knowing Continental.
Sometimes he looks at my way and says it might help him eat less if he ate that way. I agree, then he forgets we ever spoke about it. --- and our ILE kid just sets him off ... over and over and over and it's now meaning I'll have to tutor ILE on better sawing meat etiquette at the table. He just turned 14 last year, and honestly prefers to use a spoon for most eating LOL
I don't put such etiquette things as a need at home, we are as casual as casual as casual as casual as gamma table could be for everyday kinds of family meals.
HOLIDAY is different.
So as it goes, high dungeon all last night, and today SEE is totally back to normal. UGH>I live with it.
As for Serious, yes, he's a serious SEE most of the time, but a total jack-in-the-box laughing boisterous guy when it suits him. When he was younger probably more happy go lucky-ish, and eventually family pulled the serious more to the front. He always, since I knew him knew how to look Mr. Business, steady, serious, businessman.
The terms "serious" and "merry" are no longer used by any socionics school I know of. Even WSS with its "classical socionics" uses "clarity seeking" vs "integrity seeking" instead, which are not bad terms if you understand what concepts they refer to. SHS uses "passionary" or "ascending" to describe alpha and beta and "descending" to describe gamma and delta, which again, make more sense if you understand what they mean.
This article explains what the terms mean from a SHS viewpoint: https://socioniks.net/consultation/?id=341
Basically ascending quadras are motivated by passion when it comes to their goals. Descending less by personal passion and more by the pragmatic outcome. Gulenko says it can be hard to tell what category you actually fall into because so much of it can be warped by social influences it can be misleading in diagnostics.
"Merry" vs "serious" doesn't mean much anyways because you have gamma and delta types that joke around alot and alpha and beta types who come across as serious people.
Local brianlet Number9Large once argued that he couldn't be SEE because he isn't "serious". Lol.
TLDR: not only are the terms merry and serious bad to describe quadras, the dichotomy is not useful even if you use better terms.
Thanks, this makes sense. ILEs may not see SLEs as "merry" people. Though I think the term ascending/descending can be also misleading. I know a lot of gamma/beta historical figures devoting their lives out of passion instead of pragmatic goals. The dichotomies have inherent alpha quadra bias, but some of them are very perceptive in describing type difference.
Yeah, I agree the terms ascending and descending could be misleading as well. Especially if people do not understand the concepts they point to. Gamma and delta types may of course have ideals, but the motive of their actions is the pragmatic outcome (which could be helping people) and not simply being lead by passion. Alpha and beta types differ from that, they are lead either by sincere curiosity or abstract ideals (doesn't have to be something political religious, it could be charity work or a cultural movement) and the outcome is not calculated.
From the article I linked:
At least, that is my understanding.When it comes to the pragmatic aspect in business logic, what will I get from this, what technology, where to implement, will it pay off? All these business aspects already concern the third and fourth quadra. There is no longer idealism, no passionarity. Passionarity according to Gumilyov (author of the theory of passionarity). He believed that passionaries are people who are able to sacrifice their strength, time, and sometimes life, for the sake of a distant goal that will not bring them anything material. It is in this rhythm, according to Gumilyov, that only the first or second quadra can be passionaries. The ability to do something without having anything for it.
But again, I wouldn't really use this dichotomy in diagnostics. Nowadays nearly everyone does things out of pragmatism (or thinks they do) due to the way our society works and the ideal it projects, the nurture factor may take over the nature factor, when it comes to a person's perception of themselves and this dichotomy, which can lead to misdiagnosis imo.
Interesting. Could it be cultural difference?
Russian idealism: Orthodox/Christianity thought system, mostly FeTi
Chinese idealism: Confucius thought system, mostly FiTe.
A story about passion in Chinese history:
A scholar (likely ILI) wrote to the emperor, saying his new policy (giving his other sons military power in their own lands) would cause war and carnage in the country. Knowing how cruel and stubborn the emperor is, he told family and students to prepare for his funeral. He was arrested and died in prison. And the emperor's other son did start a war and killed the rightful heir.
Was he dying for pragmatism or idealism?
If wanting a country to have peace and preventing war is considered pragmatic and tangible result, what would be considered idealistic and intangible? (While I can sense the difference they are talking about, better wording may be used to cause less misunderstanding)
A few points here.
Confucius (the man) was EIE according to SHS.
In the story you mention the scholar in question was dying for idealism as per the definitions I gave, not pragmatism, I would say. Pragmatism has a more immediate effect, in gamma it is more selfish. Gammas can be genuinely kind people but they are always more oriented towards benefit for themselves and their close ones rather than dying for ideals of peace for their country(regardless of how pragmatic such peace for a country is for their relatives, it is still more a Ti thing as per the defintions I gave, I think).
It's difficult to determine types of people in stories such as this one since their elements are often semi-mythological and thus historical accuracy falls apart.
Also, I mean you no offense when I say this, but typing accuracy among hobbyists is extremely low. Even if the historical elements in the story are accurate, the scholar you mention may have been something other than ILI. I don't mean to sound dismissive of your views or input, but this needs to be said: there are no universally correct typings, there are only different diagnostic methods.
Ultimately, Confucian philosophy isn't something I know alot about, so I can't comment much really, it's possible others have built upon Confucius' philosophy and made it more Te even if Confucius himself was beta. I don't know.
But all that being said, I agree with your main point (if I have understood you correctly). This dichotomy is very easy to misappy because of cultural factors. For example our society being more Te valuing and so many thinking of themselves (and others) as pragmatic actors. Which is my whole point: don't use this Reinin dichotomy in diagnostics.
Last edited by WVBRY; 02-19-2022 at 07:24 AM.
I only know of one SEE, and I strongly dislike them because I think they're a terrible influence on their ILI partner who doesn't realize they're being influenced. (Well, that relationship is on the path to failure anyway, so whatever. It's only a matter of time.) So, I wouldn't know.
You need to arm that ILI with Socionics info!
I don't think it'd help, tbh.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. No-one is absolutely sure of what people will do when provided the right information, so the ILI may surprise you for the better. Either way, it's easily showed to the ILI and costs you nothing, while the potential benefit is the two becoming healthy and happy. ILIs always love obtaining more data, in my experience.
@Uncle Ave, would this mean that you would be willing to take up arms for your country? I recently had this discussion with a fellow student from my master class, namely, due to the imminent Ukranian-Russian war in which Europe is involved by proximity. Both of us agreed that we didn't feel enough for our country to actually put our lives at stake for it. I even specified that I would be willing to defend my friends and family, but as long as we can all get out unscathed, this would be much preferred.
That's too bad. Motivation reasoning for aiding an ILI is precious knowledge.
Influence of SEE is nye impossible to resist without hurting oneself at times, and knowing what's going on and being able to resist... decent knowledge is so important.
SEE can drag an ILI to where ILI doesn't want to go, with no major complaining. I learned to resist when it's detrimental to me. Thank God! Glory to Him the Highest! <--socionics made this work, with His help.
The ILI would only think I was being manipulative if I tried to show them. Too defensive and untrusting...just like the SEE. I prefer to just keep my distance and not try to form any sort of connection, which would be required for showing this. I already experienced some backlash about something else, so I'm like...ok, welp, have fun, it's not my problem.
Well, to answer from a personal standpoint, I wouldn't take up arms to intervene in the Ukraine-Russia conflict. I would only take up arms if my own country is being attacked directly (and not just its allies). This conflict is especially stupid since Putin has been clear with NATO leaders about what his interests are (and his demands are understandable I think), and yet it seems they don't listen to him in that sense, so if we go to war, I kind of sense our own politicians have some part of responsibility in causing the conflict. I am obviously not claiming Putin is a good man or anything like that, but his demand that Ukraine never adhere to NATO is understandable from the standpoint of Russian interests even if the "never" part is a bit extreme of a demand.
I'm not sure what that means type-wise.
And they wouldn't be wrong.
Not that the intent would be malicious but it's up to each person to form their own opinions of others, I've had a "friend" try to influence me into disliking other people, and needless to say she isn't my friend anymore.
Well then, don't give them anything but nudging from a socionics perspective without any socionics/personality-typing-speak ... when opportunity arrives.
Yet, this is what the SEE did with me - that is why I experienced backlash with something else. They influenced the ILI to dislike me.
But trying to open someone's eyes to something harming them and/or threatening your relationship with them isn't the same as trying to make them dislike the person. It's also not manipulative. That is too defensive, smh.
EDIT:
Jesus, is this kind of autonomy insecurity overcompensation an ILI thing?
"Hey, you're being influenced by this person, look at x, y, z."
Or, in the case that happened,
"Dude, this person is gaslighting me, do you think they are abusive? Yes? Shit...fuck them, then."
"UUU CAN'T MAKE ME DISLIKE THEM, UR NOT MY FRIEND NOW!"
......seriously? Lol alright, be oblivious and suffer for it, then.
Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 02-19-2022 at 01:35 PM.
Banning Ukraine from ever joining both the North Atlantic Treaty Organization ( NATO ), as well as European Union ( NATO ) is already a sheer violation of any country's sovereignty. In addition to this, the Kremlin published the official peace treaty negotiation documents as a sign of "transparency", even though the negotiations were still ongoing. Moreover, this publication hadn't even been cleared by their negotiation partners, which doesn't establish trust. In these documents the Kremlin states its demands for peace, amongst others no Ukranian membership of the NATO and EU, but also the demand that neither Sweden, nor Finland ever join the NATO. He demands this regardless of both countries clearly being European. Even more, he demands the borders to revert back to the period before the 1990s. This means returning to the post-Cold War era by forcing Romania, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, Slovakia, and even Czechia out of the NATO, in spite of them being long established members! We cannot possibly agree to such demands, because it would hand the entirety of Eastern-Europe to Putin on a silver platter!
Putin's demands are completely unreasonable, and he knows it. However, he combines the current negotiations with his progaganda apparatjiks to present his agenda as a genuine attempt at negotiation. Similar as what happened when the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty had to be renewed, he presents himself as the victim of American dishonesty in the negotiations, in order to justify war. Reaching a diplomatic solution is essentially of the table by now, due to the build-up of over 100.000 troops in Belarusia nearby the border with the Ukranian capital city, and in the Ukranian territories annexed by Russia are unmistakable evidence of war preparations. The Kremlin's claim that this is merely a large scale military training doesn't hold, because the training was scheduled to end last year April already. Instead of ending the "training" the military equipment was purposefully left there and guarded, in order to quickly mobilize the troops to reinforce these strategic positions.
Similarly, Moscow's recent retraction of troops is in reality a dangerous shell game, because we observed through satellite recordings that platoon A is actually moving to location b and platoon B to location a. It is a tactical illusion that he upheld, because on that very day the USA's intelligence had predicted Russia to invade Ukraine. Due to this twist Putin could claim instead pure innocence, as he was "retreating" his troops. Yet on the same day that he disseminated this disinformation, Russian troops started shelling Ukranian territory with artillery, in order to force a military response from them. This is both used to provoke a justification to start the war, as well as to see how far they can go before military retaliation.
I predict that the Ukranian war will begin after the Winter Olympics have ended and before the end of March. Putin has namely made an important gas and oil trade deal with Xi Jinping at the Winter Olympics. I expect Xi Jinping to have insisted on Putin invading Ukraine only after Xi's Olympics have ended. He namely wouldn't want the Olympics he organizes to be overshadowed by Putin's invasion, or at least not to a greater degree than already is happening.
On the other hand, Putin has to invade Ukraine before the end of March, because currently the ground is still frozen and therefore hard enough for tanks to drive over. Would he begin his war any later, then the ground would already have begun to thaw.❄️
I do agree with you that it makes sense from the perspective of the Kremlin, because they still think in spheres of influence and buffer states. If Ukraine joins the NATO or EU, then the West suddenly becomes adjacent to Russia without any barriers in between. The fall of the Soviet Union is also Putin's personal trauma. Putin was in his late twenties when he was in East-Berlin for the KGB to burn their secret documents. When the Berlin Wall fell, he heard the people approach. They chanted: "Wir sind das Volk! Wir sind das Volk!" With every iteration the emphasis on Volk! grew ever louder, while at that moment the young Putin saw his whole world, the Soviet Union, collapse.
By the way, cool new profile picture that you have chosen, @Uncle Ave!
Last edited by Armitage; 02-19-2022 at 01:52 PM.
And yet, this ILI "friend" chose to go along with it. People know what they are doing, it isn't because someone has weak ethics in socionics that they suddenly lose their free will when it comes to interpersonal relationships.
And this isn't type related, either. It's person related.
It's forcing them to take a position so of course it's controlling and manipulative. Not sure what definitions you use to define those terms.But trying to open someone's eyes to something harming them and/or threatening your relationship with them isn't the same as trying to make them dislike the person. It's also not manipulative. That is too defensive, smh.
EDIT:
Jesus, is this kind of autonomy insecurity overcompensation an ILI thing?
"Hey, you're being influenced by this person, look at x, y, z."
"UUU CAN'T MAKE ME DISLIKE THEM, UR NOT MY FRIEND NOW!"
Also I'm not sure if you're referring to me, but I'm not ILI.
That's right, let them suffer for it. It's patronizing to act like you know better than others when it comes to their choice of friends.......seriously? Lol alright, be oblivious and suffer for it, then.
Note to self: never try to help ILIs. They're too insecure. Or maybe it's 5s, idk. Lol.
Respect my autonomy!
You mean the autonomy you actually have MORE of when you see the full scope of what's going on? Idiot.
The autonomy that should enable you to simply say "I see where you're coming from, but I disagree or choose X different thing" to which I say "ok, well, that's your choice" and go on my way...?
Maybe they feel insecure about being "incompetent" by not knowing it all on their own already.
Thanks man.@Uncle Ave, banning Ukraine from ever joining both the NATO, as well as European Union is already a sheer violation of any country's sovereignty. But in addition to this, the Kremlin published the official peace treaty negotiation documents as a sign of "transparency", even though the negotiations were still ongoing. Moreover, this publication hadn't even been cleared by their negotiation partners, which doesn't establish trust. In these documents the Kremlin states its demands for peace, amongst others no Ukranian membership of the NATO and EU, but also the demand that neither Sweden, nor Finland ever join the NATO. He demands this despite both countries clearly being European. Even more, he demands the borders to revert back to the period before the 1990s. This means returning to the post-Cold War era by forcing Romania, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, Slovakia, and even Czechia out of the North-Atlantic Treaty Organization, even though they are long established members! We cannot possibly agree to such demands, because it would hand the entirety of Eastern-Europe to Putin on a silver platter!
Putin's demands are completely unreasonable, and he knows it. However, he combines the current negotiations with his progaganda apparatjiks to present his agenda as a genuine attempt at negotiation. Similar as what happened when the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty had to be renewed, he presents himself as the victim of American dishonesty in the negotiations, in order to justify war. Reaching a diplomatic solution is essentially of the table by now, due to the build-up of over 100.000 troops in Belarusia nearby the border with the Ukranian capital city, and in the Ukranian territories annexed by Russia are unmistakable evidence of war preparations. The Kremlin's claim that this is merely a large scale military training doesn't hold, because the training was scheduled to end last year April already. Instead of ending the "training" the military equipment was purposefully left there and guarded, in order to quickly mobilize the troops to reinforce these strategic positions.
Similarly, Moscow's recent retraction of troops is in reality a dangerous shell game, because we observed through satellite recordings that platoon A is actually moving to location b and platoon B to location a. It is a tactical illusion that he upheld, because on that very day the USA's intelligence had predicted Russia to invade Ukraine. Due to this twist Putin could claim instead pure innocence, as he was "retreating" his troops. Yet on the same day that he disseminated this disinformation, Russian troops started shelling Ukranian territory with artillery, in order to force a military response from them. This is both used to provoke a justification to start the war, as well as to see how far they can go before military retaliation.
I predict that the Ukranian war will begin after the Winter Olympics have ended and before the end of March. Putin has namely made an important gas and oil trade deal with Xi Jinping at the Winter Olympics. I expect Xi Jinping to have insisted on Putin invading Ukraine only after Xi's Olympics have ended. He namely wouldn't want the Olympics he organizes to be overshadowed by Putin's invasion, or at least not to a greater degree than already is happening.
On the other hand, Putin has to invade Ukraine before the end of March, because currently the ground is still frozen and therefore hard enough for tanks to drive over. Would he begin his war any later, then the ground would already have begun to thaw.❄️
By the way, cool new profile picture that you have chosen!
I agree with you that banning a country from entering NATO is a violation of that country's sovereignty, actually. You are right.
I don't have anything to add as you seem well-read on the subject, whereas I haven't following in great detail, so I'm not gonna attempt to contradict what you said. If I have more to add later, I may mention you in the "Ukraine" thread.
What makes you think they need your help? And because they can make their own decisions, they are insecure?
What crass arrogance.
Respect my autonomy!
You mean the autonomy you actually have MORE of when you see the full scope of what's going on? Idiot.
The autonomy that should enable you to simply say "I see where you're coming from, but I disagree or choose X different thing" to which I say "ok, well, that's your choice" and go on my way...?
Maybe they feel insecure about being "incompetent" by not knowing it all on their own already.
What makes me think they need help? Everyone needs help. It's human. Some are just too insecure about it to accept that fact.
"Dont inform me, I know it all on my own! Informing me of your views is manipulation!"
Yeah, ok.
Mirror, mirror.
Yeah they actually said that to her. True story.
I actually like doing this also, but always as it relates to people/relationships. I'm clueless when it comes to other things.
Nah, I'm just rephrasing things in a way that explains the underlying dynamics taking place. It's basically what Uncle Ave is saying.
This is sad, if you think you can straw man your way out of this.
I suppose it's your problem.
I'll leave this discussion now, I feel like I'm beating up a baby.
"No, u"
Wow. What a great point. So insightful and factual. So glad you took the time to form an actual argument with concrete points. This has forever changed my life. *Tear*
In principle I agree with you on this. What I understand from @Lady Lunacik, though, is that this was a very special situation. Lady Lunacik was friends with the ILI, who then started dating a SEE. This SEE harboured a dislike, possibly even jealousy, against Lady Lunacik. Out of this animosity the SEE turned her boyfriend away from Lady Lunacik. This would mean that the SEE initiated the manipulation.
Lady Lunacik then reacted to this by explaining to her ILI friend how the the SEE he was dating was manipulating him. To me this doesn't sound like Lady Lunacik was manipulating her ILI friend, instead she was exposing the SEE's envy and intrigue to the ILI. If someone was intentionally slandering my good name and setting up my friends against me, then I would deem exposing their ploy to be justified self-defence from my end.
It's not because they can make their own decisions. I have no interest in making others' decisions for them. I do not believe in people needing to not be friends with my enemies, either. I don't stand for that either being done to me, nor from me.
What's insecure is seeing mere warnings or informing as control or manipulation. In reality, what you do with the information is up to you. I won't apologize for caring about someone enough to voice my views (that they may potentially be harmed).
Oh I have nothing against self-defense.
But in this case, trying to "inform" the ILI that the SEE he is dating is manipulative isn't any less manipulative, especially if 1) it implies that the ILI will have to ultimately "choose" between Lady Lunacik and the SEE, which, when you think about it, he will have to do at some point. 2) It is using the ILI as a way to enact revenge/self-defense against the SEE.
So the term "inform" isn't right to use here, it's an opinion, not information, and thus it's hardly something that helps the ILI see the full picture, it could just as easily twist the picture he has of the situation for the reasons I mentioned.
If you want to get someone back for something they did to you, you egg their car or something. That said, I don't think the ILI is any less guilty. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise.
I've been in many such situations and it's quiet a horrible spot to be in, to be honest I would feel more sympathy for Lady Lunacik if she wasn't calling me names like idiot and becoming aggressive.
It's not information, though. It's your own take on a situation and from what I can tell, it is a pretty self-interested one.
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