Results 1 to 34 of 34

Thread: Weak Se in the military?

  1. #1
    DeliMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    TIM
    IEI-N
    Posts
    235
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Weak Se in the military?

    I am curious how weak Se types usually fare in the military (especially the ethicals).

    Which roles are they suited for?
    Which roles are they not suited for?
    What kind of variance do they bring?
    What kind of value do they bring?

    I am mostly interested in hearing actual examples if you can provide any.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    💩 Nobody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    TIM
    POOP™
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is pretty much the US Army...
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





  3. #3
    Rebelondeck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    1,658
    Mentioned
    139 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    IEIs usually can't tolerate being yelled at or demeaned in any way so military life in the lower ranks may not suit them. ILIs are often rather non-compliant with and critical of institutions, something to which the military wouldn't take kindly. I haven't met any of these two types in the military but I'm quite sure that many make it through basic training; they can be rather good at rising to challenges and passing tests, but few will likely put up with the life for very long. However, both types seem to do very well in busy jobs where everything is near the brink of chaos even though they don't seem to manage personal assaults very well.

    a.k.a. I/O

  4. #4
    Moharu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    TIM
    ILI? - Ne?
    Posts
    180
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't like military, but mostly because of Fe polr, not Se. Too many people, not fun. I enjoy Se activities, very much, and I love when I have someone force me to do some Se activities, becasue I'm too lazy to do it myself.

  5. #5
    scientist donkey BrightDemonSheep96's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    On a toilet, right above you
    TIM
    ILE-H LEVF/omnibeta
    Posts
    6,344
    Mentioned
    267 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I have been in compulsory service. Trick is to fail at tests consistently while looking like you do the best. You may get lots of hate but it is worth to pay if your "compulsory sentence" at military is shorter when you under perform.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

    Your life is too short to actually do anything useful with it without being wasteful.

  6. #6
    shitposter extraordinaire
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    USA
    TIM
    ESI-Fi 6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    200
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    IEIs usually can't tolerate being yelled at or demeaned in any way so military life in the lower ranks may not suit them. ILIs are often rather non-compliant with and critical of institutions, something to which the military wouldn't take kindly. I haven't met any of these two types in the military but I'm quite sure that many make it through basic training; they can be rather good at rising to challenges and passing tests, but few will likely put up with the life for very long. However, both types seem to do very well in busy jobs where everything is near the brink of chaos even though they don't seem to manage personal assaults very well.

    a.k.a. I/O
    I knew of an IEI who served and an ILI who wanted to be a medic.

    I wonder how would EIIs fare.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    12,775
    Mentioned
    1178 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Weak S makes harder to study and control your body in physical activity. Not all occupations have strong requirements for this. Also N types have better "feeling" where an activity to use with better result, what compensates partly. With weapons development a need in physical efforts becomes lesser and lesser.
    N types are predisposed to make better decisions, which take into account more factors. They evaluate situations quicker. So they are easier to become good officiers. While S types are some better where direct physical efforts are needed what is more common for lower ranks and lesser advanced weapons.

    Ne types have the most aversion to a violence. To direct and near violence. They'll shoot in you by a rocket without problems. Also they least like direct enforcing what is common in army, but more for lower ranks where S types fit better anyway.

    Ne types issues could be serious problem in manual weapons of the past. Since fire weapons age, except sniping, this should not be. In today times stay as a problem physical harm, hunger, cold, fatigue, etc. problems of wars, what Ne types accept harder. To be in low ranks is hard for them. To be officers - ok.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  8. #8
    idiot sandwich aixelsyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    622
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't like to strain myself physically (but I'll do it when trying to get something done). So that part of the military didn't appeal.
    Being yelled at is whatever. It's just the physical discomfort for the sake of it that I don't like but it's also for a good reason.
    I think any type can be successful in the military though as long as they are physically strong and have good endurance and have good mental health. If someone is not well physically and/or mentally, then it is very difficult and such a person would likely have to lie in MEPS to get in and even then, it will be hard.

  9. #9
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    10,176
    Mentioned
    1077 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Okay View Post
    I knew of an IEI who served and an ILI who wanted to be a medic.

    I wonder how would EIIs fare.
    Chaplains.

  10. #10
    Alomoes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    TIM
    ILI INTp
    Posts
    712
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Two words. Air Force.

    No joke, my step cousin claims ENFp, and is like bro, I wanna be a famous general. I'm like, good luck with that. Gave me a loaded two question quiz on Waterloo. I told him my position, and that was it, loss. No battle, just instant loss.

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    1,263
    Mentioned
    32 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    This is pretty much the US Army...
    Not a single Te type in this video, besides maybe the black guy.

    You don't need to have good logics of actions (Te) to be a soldier in the army. Probably lots of sensing types though in general. You need to be able to follow and give orders, but actual logic of actions is not required, even to excel. Although, people like Jocko Willink (LSE), do become officers. Essentially all thes tic too guys are some variations of betas, including what appeared to be a IEI -> The guy who "hates myself."

    In militaries outside of the United States, only University graduates may become commissioned Officers of forces. Canadian Forces for example, you must hold a degree to be hired and hold a Commission. Basically they don't want retards in top leader roles and the Uni degree is the line in the sand. Something about what happened in Somalia in the early 1990s. Shrug. You may rise high on merit alone, but eventually you will need to get a degree in some study, which the Forces will pay for if you've put in time and rank.

    edited for personal information.
    Last edited by timber; 04-03-2021 at 06:16 PM.

  12. #12
    💩 Nobody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    TIM
    POOP™
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Not a single Te type in this video, besides maybe the black guy.

    You don't need to have good logics of actions (Te) to be a soldier in the army. Probably lots of sensing types though in general. You need to be able to follow and give orders, but actual logic of actions is not required, even to excel. Although, people like Jocko Willink (LSE), do become officers. Essentially all thes tic too guys are some variations of betas, including what appeared to be a IEI -> The guy who "hates myself."

    In militaries outside of the United States, only University graduates may become commissioned Officers of forces. Canadian Forces for example, you must hold a degree to be hired and hold a Commission. Basically they don't want retards in top leader roles and the Uni degree is the line in the sand. Something about what happened in Somalia in the early 1990s. Shrug. You may rise high on merit alone, but eventually you will need to get a degree in some study, which the Forces will pay for if you've put in time and rank.

    edited for personal information.
    Well, I was in the US Army, and most of the officers were pretty stupid. There were quite a few with Liberal Arts, political science, and business degrees and very few with engineering degrees or anything technical. In fact I remember reading about one of our Generals had a PHD in some psychology thing, a master's degree in military history, and a degree in "business" and I'm thinking "This dude sounds not very bright". But these are the kinds of people that excel and I don't blame people for taking easy degree routes when all they care is that you have a "degree", not what it is.

    As far as your socionics generalizations, I'm just going to say (based on experience) there are all types of people in the military (myself included) and your generalizations are pretty silly and why I find it hard to take you guys seriously on socionics on here. I mean really, the black guy seemed to have some kind of attitude, and he's the only Te valuer? The one guy hates himself, so IEI? How profound...unless you're joking/trolling, then hah, I laughed, funny.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





  13. #13
    Alomoes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    TIM
    ILI INTp
    Posts
    712
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If you join the army, you are stupid. That's the joke, I think. I couldn't say to anything from that video other than there's a ton of people who all agree that the army sucks.

    I'd love to join the NSA or CIA, but I don't have a degree.

  14. #14
    DeliMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    TIM
    IEI-N
    Posts
    235
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    As far as your socionics generalizations, I'm just going to say (based on experience) there are all types of people in the military (myself included) and your generalizations are pretty silly and why I find it hard to take you guys seriously on socionics on here. I mean really, the black guy seemed to have some kind of attitude, and he's the only Te valuer? The one guy hates himself, so IEI? How profound...unless you're joking/trolling, then hah, I laughed, funny.
    I think @timber was mostly taking a stab at VI, but not sure. In the quick snippet from the video I would say the black guy’s mannerisms are consistent with some Te-doms I know, but I wouldn’t necessarily say he has an “attitude”.

  15. #15
    RBRS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    123
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    Well, I was in the US Army, and most of the officers were pretty stupid. There were quite a few with Liberal Arts, political science, and business degrees and very few with engineering degrees or anything technical. In fact I remember reading about one of our Generals had a PHD in some psychology thing, a master's degree in military history, and a degree in "business" and I'm thinking "This dude sounds not very bright". But these are the kinds of people that excel and I don't blame people for taking easy degree routes when all they care is that you have a "degree", not what it is.

    As far as your socionics generalizations, I'm just going to say (based on experience) there are all types of people in the military (myself included) and your generalizations are pretty silly and why I find it hard to take you guys seriously on socionics on here. I mean really, the black guy seemed to have some kind of attitude, and he's the only Te valuer? The one guy hates himself, so IEI? How profound...unless you're joking/trolling, then hah, I laughed, funny.
    -Well, I was in the US Army, and most of the officers were pretty stupid. There were quite a few with Liberal Arts, political science, and business degrees and very few with engineering degrees or anything technical. In fact I remember reading about one of our Generals had a PHD in some psychology thing, a master's degree in military history, and a degree in "business" and I'm thinking "This dude sounds not very bright".

    The average IQ composites for political science graduates in the US is 120, which might indicate that in average a political sciences graduate might range from 110 to 130 in IQ, which is not a dumb person. Psychology is lower with 113, which might mean that the average psychology graduate has an IQ ranging from 100 to 120 maybe. The second best part goes for philosophy students, 129 average composite that stands in superiority to all technical and engineering degrees and is only surpassed by mathematics, physics and astronomy. Technical doesn't mean smarter (although it might mean far more useful) I would suggest judging by deeds and not by papers, no offence intended.

    With the second paragraph I completely agree

    Edited bc I forgot to add the source

    http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/2...-gender-ratio/

    Also the US spends 1'92 trillion USD in military spending then recruits the video's candidates for it's army, looks like some sort of welfare but disguised as defense. Solution for the underprepared military officials might be a military university degree, necessary for everyone inside the ranks to get into higher positions (Which is actually how it works in my country).
    Last edited by RBRS; 04-04-2021 at 11:16 PM.

  16. #16
    💩 Nobody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    TIM
    POOP™
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    -Well, I was in the US Army, and most of the officers were pretty stupid. There were quite a few with Liberal Arts, political science, and business degrees and very few with engineering degrees or anything technical. In fact I remember reading about one of our Generals had a PHD in some psychology thing, a master's degree in military history, and a degree in "business" and I'm thinking "This dude sounds not very bright".

    The average IQ composites for political science graduates in the US is 120, which might indicate that in average a political sciences graduate might range from 110 to 130 in IQ, which is not a dumb person. Psychology is lower with 113, which might mean that the average psychology graduate has an IQ ranging from 100 to 120 maybe. The second best part goes for philosophy students, 129 average composite that stands in superiority to all technical and engineering degrees and is only surpassed by mathematics, physics and astronomy. Technical doesn't mean smarter (although it might mean far more useful) I would suggest judging by deeds and not by papers, no offence intended.

    With the second paragraph I completely agree

    Edited bc I forgot to add the source

    http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/2...-gender-ratio/

    Also the US spends 1'92 trillion USD in military spending then recruits the video's candidates for it's army, looks like some sort of welfare but disguised as defense. Solution for the underprepared military officials might be a military university degree, necessary for everyone inside the ranks to get into higher positions (Which is actually how it works in my country).
    Uh no, engineering and technical degrees have more intensive studies and are going to be harder and more complicated than a psych degree or political science degree. And the military values GPA over what degree you got; so somebody that got a 3.0 gpa in an engineering field will be disqualified for certain officer applications versus someone that got 4.0 GPA business degree or liberal arts degree just based on a GPA requirement, despite that both degrees are vastly different. That says to me that those officers chose something not too hard and that will let them tick off their box of "requirements" and getting the right GPAs. Maybe "not bright" wasn't the best thing for me to say, but these are people playing into the system and will not put too much thought into things; they are not out of the box thinkers that are willing to go deep into things, questions things when necessary, or people that will try and see through the veil. They are fitting into parameters as best they can and those aren't people you want as officers, but those are the majority of promotions - https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2017/0...rship-problem/

    The Revolving Door
    Why do senior Pentagon leaders demonstrate such poor leadership? The culture of the senior ranks certainly plays a big part. National security journalist Thomas Ricks wrote about this in his book, The Generals. He described how most senior officers today aspire to be viewed as “good guys.” Andrew Bacevich, a retired Army colonel and historian, described the type this way:
    “The good guy projects the right attitude, strikes the right pose, and recites all the right clichés. Good guys are team players. They don’t rock the boat. They get ahead by going along. In practical terms, demonstrated adherence to orthodoxy becomes the premier qualification for admission. Heretics need not apply.”
    Perhaps the fastest way for an officer to be ostracized from this exclusive fraternity is to do anything to interrupt the smooth transfer of taxpayer dollars from the Treasury through the Pentagon into the coffers of a defense contractor—say by raising questions about the need for or the efficacy of a Service’s new pet weapons program. An officer doing so would doubtlessly offend his team-playing superiors within the Service, risking promotions and desirable assignments. An officer who did so would also find few defense contractors willing to offer lucrative sinecures upon his or her retirement. Air Force Colonel Jim Burton, of Pentagon Wars fame, is the most famous example of what happens to an officer who violates the code of silence.
    And you don't have to believe me, but I was in the Army and this is exactly the kind of shit that happens. I wasn't a good fit because I always spoke my mind and always got shit for it. If some Colonel is going to ask me how I like the unit and it's utter shit, he's going to hear it, whether my commander likes it or not. They sap all creativity and any kind of critical thinking out of everything, until you either just accept it and see it all as a sad joke or get out and move on with your life. I probably should have joined the Air Force, but from what I've heard from people that were in the Air Force, it has similar problems.

    And, lol, IQ is a rather sketchy metric for measuring intelligence. It's not only statistically skewed to match sample groups, where 100 IQ in 1900 does not mean the same thing as 100 IQ in 2020, but there is no universal IQ test and people bicker and argue over the validity of what an IQ test is supposed to measure and whether or not someone should or can improve on them from studying. It just really doesn't mean much. But whatever fine, I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





  17. #17
    scientist donkey BrightDemonSheep96's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    On a toilet, right above you
    TIM
    ILE-H LEVF/omnibeta
    Posts
    6,344
    Mentioned
    267 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well, you need to prove your competence in so called exacting fields during studies (lowest level aka polytechnic entrance examinations look like a joke). Over here vast majority of starters quit but then that is also about choice what you see yourself doing in the future... for example while law seems easy I just can not focus in it since it is not rewarding.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

    Your life is too short to actually do anything useful with it without being wasteful.

  18. #18
    scientist donkey BrightDemonSheep96's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    On a toilet, right above you
    TIM
    ILE-H LEVF/omnibeta
    Posts
    6,344
    Mentioned
    267 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    And the military values GPA over what degree you got; so somebody that got a 3.0 gpa in an engineering field will be disqualified for certain officer applications versus someone that got 4.0 GPA business degree or liberal arts degree just based on a GPA requirement, despite that both degrees are vastly different. That says to me that those officers chose something not too hard and that will let them tick off their box of "requirements" and getting the right GPAs. Maybe "not bright" wasn't the best thing for me to say, but these are people playing into the system and will not put too much thought into things; they are not out of the box thinkers that are willing to go deep into things, questions things when necessary, or people that will try and see through the veil. They are fitting into parameters as best they can and those aren't people you want as officers, but those are the majority of promotions - https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2017/0...rship-problem/
    Yup it would be foolish not to favour people who do not trust the system. It actually seems quite genius system in its simplicity. So, trusting that some gems still choose it still generates a hierarchy of right kind of "north koreanized" people.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

    Your life is too short to actually do anything useful with it without being wasteful.

  19. #19
    RBRS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    123
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    Uh no, engineering and technical degrees have more intensive studies and are going to be harder and more complicated than a psych degree or political science degree. And the military values GPA over what degree you got; so somebody that got a 3.0 gpa in an engineering field will be disqualified for certain officer applications versus someone that got 4.0 GPA business degree or liberal arts degree just based on a GPA requirement, despite that both degrees are vastly different. That says to me that those officers chose something not too hard and that will let them tick off their box of "requirements" and getting the right GPAs. Maybe "not bright" wasn't the best thing for me to say, but these are people playing into the system and will not put too much thought into things; they are not out of the box thinkers that are willing to go deep into things, questions things when necessary, or people that will try and see through the veil. They are fitting into parameters as best they can and those aren't people you want as officers, but those are the majority of promotions - https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2017/0...rship-problem/

    The Revolving Door
    Why do senior Pentagon leaders demonstrate such poor leadership? The culture of the senior ranks certainly plays a big part. National security journalist Thomas Ricks wrote about this in his book, The Generals. He described how most senior officers today aspire to be viewed as “good guys.” Andrew Bacevich, a retired Army colonel and historian, described the type this way:
    “The good guy projects the right attitude, strikes the right pose, and recites all the right clichés. Good guys are team players. They don’t rock the boat. They get ahead by going along. In practical terms, demonstrated adherence to orthodoxy becomes the premier qualification for admission. Heretics need not apply.”
    Perhaps the fastest way for an officer to be ostracized from this exclusive fraternity is to do anything to interrupt the smooth transfer of taxpayer dollars from the Treasury through the Pentagon into the coffers of a defense contractor—say by raising questions about the need for or the efficacy of a Service’s new pet weapons program. An officer doing so would doubtlessly offend his team-playing superiors within the Service, risking promotions and desirable assignments. An officer who did so would also find few defense contractors willing to offer lucrative sinecures upon his or her retirement. Air Force Colonel Jim Burton, of Pentagon Wars fame, is the most famous example of what happens to an officer who violates the code of silence.
    And you don't have to believe me, but I was in the Army and this is exactly the kind of shit that happens. I wasn't a good fit because I always spoke my mind and always got shit for it. If some Colonel is going to ask me how I like the unit and it's utter shit, he's going to hear it, whether my commander likes it or not. They sap all creativity and any kind of critical thinking out of everything, until you either just accept it and see it all as a sad joke or get out and move on with your life. I probably should have joined the Air Force, but from what I've heard from people that were in the Air Force, it has similar problems.

    And, lol, IQ is a rather sketchy metric for measuring intelligence. It's not only statistically skewed to match sample groups, where 100 IQ in 1900 does not mean the same thing as 100 IQ in 2020, but there is no universal IQ test and people bicker and argue over the validity of what an IQ test is supposed to measure and whether or not someone should or can improve on them from studying. It just really doesn't mean much. But whatever fine, I guess.
    -Uh no, engineering and technical degrees have more intensive studies and are going to be harder and more complicated than a psych degree or political science degree.

    I never said the opposite, but reffered to a study on the average IQ per major in the US.

    -And, lol, IQ is a rather sketchy metric for measuring intelligence. It's not only statistically skewed to match sample groups, where 100 IQ in 1900 does not mean the same thing as 100 IQ in 2020, but there is no universal IQ test and people bicker and argue over the validity of what an IQ test is supposed to measure and whether or not someone should or can improve on them from studying. It just really doesn't mean much. But whatever fine, I guess.

    Generally a typical IQ test measures logical-mathematical inteligence, spatial inteligence, memory performance, etc. Differences on numbers might be due to more sophisticated methods of measure. Training for IQ tests might create a superior result on a general difference of 10 points from the original result, and with being technical careers more intensive in logical-mathematical or even spatial intelligence (practically a good training for the average IQ test) philosophy students for example have an average higher IQ, which is indicative of a general higher IQ despite training (aka have a general stronger mental capacity for short term and long term memory, logical-mathematical intelligence, etc). Furthermore, measuring intelligence by IQ or other intelligence testing methods is far above and superior to going for what degree is harder to get, or what you subjectively value, specially because (in my opinion) harder to get means stronger effort and not necessarily more intelligence. IQ will evidently not measure how stupid someone can personally be, but his capacities, and someone of higher IQ but the personality of a donkey will behave or speak as a donkey despite the IQ scores, which wouldn't change the fact that when it comes to the competencies measured by IQ tests he has a higher capacity.

    Also, choosing a more intensive career might mean far more effort necessary to finish it and choosing a less intensive career might mean the opposite, with neither decisions pointing towards higher or lower intelligence, only to either interest on different fields of study or difference in work ethics and resillience. If the goal is to become an officer and a least intensive degree means easier access to the job then it is not a bad decision, is the logical route, while I agree that an officer should be proven competent on technical fields as it affects the occupation (Solution: Special military school as a requirement). The problem is in the military system.

    -And you don't have to believe me, but I was in the Army and this is exactly the kind of shit that happens. I wasn't a good fit because I always spoke my mind and always got shit for it. If some Colonel is going to ask me how I like the unit and it's utter shit, he's going to hear it, whether my commander likes it or not. They sap all creativity and any kind of critical thinking out of everything, until you either just accept it and see it all as a sad joke or get out and move on with your life. I probably should have joined the Air Force, but from what I've heard from people that were in the Air Force, it has similar problems.

    I didn't denied such a thing as it is what one should expect for an institution supposed to engage in combat to defend the interests of any given goverment. I wouldn't suggest anyone with a critical turn of mind to get into an institution in which strict hierarchies of command and training for obedience are the norms. Armies not only in the US but practically everywhere work the same way, because it is necessary for them to work (with few little looser exceptions like the israeli army for example if I remember correctly).

  20. #20
    💩 Nobody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    TIM
    POOP™
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    -Uh no, engineering and technical degrees have more intensive studies and are going to be harder and more complicated than a psych degree or political science degree.

    I never said the opposite, but reffered to a study on the average IQ per major in the US.
    Bro, why even respond to me at all if you can't be bother to understand the point I was making in the first place?

    -And, lol, IQ is a rather sketchy metric for measuring intelligence. It's not only statistically skewed to match sample groups, where 100 IQ in 1900 does not mean the same thing as 100 IQ in 2020, but there is no universal IQ test and people bicker and argue over the validity of what an IQ test is supposed to measure and whether or not someone should or can improve on them from studying. It just really doesn't mean much. But whatever fine, I guess.

    Generally a typical IQ test measures logical-mathematical inteligence, spatial inteligence, memory performance, etc. Differences on numbers might be due to more sophisticated methods of measure. Training for IQ tests might create a superior result on a general difference of 10 points from the original result, and with being technical careers more intensive in logical-mathematical or even spatial intelligence (practically a good training for the average IQ test) philosophy students for example have an average higher IQ, which is indicative of a general higher IQ despite training (aka have a general stronger mental capacity for short term and long term memory, logical-mathematical intelligence, etc). Furthermore, measuring intelligence by IQ or other intelligence testing methods is far above and superior to going for what degree is harder to get, or what you subjectively value, specially because (in my opinion) harder to get means stronger effort and not necessarily more intelligence. IQ will evidently not measure how stupid someone can personally be, but his capacities, and someone of higher IQ but the personality of a donkey will behave or speak as a donkey despite the IQ scores, which wouldn't change the fact that when it comes to the competencies measured by IQ tests he has a higher capacity.
    It's still bullshit. You're essentially trying to use this to justify that degrees that are more intensive and require lots of questioning and critical and deep thinking are somehow going to correlate to the same kinds of intelligence of degrees that aren't. Wow, I guess I offended you because the correlative association I'm making here isn't a big stretch.

    Also, choosing a more intensive career might mean far more effort necessary to finish it and choosing a less intensive career might mean the opposite, with neither decisions pointing towards higher or lower intelligence, only to either interest on different fields of study or difference in work ethics and resillience. If the goal is to become an officer and a least intensive degree means easier access to the job then it is not a bad decision, is the logical route, while I agree that an officer should be proven competent on technical fields as it affects the occupation (Solution: Special military school as a requirement). The problem is in the military system.
    If you think that says nothing about a person or their kind of intelligence, I doubt you are an intuitive type.

    -And you don't have to believe me, but I was in the Army and this is exactly the kind of shit that happens. I wasn't a good fit because I always spoke my mind and always got shit for it. If some Colonel is going to ask me how I like the unit and it's utter shit, he's going to hear it, whether my commander likes it or not. They sap all creativity and any kind of critical thinking out of everything, until you either just accept it and see it all as a sad joke or get out and move on with your life. I probably should have joined the Air Force, but from what I've heard from people that were in the Air Force, it has similar problems.

    I didn't denied such a thing as it is what one should expect for an institution supposed to engage in combat to defend the interests of any given goverment. I wouldn't suggest anyone with a critical turn of mind to get into an institution in which strict hierarchies of command and training for obedience are the norms. Armies not only in the US but practically everywhere work the same way, because it is necessary for them to work (with few little looser exceptions like the israeli army for example if I remember correctly).
    Again, I was in the military and my unit did things like run people over and kill them while sleeping, telling soldiers to put 556 ammo in 762 machine guns, almost using a misaligned radar for live-fire around helos (a soldier snuck me away from my bullshit duties to look at it a day before); that was a stupid exercise. I remember they took all the anti-tank weaponry away from the TOC, then the heavy infantry destroyed our TOC and they had to cancel the exercise for our command to get their shit together. So then they get a bright idea, let's put the radar that's in a ditch (and effectively useless) and put it in the recon convey. So now we are out patroling around with a radar we can't set up so we can "presumably" do their details. So then they decide to hide the convoy in the trees, but put the radar out in an open field...so the 4 star general finds the radar in his helo and finds that we are there and lands chews out everyone in the command tent (lol) and the sad part is this was only a smart part of all the bullshit that happened at that training exercise...all shits created by retarded command staff...I was in a unit that was "undeployable" because we failed JRTC. That's not half of the dumb shit. One of the people I worked with once said that "I feel like it's my job to outsmart the command" - spot on, when they make it impossible to function or do anything, you learn to do everything behind their backs. All ridiculousness created by the command, pretty much matching what happened in Pentagon Wars (completely based on a true story).

    Now if you can honestly watch that movie and watch what this guy says about it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkO7WcTtp6Y and then come back here and tell me these officers are intelligent, then I know you are trolling hard here or I somehow offended you.

    And I'm only speaking for the "US Army", I have no experience with the Israeli army or any other military branches.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





  21. #21
    Outlier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    कलियुग
    TIM
    ILI-C
    Posts
    2,451
    Mentioned
    96 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I decided to go for a career in the military after I got my psych degree. I'm a machine gunner in a counter special forces unit and have been for just under 4 years now. However my ultimate goal is psyops. I enjoy the structure and the physical aspects of military life it's really bringing out the best in me. I enjoy getting paid to shoot guns and going to the gym. The travel to different locations is nice too. My collegues are good people and I consider many of them close friends cuz we did training together. It's also grounding, the Se nature of it provides an opportunity to grow.
    "The society that separates it's scholars from it's warriors will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting by fools." ―Thucydides

  22. #22
    💩 Nobody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    TIM
    POOP™
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlier View Post
    I decided to go for a career in the military after I got my psych degree. I'm a machine gunner in a counter special forces unit and have been for just under 4 years now. However my ultimate goal is psyops. I enjoy the structure and the physical aspects of military life it's really bringing out the best in me. I enjoy getting paid to shoot guns and going to the gym. The travel to different locations is nice too. My collegues are good people and I consider many of them close friends cuz we did training together. It's also grounding, the Se nature of it provides an opportunity to grow.
    I've heard good things about special forces. I'm jealous; I have a friend that works alongside Navy special forces as a medic and he seems to really enjoy it. They are extremely competent. That's cool and I hope I don't sound too negative; maybe I shouldn't have said anything, I don't know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





  23. #23
    Outlier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    कलियुग
    TIM
    ILI-C
    Posts
    2,451
    Mentioned
    96 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    I've heard good things about special forces. I'm jealous; I have a friend that works alongside Navy special forces as a medic and he seems to really enjoy it. They are extremely competent. That's cool and I hope I don't sound too negative; maybe I shouldn't have said anything, I don't know.
    Oh, I am not special forces. Just defence against sabotage units. Small squads working with a k9-handler to make sure let's say something important doesnt get blown to hell. I'm not sure what the american designation for it is but it literally means "counter special forces".
    "The society that separates it's scholars from it's warriors will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting by fools." ―Thucydides

  24. #24
    Outlier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    कलियुग
    TIM
    ILI-C
    Posts
    2,451
    Mentioned
    96 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    "The society that separates it's scholars from it's warriors will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting by fools." ―Thucydides

  25. #25
    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    15,441
    Mentioned
    867 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlier View Post
    I decided to go for a career in the military after I got my psych degree. I'm a machine gunner in a counter special forces unit and have been for just under 4 years now. However my ultimate goal is psyops. I enjoy the structure and the physical aspects of military life it's really bringing out the best in me. I enjoy getting paid to shoot guns and going to the gym. The travel to different locations is nice too. My collegues are good people and I consider many of them close friends cuz we did training together. It's also grounding, the Se nature of it provides an opportunity to grow.
    Your signature seems more significant now!

  26. #26
    RBRS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    123
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    Bro, why even respond to me at all if you can't be bother to understand the point I was making in the first place?



    It's still bullshit. You're essentially trying to use this to justify that degrees that are more intensive and require lots of questioning and critical and deep thinking are somehow going to correlate to the same kinds of intelligence of degrees that aren't. Wow, I guess I offended you because the correlative association I'm making here isn't a big stretch.



    If you think that says nothing about a person or their kind of intelligence, I doubt you are an intuitive type.



    Again, I was in the military and my unit did things like run people over and kill them while sleeping, telling soldiers to put 556 ammo in 762 machine guns, almost using a misaligned radar for live-fire around helos (a soldier snuck me away from my bullshit duties to look at it a day before); that was a stupid exercise. I remember they took all the anti-tank weaponry away from the TOC, then the heavy infantry destroyed our TOC and they had to cancel the exercise for our command to get their shit together. So then they get a bright idea, let's put the radar that's in a ditch (and effectively useless) and put it in the recon convey. So now we are out patroling around with a radar we can't set up so we can "presumably" do their details. So then they decide to hide the convoy in the trees, but put the radar out in an open field...so the 4 star general finds the radar in his helo and finds that we are there and lands chews out everyone in the command tent (lol) and the sad part is this was only a smart part of all the bullshit that happened at that training exercise...all shits created by retarded command staff...I was in a unit that was "undeployable" because we failed JRTC. That's not half of the dumb shit. One of the people I worked with once said that "I feel like it's my job to outsmart the command" - spot on, when they make it impossible to function or do anything, you learn to do everything behind their backs. All ridiculousness created by the command, pretty much matching what happened in Pentagon Wars (completely based on a true story).

    Now if you can honestly watch that movie and watch what this guy says about it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkO7WcTtp6Y and then come back here and tell me these officers are intelligent, then I know you are trolling hard here or I somehow offended you.

    And I'm only speaking for the "US Army", I have no experience with the Israeli army or any other military branches.
    I understand your point, but it is nonetheless a wrong association, as it is demonstrated by IQ testing. IQ testing is superior measure than degree to know if someone is intelligent, average, dumb etc. I know your point is that american officers are incompetent or lack intelligence I agree with you, it isn't the point. You might have interpreted that because I said punishing critical and vertical thinking is going to normally be punished in an army, but I was practically talking about how military structures would favor the hierarchy and give benefits to those who are compliant with it no matter how rotten, by which I didn't mean anything opposing your claims on the US army, as I don't have neither knowledge nor experience with it.

    Engineering might require stronger critical thinking abilities, but engineers have an average composite of lower IQ to philosophers despite being trained in abilities related to IQ, which would mean that engineering students have an average de facto IQ score lower than philosophy students despite training (and usually higher than political scientist, despite the latter composites not being low either). Most people study a specific degree because either they are interested in the field, interested in working in that field or because it could open the door to a better job. I sincerely think anyone average to high intelligence can finish any form of education, although it might be related to me not being american thus not fully knowing the extent to which education there is taught and the differences between degrees there. I also believe that in order to judge the levels of intelligence of someone one must judge by demonstration and not degree (AKA your officers are retards because they were born retards, their college degree is secondary to me). And that idea is supported by the fact that when tested on actual intellectual abilities only very low-level degrees (psychology, business, medicine) fall far beyond 5 to 6 points to engineering and technical degrees.

    I'm not trying to say for myself that engineers have lower IQ than philosophers and scientist, I'm providing data corroborating that (If I had to say why this is the case it would be quite politically incorrect). My point is that using degrees as a measure or associating traits with groups by degrees might make you take mistakes on other people, as compared to judging by personal characteristics and competence (as a good portion of major technological companies are starting to do)

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...ge-degree.html

    On a personal note, my brother-in-law (LSE) is a dropout from a human resources degree, and he got hired for managing, supervising... metallic constructions (Bridges for example) with one of his workmates being an industrial engineer. The result of that was that my Brother in law would end up doing half of the jobs destined to the industrial engineer because he either was too lazy or had not been capable of finishing, in the end that industrial engineer resigned from the job if I remember correctly, partly because of harsh work conditions.

    If you have another type suggestion for me I take those gladly. I see how a psychologist has had lesser mental pressure in his career, and that the barrier for completing psychology is lower than the barrier for completing a technical degree, but I would personally not judge a persons ability through that as there's other possibilities for choosing easier careers.

    Also I'm not offended, I just saw a pretty common line of thinking which I believe is inaccurate and not optimal for judgment and answered, don't worry I'm that much autistic with practically everything.
    Last edited by RBRS; 04-06-2021 at 01:32 AM.

  27. #27
    DeliMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    TIM
    IEI-N
    Posts
    235
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlier View Post
    However my ultimate goal is psyops.
    Funny, I was actually looking at psyops as a potential avenue for me! What about it appeals to you and why do you think you are suited for it?

  28. #28
    Outlier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    कलियुग
    TIM
    ILI-C
    Posts
    2,451
    Mentioned
    96 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeliMeat View Post
    Funny, I was actually looking at psyops as a potential avenue for me! What about it appeals to you and why do you think you are suited for it?
    Personal reasons. But I wanna be on the tactical team and not an analyst. Adventure is a major motivational factor for me, make of it what you will.
    "The society that separates it's scholars from it's warriors will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting by fools." ―Thucydides

  29. #29
    scientist donkey BrightDemonSheep96's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    On a toilet, right above you
    TIM
    ILE-H LEVF/omnibeta
    Posts
    6,344
    Mentioned
    267 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Seriously why endanger onself and potentially limit the future?Effin Ni/movie reel - it is linear in the end.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

    Your life is too short to actually do anything useful with it without being wasteful.

  30. #30
    I don't play, I slay. Lolita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Near Whole Foods
    TIM
    SEE-N™ VLEF™AP 863
    Posts
    1,147
    Mentioned
    75 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    "I thought I'd be allowed to eat in peace..." Most SLI thing I've ever heard.

    There's other areas in the military other than combat soldiers. I have an ILI uncle who's in the military working on weapons design and testing.

  31. #31
    EIE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    29
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I know an ILI who was a commander in the delta force, special forces... pretty badass. So weak Se is probably uncommon but not unheard of.


    I know an LII who works as a weapons contractor for the department of defense.

    I know of some INFx types who went off to war.. a mixed bag for those types. Military is well-suited for certain types but hell for others.

    XSE types seem to really flourish and enjoy the structure of going up the ranks and such.
    Last edited by EIE; 04-08-2021 at 12:38 AM.
    "The secret of change is to focus all of your energy, not on fighting the old, but on building the new. " - Socrates

  32. #32
    Alomoes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    TIM
    ILI INTp
    Posts
    712
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    I understand your point, but it is nonetheless a wrong association, as it is demonstrated by IQ testing. IQ testing is superior measure than degree to know if someone is intelligent, average, dumb etc. I know your point is that american officers are incompetent or lack intelligence I agree with you, it isn't the point. You might have interpreted that because I said punishing critical and vertical thinking is going to normally be punished in an army, but I was practically talking about how military structures would favor the hierarchy and give benefits to those who are compliant with it no matter how rotten, by which I didn't mean anything opposing your claims on the US army, as I don't have neither knowledge nor experience with it.

    Engineering might require stronger critical thinking abilities, but engineers have an average composite of lower IQ to philosophers despite being trained in abilities related to IQ, which would mean that engineering students have an average de facto IQ score lower than philosophy students despite training (and usually higher than political scientist, despite the latter composites not being low either). Most people study a specific degree because either they are interested in the field, interested in working in that field or because it could open the door to a better job. I sincerely think anyone average to high intelligence can finish any form of education, although it might be related to me not being american thus not fully knowing the extent to which education there is taught and the differences between degrees there. I also believe that in order to judge the levels of intelligence of someone one must judge by demonstration and not degree (AKA your officers are retards because they were born retards, their college degree is secondary to me). And that idea is supported by the fact that when tested on actual intellectual abilities only very low-level degrees (psychology, business, medicine) fall far beyond 5 to 6 points to engineering and technical degrees.

    I'm not trying to say for myself that engineers have lower IQ than philosophers and scientist, I'm providing data corroborating that (If I had to say why this is the case it would be quite politically incorrect). My point is that using degrees as a measure or associating traits with groups by degrees might make you take mistakes on other people, as compared to judging by personal characteristics and competence (as a good portion of major technological companies are starting to do)

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...ge-degree.html

    On a personal note, my brother-in-law (LSE) is a dropout from a human resources degree, and he got hired for managing, supervising... metallic constructions (Bridges for example) with one of his workmates being an industrial engineer. The result of that was that my Brother in law would end up doing half of the jobs destined to the industrial engineer because he either was too lazy or had not been capable of finishing, in the end that industrial engineer resigned from the job if I remember correctly, partly because of harsh work conditions.

    If you have another type suggestion for me I take those gladly. I see how a psychologist has had lesser mental pressure in his career, and that the barrier for completing psychology is lower than the barrier for completing a technical degree, but I would personally not judge a persons ability through that as there's other possibilities for choosing easier careers.

    Also I'm not offended, I just saw a pretty common line of thinking which I believe is inaccurate and not optimal for judgment and answered, don't worry I'm that much autistic with practically everything.
    Fight Fight fight fight.

  33. #33
    Decisive Queen StarPath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    TIM
    Executive
    Posts
    150
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don’t have much of an idea of how people with 1D Se would fare in the military.

    I feel like Beta STs would do really well in the military. Se-Ti can be pretty forceful and hierarchical.
    ESI-Se - 1w2 sp/so - 136 - VLEF - Lawful Neutral - Ravenclaw
    1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5
    Virgo Sun - Aquarius Rising - Scorpio Moon


  34. #34
    The Banana King's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    TIM
    ILE-Ti-H FLEV
    Posts
    81
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I know a SEI guy who used to be an air force pilot and is now a recruiter. Not weak Se but unvalued strong Se.
    LSI and SLE are probably the best types for it. Good understanding of hierarchy, power, good spatial awareness, not averse to violence, etc. I have an SLE uncle who has a high rank in the military back at my home country. His LSI dad also was a high-ranking officer.
    LII and EII are definitely the worst types for the military, mostly because of the pointless violence and not tolerating orders well. I'd say IEI and ILI could work better because at least they're receptive to Se.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •