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Thread: Politically Correct and Free Speech

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    @xerxe I think it'd be interesting to have the House run not by election but by random draw from the citizenry, like jury duty. You'd need to pass a civics test and understand what your duties were, and then you'd serve your two year term, and it'd pass to someone else. None of these 50 year-long professional politicians full of corruption, and the entire populace would need to be more educated on what's going on and their own part in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    @xerxe I think it'd be interesting to have the House run not by election but by random draw from the citizenry, like jury duty. You'd need to pass a civics test and understand what your duties were, and then you'd serve your two year term, and it'd pass to someone else. None of these 50 year-long professional politicians full of corruption, and the entire populace would need to be more educated on what's going on and their own part in it.
    That'd be significantly better than what we have now. It could even be stronger than jury duty: that every citizen would oversee some government activity basically every month for their entire life.

    Aside from cutting down on corruption, active participation in running the system would give people a sense of control and agency. I believe that it would alleviate the feeling of powerlessness that's probably driving disillusionment with politics.

    A shared sense of mission has the promise to engender greater patriotism, as it would tie people from diverse regional and economic backgrounds together. As a bonus, immigrants are easier to accept once they've passed some sort of rigorous initiation to "prove their worth and loyalty", at least in my experience when talking to anti-immigration folks.

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    All in all, the state becoming an extension of oneself, rather than the other way around, is (by definition) the most anti-Fascist premise that's possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    There is no solution except for better education. And not just for newspaper readers, but for the journalistic class as well. I'm not a journalist, and this is all theory and speculation, but my sense is that the oversimplification of news isn't always the result of carefully manufactured propaganda or biased editing. Although bias is a permanent feature of the news, as you'd know if you've payed even a little bit of attention over the past few centuries, a lot of misleading and unnuanced reporting probably boils down to mistakes made by journalists and editors.

    In the case of journalists considering writing deliberate propaganda, a better-educated class of colleagues would make it embarrassing to relay false or spin-doctored information. Wanting to avoid embarrassment can be a powerful motivator to be truthful and dilligent, and so can wanting to avoid the disappointment of former professors and mentors.

    Now when I say "education", I don't mean a few highschool or college civics courses. I believe that we should train 'professional citizens' in the same way that we train professional athletes. We need to to raise people to understand how their society works from an early age, which should also include routine participation in citizen committees that oversee social and economic activities. By the time someone is thirty, they should have the experience to identify questionable claims made by industry leaders and politicians. As a bonus, having to "work" as a citizen would make it easier to justify UBI.
    I can boil all that away and ask but one piercing question: What do you define as "better" education? I would be quite shocked if it failed to parse through my filter of what politics boils down to. Would you, a most exemplary reporter let us assume, report on a story if it punished your friends and rewarded your enemies in a rather extreme fashion? Would you allow such a story to become published if it resulted in a similar outcome of thine friends getting punished most severely and thine enemies getting rewarded richly?

    Oh you can talk a good game, but if you faced that choice IRL how confident are you in your ability to hold to your so called "convictions" eh? I can tack on additional variables if you wish . That UBI is rather rife with potential for abuse. After all, if one would wish to forsake it for some reason or another... why? Could it not also form an effective "mark of the beast" analogue? I mean, the best way to deal with "antisocial" persons would be to just revoke their UBI and wait for them to starve would it not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    All in all, the state becoming an extension of oneself, rather than the other way around, is (by definition) the most anti-Fascist premise that's possible.
    Bruh... whatever you're smoking I need some of it for experimental purposes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I can boil all that away and ask but one piercing question: What do you define as "better" education? I would be quite shocked if it failed to parse through my filter of what politics boils down to. Would you, a most exemplary reporter let us assume, report on a story if it punished your friends and rewarded your enemies in a rather extreme fashion? Would you allow such a story to become published if it resulted in a similar outcome of thine friends getting punished most severely and thine enemies getting rewarded richly?

    Oh you can talk a good game, but if you faced that choice IRL how confident are you in your ability to hold to your so called "convictions" eh? I can tack on additional variables if you wish . That UBI is rather rife with potential for abuse. After all, if one would wish to forsake it for some reason or another... why? Could it not also form an effective "mark of the beast" analogue? I mean, the best way to deal with "antisocial" persons would be to just revoke their UBI and wait for them to starve would it not?
    'Better education' means a better understanding of law, political science, economics, and any other art or science that's required to run a society. It means a more rigorous and thorough exposure which doesn't gloss over minutiae, and which can be helped along through practical experience on citizens committees. And no, education isn't a form of indoctrination — having a more thorough understanding of a claim puts someone in a better position to challenge it.

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    The underbelly of being "politically correct" is a type of faux-niceness where somebody who isn't naturally kind at all can hide behind the veil of being kind. It attempts to manipulate & take advantage of the ethically correct notion that the person who is most moral or innocent is naturally deserving of the most power as they in turn would do the most good 'objectively' with their power in ways that are the least self-serving.

    It's a lot like the infamous and relatable search for God. But in the real world it doesn't quite work like that- and usually it's just some power hungry asshole(s) who wants to dictate and control everything people say and even think. Or it's some person that naturally has well-intentions but is still unable to look at their Shadow and how they are also naturally a power hungry asshole that is not above others- which as we all know is many times even worse.

    It's also kind of backwards in that really, a truly innocent/good/naive person naturally of course does *not* want power over people like that. They just want to have fun and be safe. So when you 'read between the lines' (what Fe is supposed to be better at- but I think it's a bit unfair/oversimplification to Fi valuers to say that they are more likely to accept being PC) you can easily decipher what their true motivations really are.

    "Being PC" is kind of like putting some complex hunter rifle in the hands of a newborn baby/toddler and then kind of naively hoping the baby would use it appropriately and always shoot the targets that deserve it the most to protect society and be perfectly heroic. ((because it's an innocent baby and would naturally have the purest judgement of who is bad and who is good in the ways a sinful corrupt adult lacks.)) But because it is just a toddler - it's going to misfire all the time and shoot "innocent" targets that don't deserve it's penalties. Also because it is just a baby, it's also going to be easily duped and fooled by people pretending to be nice when really they have hidden, not-so-nice agendas.

    The total opposite of being PC is a type of PCness in and of itself though- as I don't believe being PC is good but I also don't think it's a wise idea to just deliberately try to offend others just because you can or because they shouldn't be 'too sensitive'- unless you are prepared for the consequences of them being able to defend themselves back to you & and you can karmically withstand the same cruelty from their actions. Because on a raw level how is that any different than a creepy PC state worker that wants to control language? It's both a form of bully power you are trying to interject onto others- so if a transgender person wants to be called a certain pronoun, (for example) it's not a big deal for me to just use that pronoun they prefer rather then fight about it. But to be fair- a person doing those sort of edgy things I think is often times trying to encourage a softer target to fight back to them as opposed to an official authority person who wants to more creepily shut down everything for everyone. ((this is also related to my Te polr bias too maybe))

    I guess what I'm trying to say- is there is white assholes that step on black people's necks but are man enough to accept the natural punishments if they are caught as opposed to the type of white asshole that wants to step on black people's necks but also use official authoritydom & the State/law/Illuminati to try and completely get away with it & thus avoid all consequences because they are supposed to be the 'good guys' in the naive soccer mom eyes. You can exchange 'black' for any type of minority the PC culture likes to coddle. I think @squark was trying to say something similar- don't trust something just because it has a rubber stamp of 'being official.'

    In the future there will probably be robotic lasers built by the Immunati that kills people on sight if they say something that's the least bit provocative or 'shocking.' All entertainment protocol must be approved by Sophia the Robot first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I didn't make this thread to say that Christians in particular are a victim of censorship, though I do think we are common targets, among many others. Free speech is fundamental to ALL of us, and to give a legal foothold to its loss is a serious threat. Peterson is a HERO to us all for defending it.

    I agree that there are many things that are more obviously, frighteningly wrong. Also the slaughter of abortion is an intrinsic evil. All three of these things matter, even though two of them (the slaughters we both mention) take less thought to arrive at the conclusion that they matter. But I know I need to limit the time of thinking on this to five minutes, so I will do that below. Peterson makes it a very succinct case for free speech in the 27 min. video at the top of this thread, though. Very satisfyingly and frighteningly clear.


    Thank you Kim for Exhibit A. This is EXACTLY what Peterson explained in the 27 minute clip above, the one you commented on without listening to. (It doesn't make for intelligent discussion when you don't read/listen to what you comment on.)

    What you say here is an EXACT example of how we are being taught to think by universities, the media, and leftwing politics. We are not individuals. We are our tribal group. We don't have individual thoughts - so how can free speech be an issue?
    (That is why you didn't listen to the video, right? Because it is about free speech - and how can that matter? )

    We are NOT individuals, we are TRIBE MEMBERS. We are whites, blacks, gays, straights - and what we think is what our tribe thinks.
    (So you don't even have to ask! Just accuse! Because you already know!)

    So we see here exactly how people can so easily accuse us, so boldly tell us what we think, what is in our minds, what is in our thoughts and what our motivations are. They look at us not as an individual, but a tribe, so they can tell us what we think. You are white, so you think this. Etc.

    It's very racist. And it's uncivilized, it's unkind, it's false, and it leads to resentment, to hate and to violence. That is what that kind of thinking does. I think we all know that after 2020, too.

    As Peterson explains clearly in the video, at the top of this thread, that very mindset you show us here, which is being foisted on us in our times, will be the rapid and violent ruin of our country.

    [@FreelancePoliceman, here are some summarized points you asked for. Points briefly made. For anyone who wants more moderate, vs. brief, explanation, there is the clip at the top of this thread. for long explanations, see the whole videos].

    Five minutes of points on this topic:

    Why is it that the ideologues of our day won't consider the individual (so naturally, free speech doesn't matter):
    2 minutes, 24 seconds: 18:01 -20:25
    https://youtu.be/dOmJx8mTnm8?t=1081 (link is set to start at 18:01)


    What you learn at university (and the media, and leftwing politics): The appalling view of tribal belonging, to the sacrifice of the individual.:
    2 minutes 29 seconds! 17:06-18:35

    https://youtu.be/UZMIbo_DxJk?t=1026 (link is set to start at 17:06)
    I don't need to listen to the video because I am quite familiar with JP - I was even his colleague once. There is freedom of speech and there is hate speech. There is also common decency. I grew up in a country where Nazi propaganda is illegal and I never suffered a single bit for it. You are against protecting the dignity of another person so you can say whatever you want? So by that logic, I can call you an "ignorant cunt" (note that I am not actually calling you that) and that's fine, yes?

    Has it ever occurred to you that identity politics stems from resistance against oppression?
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Freedom of speech is critical and isn't going anywhere. People telling you to shut the hell up because you're an idiot is part of free speech

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Freedom of speech is critical and isn't going anywhere. People telling you to shut the hell up because you're an idiot is part of free speech
    Getting banned and arrested, bank accounts shut down and your ability to use public and private services taken away for opposing the status quo, the media painting you as a villain.. isn't "free speech" .. its just those in power protecting their little slice of the pie.. Idk what bubble you live in but in mine that happens every day here in Europe. This has always been so, it makes sense to be so. Ppl in power aren't stupid or "good guys".

    It doesn't matter tho, alternative service and supply networks are being built separate from the mainstream system already. Power is everything, while the "right" and the "left" squabble in the spotlight, sensible people are busy working in the shadows.
    Last edited by SGF; 03-30-2021 at 08:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Getting banned and arrested, bank accounts shut down and your ability to use public and private services taken away for opposing the status quo, the media painting you as a villain.. isn't "free speech" .. its just those in power protecting their little slice of the pie.. Idk what bubble you live in but in mine that happens every day here in Europe. This has always been so, it makes sense to be so. Ppl in power aren't stupid or "good guys".

    It doesn't matter tho, alternative service and supply networks are being built separate from the mainstream system already. Power is everything, while the "right" and the "left" squabble in the spotlight, sensible people are busy working in the shadows.
    I don't know the conditions in Europe and expected they would be different. I was talking about the US

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Getting banned and arrested, bank accounts shut down and your ability to use public and private services taken away for opposing the status quo, the media painting you as a villain.. isn't "free speech" .. its just those in power protecting their little slice of the pie.. Idk what bubble you live in but in mine that happens every day here in Europe. This has always been so, it makes sense to be so. Ppl in power aren't stupid or "good guys".

    It doesn't matter tho, alternative service and supply networks are being built separate from the mainstream system already. Power is everything, while the "right" and the "left" squabble in the spotlight, sensible people are busy working in the shadows.

    This is a long read, but you can skip straight to the section labeled "March".

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...=pocket-newtab

    When I was in college, I thought I wanted to overthrow the government of the United States by force and violence. But really, looking back, I just wanted to be free of my parents and to get a good job and a girlfriend.

    P.S.
    I think that Vanderbilt, in the article, is an ESI e6.

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    @ouronis, re. "freedom of speech not going anywhere":

    NPR has created a database of "domestic terrorists". Look at Victoria Bergeson's profile as an example of who they'll smear as a "terrorist."

    "Victoria Bergeson is a registered nurse in Connecticut, according to state records. On Jan. 6, D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser ordered a 6 p.m. curfew in the district until the next morning. At around 7:15 p.m., Bergeson and a group of nearly two dozen others were arrested in the 100 block of First Street NW, near the U.S. Capitol building, after Metropolitan Police and Capitol Police issued multiple warnings to disperse. “People assume she’s part of that crazed mob,” Bergeson’s attorney told the Connecticut Post a few days after the riot. “She was never even close to the building ... I don’t think they can prove she knew she was on Capitol grounds.”"

    NPR, that bastion of liberal humanitarianism, has taken it upon itself to ruin this woman's life and ensure she never gets another job because she dared to attend a protest. In the next breath they'll put out some other article wondering why, oh why, conservatives could possibly be becoming "radicalized."

    When being the political enemy of NPR means being labelled a "domestic terrorist" whenever a prospective employer or landlord searches your name on Google there's not freedom of speech.

    Edit: Jere Brower's profile:

    "
    Prosecutors allege that Jere Brower was with a group of people outside of the Capitol building around 7:15 p.m., after the city had imposed a 6 p.m. curfew. Brower told NPR in an interview that he came to Washington to support the president’s protests and says he believes that the election was stolen. He said he never entered the Capitol building during the rioting (and prosecutors have not alleged that he did) and said he condemned the violence that occurred that day. A spokesperson for the U.S. Army confirmed that Brower had previously served, stating, "Pvt. Jere Dement Brower served as a Medical specialist in the Army from November 1996 to February 2001." In 2000, when Brower was 24 years old, The Spokesman-Review newspaper and The Associated Press reported that Brower had been involved with the neo-Nazi group the Aryan Nations in Idaho. Brower declined to discuss his experience with the Aryan Nations on the record."

    His charge is being at the protest an hour past the curfew, he never even entered the building, and now his name is associated with the Aryan Brotherhood and the BS charge of "terrorism."

    And does the typical liberal care that one of the most powerful media outlets in the country is destroying poor and powerless people's lives? No; they're political enemies, so fuck them.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 03-30-2021 at 04:38 PM.

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    I wish right leaning ppl cared this much when Trump was sending unmarked vans after protestors...

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    I wish right leaning ppl cared this much when Trump was sending unmarked vans after protestors...
    My very Republican parents used to rail at the government for spending money on lazy, good-for-nothing bums who didn't work.

    A few years after my father retired, he needed eye surgery and his military benefits paid for it. He gleefully showed me the bill, which was about $50k, and explained that he didn't pay a cent of that.

    I asked him, "Isn't that taking money from the government? Haven't you told me many times how immoral it is to take money from the government? Maybe you should GIVE THAT MONEY BACK."

    He instantly shut up, but my mother interjected at this point, "He EARNED that money!"

    "Really?", I said. "I thought he got paid for soldiering?"

    Her: "He DESERVES that money!"

    So, what it comes down to in the minds of conservatives is, there are the DESERVING recipients of government largess (them), and there are the UNDESERVING recipients of government largess (you). Same thing with getting a pass on violating laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    I wish right leaning ppl cared this much when Trump was sending unmarked vans after protestors...
    Do you honestly think you'd respond the same way as with NPR's "domestic terrorism" database if Fox or Breitbart began to create a database of BLM protesters who violated curfew laws in their cities, and referred to them terrorists and criminals? Liberals aren't immune to partisanship either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    @ouronis, re. "freedom of speech not going anywhere":

    NPR has created a database of "domestic terrorists". Look at Victoria Bergeson's profile as an example of who they'll smear as a "terrorist."

    "Victoria Bergeson is a registered nurse in Connecticut, according to state records. On Jan. 6, D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser ordered a 6 p.m. curfew in the district until the next morning. At around 7:15 p.m., Bergeson and a group of nearly two dozen others were arrested in the 100 block of First Street NW, near the U.S. Capitol building, after Metropolitan Police and Capitol Police issued multiple warnings to disperse. “People assume she’s part of that crazed mob,” Bergeson’s attorney told the Connecticut Post a few days after the riot. “She was never even close to the building ... I don’t think they can prove she knew she was on Capitol grounds.”"

    NPR, that bastion of liberal humanitarianism, has taken it upon itself to ruin this woman's life and ensure she never gets another job because she dared to attend a protest. In the next breath they'll put out some other article wondering why, oh why, conservatives could possibly be becoming "radicalized."

    When being the political enemy of NPR means being labelled a "domestic terrorist" whenever a prospective employer or landlord searches your name on Google there's not freedom of speech.

    Edit: Jere Brower's profile:

    "
    Prosecutors allege that Jere Brower was with a group of people outside of the Capitol building around 7:15 p.m., after the city had imposed a 6 p.m. curfew. Brower told NPR in an interview that he came to Washington to support the president’s protests and says he believes that the election was stolen. He said he never entered the Capitol building during the rioting (and prosecutors have not alleged that he did) and said he condemned the violence that occurred that day. A spokesperson for the U.S. Army confirmed that Brower had previously served, stating, "Pvt. Jere Dement Brower served as a Medical specialist in the Army from November 1996 to February 2001." In 2000, when Brower was 24 years old, The Spokesman-Review newspaper and The Associated Press reported that Brower had been involved with the neo-Nazi group the Aryan Nations in Idaho. Brower declined to discuss his experience with the Aryan Nations on the record."

    His charge is being at the protest an hour past the curfew, he never even entered the building, and now his name is associated with the Aryan Brotherhood and the BS charge of "terrorism."

    And does the typical liberal care that one of the most powerful media outlets in the country is destroying poor and powerless people's lives? No; they're political enemies, so fuck them.
    Dude, you are so brainwashed.

    But I appreciate the feedback, honestly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Dude, you are so brainwashed.

    But I appreciate the feedback, honestly.
    Brainwashed how?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Brainwashed how?
    Your posts are always about how the libs are oppressing conservatives lol.

    I think in general, your post does illustrate the problem of big brother, which has been abused by both sides.

    In the case of NPR, we have libel laws. I'm not sure if you could say it's a coordinated attack on free speech. Bad info is a thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Your posts are always about how the libs are oppressing conservatives lol.
    There's little difference between U.S. conservatives and liberals except cultural and wedge issues (abortion, guns, trans bathrooms, which sexual molester war criminal they want to elect). But I'm generally more sympathetic to the conservative "side" of the culture war for two reasons: one, they don't really have power anymore, and so they have an interest in supporting civil liberties, while liberals do have that power and have been abusing that power against people who can't fight back. Before 2008 or so these positions were reversed. Two, I find the motivations of Qanon people, evangelical crazies, and rural isolationists a lot more respectable than those of liberal professional and media types. Of course if you believe Trump is secretly working to bring down a pedophile elite you'd support him and be furious when the deep state commits fraud to kick him out of office. But if you're a liberal you know full well that Joe Biden is another pedophile warmonger oligarch, and yet you cheer him on and are happy when he wins because goshdarn it, he's just not as boorish as Trump! Biden's war crimes will bring America back to normalcy! -- that's absolutely disgusting and just intellectually and morally bankrupt.

    Put another way, conservatives are morons, but because they're morons they've arrived at a certain understanding of the world and their actions and beliefs make sense within that context. What bothers me about the liberal side of the culture war is how unprincipled it is.

    In the case of NPR, we have libel laws. I'm not sure if you could say it's a coordinated attack on free speech. Bad info is a thing
    It's an attack on people who attended the 'wrong' protest -- it's a free speech issue. Now that they have power, liberals are perfectly happy to use it to silence their enemies, and there aren't many people who are speaking against it.

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    Funny coincidence, I was going through my hard drive organizing old files, and I opened up one in which I'd saved some quotes on free speech, years ago. I'll just paste 'em here because.

    The right to discuss freely and openly, by speech, by the pen, by the press, all political questions, and to examine and animadvert (speak out) upon all political institutions, is a right so clear and certain, so interwoven with our other liberties, so necessary, in fact to their existence, that without it we must fall at once into depression or anarchy. To say that he who holds unpopular opinions must hold them at the peril of his life, and that, if he expresses them in public, he has only himself to blame if they who disagree with him should rise and put him to death, is to strike at all rights, all liberties, all protection of the laws, and to justify and extenuate all crimes.
    -William Cullen Bryant, defending the right of abolitionists to free speech, 1837

    If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.
    -Noam Chomsky

    We are willing enough to praise freedom when she is safely tucked away in the past and cannot be a nuisance. In the present, amidst dangers whose outcome we cannot foresee, we get nervous about her, and admit censorship.
    -E. M. Forster

    Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it. Martyrdom is the test.
    -Samuel Johnson

    The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with.
    -Eleanor Holmes Norton

    Free speech is intended to protect the controversial and even outrageous word; and not just comforting platitudes too mundane to need protection.
    -Colin Powell

    I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
    -Voltaire (François-Marie Arouet)

    If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.
    -George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    There's little difference between U.S. conservatives and liberals except cultural and wedge issues (abortion, guns, trans bathrooms, which sexual molester war criminal they want to elect). But I'm generally more sympathetic to the conservative "side" of the culture war for two reasons: one, they don't really have power anymore, and so they have an interest in supporting civil liberties, while liberals do have that power and have been abusing that power against people who can't fight back. Before 2008 or so these positions were reversed. Two, I find the motivations of Qanon people, evangelical crazies, and rural isolationists a lot more respectable than those of liberal professional and media types. Of course if you believe Trump is secretly working to bring down a pedophile elite you'd support him and be furious when the deep state commits fraud to kick him out of office. But if you're a liberal you know full well that Joe Biden is another pedophile warmonger oligarch, and yet you cheer him on and are happy when he wins because goshdarn it, he's just not as boorish as Trump! Biden's war crimes will bring America back to normalcy! -- that's absolutely disgusting and just intellectually and morally bankrupt.

    Put another way, conservatives are morons, but because they're morons they've arrived at a certain understanding of the world and their actions and beliefs make sense within that context. What bothers me about the liberal side of the culture war is how unprincipled it is.



    It's an attack on people who attended the 'wrong' protest -- it's a free speech issue. Now that they have power, liberals are perfectly happy to use it to silence their enemies, and there aren't many people who are speaking against it.
    My fucking phone ate my response to this

    My original response had way more exposition, but essentially I think you are attacking a strawman in your first paragraph and the second thing: I dont like the language of terrorism; shaming those who attempt any kind of violent revolutionary action is status quo for the status quo (I.e. not restricted to party and has been around before free speech was a thing); I need to look at the NPR thing to be able to deal in specifics.

    Just because I'm a liberal doesn't mean I love everything Joe Biden does and I'm sure that's the case for most. Even if Bernie was president I'd have issues with him.

    My original point was why interact as individuals on the level of collective rhetoric at all?

    I'm curious how you see the motivations of all the crazies you listed also
    Last edited by ouronis; 03-31-2021 at 12:20 AM.

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    Sigh. Free speech/expression is important for everyone. The issue is ppl are often only supportive of it if it is speech they politically agree with. Until people are more willing to point out the violations on their own side, it's all a wash of hypocrisy.

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    Yes, human beings are generally very sensitive and easily enraged. However, I do support people having the right to say anything they want even if I don't agree with it. Even if they say something offensive or 'homophobic' - I really don't see any reason to play victim with that as I know I can and have probably said things more offensive than them. lol <ewg>

    I draw the line on "action" though, or if it's clear to me certain words and what their real intention is - is lined up pretty clearly. (like physical bullying, real physical harm to others etc.) I think people deserve the right to not be physically invaded or have their boundaries crossed in that manner. Nobody has to like each other- but I think that's something I'm not comfortable tolerating. Impeding on people's physical property to make your point- because you so very clearly think you were in the right, or your feelings were just hurt by something so badly you have to retaliate - is just too big of a violation to me. Although in a way this I guess is sometimes a natural behavioral consequence by people who feel like all their power was taken away by "shadowy organizations" from a safe distance. Instead of people listening to them or whatever tho I think that has an opposite effect & makes them think they were quite correct in limiting their "freedoms" or whatever. This is a liberal bias probably but whatever. I try to be moderate- but I clearly lean to the left politically speaking and I don't think I can pretend to be perfectly balanced or anything. (who is?)

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    Other than through mass education, the best way to fight fake news is to be knowledgeable and eloquent, to be inquisitive about the opponent's disposition, and to raise the standard of discussion. People do have some sense of reason, and if they can't be taught to reason well, they can at least be taught the outlines of a reasonable argument.

    For controversial speakers on university campuses, the best way to fight them is by setting up a counter-seminar at the same time, with the same level of publicity and enthusiasm, in a professional setting with knowledgeable speakers. People like that run away from situations where they can't pretend to be victims of censorship. Their foundation is often weak enough for a small chink in their armour to create disillusionment with their ideas.

    The worst way to fight them is by impugning their character, which is a subjective argument with no obvious supporting evidence, which they can rebut unequivocally. There's an extremely low bar for credibly denying emotionally-laden character attacks, and it is incredibly easy for any side to declare victory in these contests. At worst, these speakers will get their much sought-after notoriety as controversial iconoclasts.

    Calling someone a fool is a lot more effective than calling them 'evil'.

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    We expect everything to be proceduralized because we're trained to live inside a massive bureaucracy. And that dovetails nicely into our culture of predictable instant gratification, of which banning is just another manifestation. People want democracy to be like Instant Oatmeal, meaning that they don't have to think too hard about it.

    But democracy isn't a set of procedures. The fundamental principle of liberty is the negotiation of potentially dangerous terrain, and that requires the development of sharp skills and the persistent willingness to use them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    The worst way to fight them is by impugning their character, which is a subjective argument with no obvious supporting evidence, which they can rebut unequivocally. There's an extremely low bar for credibly denying emotionally-laden character attacks, and it is incredibly easy for any side to declare victory in these contests. At worst, these speakers will get their much sought-after notoriety as controversial iconoclasts.

    Calling someone a fool is a lot more effective than calling them 'evil
    '.
    Putting aside the rest of your post for now, calling someone a fool is an emotionally-laden character attack, and it's relatively easy to make anyone unprepared, no matter how educated they are, look like a fool. You're essentially proposing people do "checkmate, athesists"/gotchas in public, which people who are good at reading and manipulating crowds are much better able to do than a typical overeducated professional factchecker type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    We expect everything to be proceduralized because we're trained to live inside a massive bureaucracy. And that dovetails nicely into our culture of predictable instant gratification, of which banning is just another manifestation. People want democracy to be like Instant Oatmeal, meaning that they don't have to think too hard about it.

    But democracy isn't a set of procedures. The fundamental principle of liberty is the negotiation of potentially dangerous terrain, and that requires the development of sharp skills and the persistent willingness to use them.
    The idea that the Internet is becoming more censored because Facebook users aren't thinking about liberal democracy enough, and that to fix this problem, those Facebook users ought to reflect more on their purported responsibilities toward the liberal state, is so disconnected from reality I don't know where to begin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Putting aside the rest of your post for now, calling someone a fool is an emotionally-laden character attack, and it's relatively easy to make anyone unprepared, no matter how educated they are, look like a fool. You're essentially proposing people do "checkmate, athesists"/gotchas in public, which people who are good at reading and manipulating crowds are much better able to do than a typical overeducated professional factchecker type.
    Exposing someone's ideas as foolish is not a character attack unless all criticism is a character attack.

    I'm proposing that people adopt a culture of criticism rather than a culture of issuing bans, and that this is a more effective way to win the argument. I don't see how that boils down to "gotcha" statements unless all criticism is a "gotcha" statement. If anything, a curated seminar, in which speakers prepare what they have to say, is less likely to involve theatrics than a Facebook video.

    All ideas have to be presented in front of crowds anyway. If a charismatic individual manages to exploit that, then it's not terribly different than what we have now.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    The idea that the Internet is becoming more censored because Facebook users aren't thinking about liberal democracy enough, and that to fix this problem, those Facebook users ought to reflect more on their purported responsibilities toward the liberal state, is so disconnected from reality I don't know where to begin.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "loyalty to the liberal state". What I said is that people should confront disagreements head-on, and that this is a more democratic principle than issuing bannings. Obviously, overreaction by SJW Karens isn't the only cause of censorship, and I never said that it was.

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