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Thread: What's the solution to atomization?

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    Ксеркс, царь царей xerxe's Avatar
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    Default What's the solution to atomization?

    Simple question. More and more people are feeling desperately alone and spending more time than ever behind electronic devices. People report having fewer friends than ever before.

    Going without sex has become very normal, and the rise in sexlessness is likely going to increase as virtual porn becomes more sophisticated. Porn will never be a substitute for human companionship. And, in spite of the fact that their situation is mostly self-made, a booming inceldom will lead to the resentment of women by more and more men.

    For more than fifteen years, there have been growing online communities of male separatists that want nothing to do with women. Although some of their activities are targeted towards benign aspirations of self-sufficiency and self-improvement, feelings of bitterness towards women (with the consequent misogyny that entails) are unmistakably evident when browsing their forums. Self-segregation is a fully sanctioned activity in an individualistic culture, but is it really the best breeding ground for more altruistic and more empathetic politics?

    There are more single mothers than ever before, without someone to help them raise their children. Children raised by a single parent have worse outcomes across the board. I don't get the impression that financial aid is going to make up for the lack of a second income. No amount of welfare is going to replace the presence of a second role model, either.

    I'm sure there's more, but that's all I can think of at the moment. Discuss.
    Last edited by xerxe; 03-02-2021 at 05:19 AM. Reason: reworded

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    What are the causes of atomization? That'll let you see what the solutions are. Why do people spend so much time online? Why are people lonely? Why do men hate women these days? Why are people having less sex?

    It's probably a very complicated set of issues.

    For one, I think a lot of guys don't like women because many men want to control them. But there's also a biological reason for less sex related to decreased testosterone.

    I spend all my time online because I live around rednecks, personally. There's no one here to talk to.

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    Something about how I see a very obvious convergence of interests here between ppl who would rather point fingers at each other and mock each other for being low value. Good job idiots

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    Ксеркс, царь царей xerxe's Avatar
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    Is lack of human contact a fertile breeding ground for the spread of religion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Is lack of human contact a fertile breeding ground for the spread of religion?
    No. Christianity found it easy to spread because of the Roman peace, the roads, and Latin being the common language.

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    To find solutions it may be useful to dissect this topic a bit psychologically.

    Interactions with people are becoming rare and unusual for new generations because they access their interests mostly by the internet now. In the past you couldn't just google solutions to your problems, games to play, information about your favorite topics. You had to talk to someone. This way you initiated connections that could later develop more as you get to know someone better while doing something together and spend more time with those who seem compatible. People are social creatures naturally and have need for connection with other human beings. The problem is more basic needs that you fulfill situationally like need to repair a device or have fun have a priority over more abstract needs that are fulfilled gradually like being loved or accepted. In the past focus on the first kind of needs automatically led to progress in the second kind. Now we're on the internet where we can get immediately to the thing we're looking for. You can get high on the instant gratification and return for more until it becomes your reality that you're addicted to and don't feel comfortable outside it. It's so effortless, no distractions, straight to the point. Relationships seem like a burden when you can just open XXX site and quickly get satisfied. Only satisfy these basic needs that were on your mind at the time though, these are more urgent. You may notice something is wrong, something important is lacking, but you lose ability to solve this problem. You're not used to people, they're aliens now. And getting loved by an extraterrestial creature is a bit more difficult than by a person, you have to find out how to communicate and cooperate from the scratch. And when you get angry when you fail, you blame the alien. This is hyperbolic of course, but it helps to describe this bad trend that's becoming a big issue now. Now we can think about solutions to stop this process at some point.

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    Perhaps atomization and alienation are the correct solutions to the situation in which we find ourselves.

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    Cool it with the anti-Grenitic remarks bucko! Grendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Porn will never be a substitute for human companionship;
    Yes it is, please stop spreading this lie. Too much claustrophobia, not isolation, causes misanthropy.


    We don't need more sex, we need less. We need fewer people alive in Western countries, not more. We produce most of the greenhouse gases. We should be dying off childless so as to diminish this.


    The last thing we need is to cover up every remaining forest and steppe with a city and turn this hellplanet into a godforsaken ecumenopolis. Literally anything but that. There is way too much clutter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    We don't need more sex, we need less. We need fewer people alive in Western countries, not more. We produce most of the greenhouse gases. We should be dying off childless so as to diminish this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Perhaps atomization and alienation are the correct solutions to the situation in which we find ourselves.
    i hit like instead of reply. i want to get behind what you say because you're nice but what the fuck., stopp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Yes it is, please stop spreading this lie. Too much claustrophobia, not isolation, causes misanthropy.


    We don't need more sex, we need less. We need fewer people alive in Western countries, not more. We produce most of the greenhouse gases. We should be dying off childless so as to diminish this.


    The last thing we need is to cover up every remaining forest and steppe with a city and turn this hellplanet into a godforsaken ecumenopolis. Literally anything but that. There is way too much clutter.

    Well, condoms are a thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Well, condoms are a thing.
    ya lets just use the appropriate measures to enjoy ourselves. thats all. for some reason cumming is better when theres a face to do it on and the future is ghey

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Well, condoms are a thing.
    Well I also suspect that most women who want to have sex with men at all also want to make more children, so moot.

    If you're a man, there is absolutely no hard-coded reason to desire offspring yourself, the instinct is just to cum inside whatever makes you horny and fuck off into the void. So the obvs solution is only cum into dumpsters.
    The future may be harder on women because they have a hard-coded reason to intrinsically want children, not just sex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Well I also suspect that most women who want to have sex with men at all also want to make more children, so moot.

    If you're a man, there is absolutely no hard-coded reason to desire offspring yourself, the instinct is just to cum inside whatever makes you horny and fuck off into the void. So the obvs solution is only cum into dumpsters.

    The future may be harder on women because they have a hard-coded reason to intrinsically want children, not just sex.

    You do get the occasional oddball, like this one enthusiastic fertility clinic doctor who inseminated hundreds of women with his own sperm.

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    I wanted kids. I still want more kids.

    Applicants should call.

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    This seems bad and everything, but the alternative of actually having to mix with people seems worse.

    There's definitely a need for us to learn from each other, but we have fewer and fewer opportunities to do that, as Qaz has mentioned. The value of being a person to another person has just decreased and people aren't finding that most people cross that "is it worth it?" barrier. We just need to stop pretending the old system isn't breaking and move on fully. I think part of the problem is we're trying to stay tied to the gay 90s and are too afraid of the cyberpunk future. The more policies put into place that reflect this, the more we'll feel the strain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    If you're a man, there is absolutely no hard-coded reason to desire offspring yourself, the instinct is just to cum inside whatever makes you horny and fuck off into the void.
    The neat thing about evopsych is that you can claim anything you want with it. Why is it than in pretty much every society there are mechanisms to stop men from "fucking off into the void?" A conspiracy by women, or what? And why shouldn't men want to be involved in their offspring's lives, if their involvement is more likely to improve the chances for their offspring's well-being/life/ability to fuck women?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Perhaps atomization and alienation are the correct solutions to the situation in which we find ourselves.
    Would you care to expand on this?

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    Cool it with the anti-Grenitic remarks bucko! Grendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    The neat thing about evopsych is that you can claim anything you want with it. Why is it than in pretty much every society there are mechanisms to stop men from "fucking off into the void?" A conspiracy by women, or what?
    A rule is only worth its weakest point of enforcement; if dads popping out bastards and then dicking off is even a heard-of phenomenon then all our countermeasures are all but fucking useless against it.

    And why shouldn't men want to be involved in their offspring's lives, if their involvement is more likely to improve the chances for their offspring's well-being/life/ability to fuck women?
    Because it's not selfish, it's self-sacrificing. And therefore idiotic.
    It doesn't benefit you. It just benefits the health of the species.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    A rule is only worth its weakest point of enforcement; if dads popping out bastards and then dicking off is even a heard-of phenomenon then all our countermeasures are all but fucking useless against it.
    I don't understand how this follows. Presumably these countermeasures reduce the rate of dicking off; do you disagree?

    Because it's not selfish, it's self-sacrificing. And therefore idiotic.
    It doesn't benefit you. It just benefits the health of the species.
    Sure, and evolutionary pressures work on the entire species, not the individual. What's wrong, either from an evolutionary or moral perspective, with prioritizing your species' well-being over your own?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I don't understand how this follows. Presumably these countermeasures reduce the rate of dicking off; do you disagree?
    Apparently they don't work well enough! Sometimes it still happens!


    These countermeasures work in fair weather, when there's enough cohesion for them to go into effect. But in a vacuum, there is no such context. In a vacuum, we only have individual behaviors. And the individual behaviors on aggregate for men, in a vacuum, assuming no outside forces pressure them otherwise, is that they don't intrinsically care about the fate of children like mothers do, they just wanna nut, because they don't experience the radical psychological alterations upon pregnancy that make them bonded to the offspring they didn't just grow.

    That's the point. The fact that there's a far greater tendency for the man to abandon the woman and child than there is for the mother to just dump the baby in a river shows that men aren't attached to children in the way women are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Apparently they don't work well enough! Sometimes it still happens!
    So, what, no one should use condoms because their efficacy is slightly less than 100%?


    These countermeasures work in fair weather, when there's enough cohesion for them to go into effect. But in a vacuum, there is no such context. In a vacuum, we only have individual behaviors. And the individual behaviors on aggregate for men, in a vacuum, assuming no outside forces pressure them otherwise, is that they don't intrinsically care about the fate of children like mothers do, they just wanna nut, because they don't experience the radical psychological alterations upon pregnancy that make them bonded to the offspring they didn't just grow.

    That's the point. The fact that there's a far greater tendency for the man to abandon the woman and child than there is for the mother to just dump the baby in a river shows that men aren't attached to children in the way women are.
    Sure, I also doubt men tend to be as attached to their children as women. But it's still not common for men to dump their babies in rivers. And I've known enough men who've had children to recognize that their personalities and priorities seem to change significantly after their partner gives birth. Sure, it may not be as drastic as what the mothers go through, and it may not always be strong enough to keep them from abandoning their kids, but the fact that this tendency sometimes fails doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    I also don't think you can abstract an individual human from a group. We're social beings. Our personalities, self-identities, and motivations are shaped almost entirely by others. There's no vacuum into which you can abstract a human; there is no "human nature" outside the group. There's a reason solitary confinement drives people to insanity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I also don't think you can abstract an individual human from a group. We're social beings. Our personalities, self-identities, and motivations are shaped almost entirely by others. There's no vacuum into which you can abstract a human; there is no "human nature" outside the group. There's a reason solitary confinement drives people to insanity.
    That's bullshit and you know it. If socialization were everything, freaks would never exist. Social pressure would pile on all the incentive in the world for freaks to change their own nature to match with group standards for their own survival, and yet they don't, they go all the way to the brink of death continuing to act the bizarre ways that come so naturally to them, because you cannot fight what's inside you. Nothing from the outside can change it, you're born that way, it's the only thing you know.


    Nature. Is. Everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    That's bullshit and you know it. If socialization were everything, freaks would never exist.
    Freaks only exist in reference to non-freaks. You're proving my point. Apart from society, there is no "freak."

    Social pressure would pile on all the incentive in the world for freaks to change their own nature to match with group standards for their own survival, and yet they don't, they go all the way to the brink of death continuing to act the bizarre ways that come so naturally to them, because you cannot fight what's inside you. Nothing from the outside can change it, you're born that way, it's the only thing you know.
    I never said that people do everything in their power to fit in. They don't. But everyone is aware of their social status and thinks of themselves in reference to it. It is impossible not to do this. A girl who doesn't want to "be like the other girls" is characterizing herself precisely in relation to these other girls.

    Nature. Is. Everything.
    Sure, and humans are by nature social.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    You do get the occasional oddball, like this one enthusiastic fertility clinic doctor who inseminated hundreds of women with his own sperm.
    Talk about a strategy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Why do men hate women these days?.
    She:

    >kids are parasites
    >I want a threesome
    >lets drink ourselves stupid and party!
    >I come from a fucked up family, no positive role models, divorced
    >casual sex with multiple partners and open relationship
    >I hate mainstream religion, but totally down for new-age mysticism & drugs
    >can't hold all these mental problems & baggage
    >my body is a burden
    >I read smut.. so much smut
    >love me the way I am! (is "large", mentally unstable, generally unhealthy and in debt)
    >hair the color of poisonous mushrooms signaling danger
    >I have 1-3 kids from previous relationships

    Me:



    Shits fucked up when you'd rather be alone or get a dog, than be in a relationship.
    Thats like treading volcel territory.. scary stuff.


    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 03-02-2021 at 10:24 AM.

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    Deeper social connections, as society's structures are being sown apart by social media. Or rather, people's use of social media. Technology has not been all beneficial. Social media is a creation of Silicon Valley which is heavily influenced by Objectivism, Ayn Rand's philosophy. The problem with Objectivism is that it is not cognizant of the dark side of human creations, it won't own up to it. A person is either a "rotter" or a creator, as per Rand. So anything a creator produces must only have positive effects. This is very much the case with how big tech entrepreneurs view their own creations. Perhaps they should have read more science-fiction.

    I think the problem really, is that there is too much innovation, and it's going too fast. Humans can't adapt. Tech entrepreneurs might have hoped humans would adapt, but we can't. That's not to say that all the stuff that comes out of Silicon Valley is bad, some of them are very good tools, just used very badly very often.

    I think part of the solution would be to invest more public money into things like education on how to use these tools. Also more government regulations on big tech.

    As to the incel thing, I see that as a consequence (at least in part) of women being more educated (in terms of degrees I mean), and many men falling behind in this area, perhaps because the education system is less attuned to men and how they function. And as much as I criticize Jordan Petesrson, he makes some good points about why this is, ie men having lower levels of accomodation and thus quitting more easily, including in college. Statistically speaking, more degrees means a higher position in society, and many men are finding themselves in difficult situations not being able to compete with many women (or a certain percentage of men) in terms of the resulting social status. I think here the solution is complex, perhaps again investing more public money into men's college-level education and professional training would be a solution. Also psychologists (hopefully those with a different approach than JP) should interest themselves in this question more. It is their job after all, and many seem out of touch with this. I think the elites have taken too much of an interest in so-called minorities, when it comes to their political and charitable involvment, and just forgot about the white working class that struggles, as well.
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    This seems bad and everything, but the alternative of actually having to mix with people seems worse.

    There's definitely a need for us to learn from each other, but we have fewer and fewer opportunities to do that, as Qaz has mentioned. The value of being a person to another person has just decreased and people aren't finding that most people cross that "is it worth it?" barrier. We just need to stop pretending the old system isn't breaking and move on fully. I think part of the problem is we're trying to stay tied to the gay 90s and are too afraid of the cyberpunk future. The more policies put into place that reflect this, the more we'll feel the strain.
    They think it's not worth it hahaha they really think so

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    Humans aeren't built for this kind of isolation, nor for any kind of "cyberpunk future".
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    She:

    >kids are parasites
    >I want a threesome
    >lets drink ourselves stupid and party!
    >I come from a fucked up family, no positive role models, divorced
    >casual sex with multiple partners and open relationship
    >I hate mainstream religion, but totally down for new-age mysticism & drugs
    >can't hold all these mental problems & baggage
    >my body is a burden
    >I read smut.. so much smut
    >love me the way I am! (is "large", mentally unstable, generally unhealthy and in debt)
    >hair the color of poisonous mushrooms signaling danger
    >I have 1-3 kids from previous relationships

    Me:



    Shits fucked up when you'd rather be alone or get a dog, than be in a relationship.
    Thats like treading volcel territory.. scary stuff.


    But this archetype is such a strong meme that it's very common for women to signal that they're the opposite. All the time. Maybe they're lying? Idk. I fit a couple of the things on that list cuz I'm human lol

    And somebody needs to stab the motherfucker in that meme. Sorry about the 5 girls on Twitter who said men need to go to therapy more, or whatever

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    They think it's not worth it hahaha they really think so
    Is this a reference to a song? I can't tell what you're trying to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    Deeper social connections, as society's structures are being sown apart by social media. Or rather, people's use of social media. Technology has not been all beneficial. Social media is a creation of Silicon Valley which is heavily influenced by Objectivism, Ayn Rand's philosophy. The problem with Objectivism is that it is not cognizant of the dark side of human creations, it won't own up to it. A person is either a "rotter" or a creator, as per Rand. So anything a creator produces must only have positive effects. This is very much the case with how big tech entrepreneurs view their own creations. Perhaps they should have read more science-fiction.

    I think the problem really, is that there is too much innovation, and it's going too fast. Humans can't adapt. Tech entrepreneurs might have hoped humans would adapt, but we can't. That's not to say that all the stuff that comes out of Silicon Valley is bad, some of them are very good tools, just used very badly very often.

    I think part of the solution would be to invest more public money into things like education on how to use these tools. Also more government regulations on big tech.

    As to the incel thing, I see that as a consequence (at least in part) of women being more educated (in terms of degrees I mean), and many men falling behind in this area, perhaps because the education system is less attuned to men and how they function. And as much as I criticize Jordan Petesrson, he makes some good points about why this is, ie men having lower levels of accomodation and thus quitting more easily, including in college. Statistically speaking, more degrees means a higher position in society, and many men are finding themselves in difficult situations not being able to compete with many women (or a certain percentage of men) in terms of the resulting social status. I think here the solution is complex, perhaps again investing more public money into men's college-level education and professional training would be a solution. Also psychologists (hopefully those with a different approach than JP) should interest themselves in this question more. It is their job after all, and many seem out of touch with this. I think the elites have taken too much of an interest in so-called minorities, when it comes to their political and charitable involvment, and just forgot about the white working class that struggles, as well.
    Imo Elon is right about education, it should be completely revamped. The old system is outdated:



    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    But this archetype is such a strong meme that it's very common for women to signal that they're the opposite. All the time. Maybe they're lying? Idk. I fit a couple of the things on that list cuz I'm human lol

    And somebody needs to stab the motherfucker in that meme. Sorry about the 5 girls on Twitter who said men need to go to therapy more, or whatever
    I was posting negative things women ive dated have told me.

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    ouronis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    Humans aeren't built for this kind of isolation, nor for any kind of "cyberpunk future".
    It doesn't matter what we're built for, just what we need to adapt to. It's never been the case that society has been some harmonious entity for the well-being of all human beings and it never will be. The more we fight against the trends in society the more powerless and less integrated we'll be when we get there. Resisting only creates malignancies in those who resist.

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Is this a reference to a song? I can't tell what you're trying to say.
    Your post was kinda revelatory. I thought people were bumming about the lack of real human connection but it hadn't occurred to me that they might be deluding themselves into thinking it's preferable

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Your post was kinda revelatory. I thought people were bumming about the lack of real human connection but it hadn't occurred to me that they might be deluding themselves into thinking it's preferable
    Qaz said it better. I'm not completely convinced of this, but there are some clues. Kids stay glued to devices, for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    It doesn't matter what we're built for, just what we need to adapt to. It's never been the case that society has been some harmonious entity for the well-being of all human beings and it never will be. The more we fight against the trends in society the more powerless and less integrated we'll be when we get there. Resisting only creates malignancies in those who resist.
    Humans also have some impact on the trends on society, we aeren't completely powerless, since trends are man-made.

    Also for the record it's very possible we won't end up in some cyber punk world in 25 years - the fountain of scientific innovation may simply run dry at some point.
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

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    My take on this:

    Social atomization is evolution playing judge, jury, and executioner. If natural selection starts deselecting more and more masses of people then that should serve as a wake up call for us that we aren’t doing something right. I think a lot of this has to do with cultural standards blindly adjusting what is desirable in people.

    Technology and innovation also plays a role. Constant innovations make it easier to exploit standards of desirability, and thus the standards become more exacting when everybody has the technology or whatever at their fingertips. For example: makeup, workout equipment, education degrees, braces and whitening toothpastes, standards of fashion, etcetera ad inifitum. We are basically conspiring a society of peacocks with disingenuous plumage.
    Technology and innovation also plays another role in that it serves as an escape for people who either fail to keep up or don’t want to play by the rules of society’s “fake” and altering standards. For example: sex toys and immersive works of fiction like video games, porn, literature, etc.

    Maybe we should just go on with our lives and just sit back and watch as social atomization burgeons and sorts itself out. Or maybe we should take a more hands on approach to understanding and fixing the causes. Either way, or whatever we choose to do, our sense of control over the situation is illusory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    She:

    >kids are parasites
    >I want a threesome
    >lets drink ourselves stupid and party!
    >I come from a fucked up family, no positive role models, divorced
    >casual sex with multiple partners and open relationship
    >I hate mainstream religion, but totally down for new-age mysticism & drugs
    >can't hold all these mental problems & baggage
    >my body is a burden
    >I read smut.. so much smut
    >love me the way I am! (is "large", mentally unstable, generally unhealthy and in debt)
    >hair the color of poisonous mushrooms signaling danger
    >I have 1-3 kids from previous relationships

    Me:



    Shits fucked up when you'd rather be alone or get a dog, than be in a relationship.
    Thats like treading volcel territory.. scary stuff.


    Last pic is kinda scary. Therapists these days are basically thought police.

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    Eldritch Abomination shotgunfingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Last pic is kinda scary. Therapists these days are basically thought police.
    They are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    They are?
    Have you ever heard of the DSM? There are so many "illnesses" that basically everyone can be labelled with something.

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