What's the solution to atomization?

[xerx]

Simple question. More and more people are feeling desperately alone and spending more time than ever behind electronic devices. People report having fewer friends than ever before.

Going without sex has become very normal, and the rise in sexlessness is likely going to increase as virtual porn becomes more sophisticated. Porn will never be a substitute for human companionship. And, in spite of the fact that their situation is mostly self-made, a booming inceldom will lead to the resentment of women by more and more men.

For more than fifteen years, there have been growing online communities of male separatists that want nothing to do with women. Although some of their activities are targeted towards benign aspirations of self-sufficiency and self-improvement, feelings of bitterness towards women (with the consequent misogyny that entails) are unmistakably evident when browsing their forums. Self-segregation is a fully sanctioned activity in an individualistic culture, but is it really the best breeding ground for more altruistic and more empathetic politics?

There are more single mothers than ever before, without someone to help them raise their children. Children raised by a single parent have worse outcomes across the board. I don't get the impression that financial aid is going to make up for the lack of a second income. No amount of welfare is going to replace the presence of a second role model, either.

I'm sure there's more, but that's all I can think of at the moment. Discuss.

[Aramas]

What are the causes of atomization? That'll let you see what the solutions are. Why do people spend so much time online? Why are people lonely? Why do men hate women these days? Why are people having less sex?

It's probably a very complicated set of issues.

For one, I think a lot of guys don't like women because many men want to control them. But there's also a biological reason for less sex related to decreased testosterone.

I spend all my time online because I live around rednecks, personally. There's no one here to talk to.

[SGF]

Why do men hate women these days?.

She:

>kids are parasites
>I want a threesome
>lets drink ourselves stupid and party!
>I come from a fucked up family, no positive role models, divorced
>casual sex with multiple partners and open relationship
>I hate mainstream religion, but totally down for new-age mysticism & drugs
>can't hold all these mental problems & baggage
>my body is a burden
>I read smut.. so much smut
>love me the way I am! (is "large", mentally unstable, generally unhealthy and in debt)
>hair the color of poisonous mushrooms signaling danger
>I have 1-3 kids from previous relationships

Me:



Shits fucked up when you'd rather be alone or get a dog, than be in a relationship.
Thats like treading volcel territory.. scary stuff.

[ashlesha]

She:

>kids are parasites
>I want a threesome
>lets drink ourselves stupid and party!
>I come from a fucked up family, no positive role models, divorced
>casual sex with multiple partners and open relationship
>I hate mainstream religion, but totally down for new-age mysticism & drugs
>can't hold all these mental problems & baggage
>my body is a burden
>I read smut.. so much smut
>love me the way I am! (is "large", mentally unstable, generally unhealthy and in debt)
>hair the color of poisonous mushrooms signaling danger
>I have 1-3 kids from previous relationships

Me:



Shits fucked up when you'd rather be alone or get a dog, than be in a relationship.
Thats like treading volcel territory.. scary stuff.

But this archetype is such a strong meme that it's very common for women to signal that they're the opposite. All the time. Maybe they're lying? Idk. I fit a couple of the things on that list cuz I'm human lol

And somebody needs to stab the motherfucker in that meme. Sorry about the 5 girls on Twitter who said men need to go to therapy more, or whatever

[Aramas]

She:

>kids are parasites
>I want a threesome
>lets drink ourselves stupid and party!
>I come from a fucked up family, no positive role models, divorced
>casual sex with multiple partners and open relationship
>I hate mainstream religion, but totally down for new-age mysticism & drugs
>can't hold all these mental problems & baggage
>my body is a burden
>I read smut.. so much smut
>love me the way I am! (is "large", mentally unstable, generally unhealthy and in debt)
>hair the color of poisonous mushrooms signaling danger
>I have 1-3 kids from previous relationships

Me:



Shits fucked up when you'd rather be alone or get a dog, than be in a relationship.
Thats like treading volcel territory.. scary stuff.

Last pic is kinda scary. Therapists these days are basically thought police.

[SGF]

Last pic is kinda scary. Therapists these days are basically thought police.

They are?

[Aramas]

They are?

Have you ever heard of the DSM? There are so many "illnesses" that basically everyone can be labelled with something.

[ashlesha]

Something about how I see a very obvious convergence of interests here between ppl who would rather point fingers at each other and mock each other for being low value. Good job idiots

[xerx]

Is lack of human contact a fertile breeding ground for the spread of religion?

[Aramas]

Is lack of human contact a fertile breeding ground for the spread of religion?

No. Christianity found it easy to spread because of the Roman peace, the roads, and Latin being the common language.

[xerx]

No. Christianity found it easy to spread because of the Roman peace, the roads, and Latin being the common language.

I know that you're being facetious, but I was being serious. Religion offers an immediate solution to loneliness, friendlessness, and low value as a mate. Religion is also vehemently outspoken about the dangers of porn and other forms of hyperstimulus.

[qaz00]

To find solutions it may be useful to dissect this topic a bit psychologically.

Interactions with people are becoming rare and unusual for new generations because they access their interests mostly by the internet now. In the past you couldn't just google solutions to your problems, games to play, information about your favorite topics. You had to talk to someone. This way you initiated connections that could later develop more as you get to know someone better while doing something together and spend more time with those who seem compatible. People are social creatures naturally and have need for connection with other human beings. The problem is more basic needs that you fulfill situationally like need to repair a device or have fun have a priority over more abstract needs that are fulfilled gradually like being loved or accepted. In the past focus on the first kind of needs automatically led to progress in the second kind. Now we're on the internet where we can get immediately to the thing we're looking for. You can get high on the instant gratification and return for more until it becomes your reality that you're addicted to and don't feel comfortable outside it. It's so effortless, no distractions, straight to the point. Relationships seem like a burden when you can just open XXX site and quickly get satisfied. Only satisfy these basic needs that were on your mind at the time though, these are more urgent. You may notice something is wrong, something important is lacking, but you lose ability to solve this problem. You're not used to people, they're aliens now. And getting loved by an extraterrestial creature is a bit more difficult than by a person, you have to find out how to communicate and cooperate from the scratch. And when you get angry when you fail, you blame the alien. This is hyperbolic of course, but it helps to describe this bad trend that's becoming a big issue now. Now we can think about solutions to stop this process at some point.

[Adam Strange]

Perhaps atomization and alienation are the correct solutions to the situation in which we find ourselves.

[ashlesha]

Perhaps atomization and alienation are the correct solutions to the situation in which we find ourselves.

i hit like instead of reply. i want to get behind what you say because you're nice but what the fuck., stopp

[FreelancePoliceman]

Perhaps atomization and alienation are the correct solutions to the situation in which we find ourselves.

Would you care to expand on this?

[Adam Strange]

I wanted kids. I still want more kids.

Applicants should call.

[ouronis]

This seems bad and everything, but the alternative of actually having to mix with people seems worse.

There's definitely a need for us to learn from each other, but we have fewer and fewer opportunities to do that, as Qaz has mentioned. The value of being a person to another person has just decreased and people aren't finding that most people cross that "is it worth it?" barrier. We just need to stop pretending the old system isn't breaking and move on fully. I think part of the problem is we're trying to stay tied to the gay 90s and are too afraid of the cyberpunk future. The more policies put into place that reflect this, the more we'll feel the strain.

[ashlesha]

This seems bad and everything, but the alternative of actually having to mix with people seems worse.

There's definitely a need for us to learn from each other, but we have fewer and fewer opportunities to do that, as Qaz has mentioned. The value of being a person to another person has just decreased and people aren't finding that most people cross that "is it worth it?" barrier. We just need to stop pretending the old system isn't breaking and move on fully. I think part of the problem is we're trying to stay tied to the gay 90s and are too afraid of the cyberpunk future. The more policies put into place that reflect this, the more we'll feel the strain.

They think it's not worth it hahaha they really think so

[ouronis]

They think it's not worth it hahaha they really think so

Is this a reference to a song? I can't tell what you're trying to say.

[ashlesha]

Is this a reference to a song? I can't tell what you're trying to say.

Your post was kinda revelatory. I thought people were bumming about the lack of real human connection but it hadn't occurred to me that they might be deluding themselves into thinking it's preferable

[ouronis]

Your post was kinda revelatory. I thought people were bumming about the lack of real human connection but it hadn't occurred to me that they might be deluding themselves into thinking it's preferable

Qaz said it better. I'm not completely convinced of this, but there are some clues. Kids stay glued to devices, for example.

[Ave]

Deeper social connections, as society's structures are being sown apart by social media. Or rather, people's use of social media. Technology has not been all beneficial. Social media is a creation of Silicon Valley which is heavily influenced by Objectivism, Ayn Rand's philosophy. The problem with Objectivism is that it is not cognizant of the dark side of human creations, it won't own up to it. A person is either a "rotter" or a creator, as per Rand. So anything a creator produces must only have positive effects. This is very much the case with how big tech entrepreneurs view their own creations. Perhaps they should have read more science-fiction.

I think the problem really, is that there is too much innovation, and it's going too fast. Humans can't adapt. Tech entrepreneurs might have hoped humans would adapt, but we can't. That's not to say that all the stuff that comes out of Silicon Valley is bad, some of them are very good tools, just used very badly very often.

I think part of the solution would be to invest more public money into things like education on how to use these tools. Also more government regulations on big tech.

As to the incel thing, I see that as a consequence (at least in part) of women being more educated (in terms of degrees I mean), and many men falling behind in this area, perhaps because the education system is less attuned to men and how they function. And as much as I criticize Jordan Petesrson, he makes some good points about why this is, ie men having lower levels of accomodation and thus quitting more easily, including in college. Statistically speaking, more degrees means a higher position in society, and many men are finding themselves in difficult situations not being able to compete with many women (or a certain percentage of men) in terms of the resulting social status. I think here the solution is complex, perhaps again investing more public money into men's college-level education and professional training would be a solution. Also psychologists (hopefully those with a different approach than JP) should interest themselves in this question more. It is their job after all, and many seem out of touch with this. I think the elites have taken too much of an interest in so-called minorities, when it comes to their political and charitable involvment, and just forgot about the white working class that struggles, as well.

[SGF]

Deeper social connections, as society's structures are being sown apart by social media. Or rather, people's use of social media. Technology has not been all beneficial. Social media is a creation of Silicon Valley which is heavily influenced by Objectivism, Ayn Rand's philosophy. The problem with Objectivism is that it is not cognizant of the dark side of human creations, it won't own up to it. A person is either a "rotter" or a creator, as per Rand. So anything a creator produces must only have positive effects. This is very much the case with how big tech entrepreneurs view their own creations. Perhaps they should have read more science-fiction.

I think the problem really, is that there is too much innovation, and it's going too fast. Humans can't adapt. Tech entrepreneurs might have hoped humans would adapt, but we can't. That's not to say that all the stuff that comes out of Silicon Valley is bad, some of them are very good tools, just used very badly very often.

I think part of the solution would be to invest more public money into things like education on how to use these tools. Also more government regulations on big tech.

As to the incel thing, I see that as a consequence (at least in part) of women being more educated (in terms of degrees I mean), and many men falling behind in this area, perhaps because the education system is less attuned to men and how they function. And as much as I criticize Jordan Petesrson, he makes some good points about why this is, ie men having lower levels of accomodation and thus quitting more easily, including in college. Statistically speaking, more degrees means a higher position in society, and many men are finding themselves in difficult situations not being able to compete with many women (or a certain percentage of men) in terms of the resulting social status. I think here the solution is complex, perhaps again investing more public money into men's college-level education and professional training would be a solution. Also psychologists (hopefully those with a different approach than JP) should interest themselves in this question more. It is their job after all, and many seem out of touch with this. I think the elites have taken too much of an interest in so-called minorities, when it comes to their political and charitable involvment, and just forgot about the white working class that struggles, as well.

Imo Elon is right about education, it should be completely revamped. The old system is outdated:

But this archetype is such a strong meme that it's very common for women to signal that they're the opposite. All the time. Maybe they're lying? Idk. I fit a couple of the things on that list cuz I'm human lol

And somebody needs to stab the motherfucker in that meme. Sorry about the 5 girls on Twitter who said men need to go to therapy more, or whatever

I was posting negative things women ive dated have told me.

[xerx]

As to the incel thing, I see that as a consequence (at least in part) of women being more educated (in terms of degrees I mean), and many men falling behind in this area, perhaps because the education system is less attuned to men and how they function. And as much as I criticize Jordan Petesrson, he makes some good points about why this is, ie men having lower levels of accomodation and thus quitting more easily, including in college. Statistically speaking, more degrees means a higher position in society, and many men are finding themselves in difficult situations not being able to compete with many women (or a certain percentage of men) in terms of the resulting social status. I think here the solution is complex, perhaps again investing more public money into men's college-level education and professional training would be a solution. Also psychologists (hopefully those with a different approach than JP) should interest themselves in this question more. It is their job after all, and many seem out of touch with this. I think the elites have taken too much of an interest in so-called minorities, when it comes to their political and charitable involvment, and just forgot about the white working class that struggles, as well.

I'm glad that someone brought up Jordan Peterson. I also criticize him a lot for his political views, views on women's place in society, views on race and IQ, selective crticism of censorship, and for his bumbling attempts to demonstrate expertise outside of his own field.

But, in his haphazard and imprecise way, keeping in mind that his writings act like a Rorschach test, he has put his finger on the crisis of modern masculinity.

I agree that there is a lack of male-centric education, and that a renewed emphasis on trades, perhaps as early as age ten, seems like a noteworthy suggestion. Germany does this through a selective school system that may be controversial in some other Western countries.

Trades are also vital to the economy, pay well, and are some of the hardest jobs to automate. But that's a separate discussion.

[Ave]

Humans aeren't built for this kind of isolation, nor for any kind of "cyberpunk future".

[ouronis]

Humans aeren't built for this kind of isolation, nor for any kind of "cyberpunk future".

It doesn't matter what we're built for, just what we need to adapt to. It's never been the case that society has been some harmonious entity for the well-being of all human beings and it never will be. The more we fight against the trends in society the more powerless and less integrated we'll be when we get there. Resisting only creates malignancies in those who resist.

[Ave]

It doesn't matter what we're built for, just what we need to adapt to. It's never been the case that society has been some harmonious entity for the well-being of all human beings and it never will be. The more we fight against the trends in society the more powerless and less integrated we'll be when we get there. Resisting only creates malignancies in those who resist.

Humans also have some impact on the trends on society, we aeren't completely powerless, since trends are man-made.

Also for the record it's very possible we won't end up in some cyber punk world in 25 years - the fountain of scientific innovation may simply run dry at some point.

[Djinn]

My take on this:

Social atomization is evolution playing judge, jury, and executioner. If natural selection starts deselecting more and more masses of people then that should serve as a wake up call for us that we aren’t doing something right. I think a lot of this has to do with cultural standards blindly adjusting what is desirable in people.

Technology and innovation also plays a role. Constant innovations make it easier to exploit standards of desirability, and thus the standards become more exacting when everybody has the technology or whatever at their fingertips. For example: makeup, workout equipment, education degrees, braces and whitening toothpastes, standards of fashion, etcetera ad inifitum. We are basically conspiring a society of peacocks with disingenuous plumage.
Technology and innovation also plays another role in that it serves as an escape for people who either fail to keep up or don’t want to play by the rules of society’s “fake” and altering standards. For example: sex toys and immersive works of fiction like video games, porn, literature, etc.

Maybe we should just go on with our lives and just sit back and watch as social atomization burgeons and sorts itself out. Or maybe we should take a more hands on approach to understanding and fixing the causes. Either way, or whatever we choose to do, our sense of control over the situation is illusory.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Part of the problem I think is people working all the time, with less time for socialisation. Maybe better financial planning would help.

Possibly also the urban sprawl is a big issue. More green spaces would help in places with tolerable weather.

More social and community groups would be advantageous, although I get the feeling if those were a good fix, they would already have been well-utilised.

I think alienation happens partly as a person ages while losing their past friends but also because of deprivation in an area. Politicians probably don't have a big incentive to tackle such deprivation, because those areas tend not to vote as much. Giving more power to local authorities/politicians may help.

[Aramas]

Part of the problem I think is people working all the time, with less time for socialisation. Maybe better financial planning would help.

Possibly also the urban sprawl is a big issue. More green spaces would help in places with tolerable weather.

More social and community groups would be advantageous, although I get the feeling if those were a good fix, they would already have been well-utilised.

I think alienation happens partly as a person ages while losing their past friends but also because of deprivation in an area. Politicians probably don't have a big incentive to tackle such deprivation, because those areas tend not to vote as much. Giving more power to local authorities/politicians may help.

Can't plan finances you don't have. Social welfare is going to be an increasing necessity.

[Adam Strange]

So, what do the numbers say about how we're doing?

https://jabberwocking.com/american-w...y-great-shape/

Meanwhile, what does Fox News have to say?

https://www.mediamatters.org/tucker-...nue-human-race

Man, I guess we're all doomed.

[Aramas]

So, what do the numbers say about how we're doing?

https://jabberwocking.com/american-w...y-great-shape/

Meanwhile, what does Fox News have to say?

https://www.mediamatters.org/tucker-...nue-human-race

Man, I guess we're all doomed.

Selective statistics ftw

[Aramas]

Better family values, role models, support networks & communities. More empathy. Faith is helpful too but shouldn't be shoved down people's throats.

-Family values are everywhere in the Bible belt. The Bible belt and the southeast in the USA are the poorest places.
-Faith is only helpful if you're naturally inclined towards it. And even then there's caveats.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-and-the-nones

"For example, a just-published study by Dr. Joseph Baker at East Tennessee State University indicates that atheists have the best mental health among the "nones," similar to that of the highly-religious. In contrast, "non-affiliated theists" had the poorest mental health."

[ooo]

like the ugly truth behind marketing is that it is not showing what a business wants to sell, but what the population wants to buy, so it is true for the media and technology in general: they dont feed us what they want, we're the one pursuing them.


it's cute that we analyze the matter and point out the problems and idealize a better change but these big doomy talks are sorta hypocritical coming from online forumees, i hope u realize :]

[Adam Strange]

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...78023121996854

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

WoW. Well, first off- I never even really believed in the 'power of friendship' even before the internet became so popular and Karen-ized. It always seemed to me like such a fake and brittle thing, easily broken the second 'shit got real' as it were. I guess I just can't miss something that I never valued or even believed in much to begin with. I think people just want to start families with an individual they like in a private close Fi way you know. Even if Fi is your PoLR. I don't think people want 'friends.' I think that's some dumb Illuminati thing they tried teaching us when we were younger so they could spy on people's vulnerabilities, but like anything fake and business-y - it's just fake and business-y.

"I'm not here to make friends" when a reality tv show contestant says that- it sounds redundant and stupid, because really honey- who the fuck is?

As for men hating women- ehhh can you really blame some of them? The way Te society has handled this issue has been incredibly awful and hurtful. Don't make misogyny out to be this campy scapegoated demon that it isn't- it doesn't work that way. Plenty of males that hate women have had real, bad experiences with women only wanting one type of guy- or women simply being cruel jerks to them or even sexually abusing them and getting away with it because they are women and they have the illusion of greater innocence backing them up, and so they are just cruel jerks back to them. It doesn't make it 'right' but people are usually going to just dish out to the world the same amount of kindness it initially gave to them. You can't just expect people to be the bigger person- well, they should, of course definitely- but as Xena would say while staring at a campfire intently 'that's so hard to do.' If people truly want to stop misogyny, they should probably not look at this issue as so one-sided and unfair to the male's perspective. In my experience it's often a misandrist that's projecting lol! They always want males to be just one certain way and are sooo annoyed and hateful that we are varied.

The problem with society is that it tends to treat mild or curable forms of "misogyny" as though the guy was Ted Bundy or some Bundy in the making but that's not really close to the truth and it's way too one sided and stupid. Because people get some virtue signal pat on the back for the 'I support women thing!' You can treat a lot of "misogyny" simply by being kind to the person and showing them not all women are X yourself ((much of the fire gets fueled because the "feminist" really does do the things the incel rants to them about though even if it's not PC to admit that)) - but to be fair the incel/woman hater also has to be looking for something different themselves as well.

I also hate a lot of straight male feminists, because it's often such a gross and ingenuine thing. Like white knighting women just so they will touch you sexually because you're not an alpha guy or the type of males women usually want- so you try to be sexual with women by basically completely bowing down to their narcissism & being a doormat ((when most women are going to be repulsed by this and further not touch you like you want so then you get in real world trouble for sexually abusing or harassing them lol)) but I should be a bit more compassionate to this maybe because I'm not straight and so it's probably just some mating strategy for less-alpha guys. But I still find it immoral and disgusting. Because you could give two shits about 'female empowerment' you just want to be some dumb beta str8 cuck around a bunch of women sexually and paint it as some noble thing.

I mean, sticking up for an entire gender or denouncing it as a whole no matter what gender ur talking about is retarded to me anyway because don't we have our individuality any more. I thought that was the entire point- but in "feminism" women just often become every hateful negative stereotype they're trying to fight off really. No, gay guys aren't any better- that's why I'm not in any gay movement organizations either. I loathe anything Te.

I probably agree that people fucking and making kids less is a good thing- and also gay men fucking less is good too. Less people and less AIDS - win/win. As history has shown us, not much good came from people being soulless fuck machines anyway. I mean I like primal brutal "animalistic" sex as much as the next human- but if it isn't meaningful or loving as well, what's the point really? We should have a quality of human species not quantity anyway- a perfection of elites, not 'I bred durr cuz gawd told me to do so' Cleetus from Simpsons voice.

and this is just a whiny introverted thing- but the world feels too busy and chaotic and 'overdone' to me as it is. I don't want another person added to the already chaotic insanity mix.

[SGF]

You know you are an atomized product of globalized society when you have more than 50% common culture with ppl from other nations and one day you notice that everything is easier for you in English.. while in your native language you struggle and get annoyed when dealing with higher lvl language necessities.



Sometimes its like I'm an alien in my own community. This is very sad.

[squark]

Huh. Maybe there's another lesson to the tower of babel.

For a healthy functioning ecosystem you need diversity, different things filling different niches. Monoculture is bad environmentally, agriculturally, and probably for humanity itself as well. Globalism is a death blow imo. Smaller businesses, smaller churches, smaller communities, more variety, less giant overarching megabusinesses running the whole world off a cliff. Localize for more resilience, create natural redundancy into the system.

[ooo]

support your local veggies!

[xerx]

I'd go further: some of JBP's suggestions are actually good.

When your mother tells you to "clean your room", it's because she's embarassed that visitors might see it. Whether or not that's a fair interpretation of her request, it is a common one. When JBP tells you to clean your room, it's because control over one's environment (and, by extension, one's self) is the starting point of agency and independence. The same suggestion, coming from a paternal authority figure, has a completely different meaning.

What do feminists offer as the role for men in society? Mainly what not to do: don't abuse women, don't rape, etc. The reduction of domestic violence and rape are an unambiguous good. But, on their own, these are orders and regulations: a series of formulaic negative restrictions, not a charismatic, positive vision for how to be a man in modern society. Only another, older male role model can give you that.

JBP is a reactionary, let's not mince words. Let's keep in mind that "clean your room" is a double entendre which also means "don't question the system"; accept your place as a cog in a vast bureaucratic machine; and that your superiors have earned their place by nature, not by structural chicanery. The upshot of JBP's rhetoric is to sanitize the abuses of power.

The best thing to happen to people like this, IMO, is to lose. With their political threat gone, the tribal animosity is lifted, and it becomes easier, politically, for their opponents to pick up a less noxious version of their ideas.