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Thread: Religion is Everything

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    I get that a container can't fully ensconce another container of an equal volume and composition or larger, yes. That's basically what the search for meaning is. It's the brain trying to simulate something it can't contain.

    If it can never succeed, then it doesn't need to worry about succeeding. I'd also conjecture that most of the nice things we have aren't the product of seeking meaning, but simply survival, and meaning bulldozes over agency and survival in many cases.

    I simply don't trust it.
    “He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.”

    ― Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Cool it with the anti-Grenitic remarks bucko! Grendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    “He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.”

    ― Friedrich Nietzsche
    "Causality is a thing."

    - literally everyone with a lick of sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    "Causality is a thing."

    - literally everyone with a lick of sense.
    Man has no why to live for, we are just lost in spite of all material convenience and ease. Might as well be the walking dead at this point. Survival ain't living.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Man has no why to live for, we are just lost in spite of all material convenience and ease. Might as well be the walking dead at this point. Survival ain't living.
    You don't enjoy surviving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    You don't enjoy surviving.
    I prefer a good hill do die on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @Subteigh, Does your Luther research include the Grzegorz Braun documentary? It's an eye-opener. Probably not the rosy picture you have.

    Did you learn about indulgences from a Catholic source, or from an anti-Catholic source? A Catechism is easy to get ahold of. Yes, there were abuses. Jesus had a Judas, and we have many. The Church continually needs reforms. Do you know what a Doctor of the Church is?
    He's not my Luther. He was still a Christian fundamentalist who had a nasty side, for example, being anti-Semitic, but the Catholic Church has made worse people saints.

    The indulgences were carried out by the papacy. Are you saying that God put these people in place?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    You wrote:



    I see.
    I don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Because this is what you stated it. I know why people don't conform - why would you conform when you don't believe? I wonder why people actually think it doesn't matter. But then, I can remember a time which i wrote about here when I thought it didn't matter. I thought i already knew all about it, and though i sensed I was looking for something, i was sure it wasn't that. (But it was.)
    Why would people want to join a cult?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    while it is true that reality as experienced by man is subjective (sense of time, space and so on) and the true nature of reality cannot be fully experienced or reasoned by primitive meat-vessels such as ourselves, reason still demands that objective reality exists outside of our subjective perception, so there are fundamental truths regardless of our inability to comprehend them.

    Morality independent of theology and metaphysics, based only in reason inevitably leads to the death of God. Once this occurs morality becomes vulnerable to criticism. Consequently secular rational morality is hollow, being a mere rigid command. One can't justify such a command as the ground upon which one tries to reason is like quicksand. Without an absolute basis for good and evil moral norms are whatever suit the individual for it's own advantage. Basically "you can do whatever, it does not matter as there is no absolute truth".. nihilism.

    Nihilism, this bourgeoise disease of the soul is what plagues people today, their lives misery in affluence, depression, lack of meaning and hope. We thought traditions chained us, we wished to be free.. little did we know the chains nourished us and without them we are lost and dying of thirst in the desert of absurdity.

    Everything is permitted. Man has failed to become God. Man is misery incarnate.

    The god of the Old Testament was a nihilist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Jehovah's Witness is a cult. You have been given a wrong idea about God. I am glad you got out of that. But seek God Himself. He says, "If you seek Me, you will find Me." That is the truth. And Unitarianism is not enough. Jesus says, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. No one comes to the Father but by me."

    I really respect that you live your life very morally. I have been bothered by something I said to you in chat, "I could never be Democrat". It is true, but, I hardly know you, and such a statement sounds judgmental, So I am sorry. I am sure you are Democrat for all good reasons. I said it because life is of first, prime importance, over everything. No other platform supersedes it. You cannot have any other thing without life. Abortion is an intrinsic evil in every circumstance. Biden, opposite, says he supports abortion in every circumstance. Even murdering the child who survives it! Our nation cannot elect a rabid pro-abortion president and have God's favor, which we cannot continue to exist without. [Fortunately, God knows we did not elect Biden, and that the government behind the armed wall-fence is illegitimate.]
    God in the bible killed millions of children and placed no value on fetuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDonkeyBallz View Post
    What about truth in religion?

    If the atheists are right, then we might as well lie, cheat, and steal to get what we want because this life is all there is, and there are no consequences in eternity.
    I fear my own conscience more than I fear God. Theists believe in God, and lie, cheat, and steal. God itself tells people to follow its commandments only to break them itself.

    From Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre.

    "Atheistic existentialism, which I represent, is more consistent. It states that if God does not exist, there is at least one being in whom existence precedes essence -a being whose existence comes before its essence, a being who exists before he can be defined by any concept of it. That being is man, or, as Heidegger put it, the human reality. What do we mean here by "existence precedes essence"? We mean that man first exists: he materializes in the world, encounters himself, and only afterward defines himself. If man as existentialists conceive of him cannot be defined, it is because to begin with he is nothing. He will not be anything until later, and then he will he what he makes of himself. Thus, there is no human nature since there is no God to conceive of it. Man is not only that which he conceives himself to be, but that which he wills himself to be, and since he conceives of himself only after he exists, just as he wills himself to be after being thrown into existence, man is nothing other than what he makes of himself. This is the first principle of existentialism." ~ Jean-Paul Sartre

    From The Ethics of Ambiguity by Simone de Beauvoir:

    "Before existence there is no more reason to exist than not to exist. The lack of existence can not be evaluated since it is the fact on the basis of which all evaluation is defined. It can not be compared to anything for there is nothing outside of it to serve as a term of comparison. This rejection of any extrinsic justification also confirm the rejection of an original pessimism which we posited at the beginning. Since it is unjustifiable from without, to declare from without that it is unjustifiable is not to condemn it. And the truth is that outside of existence there is nobody. Man exists. For him it is not a question of wondering whether his presence in the world is useful, whether life is worth the trouble of being lived. These questions make no sense. It is a matter of knowing whether he wants to live and under what conditions.

    But if man is free to define for himself the conditions of a life which is valid in his own eyes, can he not choose whatever he likes and act however he likes? Dostoevsky asserted, "If God does not exist, everything is permitted." Today's believers use this formula for their own advantage. To re-establish man at the heart of his destiny is, they claim, to repudiate all ethics. However, far from God's absence authorizing all license, the contrary is the case, because man is abandoned on the earth, because his acts are definitive, absolute engagements. He bears the responsibility for a world which is not the work of a strange power, but of himself, where his defeats are inscribed, and his victories as well. A God can pardon, efface, and compensate. But if God does not exist, man's faults are inexpiable. If it is claimed that, whatever the case may be, this earthly stake has no importance, this is precisely because one invokes that inhuman objectivity which we declined at the start. One can not start by saying that our earthly destiny has or has not importance, for it depends upon us to give it importance. It is up to man to make it important to be a man, and he alone can feel his success or failure. And if it is again said that nothing forces him to try to justify his being in this way, then one is playing upon the notion of freedom in a dishonest way. The believer is also free to sin. The divine law is imposed upon him only from the moment he decides to save his soul. In the Christian religion, though one speaks very little about them today, there are also the damned. Thus, on the earthly plane, a life which does not seek to ground itself will be a pure contingency. But it is permitted to wish to give itself a meaning and a truth, and it then meets rigorous demands within its own heart.

    However, even among the proponents of secular ethics, there are many who charge existentialism with offering no objective content to the moral act. It is said that this philosophy is subjective, even solipsistic. If he is once enclosed within himself, how can man get out? But there too we have a great deal of dishonesty. It is rather well known that the fact of being a subject is a universal fact and that the Cartesian cogito expresses both the most individual experience and the most objective truth. By affirming that the source of all values resides in the freedom of man, existentialism merely carries on the tradition of Kant, Fichte, and Hegel, who, in the words of Hegel himself, "have taken for their point of departure the principle according to which the essence of right and duty and the essence of the thinking and willing subject are absolutely identical." The idea that defines all humanism is that the world is not a given world, foreign to man, one to which he has to force himself to yield without. It is the world willed by man, insofar as his will expresses his genuine reality." ~ Simone de Beauvoir

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    @Eliza Thomason @DrDonkeyBallz
    If you believed that God told to you kill a child, would you do it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDonkeyBallz View Post
    On the positive side, Mother Teresa helped improve conditions in India by challenging the religious beliefs of many in the Hindu culture. The Hindu belief in karma and reincarnation leads many Hindus to ignore the cries of the suffering. Why? Because they believe that those who suffer deserve their plight for doing something wrong in a previous life. So, if you help suffering people, you are interfering with their karma.

    Mother Teresa taught Hindus in India the Christian principles of caring for the poor and suffering. Does that religious idea matter? Ask the millions whose lives she touched. Does the religious teaching of karma matter? Ask the millions still suffering.
    Suffering for Jesus

    Mother Teresa allowed suffering in her institutions with such depressing regularity one would assume she was sure suffering in the name of Jesus is a good thing. Teresa was not even sure God or Jesus exists.

    Mother Teresa is thoroughly saturated with a primitive fundamentalist religious worldview that sees pain, hardship, and suffering as ennobling experiences and a beautiful expression of affiliation with Jesus Christ and his ordeal on the cross. Hitchens reports that in a filmed interview Mother Teresa herself tells of a patient suffering unbearable pain from terminal cancer: "With a smile, Mother Teresa told the camera what she told the patient: 'You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you.'" Apparently unaware that the response of the sufferer was a put-down, she freely related it: "Then please tell him to stop kissing me."[13]
    Well-meaning people donate money to Mother Teresa's organisation and imagine that they are helping people. Few realise that donations sometimes help Mother Teresa's order of nuns to hurt people rather than help them. Hemant Mehta relates the following:[14]

    Over hundreds of hours of research, much of it cataloged in a book he published in 2003, Dr. Chatterjee said he found a “cult of suffering” in homes run by Mother Teresa’s organization, the Missionaries of Charity, with children tied to beds and little to comfort dying patients but aspirin. He and others said that Mother Teresa took her adherence to frugality and simplicity in her work to extremes, allowing practices like the reuse of hypodermic needles and tolerating primitive facilities that required patients to defecate in front of one another. “[Western audiences] don’t care about whether a third-world city’s dignity or prestige has been hampered by an Albanian nun,” he said. “So, obviously, they may be interested in the lies and the charlatans and the fraud that’s going on, but the whole story, they’re not interested in.”
    Donors expected what they gave would go to help poor people. It did not.[15]

    A widow, Sarnakar said she was admitted to Nirmal Hriday a decade ago with tuberculosis. Medical care was basic, and Sarnakar recalled that many in the women’s ward did not survive. “The ones who die, they die,” Sarnakar said. “But for those who can get better, the sisters are very good to us.” They die if they don’t get medical treatment. The nun could have spent the money to make that happen, but she gave it to the Vatican instead.[16]
    While Mother Teresa was a sadist, she wasn't as masochistic:

    [W]hen it came to her own death, Teresa refused to be treated in one of her own unsanitary facilities that glorified and promoted the suffering and pain of others. Researchers said that when it came to her own treatment, “she received it in a modern American hospital.” Apparently for Teresa suffering was beautiful only if it was someone else doing the suffering.[1]
    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDonkeyBallz View Post
    That sums up the problem in America today. Many of us are ignorant and apathetic about truth—but not when it comes to money, medicine, or the other tangible items. We care passionately about those things. But many people are ignorant and apathetic about truth in morality and religion. Are the people who have adopted the “whatever” theme of the culture right, or does truth in morality and religion really matter?

    It really matters. How do we know?

    First, even though people may claim that truth in morality doesn’t matter, they don’t really believe that when someone treats them immorally.

    For example, they might claim that lying isn’t wrong, but just watch how morally outraged they get when you lie to them (especially if it’s about their money!). We often hear that “it’s the economy, stupid!” But just think about how much better the economy would be if everyone told the truth. There would be no Enrons or Tycos. There would be no scandals or scams. There would be no burdensome government regulations. Of course the economy is important, but it’s directly affected by morality!

    Morality undergirds virtually everything we do. It not only affects us financially, but, in certain circumstances, it also affects us socially, psychologically, spiritually, and even physically.

    Second, truth in morality matters is because success in life is often dependent on the moral choices a person makes. These include choices regarding sex, marriage, children, drugs, money, business dealings, and so on. Some choices bring prosperity, others result in ruin.

    Third, all laws legislate morality. The only question is, “Whose morality will be legislated?” Think about it. Every law declares one behavior right and its opposite wrong—that’s morality. Whose morality should be legislated on issues such as abortion or euthanasia? These are issues that directly impact the lives and health of real people.

    What about truth in religion?

    If the atheists are right, then we might as well lie, cheat, and steal to get what we want because this life is all there is, and there are no consequences in eternity.

    In biology class, we essentially teach kids that there’s really no difference between any human being and a pig. After all, if we’re merely the product of blind naturalistic forces—if no deity created us with any special significance—then we are nothing more than pigs with big brains. Does this religious (atheistic) “truth” matter? It does when kids carry out its implications. Instead of good citizens who see people made in the image of God, we may potentially produce criminals who see no meaning or value in human life. Ideas have consequences.

    On the positive side, Mother Teresa helped improve conditions in India by challenging the religious beliefs of many in the Hindu culture. The Hindu belief in karma and reincarnation leads many Hindus to ignore the cries of the suffering. Why? Because they believe that those who suffer deserve their plight for doing something wrong in a previous life. So, if you help suffering people, you are interfering with their karma.

    Mother Teresa taught Hindus in India the Christian principles of caring for the poor and suffering. Does that religious idea matter? Ask the millions whose lives she touched. Does the religious teaching of karma matter? Ask the millions still suffering.

    The bottom line is this: regardless of what the real truth is concerning religion and morality, our lives are greatly affected by it today and perhaps even in eternity. Those who cavalierly say, “So what? Who cares about truth in morality and religion?” are ignoring reality and are blindly skating on thin ice. We owe it to ourselves and others to find the real truth, and then act on it.
    Some theists like you say that without belief in God, they would have no reason not to do "bad" things. I only hope that such theists don't lose their belief in God, for all our sakes. If you don't see doing a good thing as good because it is a good thing, then it suggests to me you are acting out of fear or selfishness. How can you claim that the "human being" is a higher animal if you are so base?

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    The theists here want me to believe in their God without evidence. Do they also want me to follow their moral code without evidence? If you say something is good, and don't quantify how it is good, how can you say that your moral code is any better than any other? Are you really concerned with truth?

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    @Eliza Thomason @DrDonkeyBallz
    If you believed that God told to you kill a child, would you do it?
    God did that once, with a much greater man. But He didn't do it. So He wouldn't do it. By the Grace of God I will do whatever He asked. By grace, I say, because I am not that great at listening to Him or obedience.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    God did that once, with a much greater man. But He didn't do it. So He wouldn't do it. By the Grace of God I will do whatever He asked. By grace, I say, because I am not that great at listening to Him or obedience.
    Abraham was willing to do it. So essentially, there is nothing so bad that you would refuse to do it.

    The only arbiter of what is or is not acceptable is "God", rather than whether the act is or is not acceptable to you.

    Unless you think you are infallible, you are leaving yourself at the prey of some "voice" you believe to be God. How exactly is that better than a person who only acts based on what they think is acceptable?

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    @Eliza Thomason, you have these quotes in your signature:
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    But it seems that the only fixed thing about your faith is your belief in God. Everything else is relative. You say it is wrong to kill children, but not only do you think it is more important to follow God than to refrain from killing children, you are willing to kill children.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    God in the bible killed millions of children and placed no value on fetuses.
    I don't know why that far out idea is so treasured by you, but I have heard you say it before more than once. It is a real Atheist kind of way you have, but you don't like that name. You use the Bible to accuse God, like the Great Accuser, of whom you have speak so highly of at times. You aren't the first to use scripture that way and you won't be the last. It is kind of boring (when it's not just offensive).

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    He's not my Luther. He was still a Christian fundamentalist who had a nasty side, for example, being anti-Semitic,
    He seems lots more yours than mine since you bring him up often and so favorably. At least you seem to think he was a cure for Catholicism. He wasn't. We have lots of Doctors of the Church for that (to cure the ongoing infections from the humans (from flawed to diabolical) running God's Holy Church).

    Yes, anti-Semitism. That was only ONE of his evil manifestations. There were many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    but the Catholic Church has made worse people saints..
    I know to whom you refer because you like keep bringing her up. But I am not interested in debating that because there are plenty of others out there who discuss your criticisms, so if you actually have an interest in hearing a balanced opposing view to yours, it is not hard to find.

    You seem to seek a perfection and lack of flaws in religious persons. If you truly seek perfection, Jesus is the one to look at. He knows you perfectly, and He loves you perfectly. Of you he says, "I thirst."


    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The indulgences were carried out by the papacy. Are you saying that God put these people in place?
    Popes aren't perfect. There have been bad ones. [The current one is an ongoing puzzle.] To learn more about indulgences, see the catechism. (I bought the 633 page Raccolta this year but I haven't read it yet.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Why would people want to join a cult?
    They join the cult because they don't know it as that; they are seeking God, and they hunger for knowledge of Him. They recognize the truths told to them in the cult, and the truths are precious gems. But they are bait. Because the evil one does not just lie, he uses the truth and adds just enough falsehood to infect the whole thing. But cult has thought ahead and has powerful and predictable kinds of things (marks of a cult) in place to or control and manipulate them people and discourage them from questioning their authority and keep them from leaving, so the members are "caught in". It is very hard to leave because it has been designed that way. To consider that you have lived a lie means entering the realm of cognitive dissidence, which is very painful.
    '
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    '


    ........................“Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee.”
    .................................................. .................................................. ......... - St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church

    .................................................. .............................................
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    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I don't know why that far out idea is so treasured by you, but I have heard you say it before more than once. It is a real Atheist kind of way you have, but you don't like that name. You use the Bible to accuse God, like the Great Accuser, of whom you have speak so highly of at times. You aren't the first to use scripture that way and you won't be the last. It is kind of boring (when it's not just offensive).
    It has been estimated that 45 million people were living on this planet around 3000 BC. The god of the bible if it existed killed many millions of people, including children. Satan in the bible only killed 10 people, and that was with God's permission.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    He seems lots more yours than mine since you bring him up often and so favorably. At least you seem to think he was a cure for Catholicism. He wasn't. We have lots of Doctors of the Church for that (to cure the ongoing infections from the humans (from flawed to diabolical) running God's Holy Church).

    Yes, anti-Semitism. That was only ONE of his evil manifestations. There were many.
    The Catholic Church at the time engaged in even worse anti-Semitism. It seems that you are struggling to come up with reasons to hate Luther - you only came up with that one when I prompted it. Which of Luther's Ninety-five Theses do you actually disagree with?

    Luther was a faithful Catholic, and would have remained so if the Pope had not have excommunicated him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I know to whom you refer because you like keep bringing her up. But I am not interested in debating that because there are plenty of others out there who discuss your criticisms, so if you actually have an interest in hearing a balanced opposing view to yours, it is not hard to find.
    I wasn't referring to "her". The Church has made even worse people saints than "her", I was just commenting generally on the many bad saints they have. I don't object so much to the people they made saints who didn't even exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    You seem to seek a perfection and lack of flaws in religious persons. If you truly seek perfection, Jesus is the one to look at. He knows you perfectly, and He loves you perfectly. Of you he says, "I thirst."
    No, it's the Church that seeks perfection. The New Testament actually says that all Christians are saints regardless of their sins, contrary to what Catholicism teaches. I just object when people are made out to be exemplary by being granted sainthood in a highly selective way.

    I see no convincing evidence that Jesus Christ actually existed. In any case, the Jesus of the New Testament was often very petty and vindictive, more concerned that people follow him than doing what is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Popes aren't perfect. There have been bad ones. [The current one is an ongoing puzzle.] To learn more about indulgences, see the catechism. (I bought the 633 page Raccolta this year but I haven't read it yet.)
    I know there have been many bad ones. The question is, Has there been any good ones?

    The Church sold indulgences in order to build St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican, rather than to use to help those in need. The first thing I remember reading about the current pope is that he refused to live in the papal palace unlike his predecessors. That's hardly going to help those in need though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    They join the cult because they don't know it as that; they are seeking God, and they hunger for knowledge of Him. They recognize the truths told to them in the cult, and the truths are precious gems. But they are bait. Because the evil one does not just lie, he uses the truth and adds just enough falsehood to infect the whole thing. But cult has thought ahead and has powerful and predictable kinds of things (marks of a cult) in place to or control and manipulate them people and discourage them from questioning their authority and keep them from leaving, so the members are "caught in". It is very hard to leave because it has been designed that way. To consider that you have lived a lie means entering the realm of cognitive dissidence, which is very painful.
    '
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    '


    ........................“Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee.”
    .................................................. .................................................. ......... - St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church

    .................................................. .............................................
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    I was refering to the Catholic Church as a cult, but you seemingly didn't recognise that. Yes, maybe you've entered the realm of cognitive dissidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    “He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.”

    ― Friedrich Nietzsche
    "why to live" doesn't need to be follow a subjective truth. Nietzsche basically told us to forget about the dead god and create our own (subjective) reason, our own (subjective) morality to live. He is Nihilism and Existentialism. (or from nihilism lead to existentialism)
    Last edited by Moharu; 02-20-2021 at 03:15 AM.

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    Re: Subteigh's above "anti-Mother Teresa" reposts from Irrational Wiki

    Atheists LOVE to vilify Mother Teresa. Somehow she gets under their skin. Why is that, really?

    For balance, some rationality on the topic:

    **************************************************

    "If you don't believe in God, it's hard to believe in good.
    The obsession some atheists have with Mother Teresa borders on the monomaniacal.

    Even when I was an atheist I thought it quite absurd whenever comfortable first-world atheists would viciously attack a woman who gave up everything to serve the poor and who lived in abject poverty herself....
    "


    Read the rest here: https://aleteia.org/2016/04/05/5-res...mother-teresa/

    *************************************************

    A personal testimony:

    How my loathing of Mother Teresa turned to admiration by Mari Marcel Thekaekara

    "I’m not enamoured with the idea of sainthood, but despite her faults Mother Teresa took dying people off the Kolkata streets. No one else does that..."

    Read the rest here: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-dying-kolkata

    ************************************************** *

    "The Left in general has opposed the sort of selfless charity practiced by Mother Teresa and her nuns, favoring government action that prohibits any religious emphasis.
    The Catholic idea of redemptive suffering is, of course, entirely out of bounds for Leftists..."


    More here: https://www.catholicleague.org/mothe...ritics-undone/
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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  23. #143
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Re: Subteigh's above "anti-Mother Teresa" reposts from Irrational Wiki

    Atheists LOVE to vilify Mother Teresa. Somehow she gets under their skin. Why is that, really?

    For balance, some rationality on the topic:

    **************************************************

    "If you don't believe in God, it's hard to believe in good.
    The obsession some atheists have with Mother Teresa borders on the monomaniacal.

    Even when I was an atheist I thought it quite absurd whenever comfortable first-world atheists would viciously attack a woman who gave up everything to serve the poor and who lived in abject poverty herself....
    "


    Read the rest here: https://aleteia.org/2016/04/05/5-res...mother-teresa/

    *************************************************

    A personal testimony:

    How my loathing of Mother Teresa turned to admiration by Mari Marcel Thekaekara

    "I’m not enamoured with the idea of sainthood, but despite her faults Mother Teresa took dying people off the Kolkata streets. No one else does that..."

    Read the rest here: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-dying-kolkata

    ************************************************** *

    "The Left in general has opposed the sort of selfless charity practiced by Mother Teresa and her nuns, favoring government action that prohibits any religious emphasis.
    The Catholic idea of redemptive suffering is, of course, entirely out of bounds for Leftists..."


    More here: https://www.catholicleague.org/mothe...ritics-undone/
    Do you have any evidence that Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu was poor and did not use donations intended to help children to fund the Catholic Church and for own private use? People died because of the way she treated them.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    ...Are you really concerned with truth?
    Are you? I truly do not think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The Catholic Church at the time engaged in even worse anti-Semitism.
    No, seriously? Wow. I thought the Catholic Church was always perfect all the time, and in all ways. Huh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    It seems that you are struggling to come up with reasons to hate Luther - you only came up with that one when I prompted it. Which of Luther's Ninety-five Theses do you actually disagree with?
    You already asked; I replied. post #86, here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...13#post1433013

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Luther was a faithful Catholic, and would have remained so if the Pope had not have excommunicated him.
    You are ill-informed. If you want to discuss Luther with me, watch the documentary in the above post link, first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    No, it's the Church that seeks perfection. The New Testament actually says that all Christians are saints regardless of their sins, contrary to what Catholicism teaches.
    You are misinformed. Because truth disinterests you. But bearing false witness doesn't bother you. Not good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I was referring to the Catholic Church as a cult, but you seemingly didn't recognise that. Yes, maybe you've entered the realm of cognitive dissidence.
    Learn the difference between a cult and a religion.


    .................................................. ..........................................
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


  25. #145
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default St. Augustine

    “To fall in love with God is the greatest romance; to seek him the greatest adventure; to find him, the greatest human achievement.”
    .................................................. .................................................. .......................... -- Saint Augustine



    .................................................. ..............................
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


  26. #146
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Are you?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I truly do not think so.
    I don't know if you are liable to think, and you don't seem interested in truth. You certainly don't like to provide evidence for your claims - you just assert how you think things ought to be rather than how they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    No, seriously? Wow. I thought the Catholic Church was always perfect all the time, and in all ways. Huh.
    If the Catholic Church is correct now, then it has been significantly wrong for most of its history on things like slavery, science, feudalism, theology etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    You already asked; I replied. post #86, here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...13#post1433013
    Ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    You are ill-informed. If you want to discuss Luther with me, watch the documentary in the above post link, first.
    Why not explain in a short paragraph why you object to Luther?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    You are misinformed. Because truth disinterests you. But bearing false witness doesn't bother you. Not good.
    You are ignorant of the bible and would sooner refer me to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (which is longer than the bible itself, which is telling) and a documentary than read it. The New Testament says that all Christians are saints - it seems you boats of having a library of religious books but are ignorant of the central book of your faith - the bible, not the Catechism: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1325876

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Learn the difference between a cult and a religion.
    cult (plural cults)

    1) (chiefly derogatory) A group, sect or movement following an unorthodox religious or philosophical system of beliefs, especially one in which members remove and exclude themselves from greater society, including family members not part of the cult, and show extreme devotion to a charismatic leader.

    Two former cult members explain the difficulties they had extricating themselves from it.

    2)Devotion to a saint.

    the cult of Mary

    3) The veneration and religious rites given to a deity, esp. in a historical polytheistic context.

    the cult of Apollo

    4) A religion that evolved out of another religion but has become a different religion through developing a radically different theology.

    5) (informal) A group of people having an obsession with or intense admiration for a particular activity, idea, person or thing.

    the heavy metal cult
    the cult of basketball
    Christianity has "Jesus Christ" as its head (or the Pope according to some Catholics), who despite being dead is venerated. That sounds like a cult to me. Catholicism also engaged in the veneration of saints and shrines and other objects such as rosaries. Christianity also evolved out of another religion (Judaism), and Catholicism evolved out of Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    .................................................. ..........................................
    You are engaging in wishful thinking. I don't believe in "God" because the evidence is insufficient to show it exists.

    Why don't you believe in the Muslim God? Is it because you have some reason to wish it does not exist? Doesn't that mean you think the Muslim God exists?

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    Default St. Augustine

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    .................................................. .................................................. ...................
    .

    .................................................. ..........................St. Augustine at the Seashore: Story here: https://illustratedprayer.com/2017/0...tine-seashore/
    .


    .
    .................................................. ...................................
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


  28. #148
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default St. Augustine Timeless quotes

    So appropriate for our times:

    .................................................. ............."In the absence of justice, what is sovereignty but organized robbery?"

    ................................“Nothing, therefore, happens unless the Omnipotent wills it to happen. He either permits it to happen, or He brings it about Himself.”

    “Hope has two beautiful daughters; their names are Anger and Courage. Anger at the way things are, and Courage to see that they do not remain as they are.”


    .................................................. ...................................
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


  29. #149
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    So appropriate for our times:

    .................................................. ............."In the absence of justice, what is sovereignty but organized robbery?"

    ................................“Nothing, therefore, happens unless the Omnipotent wills it to happen. He either permits it to happen, or He brings it about Himself.”

    “Hope has two beautiful daughters; their names are Anger and Courage. Anger at the way things are, and Courage to see that they do not remain as they are.”


    .................................................. ...................................
    You say you're interested in truth, but you provide no evidence.

    A being cannot know it is omnipotent.

  30. #150
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    ................................................"The truth is like a lion; you don’t have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."



    .................................................. ..............
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  31. #151
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Why don't you believe in the Muslim God?
    Jesus said: "I am the Light, the Truth and the Way. No man comes to the Father but by me."
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  32. #152
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    ................................................"The truth is like a lion; you don’t have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."



    .................................................. ..............
    Where is "God" exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Jesus said: "I am the Light, the Truth and the Way. No man comes to the Father but by me."
    You quote that, and yet you often speak of praying to Mary.

    You quoted Augustine approvingly - if you agree with it, then the reason you don't believe in the Muslim God is because you wish to deny it exists.

    The quote ascribed to Jesus that you used here doesn't even justify belief in the Christian God.

  34. #154
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    ...............................He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent. - Saint Augustine




    ................................................
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  35. #155
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    ...............................He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent. - Saint Augustine




    ................................................
    Evidence is not like that. I don't think you're interested in truth at all.

    If god was interesting in revealing its truth, it is doing a very bad job.

  36. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    “To fall in love with God is the greatest romance; to seek him the greatest adventure; to find him, the greatest human achievement.”
    .................................................. .................................................. .......................... -- Saint Augustine



    .................................................. ..............................
    How can you find something that is not a natural phenomenon?

    In science, it is considered wrong to assume a position is true before you have evidence to support it.

  37. #157
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    You quote that, and yet you often speak of praying to Mary.

    You quoted Augustine approvingly - if you agree with it, then the reason you don't believe in the Muslim God is because you wish to deny it exists.

    The quote ascribed to Jesus that you used here doesn't even justify belief in the Christian God.
    .................................................. ....................Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. No man comes to the Father but by me".

    .................................................. ...............Jesus said it. Jesus is Lord, and He said that. I believe. You will have to talk to Muslims about their Muslim God.

    .................................................. ............................................

    Mary is the Mother of the Body of Christ Jesus, who is our, and her, Lord and Savior. Also in another sense Christians also are the Body of Christ. We, the Body of Christ, just like Jesus our Lord, have not only a Heavenly Father but ALSO a (now) Heavenly Mother. Like a real family. One divine parent, one human parent. We know this is the truth because the Pillar and Foundation of Truth tells us so. (Great truths call for contemplation. See the link in that post with the seashell, the story linked about St. Augustine at the beach).

    Jesus could have come to earth any way He wanted. He chose to come through Mary. Also, Mary, then, is a natural, direct way have Jesus born in our hearts. See the art of Mary all these centuries. She points to Jesus. Always to Jesus.

    We please Our Lord greatly when we go to His mother, Help of Christians, for help. God tells us that "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much." No one is more righteous than Mary, Full of Grace. Full means so full there is no room for more. Her prayers are most efficacious!

    Mary is the Daughter of the Father, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and Mother of the Son. St. Alphonse Liguori tells us that the Holy Trinity love her so much that all she has to do is sigh, and they rush to do her bidding.

    So I have told you some of the glories of Mary. The are great truths, like precious gems. I have taken my time with it, and it is late. My husband said, before he went to bed while I was still typing, when I told him whom I was writing to on the forum, "You are throwing your pearls to swine"... Oh well. At least I feel wonderful to have thought again of these pearls of Mary, Our Mother.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  38. #158
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    .................................................. ....................Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. No man comes to the Father but by me".

    .................................................. ...............Jesus said it. Jesus is Lord, and He said that. I believe. You will have to talk to Muslims about their Muslim God.
    How do you know Jesus said it? How do you know that the bible is more true than the quran?

    You don't follow most gods. If Augustine is correct, that is because you wish them not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    .................................................. ............................................

    Mary is the Mother of the Body of Christ Jesus, who is our, and her, Lord and Savior. Also in another sense Christians also are the Body of Christ. We, the Body of Christ, just like Jesus our Lord, have not only a Heavenly Father but ALSO a (now) Heavenly Mother. Like a real family. One divine parent, one human parent. We know this is the truth because the Pillar and Foundation of Truth tells us so. (Great truths call for contemplation. See the link in that post with the seashell, the story linked about St. Augustine at the beach).

    Jesus could have come to earth any way He wanted. He chose to come through Mary. Also, Mary, then, is a natural, direct way have Jesus born in our hearts. See the art of Mary all these centuries. She points to Jesus. Always to Jesus.

    We please Our Lord greatly when we go to His mother, Help of Christians, for help. God tells us that "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much." No one is more righteous than Mary, Full of Grace. Full means so full there is no room for more. Her prayers are most efficacious!

    Mary is the Daughter of the Father, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and Mother of the Son. St. Alphonse Liguori tells us that the Holy Trinity love her so much that all she has to do is sigh, and they rush to do her bidding.

    So I have told you some of the glories of Mary. The are great truths, like precious gems. I have taken my time with it, and it is late. My husband said, before he went to bed while I was still typing, when I told him whom I was writing to on the forum, "You are throwing your pearls to swine"... Oh well. At least I feel wonderful to have thought again of these pearls of Mary, Our Mother.
    Jesus in the New Testament criticised those who wanted evidence. If you are interested in truth, then don't be like that. Present the evidence rather than quotes from some book or pointing to some artwork. The Marian cult is an aspect of Catholicism and deviates from your point about finding "God".

    I suggest if you are interested in helping people find truth that you don't go round insulting them. It seems you do this because you are unable to produce evidence.

  39. #159

  40. #160
    that's alright I like the way it burnz DrDonkeyBallz's Avatar
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    What a psychopath. Sick, really

    Going after innocent IEEs like Eliza Thomason
    Last edited by DrDonkeyBallz; 02-20-2021 at 09:17 AM.
    Cybergang bullying is real. Don't let it happen to u. PM me for advice and we can destroy these nerds together forever



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