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Thread: Religion is Everything

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    Actually, yes. What is the end of the plan? Death. I would try, but I don't care enough to seriously make an attempt. It would require basically my entire life as I know it to end. And it's a struggle in vain. Eventually all life will end. All I can do is extend the time.

    By the way, if you want a superman, become a superman.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    @End



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    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    What a bullshit quote. Some people worship literally nothing and literally see the positive and negative sides to almost everything because almost everything is like that because it's called being realistic. Day turns into night and night turns back into day again... why would I worship one over the other?

    To me nothing is sacred. Anything sacred is simply trying to be pretentious, arrogant and 'above it all', and the GLBT community traditionally rips to shreds anything trying to be uppity like that. It's just how we are. If you can't see the inherent shittiness in everything, even your God, I-I just don't think that's wise.

    Why do people think they are so special or 'good' that they deserve Heaven anyway? So you saved all those people for just some eternal reward and fear of being punished- not really any instrinstic motivation that it was the 'right' thing to do? Then they tell me they know they are filthy sinners and deserving of eternal torment- and so it seems like this self-hating thing. If you really knew that and accepted that, you wouldn't have so much false hope that you were going to the Good Place instead.

    This is beyond religious people being meanies to me really- the above post was just incredibly stupid and illogical to me- but because I'm not a T type, maybe I'm not conveying that as well as they could.

    I don't mean any disrespect or anything- I mean Subt and I have our spats in the past and he's really Fi and British compared to me but I really do agree with the old chap in this thread...

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    Nothing happens when we die. But that's the beauty of it. That bad Angel episode was wrong. Nothing is not 'the scariest thing there is.' Anybody who says that is an idiot who lacks imagination. Nothing is just nothing. It should be a relief. There is your Heaven. A person should be thankful and pray when they get 'nothing' instead of being all bitter and victim-y about it. Nothing is scapegoated and misunderstood. Nothing... is beautiful , the empty space that lets everything else be.

    Let's be honest, a Delta picnic in the sky would get old and boring fast- even for Deltas... I don't want to stay in some Beta place either all the time really. I don't get it. Heaven doesn't have enough bad or conflict stuff happen to make the organisms in its environment naturally grow - so how can people get stronger?

    I thank all my bullies and haters with this song:


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    To say I'm going to worship myself because I don't worship God is like saying I'm going to eat at McDonald's because I'm not eating at Wendy's that day.

    Maybe I'm just not eating fast food period. Or eating at all because I'm dead. And that's wonderfully okay.

    "but what about all the really evil and immoral people- they're just going to get away with it?"

    Not exactly- because they're all going to die too and I think doing yucky things to others like that corrupts oneself anyway. Or you get annoyed and become unhappy because it didn't really make you feel like a God like you thought it would. Most of the people I met that were shitty kinda had bad external envrionments anyway- and were grossly unhappy with themselves. Hurt people hurt people, you know? lol. It's some projection we do with the 'evil must be destroyed' thing - some ultimate villain we like to see conquered, as being evil is seen as something people 'enjoy doing' or like to do- because pure evil, there's a freedom in that. But real people becoming evil is often more complicated than that mustache-twirly thing, much more ambiguous.

  6. #206
    Eldritch Abomination shotgunfingers's Avatar
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    I want to live forever, eternal torment, eternal experience.. infinite lifetimes of pain and suffering


  7. #207
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @End



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    You still haven't provided an unique property of "God" that is observable, nevermind produced any direct evidence that "God" exists.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Jordon Peterson's reply to, "Do you believe in God?"

    "I act as if God exists, and I am terrified he might."

    Admirable answer from a true intellectual whose piercing candidness I enjoy.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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  9. #209
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Jordon Peterson's reply to, "Do you believe in God?"

    "I act as if God exists, and I am terrified he might."

    Admirable answer from a true intellectual whose piercing candidness I enjoy.
    That's pathetic. A person should fear their own conscience more than they fear punishment from someone else.

    To me, there is nothing admirable about followers of the Abrahamic God being willing to kill children if they believed God told them to. Such people have no fixed principles other than obeying a third party they believe to be God, and yet I never seem to get any piercing candidness from them about how they know a third party is God, rather than say Satan.


  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
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    Archbishop Fulton Sheen was one of the greatest Evangelists of the modern era with a talent for oratory and logic that comes but once an entire generation. I'd dare any staunch atheist or other hater/denier of Christ to listen to a few of his lectures or watch a few archived episodes of his TV show and still maintain us Catholics are stupid or insane. Hell, he even converted more than a few absolutely rabid Commies to Christ and the Church in his life. I hope he gets canonized someday.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    You still haven't provided an unique property of "God" that is observable, nevermind produced any direct evidence that "God" exists.
    If you're speaking of strictly "materialistic" evidence than you ain't gonna find any and that's what you're arguing for. You essentially want me and @Eliza Thomason to produce an audio and video recording of the exchange between Moses and God on Mt. Sinai when he received the Ten Commandments or the Lance of Longinus along with the fully intact true Cross upon which he was crucified (complete with a metaphorical "Certificate of Authenticity" signed by the Almighty himself to boot).

    I'd argue, and indeed have argued, that the evidence is irrefutable from a spiritual and societal angle. It is manifestly evident that mankind has a religious impulse. We all have a need to "worship" something. I should make a sign so I can tap it every time this pops up. Everyone has a God. Yes, that includes you, Atheists, and everyone else who presumes themselves "beyond" such "short sighted" or "Primitive superstitions" or whatever denigrating term they have for religious faith.

    Also, the entirety of Western Civilization was founded upon the ethical system put forth by Christianity. Our stories reflect it. Our laws and traditions reflect it. Hell, even its enemies reflect it as they profess a moral system that's a perverse heretical mockery/inversion of it. They replace joy with misery and tell us the misery is joy. They tell us we'll be happier without Christ, God, and all he represents. You should try praying sometime. Earnestly praying, not just doing it as a sarcastic farce.

    Pray the rosary, go to a mass. You have filled a God shaped hole in your heart with something else that does not belong there. Try filing it with with what truly belongs there. I guarantee you'll be far happier and more fulfilled than you are now.

  11. #211
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    If you're speaking of strictly "materialistic" evidence than you ain't gonna find any and that's what you're arguing for. You essentially want me and @Eliza Thomason to produce an audio and video recording of the exchange between Moses and God on Mt. Sinai when he received the Ten Commandments or the Lance of Longinus along with the fully intact true Cross upon which he was crucified (complete with a metaphorical "Certificate of Authenticity" signed by the Almighty himself to boot).

    I'd argue, and indeed have argued, that the evidence is irrefutable from a spiritual and societal angle. It is manifestly evident that mankind has a religious impulse. We all have a need to "worship" something. I should make a sign so I can tap it every time this pops up. Everyone has a God. Yes, that includes you, Atheists, and everyone else who presumes themselves "beyond" such "short sighted" or "Primitive superstitions" or whatever denigrating term they have for religious faith.

    Also, the entirety of Western Civilization was founded upon the ethical system put forth by Christianity. Our stories reflect it. Our laws and traditions reflect it. Hell, even its enemies reflect it as they profess a moral system that's a perverse heretical mockery/inversion of it. They replace joy with misery and tell us the misery is joy. They tell us we'll be happier without Christ, God, and all he represents. You should try praying sometime. Earnestly praying, not just doing it as a sarcastic farce.

    Pray the rosary, go to a mass. You have filled a God shaped hole in your heart with something else that does not belong there. Try filing it with with what truly belongs there. I guarantee you'll be far happier and more fulfilled than you are now.
    I don't see how an audio and video recording would prove your God, given that you cannot give an unique observable property of your God.

    I doubt you could even provide primary evidence of "Jesus Christ" that could be independently verified.

    The Lance of Longinus and the rosary are not biblical, so I doubt they are essential to the core of Christian religion.

    I am doubtful that Christianity created any new "ethical" principles that inspired laws in "Western Civilization" save for laws aimed at protecting Christianity. I do know that Christian dogma and literature was and is used to condone torture and slavery, practices that I personally object to because I see them as harmful and miserable.

    You cannot provide evidence of your own God, so I am even more doubtful that you can provide evidence of mine considering that I don't believe in any gods.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Archbishop Fulton Sheen was one of the greatest Evangelists of the modern era with a talent for oratory and logic that comes but once an entire generation. I'd dare any staunch atheist or other hater/denier of Christ to listen to a few of his lectures or watch a few archived episodes of his TV show and still maintain us Catholics are stupid or insane. Hell, he even converted more than a few absolutely rabid Commies to Christ and the Church in his life. I hope he gets canonized someday.
    Not anytime soon, I don't think. Not in these times, which are said to be worse than the days before the Flood. Because while Jesus had a Judas, we, in these times, have so many, many Judases. And the good man has sworn enemies, like guffawing Dolan and his gaggle of goons. So I don't expect canonization until God Himself brings supernatural conversions to the grossly infiltrated hierarchy of His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which He promised He would be with until the end of time. I believe Him. And He said the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Amen.

    Yes, so many - believers and non, Catholic and Protestant - were, and continue to be, very moved by the words of this good, intelligent and supernaturally wise man of God. My ESI Mom was a fan of Fulton J. Sheen, in spite of (subtlety) imparting to me the firm anti-Catholic bias she was raised with. People love Sheen because they long in their heart for God, and they hunger and thirst for truth and goodness, and they recognize a fellow pilgrim in Sheen, wherever they are on that walk to God.

    But also there those who love their own thought more than any pursuit of goodness and truth, and they not only refuse to know or to acknowledge their own Maker, the God of Goodness and Truth, but they spew out their vain hate for Him. Their delight is in offending those who love God. To deliver stings to believers with blaspheme is their aim. How pathetic. What fools these proud persons are. We can only pray for them. And I don't want anything to do with that kind of talk. : (
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 03-12-2021 at 11:18 PM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  13. #213
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Nothing happens when we die. But that's the beauty of it.

    That bad Angel episode was wrong. Nothing is not 'the scariest thing there is.' Anybody who says that is an idiot who lacks imagination. Nothing is just nothing. It should be a relief. There is your Heaven. A person should be thankful and pray when they get 'nothing' instead of being all bitter and victim-y about it. Nothing is scapegoated and misunderstood. Nothing... is beautiful , the empty space that lets everything else be.
    Yes, for sure, "Nothing" is not the scariest place. Hell is.

    ["Nothing comes from nothing... nothing ever could..."]


    There is incentive to believe life ends in "nothing", to be sure. "Nothing" is a much more desirable belief than hell.

    [Hell: a place that does not come from nothing].

    There is a popular magical thinking these days that says we can choose what we prefer to believe, and by believing it, we create our own reality.

    .................................................. .............


    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Let's be honest, a Delta picnic in the sky would get old and boring fast- even for Deltas... I don't want to stay in some Beta place either all the time really. I don't get it.
    Maybe you don't want to get it? Because this doesn't make sense. Why would the God who made the four Quadras make Heaven be like a picnic of only one of those Quadras? (Which happens to be the picnic you would least enjoy, too.) And since we on earth enjoy not only our on Quadra, but the other three (in the right dose), what would be the reason for Heaven being less heavenly than earth in that regard?

    It doesn't look like you have dedicated a great deal of contemplation to this this view of Heaven you are sharing.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Heaven doesn't have enough bad or conflict stuff happen to make the organisms in its environment naturally grow - so how can people get stronger?
    Our only experience of goodness on earth is here on earth, that place mixed with bad and good, so it's natural to see it in that regard. But after death, it splits eternally to ALL good, or ALL bad. No more both.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    To say I'm going to worship myself because I don't worship God is like saying I'm going to eat at McDonald's because I'm not eating at Wendy's that day.
    We are created to worship. So someone in your life gets homage. If not God, then: nine times out of ten, it's you.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    ... "but what about all the really evil and immoral people- they're just going to get away with it?"
    Not exactly- because they're all going to die too and I think doing yucky things to others like that corrupts oneself anyway.
    That you ask that question, to me, reveals the sacred truth that God has written His law on every heart. And that we have an innate belief in the existence of justice. That we know that in the end, justice should prevail.


    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Or you get annoyed and become unhappy because it didn't really make you feel like a God like you thought it would. Most of the people I met that were shitty kinda had bad external environments anyway- and were grossly unhappy with themselves. Hurt people hurt people, you know? lol.
    God knows that, and only He knows our whole heart and our whole lives and every thought and motivation we have ever had. And He knows which acts we are responsible for and exactly to what extent. Yes, hurt people hurt people, and Gods wrath on those who lead the least ones astray we are assured is very, very great. He tells us not to judge, because only He, the perfect omniscient one, can judge hearts. (Of course we can and should judge an act itself).


    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    It's some projection we do with the 'evil must be destroyed' thing - some ultimate villain we like to see conquered, as being evil is seen as something people 'enjoy doing' or like to do- because pure evil, there's a freedom in that..
    Many, many, many people have reported countless and detailed visions of Hell, and in every case, it is clear it is PURE evil there, and it is clear there is NO freedom in it. The freedom, the choice, for one's eternity, is now on earth, only. And only here on earth, where there exists both good and evil (and good people to abuse) can an illusion exist that there is some sort of freedom in evil (when in fact it is a slavery). As soon as you die, that illusion dissipates forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    But real people becoming evil is often more complicated than that mustache-twirly thing, much more ambiguous.
    And not uncommon.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I don't see how an audio and video recording would prove your God, given that you cannot give an unique observable property of your God.

    I doubt you could even provide primary evidence of "Jesus Christ" that could be independently verified.

    The Lance of Longinus and the rosary are not biblical, so I doubt they are essential to the core of Christian religion.

    I am doubtful that Christianity created any new "ethical" principles that inspired laws in "Western Civilization" save for laws aimed at protecting Christianity. I do know that Christian dogma and literature was and is used to condone torture and slavery, practices that I personally object to because I see them as harmful and miserable.

    You cannot provide evidence of your own God, so I am even more doubtful that you can provide evidence of mine considering that I don't believe in any gods.
    Ok, first off, pretty much everyone here and everywhere with half a brain cell to their name admits that that the "Jesus doesn't exist within the historical record" argument is total BS. You're arguing that here so I call BS and dare you to pass a witch test if only to see if I'm right about this sort of thing.

    He/Jesus existed. Deny his divinity all you want, but that such a figure existed is beyond dispute to anyone who isn't demonically obsessed/possessed and even if you are you'll still admit it in the end.

    As I am very fond of quoting Fulton Sheen and pretty much anyone who accepts the truth of this matter: Even the Devil Believes!

    Swallow that fact and its full implications, than get back to me in regards to your "god". As you are an ardent atheist answer me this: What do you value most above and beyond thine own supposed freedom? I can tell you what you worship if you give me that answer. IF you give me an honest answer that is. I seek the chain that binds you to this world so that I may shatter it .


    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Not anytime soon, I don't think. Not in these times, which are said to be worse than the days before the Flood. Because while Jesus had a Judas, we, in these times, have so many, many Judases. And the good man has sworn enemies, like guffawing Dolan and his gaggle of goons. So I don't expect canonization until God Himself brings supernatural conversions to the grossly infiltrated hierarchy of His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which He promised He would be with until the end of time. I believe Him. And He said the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Amen.

    Yes, so many - believers and non, Catholic and Protestant - were, and continue to be, very moved by the words of this good, intelligent and supernaturally wise man of God. My ESI Mom was a fan of Fulton J. Sheen, in spite of (subtlety) imparting to me the firm anti-Catholic bias she was raised with. People love Sheen because they long in their heart for God, and they hunger and thirst for truth and goodness, and they recognize a fellow pilgrim in Sheen, wherever they are on that walk to God.

    But also there those who love their own thought more than any pursuit of goodness and truth, and they not only refuse to know or to acknowledge their own Maker, the God of Goodness and Truth, but they spew out their vain hate for Him. Their delight is in offending those who love God. To deliver stings to believers with blaspheme is their aim. How pathetic. What fools these proud persons are. We can only pray for them. And I don't want anything to do with that kind of talk. : (
    Depends on the perspective. We have a collective knowledge of all the aspects of sin such that we have no real excuse if we sin. Though, from that angle, the Devil had a much easier time deceiving and corrupting mankind.

    Degeneracy is more accessible than ever by even the most innocent and unsuspecting, but so is the holy word...

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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Ok, first off, pretty much everyone here and everywhere with half a brain cell to their name admits that that the "Jesus doesn't exist within the historical record" argument is total BS. You're arguing that here so I call BS and dare you to pass a witch test if only to see if I'm right about this sort of thing.

    He/Jesus existed. Deny his divinity all you want, but that such a figure existed is beyond dispute to anyone who isn't demonically obsessed/possessed and even if you are you'll still admit it in the end.
    The Jews wanted their Messiah to exist, so all references to a historical Messiah should be taken with a pinch of salt. As it is, the earliest records to a Jesus existed prior to the first century AD.

    The Christians tell us that Jesus' birth was so important that it was prophesied and that wise men a large distance away were told about it. But the Christians cannot tell us what year this happened in, nevermind the day.

    The Christians tell us that Jesus' death and resurrection were so important that it was prophesied. But the Christians cannot tell us what year these events happened in, nevermind the day.

    For these reasons, Jesus Christ has all the hallmarks of a myth rather than a person who actually existed.

    You wouldn't believe the supernatural claims of other religions. So why would you expect me to believe the supposed historical (not supernatural) details of Jesus' life in the New Testament? There isn't any contemporary primary historical sources of Jesus' life.

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    As I am very fond of quoting Fulton Sheen and pretty much anyone who accepts the truth of this matter: Even the Devil Believes!

    Swallow that fact and its full implications, than get back to me in regards to your "god". As you are an ardent atheist answer me this: What do you value most above and beyond thine own supposed freedom? I can tell you what you worship if you give me that answer. IF you give me an honest answer that is. I seek the chain that binds you to this world so that I may shatter it .
    If the Devil of scripture exists, then it would be one of the most likely figures to believe, so I don't find that remarkable. But you have provided no proof of the Devil either.

    Supposedly, the Devil knows that "God" exists and will defeat it, but still disobeys. It does not say much about "God" that it would create such a being, aside from dawdles to prevent a supposed evil. "God" in the Bible kills more than 25 million people, the Devil only kills 10, and that was with "God"'s permission. If the Devil is all about deceit, then "God" must be the real Devil, for making people think that it is acceptable to allow evil it could prevent.

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Depends on the perspective. We have a collective knowledge of all the aspects of sin such that we have no real excuse if we sin. Though, from that angle, the Devil had a much easier time deceiving and corrupting mankind.

    Degeneracy is more accessible than ever by even the most innocent and unsuspecting, but so is the holy word...
    For me, if sin exists, then the greatest sin is knowingly allowing evil to happen that you prevent. That would make the "God" of the Bible the greatest sinner.

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    idiot sandwich aixelsyd's Avatar
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    Well, God is everything and with everyone. Alternatively, the universe is everything and consists of everyone. God, the Tao, Brahma, the one infinite Creator: It's really all the same. Personally, I subscribe to the Law of One.

    I am Ra. Consider, if you will, that the universe is infinite. This has yet to be proven or disproven, but we can assure you that there is no end to your selves, your understanding, what you would call your journey of seeking, or your perceptions of the creation.

    That which is infinite cannot be many, for many-ness is a finite concept. To have infinity you must identify or define that infinity as unity; otherwise, the term does not have any referent or meaning. In an Infinite Creator there is only unity. You have seen simple examples of unity. You have seen the prism which shows all colors stemming from the sunlight. This is a simplistic example of unity.

    In truth there is no right or wrong. There is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One.
    https://www.lawofone.info/

    The Law of One Ra Materials and A Course in Miracles break things down in ways with better clarity than older scriptures which are more easily twisted to fit people's agendas.

    Admittedly, I do enjoy the Bible, the Dhammapada, and the Tao teh Ching in moderation.

    That said, I find the wrangling of whether God is real or not to be silly. The bigger question lies in the nature of consciousness and if consciousness is experienced at an atomic level. If so, the very elements possess consciousness though self-awareness is a different matter (pun intended).

    According to the Law of One and many other philosophies of a mystical nature, all things share in consciousness that flows from a singular source. However, self-awareness appears to be most consistent with the human experience, not to say it is limited to the human experience. Nonetheless, the idea is that all things are subject to evolution that has neither beginning nor end. Perhaps we are expressions of the Creator who wants to know itself better and through all, it knows and is ever knowing its limitless capabilities.

    I think the Ra Materials puts it concisely as:
    "The heart of the discipline of the personality is threefold. One, know yourself. Two, accept yourself. Three, become the Creator."

    That's really it. It's not about being right or wrong, good or bad. It's about authenticity.
    Service to self is an equally valid path as is service to others; the former just requires a lot more commitment because it's easier and more "natural" to do good. The issue arises with apathy -- stradling the fence. But even then, Ra states that "there are no mistakes."

    So it may be most profitable, in my view, to be yourself and have faith. Love without fear and be free to live your life and hopefully enjoy it.

    To quote St. Paul, "and these three remain: faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love."
    Last edited by aixelsyd; 03-14-2021 at 02:00 PM.

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    It is hard to fathom, because religion, or God, is everything
    You cannot expect religion to be everything for everybody. We all have different lives to live and our perceptions are different. It doesn't matter whether God or not exists. Making Him a priority is outside of it.

    Besides, spirituality will still be a part of human life, but religion such as Christianity just doesn't have a place in the modern world. Because of its own wickedness and absurdity, the walls are slowly closing in on them.
    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outlier View Post
    You would be inaccurate. Also, I am mine own redeemer.
    Than you can either pass a witch test in absolute jest or you prove my points for me demon. I wish I was engaging in hyperbole but the more I try in that field the more I find I'm not trying hard enough!

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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    You cannot expect religion to be everything for everybody. We all have different lives to live and our perceptions are different. It doesn't matter whether God or not exists. Making Him a priority is outside of it.

    Besides, spirituality will still be a part of human life, but religion such as Christianity just doesn't have a place in the modern world. Because of its own wickedness and absurdity, the walls are slowly closing in on them.
    Sounds like you have an answer to that problem. Pray tell, what "religion" do you think can and should replace Christianity? I am curious. I am quite sure it's pretty damned demonic but hey, surprise me .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    For me, if sin exists, then the greatest sin is knowingly allowing evil to happen that you prevent. That would make the "God" of the Bible the greatest sinner.
    I've said it before but I'll say it again. God allows evil to exist so that he may bring about even greater goods in spite of it. Again I point to the greatest example of this, the Crucifixion. He died in a most horrible way, but through that death he brought about the salvation of all (if only the likes of you and others would accept that act of unmitigated mercy).

    I even had a kind of mini epiphany shortly ago. I thought of how many billions of souls are almost assuredly lost to hell given the state of the modern world. However, while the devil has his hour, God has his day. If mankind does make it unto the stars by then the Great Commission will have almost certainly have been fulfilled...

    What is a few billion lives on this limited Earth in comparison to the untold trillions upon unknown billions of worlds whom will all confess with joy that Jesus is the lord? Hell, even the "aliens" are not exempt from his salvation. Think on that a bit will ya...

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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I've said it before but I'll say it again. God allows evil to exist so that he may bring about even greater goods in spite of it. Again I point to the greatest example of this, the Crucifixion. He died in a most horrible way, but through that death he brought about the salvation of all (if only the likes of you and others would accept that act of unmitigated mercy).

    I even had a kind of mini epiphany shortly ago. I thought of how many billions of souls are almost assuredly lost to hell given the state of the modern world. However, while the devil has his hour, God has his day. If mankind does make it unto the stars by then the Great Commission will have almost certainly have been fulfilled...

    What is a few billion lives on this limited Earth in comparison to the untold trillions upon unknown billions of worlds whom will all confess with joy that Jesus is the lord? Hell, even the "aliens" are not exempt from his salvation. Think on that a bit will ya...
    That's bollocks. It's apologetics trying to explain a paradox rather than actually knowing anything about "God".

    If you cannot determine evil by willingness to cause or allow evil, then you should not profess to care about limiting "sin".

    The death of an innocent person cannot bring about the salvation of anybody. You have a warped ideology.

    According to your argument, you cannot say that the Devil is evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Sounds like you have an answer to that problem. Pray tell, what "religion" do you think can and should replace Christianity? I am curious. I am quite sure it's pretty damned demonic but hey, surprise me .
    Why replace, when you can just obliterate. Spirituality is not equal to religion
    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Well, God is everything and with everyone. Alternatively, the universe is everything and consists of everyone. God, the Tao, Brahma, the one infinite Creator: It's really all the same. Personally, I subscribe to the Law of One.



    https://www.lawofone.info/

    The Law of One Ra Materials and A Course in Miracles break things down in ways with better clarity than older scriptures which are more easily twisted to fit people's agendas.

    Admittedly, I do enjoy the Bible, the Dhammapada, and the Tao teh Ching in moderation.

    That said, I find the wrangling of whether God is real or not to be silly. The bigger question lies in the nature of consciousness and if consciousness is experienced at an atomic level. If so, the very elements possess consciousness though self-awareness is a different matter (pun intended).

    According to the Law of One and many other philosophies of a mystical nature, all things share in consciousness that flows from a singular source. However, self-awareness appears to be most consistent with the human experience, not to say it is limited to the human experience. Nonetheless, the idea is that all things are subject to evolution that has neither beginning nor end. Perhaps we are expressions of the Creator who wants to know itself better and through all, it knows and is ever knowing its limitless capabilities.

    I think the Ra Materials puts it concisely as:
    "The heart of the discipline of the personality is threefold. One, know yourself. Two, accept yourself. Three, become the Creator."

    That's really it. It's not about being right or wrong, good or bad. It's about authenticity.
    Service to self is an equally valid path as is service to others; the former just requires a lot more commitment because it's easier and more "natural" to do good. The issue arises with apathy -- stradling the fence. But even then, Ra states that "there are no mistakes."

    So it may be most profitable, in my view, to be yourself and have faith. Love without fear and be free to live your life and hopefully enjoy it.

    To quote St. Paul, "and these three remain: faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love."
    In infinity, serving youself and serving others is one and the same. No need to set yourself on fire to warm others, no need to set others on fire to warm yourself, we can just start a fire for everyone who needs it. :heart:

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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    Why replace, when you can just obliterate. Spirituality is not equal to religion
    I'd disagree rather harshly. Your "spirituality" is a religion. At least, it will be for the grand majority of humanity. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've achieved some "ubermench" state. Your descendants (if you even bother to have any) will almost certainly not. Thus, while you do not worship whatever concept or idea you have in the place of God as such (and ya do, I'm just humoring you here), your progeny will down the line. Few can achieve that state if it is even possible.

    Thus my point stands. If not a religion like Christianity, a cultural backdrop that enabled and gave rise to your, I assume, vaunted concepts of rationality, the scientific method, and psychology, well, what? If it isn't some form of devil and/or narcissistic self worship I'll be pleasantly surprised. Name your faith, your god. For again you have one as do we all. The only difference here and now is I'm being totally and completely honest about who and what mine is and have the balls to loudly and proudly proclaim him before all to see and hear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    For me, if sin exists, then the greatest sin is knowingly allowing evil to happen that you prevent. That would make the "God" of the Bible the greatest sinner.
    I could go to town on your whole post but this final line of yours really spells it out for me. Lucifer truly is your brother from another mother (and I bet you'd take pride in that if it was actually true).

    Such a logical leap of absurdity is one I'm thankfully unable to make as, I have posited, to "understand" the demon/devil may well be to become it/him. Thus, by the grace of the almighty, I am literally incapable of parsing your "logic" as it were.

    Oh I can, in a hypothetical sense, but not in that "visceral" sense I made mention to in my relevant responses. I can "understand" Satan in a sense, but I cannot ever truly "get" Satan if ya catch my meaning. Can you truly "get" the likes of me? An ILI who is fervently religious? Who sees the deniers of Christ as hopelessly misguided at best and demonically obsessed/possessed at worst? Can you even cross yourself if even mockingly? I am curious. After all, my faith is only rivaled in fervency by my bottomless desire for hard data relevant to my many and myriad hypothesis regarding the truths of this reality
    Last edited by End; 03-15-2021 at 06:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Than you can either pass a witch test in absolute jest or you prove my points for me demon. I wish I was engaging in hyperbole but the more I try in that field the more I find I'm not trying hard enough!
    "The society that separates it's scholars from it's warriors will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting by fools." ―Thucydides

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Can you truly "get" the likes of me? An ILI who is fervently religious? Who sees the deniers of Christ as hopelessly misguided at best and demonically obsessed/possessed at worst?
    ILIs who've drunk too deeply from Ni aren't particularly rare. Ne is the one that a reputation for weirdness but I don't know any Ne people who've gone so completely off the rails as Ni people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I'd disagree rather harshly. Your "spirituality" is a religion. At least, it will be for the grand majority of humanity. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've achieved some "ubermench" state. Your descendants (if you even bother to have any) will almost certainly not. Thus, while you do not worship whatever concept or idea you have in the place of God as such (and ya do, I'm just humoring you here), your progeny will down the line. Few can achieve that state if it is even possible.

    Thus my point stands. If not a religion like Christianity, a cultural backdrop that enabled and gave rise to your, I assume, vaunted concepts of rationality, the scientific method, and psychology, well, what? If it isn't some form of devil and/or narcissistic self worship I'll be pleasantly surprised. Name your faith, your god. For again you have one as do we all. The only difference here and now is I'm being totally and completely honest about who and what mine is and have the balls to loudly and proudly proclaim him before all to see and hear.
    Sure you do you. But don't expect people to just blindly believe in God AND make Him a priority. For some people there is no consolation to do that.

    Also - Name your faith, your god - we all have one? Well if that's necessary why would I choose Him out of all the things and people I can put faith towards?
    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    ILIs who've drunk too deeply from Ni aren't particularly rare. Ne is the one that a reputation for weirdness but I don't know any Ne people who've gone so completely off the rails as Ni people.
    I don't even know if that's just being Ni lead. Almost like someone indoctrinated
    R

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    Fear of death and the unknown makes us invent a lot of crazy stuff like the 'immortal soul', 'heaven and hell' and the 'meaning of life' and the 'creator of all things who has a plan' to try to reassure ourselves as if living life wasn't enough to justify living life. The invention of continuity is just another way to flee the inevitable!

    Yet I don't see death as the 'end' just because it's the end of my ego. What a self-centered view! Living and dying are part of the same thing; the lion needs to eat the gazelle or he will die. When he'll die, he'll be eaten by other animals whoose poop will be the fertilizer for the grass that gazelles eat. Such is the flow of 'karma' through time... Similarly to gazelles that eat grass that once was gazelles, we are here for a reason, and that is people having died before us and giving life to us. So similarly to life ending in death, death ends up in life.

    Only when your ego starts drawing boudaries around things like 'this is MY life'(as if just because you're living, life 'belongs' to you) one needs something to reassure from life on earth. Religion is a nice crutch, and I respect it for what it has done to make us cohabit together in the past centuries; but if anything, I prefer to worship life for what it is rather than to worship death for some future 'reward'. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
    I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
    Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb

    Life is soup. I'm fork


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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    ILIs who've drunk too deeply from Ni aren't particularly rare. Ne is the one that a reputation for weirdness but I don't know any Ne people who've gone so completely off the rails as Ni people.
    Hm, depends. I'm positive my mom is LSE, so Ni PoLR, and she is the most batshit off the rail I've seen. I think any type can fly off the edge, but might very well end up looking Ni.
    I know my mom would look ILI superficialy. She would likely looooove being Ni, it would flatter her.

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    I have no belief in a personal god, much less one that prescribes a universal path to "salvation". Whether this includes the possibility of any kind of being we may call a god, say, of the deistic or impersonal variety, is still under consideration for me. About the opinion that this lack of belief only leaves the unbeliever with a kind of surrogate god unconsciously ruling over them in the form of their own arbitrary inclinations, I think its advocates would need to make the case for why this perspective would be more valid than the reverse; that rather, the need for such belief is a surrogate for other needs that one can't give clear expression or find a means of satiating.


    The Abrahamic religions, at their roots, appear to be an elaborate (but also crude) method of dealing with male reproductive interests more than anything else. Much of the Bible is eerily focused on how we go about fucking, and what to expect of a woman in that regard, little if any of which has anything to do with what we think of as the morality of western culture. Not even the sexually conservative part of it, given the allowance for rape provided it were followed by marriage, among other things.
    If he's anywhere close to living up to his name, then the most generous assessment I'd have of their god, and the only plausible motive for him intervening in the world that I can think of, is that he simply approaches his creation as a kind of experiment, and for him we are merely test subjects. Granted, it wouldn't be that interesting if his omniscience already informed him of all the outcomes already, in which case it might be that Satan is a similarly omniscient split personality of himself that he created to play devil's advocate, and provide a challenge to an otherwise unchallengeable being. Since I find especially dissatisfying the idea that a certain tribe living in their particular region of the world had the privilege of receiving the light of the one true god, and having official holy scriptures written around their history and justifying their conquests in his name, while others had just been left in the dark during that whole period before they could be sent the messengers of this one true faith (who were themselves in large part from a culture that had few ties to the people and era their scriptures were written about), it'd be more likely to me that the gods of other religions are also just different personas of his. It could even be that those catering to particularly pugnacious varieties of people were deliberately made like that in order to ascertain the way it effects how they compete against one another. Many of his believers defend him by claiming that he transcends human logic, but I reckon it would be more apt to say that he transcends human sanity. Though probably not in a way that we can safely consider to be some higher order of sanity, if there can be such a thing. In conclusion, he would be like a mad scientist, basically. Goes to show how divine madness certainly could reach all the way up.
    Last edited by Kazaan2397; 03-15-2021 at 07:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I could go to town on your whole post but this final line of yours really spells it out for me. Lucifer truly is your brother from another mother (and I bet you'd take pride in that if it was actually true).

    Such a logical leap of absurdity is one I'm thankfully unable to make as, I have posited, to "understand" the demon/devil may well be to become it/him. Thus, by the grace of the almighty, I am literally incapable of parsing your "logic" as it were.

    Oh I can, in a hypothetical sense, but not in that "visceral" sense I made mention to in my relevant responses. I can "understand" Satan in a sense, but I cannot ever truly "get" Satan if ya catch my meaning. Can you truly "get" the likes of me? An ILI who is fervently religious? Who sees the deniers of Christ as hopelessly misguided at best and demonically obsessed/possessed at worst? Can you even cross yourself if even mockingly? I am curious. After all, my faith is only rivaled in fervency by my bottomless desire for hard data relevant to my many and myriad hypothesis regarding the truths of this reality
    You think that allowing evil to happen is not evil, but you cannot explain why "Lucifer" is evil.

    I don't deny Christ. I just have not been shown sufficient evidence.

    Why don't you define "Christ" first, and provide evidence for those properties?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Jesus said: "I am the Light, the Truth and the Way. No man comes to the Father but by me."
    What if JESUS LIED?
    "The society that separates it's scholars from it's warriors will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting by fools." ―Thucydides

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    .................................................. ............................................

    Mary is the Mother of the Body of Christ Jesus, who is our, and her, Lord and Savior. Also in another sense Christians also are the Body of Christ. We, the Body of Christ, just like Jesus our Lord, have not only a Heavenly Father but ALSO a (now) Heavenly Mother. Like a real family. One divine parent, one human parent. We know this is the truth because the Pillar and Foundation of Truth tells us so. (Great truths call for contemplation. See the link in that post with the seashell, the story linked about St. Augustine at the beach).

    Jesus could have come to earth any way He wanted. He chose to come through Mary. Also, Mary, then, is a natural, direct way have Jesus born in our hearts. See the art of Mary all these centuries. She points to Jesus. Always to Jesus.

    We please Our Lord greatly when we go to His mother, Help of Christians, for help. God tells us that "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much." No one is more righteous than Mary, Full of Grace. Full means so full there is no room for more. Her prayers are most efficacious!

    Mary is the Daughter of the Father, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and Mother of the Son. St. Alphonse Liguori tells us that the Holy Trinity love her so much that all she has to do is sigh, and they rush to do her bidding.

    So I have told you some of the glories of Mary. The are great truths, like precious gems. I have taken my time with it, and it is late. My husband said, before he went to bed while I was still typing, when I told him whom I was writing to on the forum, "You are throwing your pearls to swine"... Oh well. At least I feel wonderful to have thought again of these pearls of Mary, Our Mother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flowers and sugar View Post
    Hm, depends. I'm positive my mom is LSE, so Ni PoLR, and she is the most batshit off the rail I've seen. I think any type can fly off the edge, but might very well end up looking Ni.
    I know my mom would look ILI superficialy. She would likely looooove being Ni, it would flatter her.
    Awe. I haven't seen an off-the-rails LSE. Of course they exist, as it exists in every type. Personally all the LSEs I know are stable. Do you know in what way she is unstable, like, Narcissism?
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    You cannot expect religion to be everything for everybody. We all have different lives to live and our perceptions are different...
    This is true!

    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    ...It doesn't matter whether God or not exists. Making Him a priority is outside of it.

    Besides, spirituality will still be a part of human life, but religion such as Christianity just doesn't have a place in the modern world. Because of its own wickedness and absurdity, the walls are slowly closing in on them.
    It is certainly true that it appears that way! But God has promised to be with the Church in all times and the Church will stand until the last day. Jesus's Church is in her Passion; She is much like Jesus when He walked through Jerusalem carrying his cross, beaten and bloodied, insults hurled at Him. He sure didn't "show Himself" well in that moment! Yet, He was God Himself in that ugly-appearing moment. Likewise the Church isn't looking so good in many ways. But there will be a passion which we know from Jesus led to death, a brief one. It will appear as in Jesus' day that evil has won. But we know the end of that. God has promised that there will never be a time in the days of mankind that the Church established by Jesus will not be.

    So yes, there is ugliness to behold, but much beauty shines forth as well.

    Jesus's Church is not wicked or absurd, but it is full of sinners and ignorant folk as well as those who live in complete betrayal of it. You have to look at those who actually live it's teachings to judge it, and there are and always have been so many. Not the hypocrites living diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    Misjudgments of Jesus and His Church make me sad, but it is the reality, particularly in our times. God is the same yesterday, today, and always, and He loves every soul He has created, and He will act in our sad times to ensure souls are saved. We already know He does what it takes, no matter the cost.

    I appreciate your honesty though, and that is why I took time to respond (it's useless to respond to persons of ill will, and I perceive you are not that).
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 03-15-2021 at 09:43 PM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
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  39. #239
    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    This is true!



    It is certainly true that it appears that way! But God has promised to be with the Church in all times and the Church will stand until the last day. Jesus's Church is in her Passion; She is much like Jesus when He walked through Jerusalem carrying his cross, beaten and bloodied, insults hurled at Him. He sure didn't "show Himself" well in that moment! Yet, He was God Himself in that ugly-appearing moment. Likewise the Church isn't looking so good in many ways. But there will be a passion which we know from Jesus led to death, a brief one. It will appear as in Jesus' day that evil has won. But we know the end of that. God has promised that there will never be a time in the days of mankind that the Church established by Jesus will not be.

    So yes, there is ugliness to behold, but much beauty shines forth as well.

    Jesus's Church is not wicked or absurd, but it is full of sinners and ignorant folk as well as those who live in complete betrayal of it. You have to look at those who actually live it's teachings to judge it, and there are and always have been so many. Not the hypocrites living diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

  40. #240
    scattered moorings inumbra's Avatar
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    starts sometime after 2:00

    it's a nice summary of what most world religions are saying on one level imo... and really you could say it's a 9ish bias for me to say in a way they are all saying the same thing, but ahem, as tolle says beneath the ideology/dogma of the world's religions is something transcendental... and generally i think that transcendental aspect is pretty similar in all of them...

    i know that tolle is considered "new age" and in some ways "new age" is its own attempt to merge all the religions together + crystals + runes + mandalas + yoga + ... + etc. etc. and when people are creating fairy mounds and waving stones around to tones as they attempt to balance their chakras, yes it's all this silly muddle of shiz. however, the aim of the "new age" movement is a synthesis... it's to extract the fruit from the tree. the world's religions taken together are the tree and there's all this additional clutter to them, all these ancient cultural practices and laws and attempts to explain why their children died or the crops died or a flood happened, all their moral laws and punishments, all their wars and conflicts, their lineages and history, all their superstitious practices and rituals... the new age movement (when not bogged down by its own rather copious clutter) seeks to remove all the clutter. out of the giant pile of dead leaves all over the ground surrounding the tree is the fruit, and it is basically quite simple, "the essence" as tolle later says.

    this is really close to my view on religion though i am what tolle might call an "egoistic" person still clinging to my separateness, i still walk on the dark side, i still feel somehow this path of desire leads somewhere rather than to a barren desert like a true sith. and i like some of the rituals and am fascinated by ahem, power. it's hard to give up such tasty morsels, it's hard to want to.

    anyway, really the new age thing is simply efficient. it's just harvest the fruit from the trees the human race painstakingly raised for thousands of years trying to find their way out of the darkness. it's um kind of capitalist and sterile, but it's just the next step of what one does after they've created a lot of material here and there... so much content, looking to synthesize, refine like a processed food for easy consumption lol. or you could consider the world religions like the rough draft and the new age movement seeks to edit them down to the final paper, clear and concise. or you could see it as the human race has been talking about this same thing probably since the beginning (as we weren't the first hominid to speak), and this is the current iteration of the same thing again communicated in a modern way, the thing we've always known but can never remember. and then the ideal of the movement is that becomes our solid stair step, so we can build up to the next one. one has to shore up what one has to use it to build what one will have next.

    does it lose some of its beauty and floweriness kind of like how ancient thinkers musing about things now explained by science (like yes, we are made up of atoms) brought more beauty to it all than this sterile science "end" product of it today? yes... but beauty and meaning are not precious and easily born/kindled again. and beauty is ahem ofc in the eye of the beholder. the modern form is beautiful, just not in the same ye olden way.

    oh also i don't really feel it is all leading to some end, really it is all leading to the next iteration. really it may be that humanity always tries to "reach god" when the only way to "reach god" is to stop trying to reach, but then nothing magical happens. we don't erupt into light and transcend the stars or something. we just continue until we can't.
    Last edited by inumbra; 03-17-2021 at 06:07 AM.

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