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Thread: Religion is Everything

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    I guess you are saying there is no Universally held observation of any phenomena by the majority of sane adults that would qualify as possibly being explained by god and not some other commonly known principle of nature, correct?

    I think the issue here is that you are asking the wrong questions. I get the sense you don't even know what you are talking about, given some of the history of what I've seen you write and how you deride and mock it all as being "just silly fundamentalism and deluded belief".

    I get the sense that to you belief is a kind of joke anyway and faith is like some type of deluding yourself as well. I get the sense actually that all of this is totally personal to you as a person. Its like you are a walking talking Richard Attenborough or, Dawkins, some man of English reason. Shmarm Shmarm Shmarm. You are so smarmy. If only we could have the exacting and scientific mind like you. Then we would see that the data doesn't lead either way, and certainly not towards a mysterious power outside ourselves.

    I guess you could say that something like electromagnetism or other such x-natural phenomena is directing "all this". Actually lets spend our time breaking it down even further in to cubits of datum and like, build our cosmology up from there.

    All hail Degrass Tyson.
    I don't need to ask any questions here. You need to present a hypothesis if you have made a relevant observation.

    If your "God" is not phenomenal, for all intents and purposes, it is as though it does not exist.

    You say "Nothing being sacred means nothing is treated as sacred"...but if the thing you most treat as sacred cannot be observed, how is that any different?

    It seems in your posts that you are overly fond of attacking the person rather than the argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I don't need to ask any questions here. You need to present a hypothesis if you have made a relevant observation.

    If your "God" is not phenomenal, for all intents and purposes, it is as though it does not exist.

    You say "Nothing being sacred means nothing is treated as sacred"...but if the thing you most treat as sacred cannot be observed, how is that any different?

    It seems in your posts that you are overly fond of attacking the person rather than the argument.
    just because science can't observe it doesn't mean its not happening. Science can't directly observe consciousness for instance. Can you observe love between a mother and child beyond the obvious, or chemical? Prove it. Maths also cannot describe consciousness, because the observer is outside the systems themselves. Even quantum data says the same thing. lol, how can you not know this experientially?

    You can't and that is the entire issue. Just because logic can't wrap itself around God doesn't mean that there isn't something there. Sorry if you need that ability. I actually find you somewhat sad and also I get the sense I'm outside your quadra group because I feel the same type of older bother annoyance that I've observed with others similar to you. I just want to give you an extra big dose of magic mushrooms to blast you out of your circuits and into something greater, deeper, and more meaningful than this surface shit.

    I think the issue is you want light to be shone on every superstition shadow and you think we as a collective humanity have already reached that point with our instrumentation. If you are asking me for the corner where the phenomena of God can be found that is both a conversation for another time and also impossible to convey because partly it would rely on personal revelation and you are, predictably, the type of man who thinks lowly of individual observation because it can't be independently verified by a third party. LOL, the Age of Independent Third Party authority. Your instincts are flawed and all you need is to sign up for google Health and wrist monitoring to correct your actions to greater functionality and ONE MIND.


    Its funny because the North American Indian understand what I am talking about and I would know I work with them professionally and have had several encounters with Infinity myself, first recognized under the influence of a magic mushroom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    just because science can't observe it doesn't mean its not happening. Science can't directly observe consciousness for instance. Can you observe love between a mother and child beyond the obvious, or chemical? Prove it. Maths also cannot describe consciousness, because the observer is outside the systems themselves. Even quantum data says the same thing. lol, how can you not know this experientially?

    You can't and that is the entire issue. Just because logic can't wrap itself around God doesn't mean that there isn't something there. Sorry if you need that ability. I actually find you somewhat sad and also I get the sense I'm outside your quadra group because I feel the same type of older bother annoyance that I've observed with others similar to you. I just want to give you an extra big dose of magic mushrooms to blast you out of your circuits and into something greater, deeper, and more meaningful than this surface shit.

    I think the issue is you want light to be shone on every superstition shadow and you think we as a collective humanity have already reached that point with our instrumentation. If you are asking me for the corner where the phenomena of God can be found that is both a conversation for another time and also impossible to convey because partly it would rely on personal revelation and you are, predictably, the type of man who thinks lowly of individual observation because it can't be independlty verified by a third party. LOL, the Age of Independent Third Party authority. Your instincts are flawed and all you need is to sign up for google Health and wrist monitoring to correct your actions to greater functionality and ONE MIND.


    Its funny because the North American Indian understand what I am talking about and I would know I work with them professionally and have had several encounters with Infinity myself, first recognized under the influence of a magic mushroom.
    If you can describe "consciousness" and "love" in phenomenal terms, then you can observe them. Don't make out that these two things allow the possibility of "God" - they don't. Only observation of "God" itself can allow that.

    I don't think lowly of individual observation. I don't think you have actually refered to any individual observation apart from talking about taking magic mushrooms.

    When you insult others, you are only saying in your way that nothing is sacred.

    You don't improve things by believing without evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    If you can describe "consciousness" and "love" in phenomenal terms, then you can observe them. Don't make out that these two things allow the possibility of "God" - they don't. Only observation of "God" itself can allow that.

    I don't think lowly of individual observation. I don't think you have actually refered to any individual observation apart from talking about taking magic mushrooms.

    When you insult others, you are only saying in your way that nothing is sacred.

    You don't improve things by believing without evidence.
    I have evidence, but it can't be shown to you. Only the individual observer themselves can make that journey. I suggest mushrooms because they absolutely get you started. If you want to observe God, try this thing. I implore you, because right now your avatar tagline is just straight up bluffing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    I have evidence, but it can't be shown to you. Only the individual observer themselves can make that journey. I suggest mushrooms because they absolutely get you started. If you want to observe God, try this thing. I implore you, because right now your avatar tagline is just straight up bluffing.
    Why don't you define your "God" observation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    @timber @Subteigh stop the quasi identical ILI-LII bickering. You're replaying the whole epistemological debate between rationalist and empiricist philosophers.

    You just have different assuptions on the source of real knowledge and you won't be able to convince each other.
    I probably don't think that anything is knowable. I just don't think I should be expected to believe in something that cannot be observed or which even has contradictory properties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Well, no one forces you or expects from you to believe anything here, so stop playing the rebel. You seem more interested in saying what you think than understanding other points of view. Maybe learn some manners. That applies to @timber too.

    Knowledge is just belief with some additional 'warrants' required. In your case, those are empirical proofs that from timber's point of view are not necessary to be provided to believe in God. Abstract concepts that transcend observation suffice for him. Case closed.
    Actually, many theistic dogmas do expect me to believe, and I objected to @timber's offensive remarks directed at people who not believe in "God" and who apparently hold nothing to be sacred.

    I think his problem with people like me is that without God, there is nothing which is sacred, whereas my problem with him is that when he holds "God" to be sacred, he holds nothing to be sacred.

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    Religion is usually laden with philosophy and ritual, both which are very idiosyncratic. The illusion of it not being idiosyncratic results when people are "on the same page" or people are not equipped with the faculty to engage fully in idiosyncratic thought.
    Reality is amorphous and iridescent, and it is through the tendency to ensnare it in concepts/language and what have you (like religions lol) that purity of comprehension slips through your grasp. I say this because it is the goal of most religions to be attuned to reality.

    In fact, everything I just wrote down is a trap. However, if you naturally pass through my words instead of partake to them, you have purity of comprehension. Whoops, looks like I have placed another trap!

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    Religion can indeed be a huge part of life for many people, offering guidance, community, and a sense of purpose. It's like a personal GPS that helps navigate life's twists and turns. However, for some, it might not be everything, and that's okay too! Diversity in beliefs enriches our world.

    If you're exploring or seeking guidance, sites like https://whenyouneedgod.com/ can be super helpful. They offer insights, resources, and a community of support for those looking to deepen their spiritual journey. Remember, religion can be a source of comfort and strength, but finding your own path is what truly matters.
    Last edited by octavitharpe; 12-08-2023 at 10:19 AM.

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    My world just revolves around merrymaking during Christmas season. I've searched and searched and there is really nothing worth it. The only reason why I'm not offing myself yet. Thank you horned goat Capricorn savior. Oh wait, sorry that sounds like Baphomet. I meant the OG Vissarion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    person should fear their own conscience more than they fear punishment from someone else.
    Following one's conscience alone and fearing it without external authority is inadequate .

    If conscience alone was sufficient without fear of external authority, we wouldn't need prisons, courts, and laws to punish wrongdoers and criminals.

    Have you ever wondered what would happen if laws were abolished and everyone was allowed to act as they wanted without consequences? how many people would actually act according to their conscience rather than their instincts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
    Following one's conscience alone and fearing it without external authority is inadequate .

    If conscience alone was sufficient without fear of external authority, we wouldn't need prisons, courts, and laws to punish wrongdoers and criminals.

    Have you ever wondered what would happen if laws were abolished and everyone was allowed to act as they wanted without consequences? how many people would actually act according to their conscience rather than their instincts?
    Muhammad (if he existed) in my view was worse than Genghis Khan, at least in terms of intent. Both essentially did whatever they wanted, yet millions revere them. If someone like that is your external authority, and you don’t bother to think if an action is right or not, how can you claim it is inadequate if a person doesn’t follow an external authority?

    The Abrahamic religions have the story of “God” asking Abraham to kill one of his sons, and Abraham being willing to do so (that he didn’t have to in the end is irrelevant to my point). The point of the story in these faiths is to show that blind obedience to “God” is what a good follower of “God” would do.

    That illustrates to me that in these religions, there is no act so immoral that a religious person would not do, if they believed “God” told them to do it. It happens all the time that people believe “God” (or a “voice in their head” told them to). Nevermind prisons, there are a lot of mental asylums with such people, despite them supposedly following an external authority.

    If "God" could tell you to kill a child, how can you tell that a good being is talking to you? Essentially, you think people should ignore their conscience, and follow somebody else's. People like Genghis Khan could certainly have a bad set of morals according to wider society, but that's the point. People's consciences are often different from society's. In Genghis Khan's case, he may have actually acted normal for the culture he lived in. I believe that eternal torture is immoral for example, which is contrary to what billions of people who have lived throughout history have believed.

    The story of Muhammad is rather similar to Joseph Smith, both Islam and the Later Day Saints claim to have had prophets who received messages from God, via an angel, who then told other people what was allegedly said. Anyone could claim to have received such a message.

    The Abrahamic religions believe that God killed almost all life on Earth in a flood. Apparently this is not a wrongful and criminal act.

    There was an experiment where researchers dropped wallets with money in them in cities around the globe, and calculated what percentage of them were returned to them. The "Muslim countries" in the study didn't do especially well in terms of returning the wallets. Many more secular countries did better.
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aau8712

    In Christianity and Islam, there is belief in eternal torture in Hell as a punishment. I regard this as the most immoral act imaginable, yet billions follow these religions. Do they do so out of fear, or because they think this is acceptable?

    The Nazis killed millions of Jews and other peoples in the Holocaust, then burnt their remains in furnaces. There are stories that some people were thrown into the furnaces while still living. Anne Frank died at one of their concentration camps of all illness, so she didn’t suffer that fate. I don’t know if you’ve ever read her diary, but if you have, you’ll know she was one of the most humane people who ever lived, who’d never dream of hurting anyone. Yet if Islam is true, Anne Frank will be tortured in the fires of Hell for eternity for rejecting Islam, as she was a faithful Jew. Islam and Christianity therefore to me are worse ideologies than Nazism.

    People like HÍtler and Genghis Khan and Muhammad (if he existed), probably did do essentially what they wanted, but then so did people like Immanuel Kant and Baruch Spinoza (who basically hurt nobody in their lives). There were also people who felt duty-bound to kill thousands of people in the name of their religion they followed (which they didn’t invent), in crusades and jihads etc. – these people will be rewarded with eternity in heaven, if their religions are true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Muhammad (if he existed) in my view was worse than Genghis Khan, at least in terms of intent. Both essentially did whatever they wanted, yet millions revere them. If someone like that is your external authority, and you don’t bother to think if an action is right or not, how can you claim it is inadequate if a person doesn’t follow an external authority?

    The Abrahamic religions have the story of “God” asking Abraham to kill one of his sons, and Abraham being willing to do so (that he didn’t have to in the end is irrelevant to my point). The point of the story in these faiths is to show that blind obedience to “God” is what a good follower of “God” would do.

    That illustrates to me that in these religions, there is no act so immoral that a religious person would not do, if they believed “God” told them to do it. It happens all the time that people believe “God” (or a “voice in their head” told them to). Nevermind prisons, there are a lot of mental asylums with such people, despite them supposedly following an external authority.

    If "God" could tell you to kill a child, how can you tell that a good being is talking to you? Essentially, you think people should ignore their conscience, and follow somebody else's. People like Genghis Khan could certainly have a bad set of morals according to wider society, but that's the point. People's consciences are often different from society's. In Genghis Khan's case, he may have actually acted normal for the culture he lived in. I believe that eternal torture is immoral for example, which is contrary to what billions of people who have lived throughout history have believed.

    The story of Muhammad is rather similar to Joseph Smith, both Islam and the Later Day Saints claim to have had prophets who received messages from God, via an angel, who then told other people what was allegedly said. Anyone could claim to have received such a message.

    The Abrahamic religions believe that God killed almost all life on Earth in a flood. Apparently this is not a wrongful and criminal act.

    There was an experiment where researchers dropped wallets with money in them in cities around the globe, and calculated what percentage of them were returned to them. The "Muslim countries" in the study didn't do especially well in terms of returning the wallets. Many more secular countries did better.
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aau8712

    In Christianity and Islam, there is belief in eternal torture in Hell as a punishment. I regard this as the most immoral act imaginable, yet billions follow these religions. Do they do so out of fear, or because they think this is acceptable?

    The Nazis killed millions of Jews and other peoples in the Holocaust, then burnt their remains in furnaces. There are stories that some people were thrown into the furnaces while still living. Anne Frank died at one of their concentration camps of all illness, so she didn’t suffer that fate. I don’t know if you’ve ever read her diary, but if you have, you’ll know she was one of the most humane people who ever lived, who’d never dream of hurting anyone. Yet if Islam is true, Anne Frank will be tortured in the fires of Hell for eternity for rejecting Islam, as she was a faithful Jew. Islam and Christianity therefore to me are worse ideologies than Nazism.

    People like HÍtler and Genghis Khan and Muhammad (if he existed), probably did do essentially what they wanted, but then so did people like Immanuel Kant and Baruch Spinoza (who basically hurt nobody in their lives). There were also people who felt duty-bound to kill thousands of people in the name of their religion they followed (which they didn’t invent), in crusades and jihads etc. – these people will be rewarded with eternity in heaven, if their religions are true.
    I agree with you.

    Abrahamic religions, outside of their esoteric currents, are essentially based on fear. How could a god of love send anyone to hell? Well, the fact is, he couldn't, it is inconsistent with what love means in Christianity.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Jordon Peterson's reply to, "Do you believe in God?"

    "I act as if God exists, and I am terrified he might."

    Admirable answer from a true intellectual whose piercing candidness I enjoy.
    Like how is this admirable? He's saying he is afraid of going to hell. That's all his "acting as if God exists" is based on - fear. It's lamentable and pathetic, as Subteigh said.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WVBRY View Post
    He's saying he is afraid of going to hell.
    He may dislike different ideas, besides punishments (which may happen during the life too). For example, a force which may oppose to your will without any limits and beyond your understanding.

    Pathetic is any negative motivation. The sense of religions and other ideas is to make people happier and stronger. When people perceive a religion with the accent on a fear - is a problematic work of priests. The main motivation should be positive, as in other case people will tend to find more pleasant ideas.

    From general view on religions. Many ideas on individual level are accepted irrationally, hence can be named as variants of religiond. It can be even main approach to accept some info, as mainly we use external data and not own experience and thinking. The mind of humans is much irrational, - it's much religous by the approach.
    If to take those who blame religions - they have the same level of irrationality, just some of ideas are opposite.

    It's a mistake to think that religions are nothing for practice. As minimum, when a human believes in something as a way to do, - this intention activates his unconscious processes on his aim. So indeed he may achieve that easier or just to achieve, while what model happens in his consciousness during this is secondary.
    Imagine yourself being under warm ligh and your vessels will become wider, warm blood will make your skin warmer. You are using an imagination, but the result is objective and your aim is achieved.
    Monotheism uses images of loving allmighty creator. People ask and may to get what ask. They believe in help and unconsciousness get the attitude to achieve the wished. The result looks as unusual luck. A part of work is just done out of common consciousness.
    I used monotheism to meet a human, which I wanted to meet. I did a prey. I've felt I'll success. And I've met soon "accidentally". It may work! I did alike not a single time. I did more. Limits is hard to say. Other people mb could do more impressive, than my games.

    Idea of sins. There should be unconscious regulation of behavior. For example, to make a harm to others is against instincts to keep alive your kind, against compassion between people needed to give a support each other. So some actions may lead to unconscious opposing. What lead, including, to worse mood, redundant predisposition to negative emotional reactions, more of painful events. The principle of sins is not against common psychology. While religions try (partly correctly) to describe something common for unconscious regulation of people, what may lead them to worse life or lesser pleasant perceiving of it. Also religions by sins idea may act on level of objective consequences which are described by metaphors, where the main is a human behaved better and secondary how correctly it was explained why to do that (the same as with kids) - alike to do not eat "forbidden/damned" (poisoned) fruits.

    Religions is metaphorical approach to deal with mind of people. It can be used for good or worse, as a method/tool to use the imagination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Essentially, you think people should ignore their conscience, and follow somebody else's..
    Re-read my response again, I didn't say at all to ignore your conscience, but what I said is that consciousness alone is not enough
    Why ? simply because consciousness is not something everybody has to the same degree : there are those who completely own it , and there are those who completely suppress it in favor of their instincts, most people are to varying degrees between the two , hence the need for external authority in order to prevent people from deviating towards absolute adherence to instincts , if there is no external authority that punishes wrongdoers and people fear it, then it's easier for most people will follow their instincts as they wish

    The Abrahamic religions believe that God killed almost all life on Earth in a flood. Apparently this is not a wrongful and criminal act.
    Classifying God's actions from a humaic point of view is not reasonable , God is not a human.


    Yet if Islam is true, Anne Frank will be tortured in the fires of Hell for eternity for rejecting Islam, as she was a faithful Jew
    It's truly absurd to judge her fate because:

    1- In Islam, torment is conditional on the person knowing the message of God , we don't have (as far as I know) any evidence proving Frank’s knowledge of Islam, her reading about Islam, or her opinion about it

    2- God decides who enters Heaven and Hell, not us

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    @Subteigh btw , if you want a real example of what would happen if laws and external authority were cancelled, you can read about Marina Abramovic’s Rhythm 0 , she presented herself as an object and allowed the public to do whatever they wanted with her without consequences or restrictions, and she took full responsibility for what would happen to her

    If you want a fictional example, you can watch the Purge film series

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
    @Subteigh btw , if you want a real example of what would happen if laws and external authority were cancelled, you can read about Marina Abramovic’s Rhythm 0 , she presented herself as an object and allowed the public to do whatever they wanted with her without consequences or restrictions, and she took full responsibility for what would happen to her

    If you want a fictional example, you can watch the Purge film series
    I never said that laws should be cancelled. The reality is that even without laws, the actions of individuals is limited by the actions of other individuals, including society as a whole.

    In the case you gave, the person gave permission, so I'm not sure what you think it's illustrative of.

    I only follow laws that I agree with and which it would be inconvenient if caught breaking them. If I consider a law immoral, I'm certainly not going to follow it.

    Islam doesn't allow freedom of conscience, freedom of belief and so on, it wants to punish people even if they have thoughts contrary to Islam. I know what Islam is like when it exists in vacuum, it's like Islamic State and Muhammad. You may call Islam law, which arguably it is, doesn't mean it is moral. The central book of Islam (the Quran) permits genocide, terrorism, slavery, and rape, amongst other things I regard as awful, and endorses eternal torture.
    Last edited by Not A Communist Shill; 12-06-2023 at 08:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
    Re-read my response again, I didn't say at all to ignore your conscience, but what I said is that consciousness alone is not enough
    Why ? simply because consciousness is not something everybody has to the same degree : there are those who completely own it , and there are those who completely suppress it in favor of their instincts, most people are to varying degrees between the two , hence the need for external authority in order to prevent people from deviating towards absolute adherence to instincts , if there is no external authority that punishes wrongdoers and people fear it, then it's easier for most people will follow their instincts as they wish
    But you do ignore your conscience as you let your religion determine your moral code for you, even if it tells people to kill innocent children. You talk about instincts, but Steven Weinberg made the point I agree with (although I'd said fundamentalist ideology rather than religion) "“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
    Classifying God's actions from a humaic point of view is not reasonable , God is not a human.
    OK, that just means you cannot claim to be able to distinguish God from Satan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
    It's truly absurd to judge her fate because:

    1- In Islam, torment is conditional on the person knowing the message of God , we don't have (as far as I know) any evidence proving Frank’s knowledge of Islam, her reading about Islam, or her opinion about it
    So you're saying that if she found out that Islam preaches that people who reject it are going to be tortured for eternity, she might have followed it? Do you think she would have joined the Nazis too?
    Quran 4
    56. Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allah is Ever Most Powerful, All-Wise.
    Quran 22
    16. Thus have We sent it (this Qur'an) down (to Muhammad ) as clear signs, evidences and proofs, and surely, Allah guides whom He wills.

    17. Verily, those who believe (in Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad ), and those who are Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians, and the Magians, and those who worship others besides Allah, truly, Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Verily! Allah is Witness over all things.

    18. See you not that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and Ad-Dawab (moving living creatures, beasts, etc.), and many of mankind? But there are many (men) on whom the punishment is justified. And whomsoever Allah disgraces, none can honour him. Verily! Allah does what He wills.

    19. These two opponents (believers and disbelievers) dispute with each other about their Lord; then as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their heads.

    20. With it will melt or vanish away what is within their bellies, as well as (their) skins.

    21. And for them are hooked rods of iron (to punish them).

    22. Every time they seek to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be driven back therein, and (it will be) said to them: "Taste the torment of burning!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
    2- God decides who enters Heaven and Hell, not us
    How do you know "God" is telling the truth? (Assuming Jibreel accurately recorded Allah's messages, that Muhammad accurately remembered Allah's messages (Islamic accounts shows he often forgot or had verses replaced, and some were even eaten by a sheep), that the early Muslims accurately remembered Muhammad's message etc.). Especially if "God" tells people to kill innocent children, and threatens people with eternal torture for not believing in it? If the Quran is true, it's clear that those who reject Islam and Muhammad will be tortured. So, what you're saying is that you don't believe it is from "God", or that it isn't clear, or that you are not familiar with it.

  20. #260
    Lo'taur ! godslave's Avatar
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    Man (yes it had to be a man not a woman !) created Gods in his image.
    God is of the Human condition.
    Don't Judge God too harshly through the prism of our modern Civilized post enlightenment Ethics and Moral.
    God is as Moral as the highest Moral standards of time of the men who came up with its creation.
    Don't underestimate the power of group behavior, for it can turn off the judgement of the individuals within it.
    The most vile instincts, the shadows of the men, are expressed with frenzy without any psychic censorship under the intoxicating influence of group behavior.
    Beware of the man who, while being evil or delusional, can constitute control and manipulate groups of people.
    The Prophet, the shaman, the cult leader, the political leader,
    their power of persuasion compensates their weakness, they'll use you and abuse you, and you'll love it.
    Rituals and collective worshiping are what makes people united under the banner of faithfulness to the group.
    The archaic fear of ostracization is still one of the most powerful drive behind some of the most irrational behaviors.





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