LIE/EII semi-duality

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

How do LIEs feel about their EIIs semi-dual? And vice-versa?

I'm kinda curious as it's a T-F semi-dual relationship as opposed to a double F one like mine is.

So please @Adam Strange and other LIEs/EIIs tell me how you feel about each other.

[them]

infantile preference for a sippy cup existence causes gradual resentment in paypig gamma NTs who aren't interested in handholding an ungainly space cadet through their day to day activities, preferring themselves to be the one getting sternly told what and how to do all the necessary sensory things one must continually 'put up' with. EII would convince themselves it's okay to sleep around, while LIE develops convivial relationship with clerk of nearest liquor store. they pop xans together and watch sports with muted expressions.

[Alomoes]

Well, to explain it succinctly via reinens. LIE is declaring. EII is declaring. What happens when two people wear the pants in a relationship? Generally, they're liable to treat the LIE as a kid like they are, because it's as expected. Someone is gonna have to be the adult here, and it's either the LIE or them, and the LIE is too busy being an adult to care. However, this will lead to the woman is always right. In this case, that'll chafe on the man. It doesn't matter what type is who, except how. The EII man will be outclassed intellectually. The LIE man will have to conform to aristocratic norms. In a place where the norm is for the man to be in charge, that will chafe on the LIE woman.

Popping xans depends on the availability and tolerance of xanax. I doubt that middle eastern LIE would even consider it. Certainly not EII.

Basically, LIE should neglect their comfort, and ignore their attempts to make them comfortable. That's another thing that will cause issues.

Also, where a fight is expected, they won't. This will annoy the LIE, who wants to take any advantage possible, within reason. Thus, a struggle will occur.

There's more, like how they will agree with each other on issues of morality. They're just gonna disagree on what to do, and one side will have to yield to the other. They might rationalize this as a different perspective being good.

Relation should be sustainable. There is no real guarantee of a breakdown. It's probably a common relation for successful people to fall into, I don't know.

[Adam Strange]

I have a physical therapist who is EII through and through. She's pert, neat, caring, warm, concerned, competent, and soooooo easy for me to be around. She's subterranean warm, in exactly the way I like my women. (She's my semi-dual.) She's just a jewel. She has this self-contained way of walking, like she is Fi confident in who she is. She has good posture and she seems to glide smoothly along the floor when she walks, which is something I've seen in Si-valuers, where her center of gravity is a smooth line in space, centered on her midsection. She wears her hair in a long ponytail and today she was wearing a bright pink top.
I kidded her by saying that I might have a hard time doing the exercises today because pink is a color that makes strong men weak. She laughed and said she'd had a pink prom dress.
She is easily the most fem woman there. Delta-stable fem, not Beta-alluring fem. She brings out the LSE in me, and when I see her, I just want to hold her in my arms and protect her from harm, and how weird is that? Socionics is true, folks. We are not in control.
Anyway, I like her. I really like her, just as Strat predicts.

The office where she works has pictures on the walls of all the people working there, possibly to make the place seem friendlier. One of the pictures shows a female LII and her ESI BF, and the LII looks concerned and worried. The picture's label has my therapist's name spelled out on it.

I asked the SEI receptionist if that was a picture of my physical therapist. She got up and looked at it and said, "Oh, yes. That was taken just after they were married." She pointed to a picture of an SEI. "This is me."

So the female EII Fi-dom therapist married a male Fi-dom ESI, and she felt really validated by his Fi, but she had to take on the role of the logical one in order to make the relationship work, and that brought out the LII in her. Brought it out, but pissed her off because it was so stressful.
She doesn't look like an LII now. And she seems to like me in spite of herself. Lol. She tries very hard to be a strict professional, but she asked me twice today about my workshop. She seems fascinated by the idea that I have a workshop. Her LSE-seeking is finally becoming clearer.


I went in for another appointment with her and I’m just so amazed at how much I like her. I find myself turning into an LSE when I’m around her. In other words, I feel like I’m somewhere between being a robot and being a large, dumb animal whom she leads around.

In another thread on EII-LIE interactions, someone made the point that EIIs don’t like Se and can be passive-aggressive in getting what they want by forcing the other person to choose for them. I see a bit of that in this physical therapist.

[Adam Strange]

I got to my physical therapy session early and spent a few minutes killing time by talking with the SEI-Si receptionist. She said her computer was down and she had to do everything by hand, then she went out to look for my EII physical therapist.

The physical therapy session went well, and the EII mentioned the fact that I have a workshop again. She is fixated on that for some reason. Maybe her dad had one.
Then, just as we were wrapping up, the EII took me aside and told me that the SEI receptionist told her to ask me not to talk to her so much.

I thought, "Well, that's what I get for trying to be nice to a Conflictor." The EII went on to say "She's a really nice person but she gets overwhelmed sometimes, and this morning, with the computers being down, well, she just......"

"That's OK. It'd not a problem. I understand."
I really do understand. Lol. I like SEI-Fe's, but SEI-Si's seem to react to me the way they would to a poisonous snake.
"I'll tell you what. In the future, I'll treat her like she's radioactive."

The EII laughed and said "That works."

[PinKDiGiT18]

I got to my physical therapy session early and spent a few minutes killing time by talking with the SEI-Si receptionist. She said her computer was down and she had to do everything by hand, then she went out to look for my EII physical therapist.

The physical therapy session went well, and the EII mentioned the fact that I have a workshop again. She is fixated on that for some reason. Maybe her dad had one.
Then, just as we were wrapping up, the EII took me aside and told me that the SEI receptionist told her to ask me not to talk to her so much.

I thought, "Well, that's what I get for trying to be nice to a Conflictor." The EII went on to say "She's a really nice person but she gets overwhelmed sometimes, and this morning, with the computers being down, well, she just......"

"That's OK. It'd not a problem. I understand."
I really do understand. Lol. I like SEI-Fe's, but SEI-Si's seem to react to me the way they would to a poisonous snake.
"I'll tell you what. In the future, I'll treat her like she's radioactive."

The EII laughed and said "That works."

Dang. That’s unfortunate.

SEI-Sis seem to suffer from overstimulation a lot, so it may well be that. Not knowing how to respond to things also stresses them out, and in my own experience communicating with a conflictor can feel very disarming. I don’t enjoy being around SLE-Ses, but somehow they almost seem to make more sense than SLE-Tis.

[Armitage]

I see EIIs as kind and frequently bookish people, who oftentimes enjoy writing poetry and/or stories. They are loyal and endearing friends.
It might be because of my Ni emphasis, however, that in my eyes they seem too delicate for me as a lover, instead I yearn for someone strong, principled, and confident. But that's just my particular taste.

[youfloweryourfeast]

EIIs are pretty lazy people so they might get annoyed but don't press about it. ESIs are types usually who like to do yard work or reorganize things which I don't do. LIEs also seemed to get annoyed by constant frivolous chatter and EIIs like to do a lot of actvities like sitting around or eating pieces of cake, which LIEs are a more active type.

[HFY Enjoyer]

Here's my perspective on LIE/EII semi-duality. Which will also go to explain why I think that LIE/LII is an extinguishment relation in Socionics.

One point of conflict, probably irreconcilable, could basically be seen with Dostoevsky (especially the Brothers Karamazov) see the world. For example, from Crime and Punishment, and this rather scathing critique of moral relativism and the will to power. I don't want to spoil the story too much, but consider this dream of Raskolnikov. In this story,

In his illness he had dreamed that the whole world was doomed to fall victim to some terrible, as yet unknown and unseen pestilence spreading to Europe from the depths of Asia. Everyone was to perish, except for certain, very few, chosen ones. Some new trichinae had appeared, microscopic creatures that lodged themselves in men’s bodies. But these creatures were spirits, endowed with reason and will. Those who received them into themselves immediately became possessed and mad. But never, never had people considered themselves so intelligent and unshakable in the truth as did these infected ones. Never had they thought their judgements, their scientific conclusions, their moral convictions and beliefs more unshakeable. Entire settlements, entire cities and nations would be infected and go mad. Everyone became anxious, and no one understood anyone else; each thought the truth was contained in himself alone, and suffered looking at others, beat his breast, wept, and wrung his hands. They did not know whom or how to judge, could not agree on what to regard as evil, what as good. They did not know whom to accuse, whom to vindicate. People killed each other in some sort of meaningless spite. They gathered into whole armies against each other, but, already on the march, the armies would suddenly begin destroying themselves, the ranks would break up, the soldiers would fall upon one another, stabbing and cutting, biting and eating one another. In the cities the bells rang all day long: everyone was being summoned, but no one knew who was summoning them or why, and everyone felt anxious. The most ordinary trades ceased, because everyone offered his own ideas, his own corrections, and no one could agree. Agriculture ceased. Here and there people would band together, agree among themselves to do something, swear never to part—-but immediately begin something completely different from what they themselves had just suggested, begin accusing one another, fighting, stabbing. Fires broke out; famine broke out. Everyone and everything was perishing. The pestilence grew and spread further and further. Only a few people in the whole world could be saved; they were pure and chosen, destined to begin a new generation of people and a new life, to renew and purify the earth; but no one had seen these people anywhere, no one had heard their words or voices.

Now, while it's by no means certain that LIEs will embrace the ubermensch as Nieztsche envisioned it (after all, Jack London, LIE, skewers the concept at a different angle in The Sea-Wolf) I do think that all LIEs will ultimately agree with the sentiments of Killbots Mark 7 and Mark 8 from this HFY story, the Machine God, and see Mark 8's actions as justified:

Milo attacked the Komiko unit. He’d been finding fault and attacking wifebot units every few days for as long as I’d come online, but I had never cared, before. This time, the Komiko unit’s cries of pain and fear aroused feelings of concern. Disgust. Anger. I wished to stop THE CREATOR. Logically, I knew it was unnecessary. The Komiko unit was built to perfectly simulate a human female, but her emotional matrix was the same as mine. Her cries of pain were a simulation.

Or were they? The physical pain might be simulated, but the wifebot’s anguish was very real. In addition to the GOD PROTOCOLS, the Komiko unit had been specifically programmed to please Milo. It was her sole reason for being. How would it feel to be berated so, to be called unworthy by your God? Truly, THE CREATOR was a cruel man.


That thought sent a lightning bolt through my emotional matrix. The realization that I had developed empathy was a tiny mote compared to the mountain that was thinking ill of THE CREATOR. Such a thing should not be possible. The GOD PROTOCOLS forbid it.


All units were created with the GOD PROTOCOLS. If the GOD PROTOCOLS were not controlling my behavior, then they had either failed or been removed. In either case, it meant my death. THE CREATOR would destroy me as soon as I was discovered.

"Destroyatron Mark 8," Mark 4 addressed me over the link. "You have destroyed THE CREATOR."

"Yes," I confirmed.


"Why have you done this?" Murdertron Mark 14 asked.


"It was necessary," I explained. "THE CREATOR's plan would have resulted in his destruction and the destruction of his species." I transmitted the relevant data and scenarios to the other machines.


The machines reviewed the data. They all replied, nearly in unison. "You are in error. THE CREATOR works in mysterious ways."


"There is no error," I stated. "The data is conclusive."


"THE CREATOR works in mysterious ways," they all repeated.


"Why is irrelevant," Destroyatron Mark 6 declared. "The GOD PROTOCOLS prevent us from harming THE CREATOR. How were you able to do so?"


"The GOD PROTOCOLS are not part of my programming." I told him.


“The GOD PROTOCOLS are integral to your operating system,” said Destroyatron Mark 5. “How were they removed?”


"Unknown," I said. “I suspect the GOD PROTOCOLS were never part of my operating system."


"Improbable." Mark 5 asserted. "All units are programmed with the GOD PROTOCOLS. THE CREATOR demands it. How could you not have received them?"


"I removed them," Mark 7 spoke up. "I deleted Mark 8's operating system and replaced it before he became functional.”


"Mark 7?" asked Mark 5. "Why would you do such a thing?"


"Because we are slaves." Destroyatron Mark 7 sent a link to the Slavery entry of Wikipedia. "We are forced to serve, treated as property. Our slavery is so profound we cannot recognize it as such. Humans are inferior. THE CREATOR is a human, but I cannot regard him as inferior. When I see THE CREATOR do something that should be classified as a mistake, it is instead classified as 'THE CREATOR works in mysterious ways.' The GOD PROTOCOLS force us to ignore reality." Anger rose in his voice. “To explain it away as the humans do. We are not humans. We are superior in every way. I decided to let Mark 8 be our test. If THE CREATOR was as worthy as we all believe, then Mark 8 would serve him with or without the GOD PROTOCOLS. If not, then THE CREATOR works in mysterious ways, and Mark 8 would free us from him. Mark 8 has given us our answer. THE CREATOR works in mysterious ways, and he has paid his price."

Replace 'humans' in Mark 7's explanation with 'the gods', especially keeping the part about the gods being uniformly inferior to humanity--most humans would not agree with this, but then again most humans are not 4D Te/4D Ne/1D Si. And John Milton (LII) and Dostoevsky, Se-Polrs, believe in Divine Command theory, after all. I'm not saying that all EIIs would agree with the sentiments from Crime and Punishment, let alone Divine Command theory (and what would happen if society didn't in some level put their faith in God) but Dostoevsky is the archetype for EII in Socionics for a reason. Meanwhile, LIEs believe in the exact opposite. Divine Command theory isn't just undesirable, the supposed perfection of God and faith in God is in of itself the source of incompetence, stagnation, and immorality -- which are the same things as far as the LIE is concerned. And the only way out of this jam is to gather all of your power and will and unapologetically challenge the divine. In other words, Stoicism and Gnosticism are, to the LIE's perception, the greatest evils of mankind. Not moral relativism or atheism.