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Thread: Have you noticed duality to be more common between some types?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    That's not my experience at all. I don't think I'm more or less appealing than any other male because of Ne. The place I grew up/live is filled Si lead females. Maybe that affected how I perceive my role concerning courtship, because I had those objectifying experiences like girls talking loudly in the bus about how nice my butt looked, older women saying that they'd like 'to get me' if only I was their age or random girls coming to me and asking if they can sit on my lap. What's sure is that I'm not interested in 'getting' anyone, but finding a partner to soothe the loneliness and get some support would be nice tho.

    I also have SLI girls ask me on a date from time to time; but as I said before in the thread, I doubt they can give me what I need so I just ignore them, and then regret the passed opportunity and kick myself for my own indecisiveness later lol.

    That means you're hot bro, congratz.
    That reminds me of this IEE guy I knew. Tall, hot, blonde dude who was sooo awkward in general dealing with women it was hilarious lol. Only caregiver types liked him because he gave these passive sorta vibes that were a bit of a turnoff for most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr PissBender View Post
    It is true. If you are not a good looking Ne type. You are castrated. Si egos are superficial as fuck as they are dumb HAHAHA

    I also had to develop high ego and cockyness to get laid, so... I relate. I'm good at it and they buy it, while inside i am suffering and just want mommy gf.
    You're from Argentina, right? No wonder you can't find SLI gf. Like 80% of people there are Betas. I think I met 2 SLI over the course of 15 years there lol. And I met maybe 3 SEI. Out of maybe hundreds of people I analyzed. It's such a Se-Fe society it's not even funny: the politics, the drama, the egotism, etc. Part of the reason I moved out of the country was that I couldn't mesh with my own people

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    That means you're hot bro, congratz.
    That reminds me of this IEE guy I knew. Tall, hot, blonde dude who was sooo awkward in general dealing with women it was hilarious lol. Only caregiver types liked him because he gave these passive sorta vibes that were a bit of a turnoff for most.
    Hmmm I always thought that randy Si doms acted like that with all Ne types once they decide to shave & put on decent clothes.

    I'm not really hot but i think I may look "cute and harmless" which makes me look "easy to get". Some months ago I was at that birthday and spilled juice on my shirt (because I started talking before i had swallowed) and the rather gorgeous girl next to me(some alpha Si type) started giggling and wanted to "help me clean" my shirt while looking at me with the expression 'OhOohoohooOo he dirtied his shirt pls let me adopt you'. That kind of turned me off bc being treated like a pet or a child isn't a kink I have; I prefer someone who can hold a real deep discussion.

    I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
    Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb

    Life is soup. I'm fork


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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Hmmm I always thought that randy Si doms acted like that with all Ne types once they decide to shave & put on decent clothes.

    I'm not really hot but i think I may look "cute and harmless" which makes me look "easy to get". Some months ago I was at that birthday and spilled juice on my shirt (because I started talking before i had swallowed) and the rather gorgeous girl next to me(some alpha Si type) started giggling and wanted to "help me clean" my shirt while looking at me with the expression 'OhOohoohooOo he dirtied his shirt pls let me adopt you'. That kind of turned me off bc being treated like a pet or a child isn't a kink I have; I prefer someone who can hold a real deep discussion.

    bruh you're living the dream
    Also, how do you even begin talking with juice in your mouth... I mean. Seriously hahahah. Either IxE-Ne have terrible body control or I'm not a Ne lead after all
    I can get spilling liquid when you're drinking and something funny happens so you start laughing and the liquid comes out your nose. That's happened so many times to me lol

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    I was kinda excited, normally I'm not that clumsy, but sure I don't have the best body control haha

    My mouth be like :
    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    Also, how do you even begin talking with juice in your mouth... I mean. Seriously hahahah.
    My brain : yea yea ok let me say something funny real quick tho

    My mouth: wait that's not how it~~

    My brain: THIS JOKE'S GOING NOW, OR WE'LL MISS THE JUMP TIME WINDOW! GO GO GO




    No I think you're ILE man
    I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
    Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb

    Life is soup. I'm fork


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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Hmm functions are spectrums, EII's Polr is actually Se-/Si+(beta Se & alpha Si). I sense you have strengthened Se+/Si- which is HA of EII. The introverted EII only use Si- but since you're the extraverted EII, you use Se+(gamma Se). You use your HA like LIE basically.

    SLI women are pretty much everywhere....
    That's really interesting, do you have any additional info/experiences you could share wrt to how the Se+ manifests?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aciaradh View Post
    That's really interesting, do you have any additional info/experiences you could share wrt to how the Se+ manifests?
    + Se - retention of power, insubordination, defense, firmness, defense of one's interests, strong-willed pressure from the bottom upwards, strength, will, possession;

    The theory behind that spectrum stuff is Model B (Bukalov) of socionics. Read about it here. The way I see it, Se+(Gamma, concrete Se) is the "awareness of strength" compared to Se-(Beta, abstract Se) which is the "awareness of power". Strength enables you to rely on yourself to push for what you want, to get up when you've fallen down, to take the blows of life, to take intiative, to never give up. It's what Arnie talks about in this video(I'd type arnie as LIE-Te, so he has the same boosted Se+/Si- HA as EII-Fi):



    LSE has Se+/Si- as creative and Se-/Si+ as demonstrative.

    Se-(beta) is about power because it's not about some concrete sense of will, but about some abstract sense of pressure. You don't have to be strong to win or control people, you can control them by being weak and sneaky too. By playing the victim. By blaming a scapegoat. By hitting the man who's already on the ground. There is no sense of Se+ integrity with Se-. It's you win or you loose. If you don't use all you got to win, you'll loose. Hard stuff. Explains all that shitty cruel stuff betas do to each others.

    From this page:

    F, volitional sensing — information related to the essence of space.Functions:

    +F — defense, safeguard, shield, rebuff, battle for interests, acquisition, benefit, saving, thrift, accumulation of resources, profit.
    Depending on context, the concept «survival» may belong to +F-element (conservation of life) and -F-element (to survive due to the destruction of other). The same applies to the concepts of strength, will, living space)


    −F — seizure, attack, assault, aggression, pressure, influence, authority, power, control, volitional pressure, loss, weakness, and all +F manifestations.
    @Dr PissBender that might interest you too. If you're IEE-Ne like me, then Se+/Si- would be your suggestive.
    Last edited by lkdhf qkb; 04-10-2021 at 07:05 PM.
    I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
    Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb

    Life is soup. I'm fork


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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    You're from Argentina, right? No wonder you can't find SLI gf. Like 80% of people there are Betas. I think I met 2 SLI over the course of 15 years there lol. And I met maybe 3 SEI. Out of maybe hundreds of people I analyzed. It's such a Se-Fe society it's not even funny: the politics, the drama, the egotism, etc. Part of the reason I moved out of the country was that I couldn't mesh with my own people
    So. You were born there? Interesante. Argentina is hell for Ne egos, honestly, especially ILE/IEE men imo. And yeah, i have met veeeery few Si egos here, I wonder why that is. But there are Se egos mostly, followed by Ni egos. I hate it.. dude. Where did you go to? I want to leave Hell as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr PissBender View Post
    So. You were born there? Interesante. Argentina is hell for Ne egos, honestly, especially ILE/IEE men imo. And yeah, i have met veeeery few Si egos here, I wonder why that is. But there are Se egos mostly, followed by Ni egos. I hate it.. dude. Where did you go to? I want to leave Hell as well.
    Yup. Born in Argentina, lived in Canada for a few years as a kid and then went back to Argentina so I'm dual citizen. I returned to Canada in September last year. There was a tiny window of time in which both borders were open so I escaped in the nick of time.
    Now I'm in Vancouver which honestly feels like a Gamma society. Out of the frying pan and into the oven. I think I'll move to a more friendly rural place or small town in the future. First gotta make some cash.
    If you wanna talk or something I can send you my Whatsapp contact. Always a pleasure to talk to a fellow argentinian now that I'm not surrounded by 'em 24/7 hahaha.

    Seriously the lack of Si back at home is astounding. Guess people just kinda grow up to be confrontative, aggressive, etc. None of that Si chill kinda thing you know? All the Si valuers I knew were the outcasts whereas Se valuers were normies lol.
    I think poor EIIs have it the worst though. Basically getting hit in their POLR every 10 minutes and dealing with the political and economic mess/instability. My mum is EII and she always disliked the instability of our country, the rude attitudes, the violence, etc.

    Hell is exactly what I call it. Used to live in Jujuy which is Hell within Hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    Yup. Born in Argentina, lived in Canada for a few years as a kid and then went back to Argentina so I'm dual citizen. I returned to Canada in September last year. There was a tiny window of time in which both borders were open so I escaped in the nick of time.
    Now I'm in Vancouver which honestly feels like a Gamma society. Out of the frying pan and into the oven. I think I'll move to a more friendly rural place or small town in the future. First gotta make some cash.
    If you wanna talk or something I can send you my Whatsapp contact. Always a pleasure to talk to a fellow argentinian now that I'm not surrounded by 'em 24/7 hahaha.

    Seriously the lack of Si back at home is astounding. Guess people just kinda grow up to be confrontative, aggressive, etc. None of that Si chill kinda thing you know? All the Si valuers I knew were the outcasts whereas Se valuers were normies lol.
    I think poor EIIs have it the worst though. Basically getting hit in their POLR every 10 minutes and dealing with the political and economic mess/instability. My mum is EII and she always disliked the instability of our country, the rude attitudes, the violence, etc.

    Hell is exactly what I call it. Used to live in Jujuy which is Hell within Hell.
    Oh man. True. The LII and EII men I know have it hard as fuck as well. So yeah I can see that. And hell yes! I'd love to talk to you, bro. DM me your number!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    + Se - retention of power, insubordination, defense, firmness, defense of one's interests, strong-willed pressure from the bottom upwards, strength, will, possession;

    The theory behind that spectrum stuff is Model B (Bukalov) of socionics. Read about it here. The way I see it, Se+(Gamma, concrete Se) is the "awareness of strength" compared to Se-(Beta, abstract Se) which is the "awareness of power". Strength enables you to rely on yourself to push for what you want, to get up when you've fallen down, to take the blows of life, to take intiative, to never give up. It's what Arnie talks about in this video(I'd type arnie as LIE-Te, so he has the same boosted Se+/Si- HA as EII-Fi):



    LSE has Se+/Si- as creative and Se-/Si+ as demonstrative.

    Se-(beta) is about power because it's not about some concrete sense of will, but about some abstract sense of pressure. You don't have to be strong to win or control people, you can control them by being weak and sneaky too. By playing the victim. By blaming a scapegoat. By hitting the man who's already on the ground. There is no sense of Se+ integrity with Se-. It's you win or you loose. If you don't use all you got to win, you'll loose. Hard stuff. Explains all that shitty cruel stuff betas do to each others.

    From this page:



    @Dr PissBender that might interest you too. If you're IEE-Ne like me, then Se+/Si- would be your suggestive.
    I know an EII-Fi like this, he's very gamma, used to think he was ESI.

    How would the need of Se+/Si- display on us then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr PissBender View Post
    Oh man. True. The LII and EII men I know have it hard as fuck as well. So yeah I can see that. And hell yes! I'd love to talk to you, bro. DM me your number!
    Sent bro

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    dat feeling when you are a welfare state citizen and Ne ego being breastfed since birth.

    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr PissBender View Post
    I know an EII-Fi like this, he's very gamma, used to think he was ESI.

    How would the need of Se+/Si- display on us then?
    Well, it's the most repressed function in IEE-Ne. Personally I tie it to lack of initiative, failure to protect material interests, dislike to impose oneself and not knowing how to relax.
    I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
    Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb

    Life is soup. I'm fork


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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Well, it's the most repressed function in IEE-Ne. Personally I tie it to lack of initiative, failure to protect material interests, dislike to impose oneself and not knowing how to relax.
    Yeah, I see those things as boring tasks or shit to do. I'd rather have everything handed to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    That means you're hot bro, congratz.
    That reminds me of this IEE guy I knew. Tall, hot, blonde dude who was sooo awkward in general dealing with women it was hilarious lol. Only caregiver types liked him because he gave these passive sorta vibes that were a bit of a turnoff for most.
    See? I'm not awkward at all dealing with women but i'm not tall and i actually look like a murderer, but some women find it hot, some SLI told me i'm the "attractive psycho type".

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    Yup. Born in Argentina, lived in Canada for a few years as a kid and then went back to Argentina so I'm dual citizen.
    So @Dr PissBender @The Banana King and Rusal. Is this place hasta el culo de argentinos?

    A dominant EII I know is more fesity and can hold her own against Se brutality. A probable SLI is trying to get the heck out of here. The country is not full of betas, it's worse: it's full of lawyers-

    j/k. Gulenko does say Betas dominate the figures in total population *everywhere*.
    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    So @Dr PissBender @The Banana King and Rusal. Is this place hasta el culo de argentinos?

    A dominant EII I know is more fesity and can hold her own against Se brutality. A probable SLI is trying to get the heck out of here. The country is not full of betas, it's worse: it's full of lawyers-

    j/k. Gulenko does say Betas dominate the figures in total population *everywhere*.
    The argentinians who want to leave Argentina have third-eye powers, which make us able to channel into this Socionics site. Some say that Maradona's ghost is trapped here, in Shotgunfingers's pussy.

    Ghoulenko quiere que le den duro en el culo estos betas, tipea a todo el mundo y a su abuela como beta el muy culiado.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    + Se :Se: - retention of power, insubordination, defense, firmness, defense of one's interests, strong-willed pressure from the bottom upwards, strength, will, possession;

    The theory behind that spectrum stuff is Model B (Bukalov) of socionics. Read about it here. The way I see it, Se+(Gamma, concrete Se) is the "awareness of strength" compared to Se-(Beta, abstract Se) which is the "awareness of power". Strength enables you to rely on yourself to push for what you want, to get up when you've fallen down, to take the blows of life, to take intiative, to never give up. It's what Arnie talks about in this video(I'd type arnie as LIE-Te, so he has the same boosted Se+/Si- HA as EII-Fi):



    LSE has Se+/Si- as creative and Se-/Si+ as demonstrative.

    Se-(beta) is about power because it's not about some concrete sense of will, but about some abstract sense of pressure. You don't have to be strong to win or control people, you can control them by being weak and sneaky too. By playing the victim. By blaming a scapegoat. By hitting the man who's already on the ground. There is no sense of Se+ integrity with Se-. It's you win or you loose. If you don't use all you got to win, you'll loose. Hard stuff. Explains all that shitty cruel stuff betas do to each others.

    From this page:



    @Dr PissBender that might interest you too. If you're IEE-Ne like me, then Se+/Si- would be your suggestive.
    Sweet, thank you so much! I had definitely read about the different-signed functions before, but not specifically when it came to Model B, so that's a huge help. That sounds quite a lot like my interactions with my SLE dad though. I've talked a bit about it on the site before, but him being my conflictor/super-ego in addition to being Se- ego made for some hellish arguments. It's like no matter how much pressure you apply upwards/how in the right you are, you can't win as the Ti hierarchy doesn't allow for subordinates to "break rank." And you keep getting hit once you're down, as requests for them to stop screaming at you only fuel the anger and pressure applied.

    But I really relate to that description; even though I have low stereotypical Se, I very much have a sense of willpower, defense, etc. So thanks for that, guess I might be EII-Fi after all :)

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    Most noticeable to me has been EII husband - LSE wife duo. The EIIs are homebodies. The LSE phones up at regular-ish intervals to check in on them

    I really do not have a large sample size to choose from, however

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    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Most noticeable to me has been EII husband - LSE wife duo. The EIIs are homebodies. The LSE phones up at regular-ish intervals to check in on them

    I really do not have a large sample size to choose from, however
    I have seen this behavior, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Most noticeable to me has been EII husband - LSE wife duo. The EIIs are homebodies. The LSE phones up at regular-ish intervals to check in on them

    I really do not have a large sample size to choose from, however

    This is wholesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr PissBender View Post
    So. You were born there? Interesante. Argentina is hell for Ne egos, honestly, especially ILE/IEE men imo. And yeah, i have met veeeery few Si egos here, I wonder why that is. But there are Se egos mostly, followed by Ni egos. I hate it.. dude. Where did you go to? I want to leave Hell as well.
    Oh wow you're Argentinian? I always subconsciously assume everyone I meet online is a fellow Eaglelandian until proven otherwise lol Move to big city Florida, nobody will bat an eye to Ne mayhem there.
    "Now is the time to get serious about living your ideals. How long can you afford to put off who you really want to be? Your nobler self cannot wait any longer. Put your principles into practice – now. Stop the excuses and the procrastination. This is your life! You aren’t a child anymore. The sooner you set yourself to your spiritual program, the happier you will be. The longer you wait, the more you’ll be vulnerable to mediocrity and feel filled with shame and regret, because you know you are capable of better. From this instant on, vow to stop disappointing yourself. Separate yourself from the mob. Decide to be extraordinary and do what you need to do – now." - Epictetus

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    Quote Originally Posted by asd View Post
    what is “eagle land”..?
    "Now is the time to get serious about living your ideals. How long can you afford to put off who you really want to be? Your nobler self cannot wait any longer. Put your principles into practice – now. Stop the excuses and the procrastination. This is your life! You aren’t a child anymore. The sooner you set yourself to your spiritual program, the happier you will be. The longer you wait, the more you’ll be vulnerable to mediocrity and feel filled with shame and regret, because you know you are capable of better. From this instant on, vow to stop disappointing yourself. Separate yourself from the mob. Decide to be extraordinary and do what you need to do – now." - Epictetus

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    Quote Originally Posted by asd View Post
    @LemurianLo what is “eagle land”..?
    Land of the Tweet, home of Outgrabe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LemurianLo View Post
    Oh wow you're Argentinian? I always subconsciously assume everyone I meet online is a fellow Eaglelandian until proven otherwise lol Move to big city Florida, nobody will bat an eye to Ne mayhem there.
    I'm gonna. We gotta become besties, motherfucker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by asd View Post
    Lol, I didn’t know that was another word for US

    lol It's not common but from the video game Earthbound where the protagonist is from Eagleland
    "Now is the time to get serious about living your ideals. How long can you afford to put off who you really want to be? Your nobler self cannot wait any longer. Put your principles into practice – now. Stop the excuses and the procrastination. This is your life! You aren’t a child anymore. The sooner you set yourself to your spiritual program, the happier you will be. The longer you wait, the more you’ll be vulnerable to mediocrity and feel filled with shame and regret, because you know you are capable of better. From this instant on, vow to stop disappointing yourself. Separate yourself from the mob. Decide to be extraordinary and do what you need to do – now." - Epictetus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr PissBender View Post
    I'm gonna. We gotta become besties, motherfucker.
    United, we'll represent the duality of Florida in physical form.
    "Now is the time to get serious about living your ideals. How long can you afford to put off who you really want to be? Your nobler self cannot wait any longer. Put your principles into practice – now. Stop the excuses and the procrastination. This is your life! You aren’t a child anymore. The sooner you set yourself to your spiritual program, the happier you will be. The longer you wait, the more you’ll be vulnerable to mediocrity and feel filled with shame and regret, because you know you are capable of better. From this instant on, vow to stop disappointing yourself. Separate yourself from the mob. Decide to be extraordinary and do what you need to do – now." - Epictetus

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    Quote Originally Posted by LemurianLo View Post
    United, we'll represent the duality of Florida in physical form.
    YES! WE are gonna become FLORIDUALS. We are gonna tear shit up. Call in SLE Chad @cyberpunk and his army of african children so he helps us take over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    bruh you're living the dream
    YEAH LIKE WTF AND HE WON'T APPRECIATE IT?!?!?!?! MOTHERFUCKER

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    And about the LII and ESE pair, I have seen many of them. Somehow it feels like a very natural pair. The ESE of course is the one initiating. I haven't met an LII woman ESE man pair. Mostly because ESE guys are all gay lol (the few ones I met at least, don't mean to offend haha).
    LOL ESE guys aren't really "gay" or gay looking per se but they're a bit too perky and excitable and loud. The thing with ESE is that they're bossy and pushy, and bulldozing. Not only are they linear assertive, they get ultra enthusiastic and get really loud about it. G is an LII and I'm willing to bet he knew what his dual is like and avoided them, which was why he married his semi-dual. For a logical, it's easier for them to get with their semi-dual over dual for some reason. I think ESE wants LII but they're so pushy that irl LII wouldn't want that. I can see ESE working much better with LSI and having a more natural relationship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolita View Post
    LOL ESE guys aren't really "gay" or gay looking per se but they're a bit too perky and excitable and loud. The thing with ESE is that they're bossy and pushy, and bulldozing. Not only are they linear assertive, they get ultra enthusiastic and get really loud about it. G is an LII and I'm willing to bet he knew what his dual is like and avoided them, which was why he married his semi-dual. For a logical, it's easier for them to get with their semi-dual over dual for some reason. I think ESE wants LII but they're so pushy that irl LII wouldn't want that. I can see ESE working much better with LSI and having a more natural relationship.
    In my sample size of 5, 2 ESE guys and 3 EIE guys all of them were gay. Like really obviously so. And they dated other dudes lol. So by inductive reasoning I will assume all Fe lead men are gay until proven otherwise.
    I think the problem is that the straight ESE men act like LSE and the straight EIE men act like LIE. So I don't notice them as easily. I'll stop making assumptions from now on...

    Okay I've thought about it some more and I recalled an ESE-Si guy who was definitely straight. But he gave me LSE or even SLE vibes. But looking back he took an active role in managing the emotional atmosphere, making sure the weird new kid (me) wasn't left out, and also he did things like open the windows in the class when it was getting hot or the air was getting stuffy which is a behaviour I associate with Si types lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolita View Post
    LOL ESE guys aren't really "gay" or gay looking per se but they're a bit too perky and excitable and loud. The thing with ESE is that they're bossy and pushy, and bulldozing. Not only are they linear assertive, they get ultra enthusiastic and get really loud about it. G is an LII and I'm willing to bet he knew what his dual is like and avoided them, which was why he married his semi-dual. For a logical, it's easier for them to get with their semi-dual over dual for some reason. I think ESE wants LII but they're so pushy that irl LII wouldn't want that. I can see ESE working much better with LSI and having a more natural relationship.
    Rational semiduality is easier in some ways than duality because of a shared intuition/sensing dichotomy. Since EIE and LII are both intuitives there's more of a sense of relation that you don't really get with duals, who are complete opposites from each other in a way. Socionites tend to see duality as the perfect relationship, but most people have a drive to be understood, and they won't get that from duals.

    I've only known one ESE dude who was gay. Mostly they don't seem that way at all to me. To me they come off like the protagonists in Hallmark TV romance smut, where they have the middle-class middle-aged female fantasy of a strong, self-assured, masculine guy who's also warm, social, and concerned about the woman's feelings.

    ESEs (and LIIs) seem to me able to fit either masculine or feminine gender roles well. ESEs are warm, sociable, and "caregiving," but also self-assured/confident, take a very direct approach to things, active, and don't at all mind confrontation when they feel it's necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolita View Post
    Enneagram isn't in-born (that's EIE lenses) but yes, it's developed over time based on the person's experiences so their enneagram becomes fixed in adulthood. At no point did Ichazo or Naranjo say that enneagrams is in-born. This is why they used the specific word "fixation" meaning that it's an obsession. You're not born obsessed. You become obsessed over time. That's not the same as cognition which is actually in-born, because that describes how the person is wired (although it doesn't describe why they're wired that way).
    Um I suppose so, but I did think maybe sociotype might not be exactly inborn, and could still change in the first few months of life or something, when the parent bonds with the child. Or maybe it is just the enneagram type that begins to develop in response to the environment the baby finds itself in. It does seem like there’s some definite correlations between sociotypes and e-types though. Sociotypes are a product of evolution (response to environment) and enneagram is also response to environment. They both deal with the same data? I thought that maybe enneagram (tritype) can be seen to represent which functions are emphasised in a type. A bit like DCNH does. The emphasis might only be slight, but it could be significant for finding a dual you are compatible with. Or even more significant for finding a non-dual partner. What you said about enneagram tapping into a person’s emotions and being more focused on the self..it’s true- it’s more of an instinct in someone? Also, I think the order of the tritype means something. I plan on going back to the enneagram dual thread to talk more about compatibility there. But essentially @myresearch was talking about how each number in the tritype can be associated with certain values or qualities. You can use the triads (hornevian, harmonic and object relations) to identify these.

    946 for example, may be associated with ‘fears’ of each separate type like separation, lack of identity, lack of support but a person will go to great lengths to avoid/challenge those fears- a 9 for example, will act ‘withdrawn’/ take on a ‘positive outlook’ and also become very ‘attached’ to people. (these descriptors are from the triads). The 4 and 6 parts do other things. So maybe a 946 is best with a tritype which complements these obsessions/imbalances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolita View Post
    Yeah, I have my tritype, but I didn't figure it out. I had 5 duals and 2 identicals independently came up with my tritype. An identical, a benefactor, a supervisor, 2 duals, and 2 kindreds actually typed me as 8 core from knowing me for 2 or more years and they're very well versed in enneagrams. My enneagram and tritype doesn't determine my socionics type, since they're separate. Enneagrams talks about the ego's fears (mainly irrational fears) and taps into a person's emotions. That's not the same as thinking. Socionics explains a person's cognitive motivations. All enneagrams does is give another dimension to understanding a person but it doesn't explain how one set of fears can be "compatible" with another. Fear is fear. Some people can overcome them, some can't. Enneagram is totally self-focused, while Socionics is more about relations and society-focused.

    I guess I am a "high" level Ti user, but I don't get pedantic and unlike Ti valuers, I don't care about finding endless info to answer a question that's already been answered before. If you're referring to the naturally hostile attitude people take towards their PoLR and equating it with fear and linking that to enneagram, then no, I'm not scared of Ti, however, it's still my PoLR. I'm just a subtype of SEE that has developed shadow functions. Some people who have developed PoLR functions don't get affected by it much, and for some, it's more intense. Enneagram may be able to explain why the individual has that level of intensity of being (negatively) affected by their PoLR, but doesn't determine it. I don't think I ever was scared of Ti, since my dad is LSI and he taught me Ti all my life. I work in the legal field, that's heavily Ti (but also Te) and I really enjoy it. This isn't to say that because I have developed Ti as SEE-N that another SEE-N is going to be at the same level of Ti development as I am. N subtype just means engagement with Ti, so whether Ti is the type's PoLR or lead, it doesn't matter, it is just a way to identify that the person has Ti accentuation.
    Enneagram is about the ‘ego’s fears’ and ‘fixations’. Ok- the word fixations makes me think of the lead function in socionics (or ego block?). We do fixate on these things, they seem to be what drives us to get up every day and keep going even when times are hard. We also seem to fixate on the third function, (we wish we were better at it). What you said is interesting- comparing enneagram fears to the polr/4th function. I don’t think I was thinking about that. I just meant that humans are acting on deep instincts to survive- we are programmed to survive. (Btw have a look at this article which is talking about the fourth function but comparing it to the HA? Is that right @Rebelondeck? My Take on Hidden Agenda (socionics.com))

    Maybe you can see the rejection of the polr as similar to enneagram fears yeah. And the 1st, 2nd and 3rd function as the defense mechanisms or fixations that we use to deal with that fear. Maybe it’s like fight or flight and in your case, with better than average ti, you fight. I dunnoooo. Lol.

    You’ve mentioned shadow functions as did someone else in the thread. This makes me think of MBTI, as I remember reading about shadow functions then. (I do wonder if looking back at mbti might be helpful for me, for streamlining and consolidating some of the socionics knowledge I’ve gained.) Socionics is too much sometimes lol.

    If enneagram taps into someone’s emotions, then maybe it can be used for helping discover compatibility? Because your emotions are a big part of you. Let’s compare DCNH with tritype as an idea..I would be harmonising meaning, I have accentuated si and ni. This kind of makes sense for my 946 tritype, known for being anxious and identity seeking (si is to do with feelings in the body? Ni is to do with finding answers?) For you, when I saw your tritype it just made me remember that you had talked about having accentuated ti. 836 seems ti-ish in my mind. I associate 836 with the politics/military and you seem to like discussing political aspects of socionics or let’s say the way the ideas comment on structures in society, and you seem quite passionate about it, ready and willing to fight to have your ideas heard. You will see in the enneagram dual thread that we worked out that my tritype matches up with yours quite well, though ideally I would be with an 836, not 863. Not quite sure why the order matters..but maybe an 836 SEE/SLE would be more likely to be a creative subtype, and therefore more compatible with me (or 964 maybe with you!). Or maybe all that matters is that the 8 is first. Really though, we need to look at the ideas about the triads to compare these tritypes. I guess for the moment I am just trying to show how ennegram can be about emotions/identity like you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolita View Post
    One's mental health doesn't eradicate duality. It just happens. I've dualize with some who weren't at their best and over time we became friends. Duality doesn't mean there's an actual personal relationship, although it could develop into one over time. The point of duality is to provide each other assistance while one or both are in stressful situations. Think of it in terms of having an ally during tough times.
    It's interesting you say this. I hope that’s the case. Sometimes I do think that my lack of success and lack of development might stop me from finding a dual, or a partner. Although I suppose there are lot of other semi-healthy people out there too. And I guess the most important thing is that I feel like I’ve overcome a lot of my problems. Being around good people can really bring out a different side to you as well.

    It’s interesting..I suppose from an evolutionary point of view, animal instinct to survive, is what made different types and duals come to exist? For humans to survive, we needed variety and cooperation. Like your comment about sociotype being related to society and relations. Regarding the different ITR..I think there are probably just pros and cons to the different ITR (or the top ones). Maybe other non-dual ITR are proof of humanity's need to live and enjoy life rather than just survive. Our fixations (lead functions) are what drive us, if we didn’t have fixations would we have any fire to drive us? And maybe being different to each other, rubbing against each other, is also kind of a friction that holds us together. Or makes life interesting! I remember in group therapy the teacher said to us that it is our ability to imagine the future (and reflect?) (our fixations??) that makes us human. (Foresee something bad/good happening). Maybe it is also our ability to see value in our differences as well. Soz that's kinda jumbled but yeah.
    Last edited by Bethany; 04-11-2021 at 03:32 PM.
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    Enneagram isn't inborn so is attachment style. Yet, attachment style is an important factor of compatibility, because how we adapt to people and form relationships in our childhood and adolescence determines how are going to interact with our partner when we are adult. Enneagram also show how we interact with external, people, etc, hence it affects the compatibility.

    How a person learns to live in external world in their earliest memories have a great impact on how someone's brain is wired and what kind of people they are going to match in the future and relationship compatibility.
    Last edited by myresearch; 04-12-2021 at 01:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    In my sample size of 5, 2 ESE guys and 3 EIE guys all of them were gay. Like really obviously so. And they dated other dudes lol. So by inductive reasoning I will assume all Fe lead men are gay until proven otherwise.
    I think the problem is that the straight ESE men act like LSE and the straight EIE men act like LIE. So I don't notice them as easily. I'll stop making assumptions from now on...

    Okay I've thought about it some more and I recalled an ESE-Si guy who was definitely straight. But he gave me LSE or even SLE vibes. But looking back he took an active role in managing the emotional atmosphere, making sure the weird new kid (me) wasn't left out, and also he did things like open the windows in the class when it was getting hot or the air was getting stuffy which is a behaviour I associate with Si types lol.
    LOL I know what you mean by Fe acting gay cuz it's ultra dramatic and cares about maintaining the emotional atmosphere esp. when in lead function. That's literally all the contestants on Rupaul's Drag Race, including Rupaul as EIE.

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