Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 41 to 80 of 98

Thread: A hot take on transgender ideology (and gender ideology)

  1. #41
    Haikus Computer Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,434
    Mentioned
    96 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Reposting my old post on masculine vs feminine:

    Men and women will both have a mix of masculine and feminine. Males on average will be more masculine relative to females and vice versa.
    Variations of course due to things like testosterone, estrogen, race, parental influences growing up (Father's influence will affect masculinity in women and mother's influence will affect femininity in men) etc etc

    Masculine and Feminine styles of thinking

    Masculine thinking tends to focus on what separates one phenomena from one another. It looks for contrasts between things to better label them. It takes things apart, like a machine and analyzes them. It prefers to look at things from the outside with emotional detachment. The masculine way tends to prefer specialization, to dig deep into something specific.

    Example: Look at all the political/religious topics on this forum. Deep into the conversations it will be pretty much *mostly* dudes.

    Feminine thinking likes to focus on the whole, how the parts connect to one another, the overall picture. In looking at a group of people, it wants to see how they relate to one another. Instead of freezing phenomena in time in order to examine them, it focuses on the organic process itself, how one thing grows into another. This form of thinking leads to insights when the hidden connections between things suddenly become visible in intuitive flashes. As opposed to specialization, it is more interested in how different fields or forms of knowledge can connect to one another.

    Example: The greatest scientists in the world utilized feminine style thinking to open their minds to as many explanations as possible, making discoveries through intuitions, etc.

    Masculine and Feminine styles of Action

    Masculine action- When it comes to taking action, the masculine tendency is to move forward, explore the situation, attack, and vanquish. If there are obstacles in the way, it will try to push through them.

    Example: The top 1% of society in terms of wealth will always be men. Why? Their masculinity helps them work 80 hour weeks and stay focused on boring shit for long periods of time. If there's a task to cut down a billion trees with axes, some crazy mother fuckin dudes will be there to do it trust me lol.

    Masculine also makes for GREAT entertainment lol:



    Feminine action- Patience, resilience, flexibility. Prefers to first withdraw from the immediate situation and contemplate more deeply the options. It will often look for ways to avoid the conflict, to smooth out relations, to win without having to go into battle. Sometimes the best action is nonaction- let the dynamic play itself out to understand it better; let the enemy hang itself by its aggressive actions.

    Example: Queen Elizabeth I, her primary strategy was to wait and see in battle; instead of jumping into battle when Spain invaded, she decided to hold the army back, allowing the harsh weather conditions to slow down their advance.

    Masculine and Feminine styles of self-assessment

    Masculine self-assessment- Men tend to look outward when they make mistakes. Also feel that they are completely responsible for success in life. They are blind to the element of luck and help of others.

    Feminine self-assessment- Women tend to do the opposite - when their is failure, they tend to blame themselves and look inward. If there is success, they are more prone to look at the role of others in helping them.
    Last edited by Computer Loser; 02-10-2021 at 09:08 PM.

  2. #42
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    2,785
    Mentioned
    346 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolita View Post
    Take note. It’s the Fe egos that perpetuate cancel culture if you don’t share the same views as they do.
    It’s not limited to any type and I’ve seen various types participate in it. But I actually think it’s more Fi than anything - IEEs and ESIs seem to be the biggest types behind it, in my opinion. Fi is the function of values/morals and likes/dislikes and prefers to avoid the things that defy that (especially -Fi and/or when coupled with Se) or move towards what embodies it. ESI is literally cancel culture served as a type - they will not hesitate to cut anyone out of their life the very minute they see one thing about them that they don’t like or goes against their values, and they give zero chances for the other person to get back in contact with them or change/prove them wrong and sometimes they preface it by telling you why you suck, if you’re lucky. That is so very bizarre and unlike me that it never ceases to shell shock me when it happens to me, personally. I am rubbed the wrong why by that behavior and even when I try to incorporate the mindset myself I cannot enforce it very long (when I try to, it’s usually because I’m hanging around someone extremely toxic and someone else is urging me to cut them off because I never will myself).

    I don’t really care about cancel culture either way, but I tend to dislike it more than anything. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and I can’t ignore how complex we all are and what we are capable of doing or becoming, or that with good there’s always bad, vice versa, etc. Unless we’re canceling rapists or pedophiles and other sick fucks, then I’m all in. I am actually attracted to shitty people most of the time and swing the door wide open for them. But there are still a handful of people I think I have ‘canceled’ - not that I’m entirely sure what that’s even supposed to mean because from what I’ve seen it seems to range from only talking shit about them when their name comes up to intricately trying to destroy their life lol.

    I know Fe likes to flow with the group norms or feelings so they may lean into the habit, too. But a lot of times they totally forget or ignore the things it looks like they’re fighting for as soon as they’ve left the crowd they were with or they’re morally ambiguous/flexible in general; they can also have a strong sense of values but knowingly break them or frequently hang with people that do. I’m sure there’s other things I’m missing as well.

    A lot of the morals the cancel culture people hold are not the same as what the mainstream holds, which is a reason why so many people hate on it besides thinking they’re taking shit too far.

    Not everything you hate is Fe.
    Last edited by flames; 02-10-2021 at 10:01 PM.

  3. #43
    BandD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    12,381
    Mentioned
    449 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    what is clitoral about group feeling?
    "Women are more emotional and males are more logical." Of course that's a crude, not totally true stereotype but it's a stereotype for a reason. No disrespect but you prove that stereotype right here yourself with how often every single day you blow up and get angry at what people post... if you want to be respected as a T type I really wish you wouldn't emotionally lose your cool so much.

    Fe being thought of as 'feminine' really isn't a big deal to me - although it is simplistic and overly general and kind of elementary school kiddish. Which part of me doesn't mind because I think that's better than being some faux-intellectual with a ruler up their ass at all times. (Not saying you are acting that way that comment wasn't directed towards you, but some people here do.) It was just some silly video to laugh at not psychoanalyze weirdly...

    Nothing about that Fe video that says womanish.
    Fe relates to femininity not 'womanish' as obviously there is mannish woman. But even those women seem to feel things deeply and make decisions based on their emotions... they probably are still more logical than me mind you, but then again so is a throw pillow from Good Will.
    Last edited by BandD; 02-10-2021 at 10:17 PM.

  4. #44
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    4,051
    Mentioned
    300 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    cancel culture ive seen it more applied on those who perpetuate ideas similar to the one shared by OP, Rowling, me etc. if you dont suck up to wtv mainstream ideology is in trend nowadays you're a bigot and immoral for not allowing everyone their own true identity...ugh

    it's like those duded who took the statues down because theyre threat to freedom, while the only threat to freedom is their nazism

  5. #45

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,093
    Mentioned
    107 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post


    "Women are more emotional and males are more logical." Of course that's a crude, not totally true stereotype but it's a stereotype for a reason. No disrespect but you prove that stereotype right here yourself with how often every single day you blow up and get angry at what people post... if you want to be respected as a T type I really wish you wouldn't emotionally lose your cool so much.

    Fe being thought of as 'feminine' really isn't a big deal to me - although it is simplistic and overly general and kind of elementary school kiddish. Which part of me doesn't mind because I think that's better than being some faux-intellectual with a ruler up their ass at all times. (Not saying you are acting that way that comment wasn't directed towards you, but some people here do.) It was just some silly video to laugh at not psychoanalyze weirdly...



    Fe relates to femininity not 'womanish' as obviously there is mannish woman. But even those women seem to feel things deeply and make decisions based on their emotions... they probably are still more logical than me mind you, but then again so is a throw pillow from Good Will.


    You're doing it again. Posting something untrue and generalizing, like if I were to say gays are pedophiles. And then you are surprised when I'm upset by it. That aside, I've made it clear that I've been told I have PTSD. I am utterly upfront about my incredibly intense experience of events and how strong my emotional reactions are. And I'm not surprised by any of it. Some of my earliest memories are of fleeing my home to not be murdered. We did that several times when I was in kindergarten/1st grade.

    Yes, we know the sexism doesn't bother you much. that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. The house slaves might not be as bothered by the slaves outside being called dirty animals.

    You brought up a video as an example and then asked an NT not to examine the example. That's not how I work.

    I know you don't want it Te-ed and Ni-creatived, but that's what I've got. And I'm communicating what I see. If you don't want to talk about how Fe isn't Black or Female or Trans we don't have to.

  6. #46

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,093
    Mentioned
    107 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    cancel culture ive seen it more applied on those who perpetuate ideas similar to the one shared by OP, Rowling, me etc. if you dont suck up to wtv mainstream ideology is in trend nowadays you're a bigot and immoral for not allowing everyone their own true identity...ugh

    it's like those duded who took the statues down because theyre threat to freedom, while the only threat to freedom is their nazism
    suck up? or like hurl hate and derision at people?

    I'm tired of religious ppl trying to make me agree with them I hate or look down on ppl who are gay. 'Ra! Ra! they're an abomination!' And they look over at me with their Alex Jones facial expressions, and I die a little inside from boredom

  7. #47
    BandD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    12,381
    Mentioned
    449 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Posting something untrue and generalizing, like if I were to say gays are pedophiles.


    It's a generalization but it's not totally untrue. Is that comment about pedophilia supposed to get under my skin? Because it doesn't. Perhaps it's true that the gay community has a problem with pedophilia than other communities. So? We should fix that and stop avoiding it just because it's a not very pc thing to say. It doesn't mean gays aren't worthy of respect and love as a whole, obviously. It's like saying women don't deserve equal rights or protection under the law because they are often turned on and chase Chad assholes that just break their heart instead of the nice nerdy guy. Or that we shouldn't respect black males since they are more likely to be caught up in the criminal justice system...

    A darker trait that a group does shouldn't be so alamaring and talking about those traits we shouldn't have to always idiotically say 'well we don't mean *all*' as that should be implied naturally. This is why SJW stuff is so problematic, it often has to infantilize & victimize the group wanting special rights (it goes a lot deeper than wanting equality usually) as if they are holier than thou more than other people when there isn't really any such thing... every minority group should take responsibility of the own trauma they cause and stop playing victim- if what they want is respect from the majority. It makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

    Also these abuse stories you say always sound really exaggerated and reminds me of what Teal Swan does so they are hard to believe and like you are trying to manipulate pity to make you look more in the right. I don't see a T type doing this sort of thing... I would just believe them a lot more if they weren't such an obvious attempt at using pity and victimhood.

    Generalizations are based on truth and people are always going to have them in their minds when dealing with others. I don't care if a person looks at me as a pedo because I know myself & I do not want sex with their kids... they can think that all they want but I know myself. And I can only really prove them wrong by not having sex with kids... If a person's stereotype or generalizations have no weight you probably shouldn't care much either. The fact that you get so sensitive about it just me makes me think that you are just secretly afraid you fit every single one... and really, who cares if you fit some stereotypical traits.

    Yes, we know the sexism doesn't bother you much.

    Males are expendable and treated like shit in society. The person that's being sexist here is you. =D If you want to fight sexism then stop selfishly just seeing one side of the issue. Feminism is a cancer on society as it's not equal rights so much as a self-absorbed and spoiled white female just wanting their own way narcisisstically under the guise of some illusionary 'goodness.' I can't get behind that. White women have pretty much ruined feminism.

    I know you don't want it Te-ed and Ni-creatived, but that's what I've got. And I'm communicating what I see. If you don't want to talk about how Fe isn't Black or Female or Trans we don't have to.

    Fe is pretty feminine/Female like though - I don't get where the black or trans thing comes into play.






    Last edited by BandD; 02-11-2021 at 12:43 AM.

  8. #48
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    4,051
    Mentioned
    300 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    suck up? or like hurl hate and derision at people?

    I'm tired of religious ppl trying to make me agree with them I hate or look down on ppl who are gay. 'Ra! Ra! they're an abomination!' And they look over at me with their Alex Jones facial expressions, and I die a little inside from boredom
    i find that the western world is pretty liberal with views concerning one's sexual identity "it's easy to change ur sex today, just take a pill!", it's all profit for someone (pharma)

  9. #49
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    11,441
    Mentioned
    1172 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    i find that the western world is pretty liberal with views concerning one's sexual identity "it's easy to change ur sex today, just take a pill!", it's all profit for someone (pharma)
    Wait, can they turn a lesbian straight? Because I know one I'd like to have play on my ball team.

  10. #50

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,093
    Mentioned
    107 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    i find that the western world is pretty liberal with views concerning one's sexual identity "it's easy to change ur sex today, just take a pill!", it's all profit for someone (pharma)
    profit? yeah, it's profit if you decide you're a machinist at heart and want to take my machining program, too. Does that mean you shouldn't be alowed to alter yourself in the learning-to-machine way?

    I mean...I'm profiting if you attend my machining school, so does it then follow that you're to be stopped from the process? or that you're mentally ill for wanting to give it a go? is there something deeply important about you not going through the machine education transformation?

  11. #51
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    2,785
    Mentioned
    346 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This thread is hilarious after you’ve smoked a joint, especially when you’ve never cancelled anyone

    Everyone needs to take life less seriously.

  12. #52
    FreelancePoliceman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    牛国
    TIM
    LII-Ne
    Posts
    2,956
    Mentioned
    245 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by asd View Post
    is this not phantom limb syndrome? Could you explain what you mean by it in context of transgender people?
    Phantom limb syndrome exists where someone has a limb and then loses it. I’ve never heard of people born with a missing limb experiencing anything like that.

  13. #53
    FreelancePoliceman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    牛国
    TIM
    LII-Ne
    Posts
    2,956
    Mentioned
    245 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by asd View Post
    Yeah that’s what I meant

    you mentioned dysmorphia in context of transgender people and then said something that sounds closest to phantom limb syndrome (dysmorphia is intense obsession and dysfunctional anxiety around some perceived physical “flaw”)
    I see. I meant that often I read articles saying that transsexuals feel they don’t have the right body or right equipment. I don’t think that’s a biological impulse, like they were born with a “female brain” in a male body or something. It’s a psychological problem, not a biological one, to the extent that the two can be distinguished.

  14. #54
    DeliMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    TIM
    IEI-N 5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    276
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by asd View Post
    Interesting although the psychology influences the biology and vice versa but does dysphoria (what you mentioned - feeling like you’re in the wrong body) really involve literal awareness of body parts they don’t have or they just feel like they were born in the wrong body? Cuz I’ve never heard of the former wrt dysphoria
    Some of the most intense dysphoria I used to get involved sensation of body parts I have never had. I intend on making a post clarifying some points of mine and adding it to the original post.

  15. #55

    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Limbo
    Posts
    67
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    i find that the western world is pretty liberal with views concerning one's sexual identity "it's easy to change ur sex today, just take a pill!", it's all profit for someone (pharma)
    Sexual identity and gender have actually been explored and not set-in-stone culturally since pretty much the beginning of humanity. There are numerous examples from across the globe throughout history (Africans, American Indians, Sumerians, etc) of cultures that have not held rigid gender norms, not constrained the idea of gender to one's sex at birth, and held queerness in high regard and as a part of normal life. I recognize the temptation to view these changing ideas as a Western concoction borne of liberalism, but LGBTQ+ identities have existed in multiplicity across so many varying cultures and civilizations that it's kind of a misguided notion (not directing that at you, just in general). I loathe big Pharma and the extraction of profit and value from marginalized people's struggles as well, but I don't think that should discount/discredit in any way the people who should receive those services.

  16. #56
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    4,051
    Mentioned
    300 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aciaradh View Post
    Sexual identity and gender have actually been explored and not set-in-stone culturally since pretty much the beginning of humanity. There are numerous examples from across the globe throughout history (Africans, American Indians, Sumerians, etc) of cultures that have not held rigid gender norms, not constrained the idea of gender to one's sex at birth, and held queerness in high regard and as a part of normal life. I recognize the temptation to view these changing ideas as a Western concoction borne of liberalism, but LGBTQ+ identities have existed in multiplicity across so many varying cultures and civilizations that it's kind of a misguided notion (not directing that at you, just in general). I loathe big Pharma and the extraction of profit and value from marginalized people's struggles as well, but I don't think that should discount/discredit in any way the people who should receive those services.
    sure, I agree with u and wrote the same things about the long history of sexual "deviations" in the first page of this thread. in Italy for example we have a long history of "femminielli", trans women that were regarded sort of holy by the community and in more recent times (1800?) they were castrated in order to sing with a better high voice in the operas.

    so, yes, identifying with the opposite sex has always been a thing, but I do wonder, as I wrote in the other post under the same premise, if this would still be the case if genders were actually treated and could express themselves truly equally and freely. because, if everybody had the right to act as they wish, what would be the reasons to become something else?

  17. #57

    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Limbo
    Posts
    67
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    sure, I agree with u and wrote the same things about the long history of sexual "deviations" in the first page of this thread. in Italy for example we have a long history of "femminielli", trans women that were regarded sort of holy by the community and in more recent times (1800?) they were castrated in order to sing with a better high voice in the operas.

    so, yes, identifying with the opposite sex has always been a thing, but I do wonder, as I wrote in the other post under the same premise, if this would still be the case if genders were actually treated and could express themselves truly equally and freely. because, if everybody had the right to act as they wish, what would be the reasons to become something else?
    Ah gosh, I missed that, sorry. I know what you mean though. Have you read "Gender Trouble" by Judith Butler by chance? It kind of explores this question. Basically, its thesis is that gender is not something inherent within us, but rather primarily something we do/perform instead.

    But at the same time, even if transgenderism doesn't exist prior to gender (but rather a result of gender, another structure), I don't think that would negate its legitimacy. And most other queer/feminist theorists (excluding TERFs) would likely agree. Because gender, as it stands right now, is perhaps foremost an act of signification between an individual and society, I believe how that individual expresses themselves should be dictated by them, rather than subject to societal hegemony. If we think of the whole performance of gender like a play, where males and females have different roles, just because they're ultimately roles and imaginary doesn't mean that one of them isn't ultimately much more "our role to play." If the whole binary breaks down eventually (which is what I personally hope for), obviously there won't be a need for the concept--as these innate qualities in people won't need to be signified through the concept of gender. But as studies have shown, people identify as trans for so many different combinations of reasons, and there will inevitably be individuals who still feel they would be more comfortable with breasts or without a penis for example, even once the binary disintegrates. It's just that this act would no longer be considered "trans," but rather regarded simply as a natural part of normal life and biology. I haven't thought through this enough to clearly articulate my thoughts, so I'm sorry. But I hope that kinda makes sense
    Last edited by aciaradh; 02-12-2021 at 01:15 AM.

  18. #58
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    4,051
    Mentioned
    300 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @aciaradh

    yep, i agree entirely. my questions are more revolved to an utopia rather than "what is", i'm aware that we live in a human reality that is made of 2 primary genders and that their roles is important for merely basic reproductive reasons and this has always changed our culture and costumes etc, and in this reality we just have to accept that there are people who feel like they're born in the wrong body because their way of thinking and experiencing life is different from that of their peers with their same sex, and since they don't conform to that, they opt to be in the alternative, because belonging to a group is part of human nature ? idk, really it's a pretty mind breaking thing...

    as a woman who identifies as one, ive always wished my boobs were smaller, i wish i was all smaller, i hated my body, and still do tbh, so it's really mind blowing to think that there are people who have to add the gender-sex-identity pain in the ass to the pile of shit that every day life already presents ourselves with. my biggest empathy for this. but seriously can't stop thinking of how "it should be in an ideal world", even for these people to be in peace, why couldnt we just accept ourselves as we are, in the body we're given? it's the same question i make to myself everyday.

    the pharma thing is because of this too, because it's the fast way out, it's the easy solution for the current alternative. and it's so easy that it can go without thinking, appealing to those deep and new fears that all kids experience, and lately ive seen "so many" (not really so many but i think it's becoming more common) of them start transitioning where u would have never expected it from them. like a trend. smth to brag about, to get some insta love or smth. hm... like, usually u can tell when someone, like a man in front of u is particularly feminine, or a woman particularly masculine, and id expect these people to transition, not someone who's always behaved, posed, supported super feminine views, sometimes even exaggeratedly, and then they transition and im left really confused by this all and i think there's a lot of psycho confusion behind it.

  19. #59
    💩 Nobody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    TIM
    POOP™
    Posts
    441
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    also, it makes sense that someone's brain scans differ from other peoples' based even ONLY on their behaviors---because you're literally rewriting your brain AS YOU READ THIS by all your choices.

    Remember hearing how eyewitnesses remember about remembering about the situation they observed rather than remember the actual incident completely?

    This is a great thing....it's how we can manage trauma...it's how we can learn...it's how we grow our relationships and rethink our ideologies.

    People tried to tie the validity of being lbgtqia+ to whether someone's brainscan showed something distinct....there are many problems with that, not least of all that they can start targetting and harassing 'Kevin who says he's gay but whose brain is the same on scans as his brothers'. Then his well-meaning but religious parents, looking at the unproven supposition that ONLY the people with brains that look a certain way are REALLY gay, send Kevin to 'you're not gay, buddy' reprogramming camp and refuse to allow him to date males and disown him when he does as an adult because they think it's enabling his delusions.










    "Can You Tell Which Brains Are Male? Neither Can These Scientists

    Scientists who tried very hard to find distinct differences between male and female brains say they can’t do it.
    The volumes (green = large, yellow = small) of brain regions in 42 adults, showing the overlap between the forms that brains of females and brains of males can take.

    The volumes (green = large, yellow = small) of brain regions in 42 adults, showing the overlap between the forms that brains of females and brains of males can take. Image courtesy of Zohar Berman and Daphna Joel. / Tel Aviv University
    Nov. 30, 2015, 8:59 PM PST / Updated Nov. 30, 2015, 9:25 PM PST
    By Maggie Fox
    Scientists who tried very hard to find differences between male and female brains said they couldn’t do it — not with brain scans and not even by asking seemingly obvious questions such as whether someone likes boxing or worries about his or her mother.

    They couldn’t find any single pattern that distinguishes between a male brain and a female brain, and say only a very small percentage of people fall under clear all-male or all female brain patterns.

    “Our study demonstrates that although there are sex/gender differences in brain structure, brains do not fall into two classes, one typical of males and the other typical of females, nor are they aligned along a ‘male brain–female brain’ continuum,” Daphna Joel of Tel Aviv University and colleagues wrote.

    "Brains do not fall into two classes, one typical of males and the other typical of females."

    In fact, they found, most people are somewhere between clichéd ideas of male and female when it comes to brains, they said.

    Joel’s team looked at magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans of the brains of more than 1,400 people of all ages from around the world, including Americans, Chinese, Germans and Australians.

    They did find some regions of the brain that tended to indicate sex differences. But when they considered these regions together across all their brain scans, the picture just got muddy, they reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

    Anywhere between 23 percent and 53 percent of the MRIs had at least one region with a “male-end” score and one region with a “female-end” score, they found. And at the most, 8 percent of the brain scans showed someone whose brain regions all scored “male” or “female.”

    "There are very few individuals who are consistently at the ‘female-end’ or at the ‘male-end’."

    “Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain,” they wrote.

    Recommended

    WELLNESS
    Fall survival guide: COVID-19 safety advice, parenting tips, recipe ideas and more

    WELLNESS
    Best kid sunscreen from Neutrogena, Aveeno and more
    Other researchers have found some of the seemingly clear differences between male and female brains may be cultural rather than biological -- spatial sense, for instance.

    Just to be really certain, they looked at a study of 157 women and 106 men done at a large Midwestern university that was designed to tease out sex differences in thinking. It included subjects such a gambling, housework, playing golf, watching porn or cosmetics that could be considered about as stereotypical as possible when it comes to gender differences.

    Even there, they couldn’t find a consistent pattern that predicted whether someone was male or female.

    “In other words, even when considering highly stereotypical gender behaviors, there are very few individuals who are consistently at the ‘female-end’ or at the ‘male-end’, but there are many individuals who have both ‘female-end’ and ‘male-end’ characteristics,” they wrote."" https://www.nbcnews.com/better/welln...-these-n471751




    When it comes to whether someone's REALLY anything, believe people know themselves better than you do because it's incredibly unreasonable to believe otherwise in virtually all cases.Actively challenge disequity or bullying of or inconsiderate digging at ppl who are lbgtqia+ about their status. So what if Todd realises he's gay at a stage in his life that you are not used to people realizing that at? It's Todd's path. Some people don't really get into exploring their sexuality until they're older.


    But we can't cling to brainscans as some proof of someone not being stereotypically male enough to be heterosexual and thus being gay. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
    Oh jeez, the Western propaganda machine strikes again. Ignoring the obvious fact that sexual dysmorphism is a thing and anyone claiming that men and women's brains are going to be the same obviously has an agenda, let's look at some real research and not this Buzzfeed-esque thing you've linked here. And just for the record, nobody is saying the difference is going to huge. Humans share 99% DNA with chimpanzees, yet we are pretty distinctively different in our intelligence and appearance. If this article was actually scientific, it wouldn't look to support its hypothesis, it would explain how its hypothesis could be right AND WRONG and look at how the study could be biased or flawed and try to account for that. All things that actual research does and I'm going to link below.

    And yes, I'm slightly agitated that you posted this because it's bringing back memories of the asshats that want to suggest this is all made up or influenced by society or something. Like my god, I guess I know how gays must have felt when people claimed they could convert them straight with therapy or something. I mean, wow, just wow. People are so quick to discount what other people know about themselves, it's incredible.

    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes...20orientation.

    Brain structure[edit]

    General[edit]

    Several studies have found a correlation between gender identity and brain structure.[8] A first-of-its-kind study by Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region which is known for sex and anxiety responses (and which is affected by prenatal androgens),[9] cadavers of six persons who were described as having been male-to-female transsexual or transgender persons in life had female-normal BSTc size, similar to the study's cadavers of cisgender women. While those identified as transsexual had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including cadavers of non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still had sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.[10]
    In a follow-up study, Kruijver et al. (2000) looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MtF subject, who had never gone on hormones, was also included and matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.[11]
    In 2002, a follow-up study by Chung et al. found that significant sexual dimorphism (variation between sexes) in BSTc did not become established until adulthood. Chung et al. theorized that either changes in fetal hormone levels produce changes in BSTc synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content which later lead to size and neuron count changes in BSTc, or that the size of BSTc is affected by the generation of a gender identity inconsistent with one's assigned sex.[SUP][12][/SUP]
    It has been suggested that the BSTc differences may be due to the effects of hormone replacement therapy. It has also been suggested that because pedophilic offenders have also been found to have a reduced BSTc, a feminine BSTc may be a marker for paraphilias rather than transsexuality.[2]
    In a review of the evidence in 2006, Gooren confirmed the earlier research as supporting the concept of transsexuality as a sexual differentiation disorder of the sex dimorphic brain.[13] Dick Swaab (2004) concurs.[14]
    In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexuality was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al. (1995) and Kruijver et al. (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet regardless of hormone exposure, MtF transsexuals were within the female range and the FtM transsexual within the male range.[15]
    A 2009 MRI study by Luders et al. of 24 MtF transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones found that regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to those of cisgender men than to those of cisgender women, but there was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to cisgender men. Like earlier studies, it concluded that transsexuality was associated with a distinct cerebral pattern.[SUP][16][/SUP] (MRI allows easier study of larger brain structures, but independent nuclei are not visible due to lack of contrast between different neurological tissue types, hence other studies on e.g. BSTc were done by dissecting brains post-mortem.)
    An additional feature was studied comparing 18 female-to-male transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones with 24 male and 19 female gynephilic controls, using an MRI technique called diffusion tensor imaging or DTI.[17] DTI is a specialized technique for visualizing white matter of the brain, and white matter structure is one of the differences in neuroanatomy between men and women. The study took into account fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. Rametti et al. (2010) discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."[17] The white matter pattern in female-to-male transsexuals was found to be shifted in the direction of biological males.
    Hulshoff Pol et al. (2006) studied the gross brain volume of 8 male-to-female transsexuals and in six female-to-male transsexuals undergoing hormone treatment. They found that hormones changed the sizes of the hypothalamus in a gender consistent manner: treatment with male hormones shifted the hypothalamus towards the male direction in the same way as in male controls, and treatment with female hormones shifted the hypothalamus towards the female direction in the same way as female controls. They concluded: "The findings suggest that, throughout life, gonadal hormones remain essential for maintaining aspects of sex-specific differences in the human brain."[18]
    A 2016 review agreed with the other reviews when considering androphilic trans women and gynephilic trans men. It reported that hormone treatment may have large effects on the brain, and that cortical thickness, which is generally thicker in cisgender women's brains than in cisgender men's brains, may also be thicker in trans women's brains, but is present in a different location to cisgender women's brains.[2] It also stated that for both trans women and trans men, "cross-sex hormone treatment affects the gross morphology as well as the white matter microstructure of the brain. Changes are to be expected when hormones reach the brain in pharmacological doses. Consequently, one cannot take hormone-treated transsexual brain patterns as evidence of the transsexual brain phenotype because the treatment alters brain morphology and obscures the pre-treatment brain pattern."[2]
    Androphilic male-to-female transsexuals[edit]

    (edit: I'm going to stop bolding stuff because if people actually want to read it, they can and I'm pretty much bolding everything at this point to make my point)

    Studies have shown that androphilic male-to-female transsexuals show a shift towards the female direction in brain anatomy. In 2009, a German team of radiologists led by Gizewski compared 12 androphilic transsexuals with 12 cisgender males and 12 cisgender females. Using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), they found that when shown erotica, the cisgender men responded in several brain regions that the cisgender women did not, and that the sample of androphilic transsexuals was shifted towards the female direction in brain responses.[19]
    In another study, Rametti and colleagues used diffusion tensor imaging (DTI) to compare 18 androphilic male-to-female transsexuals with 19 gynephilic males and 19 androphilic cisgender females. The androphilic transsexuals differed from both control groups in multiple brain areas, including the superior longitudinal fasciculus, the right anterior cingulum, the right forceps minor, and the right corticospinal tract. The study authors concluded that androphilic transsexuals were halfway between the patterns exhibited by male and female controls.[20]
    A 2016 review reported that early-onset androphilic transgender women have a brain structure similar to cisgender women's and unlike cisgender men's, but that they have their own brain phenotype.[2]
    Gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals[edit]

    Research on gynephilic trans women is considerably limited.[2] While MRI taken on gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals have likewise shown differences in the brain from non-transsexuals, no feminization of the brain's structure have been identified.[2] Neuroscientists Ivanka Savic and Stefan Arver at the Karolinska Institute used MRI to compare 24 gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals with 24 cisgender male and 24 cisgender female controls. None of the study participants were on hormone treatment. The researchers found sex-typical differentiation between the MtF transsexuals and cisgender males, and the cisgender females; but the gynephilic transsexuals "displayed also singular features and differed from both control groups by having reduced thalamus and putamen volumes and elevated GM volumes in the right insular and inferior frontal cortex and an area covering the right angular gyrus".[21]
    The researchers concluded that:
    Contrary to the primary hypothesis, no sex-atypical features with signs of 'feminization' were detected in the transsexual group ... The present study does not support the dogma that [male-to-female transsexuals] have atypical sex dimorphism in the brain but confirms the previously reported sex differences. The observed differences between MtF-TR and controls raise the question as to whether gender dysphoria may be associated with changes in multiple structures and involve a network (rather than a single nodal area).[21]
    Berglund et al. (2008) tested the response of gynephilic MtF transsexuals to two steroids hypothesized to be sex pheromones: the progestin-like 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND) and the estrogen-like 1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST). Despite the difference in sexual orientation, the MtFs' hypothalamic networks activated in response to the AND pheromone, like the androphilic female control groups. Both groups experienced amygdala activation in response to EST. Gynephilic male control groups experienced hypothalamic activation in response to EST. However, the MtF subjects also experienced limited hypothalamic activation to EST. The researchers concluded that in terms of pheromone activation, MtFs occupy an intermediate position with predominantly female features.[22] The MtF transsexual subjects had not undergone any hormonal treatment at the time of the study, according to their own declaration beforehand, and confirmed by repeated tests of hormonal levels.[22]
    A 2016 review reported that gynephilic trans women differ from both cisgender male and female controls in non-dimorphic brain areas.[2]
    Gynephilic female-to-male transsexuals[edit]

    Fewer studies have been performed on the brain structure of transgender men than on transgender women.[2] A team of neuroscientists, led by Nawata in Japan, used a technique called single-photon emission computed tomography (SPECT) to compare the regional cerebral blood flow (rCBF) of 11 gynephilic FtM transsexuals with that of 9 androphilic cis females. Although the study did not include a sample of biological males so that a conclusion of "male shift" could be made, the study did reveal that the gynephilic FtM transsexuals showed significant decrease in blood flow in the left anterior cingulate cortex and a significant increase in the right insula, two brain regions known to respond during sexual arousal.[23]
    A 2016 review reported that the brain structure of early-onset gynephilic trans men generally corresponds to their assigned sex, but that they have their own phenotype with respect to cortical thickness, subcortical structures, and white matter microstructure, especially in the right hemisphere.[2] Morphological increments observed in the brains of trans men might be due to the anabolic effects of testosterone.[2]
    Prenatal androgen exposure[edit]

    Prenatal androgen exposure, the lack thereof, or poor sensitivity to prenatal androgens are commonly cited mechanisms to explain the above discoveries. To test this, studies have examined the differences between transsexuals and cisgender individuals in digit ratio (a generally accepted marker for prenatal androgen exposure). A meta-analysis concluded that the effect sizes for this association were small or nonexistent.[24]
    Congenital adrenal hyperplasia in persons with XX sex chromosomes results in what is considered to be excess exposure to prenatal androgens, resulting in masculinization of the genitalia and, typically, controversial prenatal hormone treatment[25] and postnatal surgical interventions.[26] Individuals with CAH are usually raised as girls and tend to have similar cognitive abilities to the typical female, including spatial ability, verbal ability, language lateralization, handedness and aggression. Research has shown that people with CAH and XX chromosomes will be more likely to be same sex attracted,[25] and at least 5.2% of these individuals develop serious gender dysphoria.[27]
    In males with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency, conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is disrupted, decreasing the masculinization of genitalia. Individuals with this condition are typically raised as females due to their feminine appearance at a young age. However, more than half of males with this condition raised as females become males later in their life. Scientists speculate that the definition of masculine characteristics during puberty and the increased social status afforded to men are two possible motivations for a female-to-male transition.[27]

    So whatever, I said my peace. Everyone can continue to pretend these things don't exist, that's it's just social conditioning or social contracts or some other weird thing people want to wish it away to. I don't care, but that's the actual science for anyone that's interested in a more objective truth about this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





  20. #60
    DeliMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    TIM
    IEI-N 5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    276
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ok, this thread has had a lot of excitement, lol. When I posted this thread I was trying to illustrate a specific facet of gender ideologies, but I was still ignorant of some things involving the relationship between gender and biology. A lot of posts here have discussed this relationship and helped me learn some things that I was previously unaware of, so I thank you all for that. Yet still, I had intended to touch on the more social facets of gender which have been barely grazed over in this thread, so I want to clarify some things I had in mind when creating the thread.

    Look at this link on "oversocialization": OVERSOCIALIZATION (Industrial Society and its Future) (xahlee.org)

    Years ago I began experiencing body dysmorphia/gender dysphoria (I don't anymore). At the height of this dysphoric experience I would feel a phantom awareness of female genitalia. Thing is, this experience of mine was the result of social causes rather than biological ones. Growing up, I was surrounded by people who said men do men things and women do women things, so the social conditioning allowed no room for a grey area. There is no clear limit to how far we can stretch gender past a biological basis so these gender notions would extend past biology and onto completely arbitrary ground.

    A few examples of the ideology in my social sphere:
    Men cook outdoors with grills whereas women cook indoors and use ovens
    Men drive trucks whereas women drive anything but trucks
    Men like football and boxing whereas women like volleyball and tennis
    Men wear clothes for utility whereas women where clothes for fashion
    Men don't like pink or purple whereas women do
    Men are cool and collected whereas women are emotive and dramatic
    Men like action movies whereas women like romantic comedies

    I could go on and on and on with this...

    Based on this, if one is properly socialized, they are expected to adhere to these conventions that in truth stray far beyond the buddy between your legs or anything else biological. For people who are properly socialized yet may break the society's gender code, there are feelings of dysphoria if one notices they broke the rules. It is also important to emphasize that when men are expected to do all of their respective things without deviation and women are expected to do all of their respective things without deviation, it creates this sort of "all or nothing" mentality. So when somebody breaks the code they are likely to experience some jolting vacillation of identity, and the shock alone is often enough to make people feel marginalized or like some sort of Frankenstein's monster, or even make them think they have done something immoral.

    That identity shock and "all or nothing" mentality can consequently lead to someone not identifying with their sex anymore (either in the presence or absence of a biological reason to do so as well, it doesn't matter). For some people, as I experienced, this can lead to phantom limb syndrome. I would get phantom awareness of a vagina I never had, and the detail of this awareness would increase as I learned more about vaginal anatomy (note: I did not will this to happen, it was automatic). The fact that the sensation could change based on knowledge of the anatomy indicates, at least for me, that this was not caused by my biology, but by my psychological state at the time.

    The "gender jolt" can be subtle and short in duration, but if recurrent becomes a nagging itch. This can lead to someone wanting to end the torture and just scratch that itch by transitioning, either sexually or ideologically or both, and forget the painful grey areas ignored by social conventions. This is what I meant when I said transgender people merely conform to typical gender norms in an inverse way. I see much of the direction in which gender ideology is headed as an extension of the norms rather than remodeling or dismantling them.

  21. #61
    BandD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    12,381
    Mentioned
    449 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is what I meant when I said transgender people merely conform to typical gender norms in an inverse way.


    Yeah I almost see it as a conservative thing in a sense because they are often adhering to what most heterosexual normative society thinks of as manly vs not manly etc. It is not at all really a breaking of boundaries of what men and women can do based on our genders/biological sex but a complete acceptance of them. Maybe there are trans people that aren't like this- but this is definitely how it's portrayed in the media and what I got from 'the movement's' message.

    But the fight for 'GLBT rights' has almost always been a very conservative Delta-ish thing when you think about it. The right to get married, the right to serve in the military, the right to be as assholeish as any 'straight guy' - these are all very right-wing things. The right to be a sex hound was a bit more liberal, but all that got was a negative reputation because of the AIDS and disease thing, and rightfully so. "Radical genderqueers" are made fun of in both sides of the aisle and not respected in a political sense. But even the mild genderqueer people aren't respected as it's just viewed on the road to being rainbow radical. It's like being 'a little bit retarded.' The dominant message is, you can be different- as long as you're trying to be the same.

    I only wanted the right to be myself without being bullied so much, I don't care about being equal to that heteronormative conservative crap. Kind of ironic but I don't feel unmanly at all even though I am so stereotypically unmanly in many ways according to straight society lol. Delta SJWisms never really worked for me because I never wanted to be included in something straight- I truly like being GAY or QUEER - as in being different. Gays accepted in the heterosexual framework of life- mehhh. That makes me vomit kind of. Gays and straights aren't 'equal.' If we were equal- there would be no straight or gay to begin with. So I kinda hate that saying. But some people think that if you don't think you're 'equal' to something- that means you intrinsically think that you are either below or above that thing which is not true as people aren't 2nd grade math problems. I can peacefully co-exist around straight people, and I don't think it's a better or worse thing (gahh Delta Fi valuers...) - but I'm not EQUAL to them.

    Now I have the option to marry, or serve in the military - or be a conservative gay man if I wanted to but I don't want any of those things.... so I can't feel that empowered if we 'won' some conservative battle that only affected a Delta ST gay man and not me. Forgive me that I can't get all thrilled about that shit. But anyway sorry for going off topic as this thread is about trans not gay guys.

  22. #62
    Ксеркс, царь царей xerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Miniluv
    Posts
    7,071
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Honestly, it's more conceivable than not that one day, perhaps in our lifetimes, we'll have the technology to alter humans beings at the level of DNA, at which point the differences between a "person" and a "transperson" become impenetrably metaphysical and abstract, even for some treatises on philosophy.

    Science may never advance to that stage. Or, transsexualism could simply be a passing trend that never reappears to cause controversy; an unusual manifestation of what is otherwise a wildly overstated human desire for self-expression. I personally doubt both of these claims, but I guess we'll see.

    Regardless, issues that are irresolvable by debate are resolved one way or another. A very clever observation I once heard was this: if philosophers can't decide an answer to a question, engineers and investors will. That's a succinct characterization of our own time whether or not it continues to be the case.
    Last edited by xerx; 02-15-2021 at 05:38 AM.

  23. #63
    Haikus SGF's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    ┌П┐(ಠ_ಠ)
    TIM
    LSI-H™
    Posts
    2,169
    Mentioned
    181 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post

    Yeah I almost see it as a conservative thing in a sense because they are often adhering to what most heterosexual normative society thinks of as manly vs not manly etc. It is not at all really a breaking of boundaries of what men and women can do based on our genders/biological sex but a complete acceptance of them. Maybe there are trans people that aren't like this- but this is definitely how it's portrayed in the media and what I got from 'the movement's' message.

    But the fight for 'GLBT rights' has almost always been a very conservative Delta-ish thing when you think about it. The right to get married, the right to serve in the military, the right to be as assholeish as any 'straight guy' - these are all very right-wing things. The right to be a sex hound was a bit more liberal, but all that got was a negative reputation because of the AIDS and disease thing, and rightfully so. "Radical genderqueers" are made fun of in both sides of the aisle and not respected in a political sense. But even the mild genderqueer people aren't respected as it's just viewed on the road to being rainbow radical. It's like being 'a little bit retarded.' The dominant message is, you can be different- as long as you're trying to be the same.

    I only wanted the right to be myself without being bullied so much, I don't care about being equal to that heteronormative conservative crap. Kind of ironic but I don't feel unmanly at all even though I am so stereotypically unmanly in many ways according to straight society lol. Delta SJWisms never really worked for me because I never wanted to be included in something straight- I truly like being GAY or QUEER - as in being different. Gays accepted in the heterosexual framework of life- mehhh. That makes me vomit kind of. Gays and straights aren't 'equal.' If we were equal- there would be no straight or gay to begin with. So I kinda hate that saying. But some people think that if you don't think you're 'equal' to something- that means you intrinsically think that you are either below or above that thing which is not true as people aren't 2nd grade math problems. I can peacefully co-exist around straight people, and I don't think it's a better or worse thing (gahh Delta Fi valuers...) - but I'm not EQUAL to them.

    Now I have the option to marry, or serve in the military - or be a conservative gay man if I wanted to but I don't want any of those things.... so I can't feel that empowered if we 'won' some conservative battle that only affected a Delta ST gay man and not me. Forgive me that I can't get all thrilled about that shit. But anyway sorry for going off topic as this thread is about trans not gay guys.
    fighting for rights is like begging for approval from one's parents instead of having the power to just be oneself and accepting that the world might reject that. There is no freedom there. There is also no charm or romance in being open and accepted.
    Last edited by SGF; 02-15-2021 at 12:52 PM.

  24. #64

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,093
    Mentioned
    107 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post

    [COLOR=#333333]It's a generalization but it's not totally untrue. Is that comment about pedophilia supposed to get under my skin? Because it doesn't. Perhaps it's true that the gay community has a problem with pedophilia than other communities. So? We should fix that and stop avoiding it just because it's a not very pc thing to say. It doesn't mean gays aren't worthy of respect and love as a whole, obviously.


    A) both the generalization about women and the one about gay people are untrue and not just untrue but put both groups in the crosshairs of violent usually men. And that's not the only reason to not spread the myths. The other reason is ANYONE can be into a confident and unhealthy person (like for instance you have been into confident but unhealthy ppl) without (you) being a woman. And ANYONE can be a pedophile (without being gay). And another reason not to spread the myth--that these diverse groups of people (women and also gay ppl) are somehow monoliths that INHERENTLY have this one unhealthy behavior--is that there is so much research...so much...oodles of research....research for days...showing people start treating them DIFFERENTLY based on you spreading the myth---AND THEY TREAT THEMSELVES DIFFERENTLY BASED ON THESE NEGATIVE MYTHS.


    B) Also, I'm the forum member who fucking deconstructed the bullshit argument and went and researched and hunted what I suspected could be there: a fucking mathematical analysis that clearly demonstrates that gay people are not more likely to be pedos and that it's been shitty misinterpretations (jumping to conclusions) and broad generalizations and fed with general homohate (analogous to systemic sexism and misogynystic culture) which TOGETHER have been perpetuating and propping up this myth that gay people are more likely to fucking molest kids. That has an impact on a gay person growing up to hear that.

    And when I talk about having someone's back, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about: someone going and dispelling that and step in front of snowballing myths that are rolling around and disparaging someone who's gay, ats opposed to the other path: helping the unhealthy myth get spread.


    And it's something you have done by taking your own self-admitted attraction to a few confident SLE who also were, regretably, not self-directed enough to make a good life with you instead of getting arrested and then you extrapolating that one pattern you USED TO HAVE and saying ALL WOMEN HAVE THIS PATTERN and not only that they exhibit it but that it's MAGICALLY inherent in women.

    And the pause followed by a firm 'but the myth is there for a reason' is so far beneath you. You're more cognitively incisive than this. You're more interested in truth than this, and I am disappointed and feel let down. I'm not saying you're evil or something. I don't believe people are evil. That doesn't make sense. You are causing harm.

    I am not expecting you to react like 'bow down to nanashi,' and I don't expect you to have my back. You didn't sign up for that, and it's unfair of me to expect someone to go to the lengths for me I would for them. You direct your own life, and I'm glad you do.

    But I'm not going to stand here and not point out that you're spreading evil things about women that have serious consequences for real people right now. This has been my point all along...that you spreading this 'women are all this way and inherently so' myth has heinous consequences for a lot of them and shapes how they are seen and how society responds to them.
    Last edited by nanashi; 02-15-2021 at 06:39 PM.

  25. #65
    DeliMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    TIM
    IEI-N 5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    276
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @nanashi @BandD

    Ya’ll got me like then got me like Oh but then I’m like

  26. #66
    BandD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    12,381
    Mentioned
    449 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    And that's not the only reason to not spread the myths. The other reason is ANYONE can be into a confident and unhealthy person (like for instance you have been into confident but unhealthy ppl)


    The person I was into was unhealthy but I wouldn't call him confident by a long shot. He was pretty insecure, and that was part of why I liked him. I'm NOT ATTRACTED TO CONFIDENT PEOPLE like some people are, that thing u spread about confidence being universal appealing just isn't true.

    And another reason not to spread the myth--that these diverse groups of people (women and also gay ppl) are somehow monoliths that INHERENTLY have this one unhealthy behavior--is that there is so much research...so much...oodles of research....research for days...showing people start treating them DIFFERENTLY based on you spreading the myth---AND THEY TREAT THEMSELVES DIFFERENTLY BASED ON THESE NEGATIVE MYTHS.

    I'm kinda curious about this from a logical standpoint but I don't think we are going to get anywhere if people are too emotional about this. Of course there will be much more heterosexual pedophiles as there are more str8s but I don't really see it being linked to straight or gay but kind of a perverse sexuality in and of itself as from what I know, pedophiles don't really have any inherent gender bias. They usually prefer minor kids regardless if it's a boy or girl so "technically" they're bisexual. Proportionally even if it was proven that gays are more likely to be pedophiles - that wouldn't mean gays are inherently bad people. Just the ones that decide to go after kids. That was my point- which u don't seem to be getting. A minority can have something 'wrong' objectively occur more often and a higher rate within their population - but still be worthy of equal treatment under the law... a higher occurrence or rate doesn't mean it 'it will happen for sure if you are that minority group.' Do you have any data from unbiased sources that state heterosexuals are more likely to molest kids?

    And when I talk about having someone's back, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about
    : someone going and dispelling that and step in front of snowballing myths that are rolling around and disparaging someone who's gay, ats opposed to the other path: helping the unhealthy myth get spread.
    Fair enough, but again- even if it was proven that gays are more likely to molest kids that isn't some sound arguement that gay = bad just like it doesn't mean black = bad because something like 80% of the prison population is black males. Cruelty is I think a negative trait that might have originated more in women - but it doesn't mean women = bad. I understand it's an emotionally charged issue as it's so serious and detrimental but logically that makes no sense. I would say pedophiles are technically bisexual- and nobody says pedos make bis look bad. The official data is it's usually "straight" people doing it but I'd say with real pedos it's more about the age than the gender.

    And it's something you have done by taking your own self-admitted attraction to a few confident SLE who also were, regretably, not self-directed enough to make a good life with you instead of getting arrested and then you extrapolating that one pattern you USED TO HAVE and saying ALL WOMEN HAVE THIS PATTERN and not only that they exhibit it but that it's MAGICALLY inherent in women.
    Well the guy I talk a lot that I think is SLE could very well be my activity partner or even my identical (although activity is much more likely) He's really kinda shy and introverted for a SLE anyway- although it is possible for SLEs to be shy, he is pretty introverted so the SLE typing was probably bad and me wanting to idealize things because I liked him so much. I don't just get my SLE bad boy = headed for prison joke material from that one guy but multiple men I know lol. It's a stereotype, but I think in some instances Fi polr & high egoic Se can very well lead to that...

    More than anything it's a JOKE though - you don't seem to know what a joke is or have the same kind of humor I do.

    I don't think I said all women have this pattern... but many if not most do. According to wikipedia, 97% of heterosexual women prefer submissive roles during sex. How do you explain that? Is wikipedia against women now??? lol. I kinda agree with other people's assessment of you, if something is not 100% light and holy you seem to not know how to take it.

    And the pause followed by a firm 'but the myth is there for a reason' is so far beneath you. You're more cognitively incisive than this. You're more interested in truth than this, and I am disappointed and feel let down. I'm not saying you're evil or something. I don't believe people are evil. That doesn't make sense. You are causing harm.
    I don't think it causes harm- truth and facts that don't necessarily line up with the Illuminati PC version of events shouldn't necessarily 'be harmful.' Cuz again- a minority can have something dark or negative occur more often within that population and still be worthy of respect. We should treat minorities well even though they aren't Disney Mary Sues IRL.... I'm not a pedophile, but I also shouldn't have to pretend to be perfect or without flaws before a bigot decides to give me equal treatment under the law or not bash my brain in. That's all I'm saying. You seem to be arguing that people need to be "perfect" before they get respect from society- and I don't agree with that right-wing conservative assessment. Gay guys have been trying to play the 'good little maid' thing for ages so people would like us better- and it doesn't seem to work. If somebody wants to hate you- they're gonna hate you no matter how 'good' you pretend to be, so I think it's not right that gays do this so much.

    But I guess we have to keep virtue signaling and playing this I'm morally better game with people in order to win kudos points for society and I don't like playing that game because it's very, very fake. Imo, we as a society should recognize Shadow traits in groups of people without it provoking us so much or going crazy about it. If you don't agree the shadow traits are there- well there are still some where it should be recognized without it being a big deal. If I can only get respect as a gay man of this fake 100% positive story that isn't true.... I don't think I want that kind of respect as it's based on a lie. ((don't mean the pedo thing, just saying in general...)) It's more of the same 'bandd helped pick me out these fabulous lime green curtains for my new living room but I still think he's a filthy sinner that's headed for hell.' Lololol.

    As Marilyn Monroe said if somebody can't handle me at my worst they don't deserve my best either.
    Last edited by BandD; 02-15-2021 at 09:28 PM.

  27. #67
    Ксеркс, царь царей xerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Miniluv
    Posts
    7,071
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If an ugly person — someone born with hardcoded genes that gave them recognizably ugly features — got extensive plastic surgery to look beautiful, is it still objectively correct to call this person ugly?
    Last edited by xerx; 03-11-2021 at 06:10 AM.

  28. #68
    squark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,781
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    If an ugly person — someone born with hardcoded genes that gave them recognizably ugly features — got extensive plastic surgery to look beautiful, is it still objectively correct to call this person ugly?
    You make a lot of comparisons between things that don't quite fit together - idk what that is. For a more apt comparison -- someone with Down's syndrome, or William's syndrome could theoretically get plastic surgery to look as though they do not have these syndromes, but they still have those syndromes. Another example: If you have blue eyes and wear brown contact lenses, you're a blue-eyed person wearing brown contact lenses, not a brown-eyed person.

    Phenotype can be disguised, but the genotype is still there.

  29. #69
    Haikus SGF's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    ┌П┐(ಠ_ಠ)
    TIM
    LSI-H™
    Posts
    2,169
    Mentioned
    181 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    If an ugly person — someone born with hardcoded genes that gave them recognizably ugly features — got extensive plastic surgery to look beautiful, is it still objectively correct to call this person ugly?
    TFW people sell you a modded and cleaned up hunk of junk..

  30. #70
    Ксеркс, царь царей xerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Miniluv
    Posts
    7,071
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    You make a lot of comparisons between things that don't quite fit together - idk what that is. For a more apt comparison -- someone with Down's syndrome, or William's syndrome could theoretically get plastic surgery to look as though they do not have these syndromes, but they still have those syndromes. Another example: If you have blue eyes and wear brown contact lenses, you're a blue-eyed person wearing brown contact lenses, not a brown-eyed person.

    Phenotype can be disguised, but the genotype is still there.
    You've articulated the anti-trans case well, here and in other posts, and you make some good points.

    So, where would I disagree? WRT ugliness: it's a genotype as well as a phenotype. The genes that control appearance also don't change when someone is surgically enhanced. This person may only be good looking artificially, but they're still good looking.

    But more than that, a sex reassignment operation goes deeper than cosmetic surgery. It also involves pumping someone full of biochemistry-modifying hormones. The analogue to that, WRT to a mentally-challenged person, is to give them a daily "brain pill" that modifies their neuronal firing patterns. The person's genotype hasn't changed, but it has been suppressed and controlled. And while it would be inauthentic to call this person normal, it would also be inauthentic to call them mentally-challenged.

    So which is this person's real identity? Honestly, while I lean in the direction of the social-constructionist (pro-trans) camp, I'm pretty unsure. The philosophical problem is irresolvable because "identity" is impossible to define to begin with: sometimes it's something intrinsic and inalienable; other times it's something you earn or which is granted to you; and, increasingly, "intrinsicness" is itself a modifiable quality. There is no definition of identity that's consistent across all the different analogies that people use to make comparisons with transsexualism.
    Last edited by xerx; 03-12-2021 at 08:23 AM.

  31. #71

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,605
    Mentioned
    264 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The confusion arises from the fact that both the current pro-transgenderism and anti-transgenderism are wrong. Neither are attempting to take gender as a psychological issue.

    Current transgenderism attempts to evade the question by saying that gender is a subjective social construct, and therefore meaningless to discuss gender at all. Or they would say that if the outward appearance is "male" or "female", then that becomes the gender. So it's only a matter of having a sex-change operation.

    Anti-transgenderism says that only biological sex is what matters, and denies the fact that there could be psychological gender at all. Or perhaps there is, but somehow the psychological gender is intrinsically linked to the biological sex that you're born with. I would find this argument to be somewhat unconvincing.

    Either way, transgenderism needs to come up with what the psychological gender even are. And that biological sex and psychological gender are two different things that need to be treated separately. Ironically, both the transgenderism and anti-transgenderism are Behaviorist, as in they're ignoring the internal, psychological qualities of a person. You also cannot deny the psychological reality that exist within people's consciousness.

  32. #72
    squark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,781
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    But more than that, a sex reassignment operation goes deeper than cosmetic surgery. It also involves pumping someone full of biochemistry-modifying hormones. The analogue to that, WRT to a mentally-challenged person, is to give them a daily "brain pill" that modifies their neuronal firing patterns. The person's genotype hasn't changed, but it has been suppressed and controlled. And while it would be inauthentic to call this person normal, it would also be inauthentic to call them mentally-challenged.
    Sigh, a diabetic taking insulin is still a diabetic. A mentally-challenged person taking a "brain pill" still has cognitive issues. And someone with hypothyroidism doesn't cease having hypothyroidism when they take thyroid hormone. To say it's "inauthentic" to recognize this is pretty far out there.

  33. #73
    Ксеркс, царь царей xerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Miniluv
    Posts
    7,071
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Sigh, a diabetic taking insulin is still a diabetic. A mentally-challenged person taking a "brain pill" still has cognitive issues. And someone with hypothyroidism doesn't cease having hypothyroidism when they take thyroid hormone. To say it's "inauthentic" to recognize this is pretty far out there.
    A compact car whose body was replaced with a monster truck body is a monster truck.

  34. #74
    squark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,781
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    A compact car whose body was replaced with a monster truck body is a monster truck.
    Cars aren't people and don't have genetics. This is what I meant when I said you keep making comparisons that really don't work very well.

  35. #75
    Ксеркс, царь царей xerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Miniluv
    Posts
    7,071
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Cars aren't people and don't have genetics. This is what I meant when I said you keep making comparisons that really don't work very well.
    But the principle is the same whether its a car or a human being: we already accept that some things can change their fundamental character because of a few exterior modifications. The fact that we choose not to apply this principle to gender is a choice, not because of some natural law.

  36. #76
    squark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,781
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    But the principle is the same whether its a car or a human being: we already accept that some things can change their fundamental character because of a few exterior modifications. The fact that we choose not to apply this principle to gender is a choice, not because of some natural law.
    No. The principle is not the same at all. If you want to use cars as an example, how about putting a body kit and fake badges on a car -- doesn't change the motor inside it. Looks like something else, but isn't. You can't take that car with the fake badges on it out to the track and expect it to perform like the car it's trying to copy. It looks like it, but it's not it.

  37. #77

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,093
    Mentioned
    107 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post


    "Women are more emotional and males are more logical." Of course that's a crude, not totally true stereotype but it's a stereotype for a reason. No disrespect but you prove that stereotype right here yourself with how often every single day you blow up and get angry at what people post... if you want to be respected as a T type I really wish you wouldn't emotionally lose your cool so much.

    Fe being thought of as 'feminine' really isn't a big deal to me - although it is simplistic and overly general and kind of elementary school kiddish. Which part of me doesn't mind because I think that's better than being some faux-intellectual with a ruler up their ass at all times. (Not saying you are acting that way that comment wasn't directed towards you, but some people here do.) It was just some silly video to laugh at not psychoanalyze weirdly...



    Fe relates to femininity not 'womanish' as obviously there is mannish woman. But even those women seem to feel things deeply and make decisions based on their emotions... they probably are still more logical than me mind you, but then again so is a throw pillow from Good Will.

    lol. like men are never angry. like anger is a female instead of HUMAN emotion.
    Like rage at seeing you perpetuate misogyny isn't reasonable.

    god, BandD, you just shit on the floor all over the place with this stuff. it's so surprising to me. I keep expecting more of you. That's why it weirds me out.

  38. #78

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,093
    Mentioned
    107 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    not sure if everyone has deets on intersexuality and how common it is biologically:

    https://isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex/

  39. #79

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,093
    Mentioned
    107 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    people keep conflating personality types or traits with biological sex. cultural myths, my peeps. you can stop now.

  40. #80

    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Limbo
    Posts
    67
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    No. The principle is not the same at all. If you want to use cars as an example, how about putting a body kit and fake badges on a car -- doesn't change the motor inside it. Looks like something else, but isn't. You can't take that car with the fake badges on it out to the track and expect it to perform like the car it's trying to copy. It looks like it, but it's not it.
    I don't really want to get into a whole discussion about it, as I could write for hours about this and I don't think it would convince you anyway..But gender is not ontological--it is performative, a nexus between the individual and society. If you want to talk about stripping things down to their essence without the frills and glamour, it'd be worth noting that trans people as a general rule show brain patterns much more in line with those of the sex/gender they identify as (of course sex and gender are not the same thing whatsoever, but this simplifies it nicely for those who don't want to go down that rabbit hole). The right to self-determination is a wonderful thing; what I don't understand is how so many people who are supposedly pillars and bastions of personal liberty and freedom fail to recognize that people should have a right to choose what role they play in society. I understand as well that not everyone will recognize trans people's identities as valid. But LGBTQ+ identities have been notoriously stigmatized and treated as mental illnesses for so long, and if one looks at the medical history of how such orientations and identities have been treated (i.e. not correctly, in service of religious dogma and supporting the traditional order of things), it's so easy to see that the majority of trans stigmatization is a holdover from that.

    One of the best ways to break it down though is to look at the margins. Roughly 1 to 2 out of every one hundred individuals born in the U.S. is intersex. If sex is the only thing that makes up gender, and somehow one's mind by its very essence must be one thing or another as defined by their physical anatomy, how should these people be categorized? It just demonstrates how arbitrary, baseless, and ridiculous anti-trans arguments are, as there is a multiplicity of individuals who biologically-speaking do not "fit in" to the binary. You don't have to respond, and I don't even really expect/need you to as I don't have the emotional energy for this. And I'm sorry if this is all gibberish as it's late; but hopefully that makes a little sense at least, even if you disagree.
    Last edited by aciaradh; 03-14-2021 at 12:26 AM. Reason: clarity

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •