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Thread: Clarifying Ni PoLR

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    Default Clarifying Ni PoLR

    This is one of the PoLRs I have the most difficult time understanding. It is also the result of finding, itself, well, hard to understand.

    Points of confusion:

    1. Commonly PoLR is cited as, lack of maneuverability/grace in handling time. This is contrary to personal experience, especially in the case of LSEs. In my experience they are usually extremely punctual, more so than doms themselves usually due to rationality and a characteristic great work ethic. They (talking about LSEs mostly bc of more exp) seem to have no issue planning short term. Long term planning in terms of handling finance, retirement, career advancement are also usually better off managed than your average Joe.

    2. Anxiety over time management is not something I have seen in xSEs. Again they tend towards responsibility and the "fretting over the clock" is just a behavior I find absent. xSEs don't tend to very anxious people in general.


    Here are some thoughts on the true nature of Ni PoLR, for which the above may or may not be symptoms of:


    1. Difficulty forming frames of context outside of conventional ones. ESEs are a colorful whirlwind but are rigidly stuck "playing" themselves, as characters. By this I mean, in comparison, IEIs can be social chameleons due to the Ni allowing them to tap into an intuitive relationship with archetypes, resulting in the ability to play different roles and characters. ESEs are not capable of this. They are unable to wield mystique. As stated above, LSEs are competent with managing and arranging material aspects of reality for their benefit, but only within a certain frame or context that society has allowed them from the lenses of preexisting knowledge. Like, staying on top of things at school and work, including time-wise. There are tons of preexisting resources for doing so. ILIs are capable of independently seeing beyond, and intellectually able to "mine" out new exploitable trends when in reality they are simply seeing what is already there, uncovering the veil. They are not constrained by previous knowledge. If an LSE is told directly these trends, they can incorporate it as a "fact" for their own benefit, but mining trends directly by themselves? They are incapable of it.

    2. This can lead to obtuseness/stubbornness. They tend to feel confused when people reject their Fe/Te assistance as unhelpful. Because when people reject their help, they are rejecting the Si lifestyle they are providing.

    ESE/LSE number one strength comes in the ability to create a safe, nurturing territory for loved ones should they choose to do so. Competent protection from nasty comes at the cost of being "stuck" in their perspective time-wise. Examples of what I mean by safe Si territory: An LSE using their Te to maximize work profits in order to provide a comfortable lifestyle for their family, an ESE providing a steady stream of Fe to create a safe and warm emotional atmosphere for their loved ones.

    It's my opinion that this PoLR is probably the least noticeable out right in terms of behavior. Compare it to Fe or Se PoLR for example. This is due to the extremely subtle nature of Ni, and how most people probably can't perceive when someone is stuck in time perspective unless it results in funny/weird behavior. Humans are extremely competent at noticing strangeness, but the opposite is also true. What we associate with PoLR is typically weakness, and what we associate with weakness is strangeness/deficient oddity. In a memorable form preferably involving the five senses. In those terms Ni PoLR is very difficult to observe.
    Last edited by Eli; 02-06-2021 at 04:18 PM.




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    Good post. I've been wondering the same thing. So, I don't have much to add, but I would like to mention that I think noticeability of a PoLR is relative to the observer's strengths/weaknesses as Ni-PoLR is very obvious to me.

    also
    I don't think Ni has much to do with time, and neither does punctuality. I'm personally often late and have a knack for losing track of time, but I still always know which direction I'm going in,within time, if that makes sense. Details such as the empirical time has nothing to do with me though. I'm often slightly anxious about punctuality because that has to do with something concrete, specific, apart from myself. Kind of more Si than Ni to me. All the Si egos I've known are very punctual.

    I see Ni more as a strength in narrative (which operates through time, I guess) and perspectives (at least.. beta Ni is).

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    Ni polr was the first polr I was able to observe. I think it was one of the easiest to learn, maybe because I am Ni role.

    - uncertainty about the flow of events, or too confident
    - doesn't like to just "let things happen", alternatively will pronounce their easygoingness
    - will either explain things too detailed or with not enough detail
    - poor understanding of causality or too sensitive about causality
    - hates approaching deadlines
    - sometimes will order people to do what they are already doing

    these things will not always be observable, but there is a certain "mood" surrounding these things in Ni polrs.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    @Tallmo

    Not to nitpick, but I don't understand how "hates approaching deadlines" is a Ni PoLR thing. It can be applied to so many people and types it can be likened to breathing air.

    Explaining things in too many details/not enough makes me think more of weak Ti. Difficulty and lack of confidence in quickly conceptualizing/organizing factual data in a cohesive manner.

    Disliking unpredictable random atmosphere makes me think more of unvalued Ne and Fe.

    Ordering people around seems like a feature of 4D unconscious Se rather than something caused by the absence of Ni ability specifically.
    Last edited by Eli; 02-06-2021 at 04:46 PM.




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    [QUOTE=Eli;1431019]@Tallmo
    Not to nitpick, but I don't understand how "hates approaching deadlines" is a Ni PoLR thing. It can be applied to so many people and types it can be likened to breathing air. The alternative would be saying that Ni doms likes approaching deadlines, which is equally untrue.
    When a deadline gets closer you have to adjust your speed of work, and that activates Ni. What to focus on and not to focus on. It's a really complicated dynamic thing.

    Explaining things in too many details/not enough makes me think more of weak Ti.
    How do we really decide what to include in a process? We have to have some kind of mental image to go by.

    Ordering people around seems like a feature of 4D unconscious Se rather than something caused by the absence of Ni ability specifically.
    Ni polrs can have a hard time seeing that things are already happening. Dynamic intuitive reading of the situation.

    As I said, it can manifest itself in these things, but not necessarily. You have to observe real situations to get a feel for it.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    When a deadline gets closer you have to adjust your speed of work, and that activates Ni. What to focus on and not to focus on. It's a really complicated dynamic thing.
    Deadline anxiety cited as common symptom is Ni PoLR just rubs me the wrong way... let me think more on why and come back later.

    edit: Okay. So, Ni type forecast is a valuable asset when it comes to environments that have an element of unpredictability, and danger. Because intuition is needed to fill in the gaps, and danger means there's a low margin for error. When you think of "deadline", that is something that requires planning, prioritizing tasks and structuring them throughout a linear time frame. I think that xSEs are perfectly capable of doing that (planning on how to spend their energy/resources throughout a predictable timeframe). The definition of deadline really just means a marker for when a task should be completed. Your typical deadline really just means: turning in something at school or work, something quite mundane like that. In most cases it doesn't really tick the "unpredictable" and "dangerous" box. The structure (academia, office, etc.) that most deadlines are created within means that resource is usually somewhat abundant. If anything, deadlines create a predictability that might appeal to low intuitives. Now, if there was a lack of resource, guide, predictability, and option, that's where the Ni PoLR might start freaking the fuck out. But deadlines themselves are just indicators, for which the context inside, could be, well, anything. The context could require a large amount of Ni or a low amount, so deadlines themselves are mostly arbitrary.

    However I agree that Ni doms have a quite relaxed attitude towards deadlines usually.... I think that this is due to them having a big picture sense of danger. Missing a deadline itself means nothing unless it truly affects the big picture...
    Last edited by Eli; 02-06-2021 at 04:45 PM.




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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    I'm often slightly anxious about punctuality because that has to do with something concrete, specific, apart from myself. Kind of more Si than Ni to me. All the Si egos I've known are very punctual.
    Punctuality has nothing to do with Si, as far as I know. Everyone can be punctual. Forgetting what was said and whole chunks of important events or information that I should be able to remember I’ve always linked to weak Ni and weak Te in my case. I function like a PTSD patient, basically. Getting on my toes if I have to track a long process can be weak Ni or due to being process type (it becomes harder to the process in the end), take your pick.
    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Good post. I've been wondering the same thing. So, I don't have much to add, but I would like to mention that I think noticeability of a PoLR is relative to the observer's strengths/weaknesses as Ni-PoLR is very obvious to me.

    also
    I don't think Ni has much to do with time, and neither does punctuality. I'm personally often late and have a knack for losing track of time, but I still always know which direction I'm going in,within time, if that makes sense. Details such as the empirical time has nothing to do with me though. I'm often slightly anxious about punctuality because that has to do with something concrete, specific, apart from myself. Kind of more Si than Ni to me. All the Si egos I've known are very punctual.

    I see Ni more as a strength in narrative (which operates through time, I guess) and perspectives (at least.. beta Ni is).
    I am constantly late. I love the 'wizard always arrives precisely when (s)he means to' line
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli View Post
    This is one of the PoLRs I have the most difficult time understanding. It is also the result of finding, itself, well, hard to understand.

    Points of confusion:

    1. Commonly PoLR is cited as, lack of maneuverability/grace in handling time. This is contrary to personal experience, especially in the case of LSEs. In my experience they are usually extremely punctual, more so than doms themselves usually due to rationality and a characteristic great work ethic. They (talking about LSEs mostly bc of more exp) seem to have no issue planning short term. Long term planning in terms of handling finance, retirement, career advancement are also usually better off managed than your average Joe.

    2. Anxiety over time management is not something I have seen in xSEs. Again they tend towards responsibility and the "fretting over the clock" is just a behavior I find absent. xSEs don't tend to very anxious people in general.


    Here are some thoughts on the true nature of Ni PoLR, for which the above may or may not be symptoms of:


    1. Difficulty forming frames of context outside of conventional ones. ESEs are a colorful whirlwind but are rigidly stuck "playing" themselves, as characters. By this I mean, in comparison, IEIs can be social chameleons due to the Ni allowing them to tap into an intuitive relationship with archetypes, resulting in the ability to play different roles and characters. ESEs are not capable of this. It often takes the form of appearing as a normie. As stated above, LSEs are competent with managing and arranging material aspects of reality for their benefit, but only within a certain frame or context that society has allowed them from the lenses of preexisting knowledge. Like, staying on top of things at school and work. ILIs are capable of independently seeing beyond, and intellectually able to "mine" out new exploitable trends when in reality they are simply seeing what is already there, uncovering the veil. They are not constrained by previous knowledge. If an LSE is told directly these trends, they can incorporate it as a "fact" for their own benefit, but mining trends by themselves? They are incapable of it.

    2. This can lead to obtuseness/stubbornness. They tend to feel confused when people reject their Fe/Te assistance as unhelpful.

    ESE/LSE number one strength comes in the ability to create a safe, nurturing territory for loved ones should they choose to do so. Competent protection from nasty comes at the cost of being "stuck" in their perspective time-wise.

    It's my opinion that this PoLR is probably the least noticeable out right in terms of behavior. Compare it to Fe or Se PoLR for example. This is due to the extremely subtle nature of Ni, and how most people probably can't perceive when someone is stuck in time perspective unless it results in funny/weird behavior. Humans are extremely competent at noticing strangeness, but the opposite is also true. What we associate with PoLR is typically weakness, and what we associate with weakness is strangeness/deficient oddity. In a memorable form preferably involving the five senses. In those terms Ni PoLR is very difficult to observe.
    what ive noticed in ESE-Sis is that their gut feel always seems to expect the worst, even when its not really realistic to think so. I agree, for me its also not exactly clear how it manifests but like ne polr or low intuition i think its having trouble handling ambiguity and uncertainty. how it differs from ne polr i cant tell.

    Ive seen an ESE-Si double down on her negativity towards an approaching task she had to perform. We were in training to be customer service employees, and the ''deadline'' was approaching indeed. We were supposed to start taking calls in a few days, and she kept insisting that it would be disastrous. I think its a combination of underestimating her skill/capacity to perform this work (low Te) + low Ni making her gut feel completely off. Ive seen her take her first call and it went fine lol. (i think her low Te also played a part, having Ni Te in superego block). She was convinced she couldnt do it. and being all negative about it. Not the first time ive seen an ESE-Si be so negative about going out their comfort zone.
    Last edited by Number 9 large; 02-05-2021 at 11:58 PM.
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    ill just add some sources:

    Descriptions of the Weak Functions:
    Ni – Vulnerable function. LSE painfully experiences any type of uncertainty. It is desirable that everything be planned before-hand, to precisely know what will happen tomorrow, in the week, in the month, in the year. Uncertainty, for her, is the most severe vital problem, it makes her nervous and she attempts to surmount it with all her resources.
    LSE is not inclined to give herself up to dreams and fantasies, she finds it difficult to create an internal world that is not connected with reality – her attention is always concentrated on the exterior of things. Therefore she often doesn’t realize the deeper essence of a person or event, but makes judgments based on what she sees (i.e. in regards to whether the man is respectable) and finds her point of view to be sufficiently reasoned.
    Her consciousness assumes no mysticism, nothing beyond that which may be seen, touched and checked. Because of the weakness of her introverted intuition she will never compose an intuitive forecast of events, but will prefer to act by means of her strong logical function: thus she will count on things but not foresee them.
    Particularly, due to the weakness of intuition, LSE cannot always catch on to the trends of development, prospects for one or another form of production, the possibility of demand for one or another commodity. It is therefore not surprising that she neither hurries to use innovation in the house nor at work nor in administrative activity. May even wear the same suit for years (though nevertheless will wear it properly and aesthetically). In general, in regards to clothing, she is more so guided by worthwhileness (formal fashion), does not so much love “avant garde” styles.
    Extroverted intuition is also not among the strong qualities of the LSE: for example, she finds it difficult to correctly evaluate and to sense the nature of other people, their true motives, which push them toward one activity over another. - Filatova


    4th Function - Ni Introverted intuition

    Representatives of this type frequently say that even if a day had 48 hours, still for them it would not be enough. The volume of work which they aim to carry out often does not fit into the time allotted for it.
    One of the problems of LSEs is in the fact that they are poor at factoring in time into their estimates and calculations. Time is their bitter enemy: they want to bring their work to an irreproachable quality, but alas deadlines do not permit for this. They usually compose a daily schedule that is packed with activities, and for this reason, however accurately they try to plan the allotments for each day, they often fall victim to omissions and mistakes when taking time into account.
    Establishing norms for activity, the LSE, as a rule, takes neither preparation time, nor reductions in working rate related to fatigue and sickness, nor the time that must be reserved for eating and breaks, nor other kinds of unforeseen time expenditures into consideration. Sometimes there are unpleasant incidents when the LSE pesters his subordinates with questions of the type: "How long is it possible to talk on the phone?!" or "How long do you plan to take your smoking break?" When matter concerns expenditures of working time, the LSE is capable of exceptional unceremoniousness - up to hinting that someone is taking too much time in the bathroom.
    An impression is created that the LSE experiences disappointment every time others take a break, stop their activities, finish their study or work day, ask for a sick leave, or use their annually allotted vacation time. (LSEs let their workers take vacations extremely unwillingly.)
    In the understanding of the LSE, a careless approach to one's productive time is the most terrible misdeed. If some deficiencies in professionalism and technical errors he is somehow willing to suffer, then squandering of working time of oneself or others (which is even worse) or creation of more working hours - is the most terrible crime in his eyes.
    Low productivity is sufficient reason for getting fired.
    LSE attributes many of his failures to his weak ability to manage timeliness of his activities. Missing time is very unpleasant for him. He estimates how much work there remains to be done and is often dissatisfied by results of these assessments.
    Time is the most valuable and sacred of all his resources. LSE will never allow himself to misuse some else's time. A person who is inconsiderate with other people's time he perceives as a great social evil. (LSE, for example, feels indignant over the fact that someone has scheduled two business meetings for the same time but in different places. If this occurred due to someone's forgetfulness or the absent-mindedness - this is still unforgivable.)
    Lateness he perceives in the same manner as getting shortchanged or under-weighted at a produce market. Lateness is stolen time (nothing more nor less than that). Himself tries to be exceptionally punctual, at least in the initial stages of relations.
    As has already been mentioned, any unforeseen expenditure of the time is unpleasant for LSE. The need to complete work in short time frames drives him into panic. Then, he tries to start on work in advance ("She started working on her graduation project earlier than everyone else in class. Even before the requirements for project were announced, she was already done with it, though later she had to re-do several parts.")
    Expenditures of time for LSE are first of all examined from point of view of their expediency and reasonableness. Time spent on studies, work, personal affairs, in his understanding is spent well.
    He hates wasting time for nothing and does not associate with those, who misuse and waste other people's time.
    Even in presence of interest in public life and political events, for LSE it is difficult to "keep up with the times". He is conservative in the depth of his soul, and does not always acknowledge and accept the concurrent innovations and novelties.
    In this, LSE is complemented by a partner who is capable of not only seeing global changes with time, but also to convince him to take them into consideration, which is skillfully done by his dual, the EII. Punctual, responsible, gentle and unobtrusive in the contact, he constantly reminds the LSE about the most pressing matters, keeps track of his time expenditures and suggests how to set them to an optimum. He watches over his daily schedule and makes sure that his partner is not overloaded by work.
    (LSE himself, however thoroughly he plans his day, always overloads it with activities, even if this is a day for rest. Even worse, when LSE compiles a program for daily activities for someone else: one of the representatives of this type, receiving his relative at his house (LII) organized her "leisure" time in such a manner, that in a couple of days she had a nervous breakdown, which incited a family quarrel and a break in their relations.)
    EII adjusts the schedules and programs of LSE by forcing him to take into account people's physical capabilities, asking him to pay more attention to his health, and to set time aside for rest. - Strat


    4th Function - Ni Introverted intuition

    Under the influence of his moods and states, some unforeseen matters constantly appear before the ESFj, some kind of desire to do something that was not in his plans. Becoming fascinated and absorbed into some matter, the ESFj frequently ignores the time factor - it is as if he wants to stop time, or to think that it has stopped, although the ESE knows very well that this isn't so and worries much in this respect. The ESFj constantly feels a wish to do more than he can in the available time, and, as a consequence of this, there is a constant fear of getting overloaded, stress, fussiness, nervousness, and a sensation of being exhausted.
    The ESFj finds it very difficult to plan out his day. His schedule of activities often gets either altered and shifted or filled to a greater density.
    The ESFj fears any unforeseen expenditures of time. Any unnecessary over-expenditures of time greatly annoy him. The ESE feels irritated by an uninvited guest, by an unexpected telephone call, by an unwelcome visitor. He feels irritated by the need to re-do his work, which means spending extra time on it. He is irritated by the need to wait for public transport for too long, by excessive traffic on the roads, by the need to stand and wait in a line in stores. (One cannot envy the person who attempts to get ahead in line right before ESE's eyes.)
    The ESFj constantly hurries himself and constantly rushes others. Frequently, when the ESE is in an unbalanced, overexcited state, some feverish impatience with the notes of irritation in the voice can be seen with him.
    It can be unpleasant to witness how the ESFj upon arriving for a guest visit is already hurrying to go somewhere else. This greatly interferes with communication with him - he as if rushes and hurries up whoever he came to visit: being in a hurry, the ESE inquires about all the latest news, quickly examines the interior and any new acquisitions, creates a fuss around meal preparation, and then starts looking at the clock - it's time to go home!
    In people the ESFj is annoyed by slowness, sluggishness, awkwardness, insufficiently fast responses, and insufficiently rapid mental acuity.
    The ESFj also feels irritated when the conversation returns to the topic which he considers to be exhausted for himself.
    The ESFj gets irritated when "the empty is poured into the emptier". That is, he feels irritated by insufficient informativeness of a conversation - in such cases he is overcome by a sense of an empty waste of time.
    The ESFj rarely succeeds in finding a time to read. Thus, representatives of this type often do their reading in public transport, while traveling, waiting in lines, late at night before going to sleep, or early in the morning before getting up. They also dislike books that feature slow development of topic or events or that are too detailed in their accounts.
    The ESFj dreams about that time when he will be able to live without hurrying and manage to do everything that he wants. But this desire remains as an unfulfilled and unrealizable dream. The ESE cannot always allow himself to quietly sit with some craft or needelwork - he gets constantly tormented by a sense of irrationally utilized time. Therefore, representatives of this type try to combine all matters that can be done simultaneously: if the ESE is sitting and sewing, then simultaneously there is something washing in the laundry, cooking in the kitchen, he's watching something on television, and, on top of that, he also manages to answer the phone.
    Constantly living in a regime of heightened activity, the ESFj does not manage (and does not allow himself) "to make a pause", to stop and analyze the situation, to see its overall development in time, and to correct his plans for the future as might be needed.
    The ESFj cannot rationally and economically expend his forces. For him it is very painful to hear criticisms about untimeliness and inopportuneness of his actions.
    The ESFj finds it unbearable to endure accusations of unproductive expenditures of time. He feels irritated when he is being limited in time: he already tries to spend it maximally rationally, but if this is not achieved it's because the ESE, as any sensing type, takes onto himself additional responsibilities. Therefore, some unforeseen pressing matters constantly appear before him.
    The ESFj greatly dislikes being late. He tries to conceal his incapacity to accurately calculate and estimate time: for example, running way too late for some event or social gathering, he will suggest to not go at all. Suffers when he is criticized for insufficient punctuality.
    The ESFj always feels nervous when he has to coordinate his activities or events in time: for him it's very difficult to feel the flow of time, therefore he has great difficulty with estimating the timeliness and time duration of any events, work, or activities. (Any type of work connected to coordination of time is best avoided for representatives of this type.)
    The ESFj without fail tries to be up to date in all news and all events, since, as has already been mentioned, he is distinguished by an active civic stance. He is always interested in potentially upcoming social and political changes and prospects, and the newly appearing possibilities that they bring. The ESFj constantly hopes for changes that will open up new prospects for himself. He counts on resolving his personal problems with their help.
    The ESFj - is an optimist, and waits for only the best from life. For this reason, unforeseen complications and troubles greatly dismay him. (The ESE is even dismayed by movies and books with a sudden bad ending.) The ESE doesn't like skeptics who foretell of complications and problems, and extinguish initiatives. Even if the ESE himself feels upcoming troubles, he prefers not to seek advice from those who see the future only in dark color.
    The ESFj greatly tries to be farsighted and prudent, which unfortunately he does not always accomplish. Therefore, he painfully reacts to any criticism in this regard.
    This position radically changes when his dual becomes his partner. The INTj knows how to plan out time magnificently well and such that there would be no causes left for overloads, hurry, and stress. The LII corrects ESE's plans, regulated the rate of his activity, creating a regime that is optimal for his vitality and health - conditions that combine high output of work and rational use of time.
    In terms of making forecasts, the INTj is also more preferable for ESFj than other intuitive types, since it is only people of this type who are subconsiously oriented at the intuitive sensations of ESFjs. Furthermore, LII's forecasts always have some kind of logical substantiation, and therefore they seem especially convincing for the ESE, since the ESE gets convinced only by that which is logical.
    With the aid of INTj, the ESFj is able to rationally use and save time, which is necessary for consideration and solution of important problems, since any thought, which the ESFj has unsuccessfully attempted to consider, to base and to understand, in the account of INTj immediately becomes simple, natural, and accessible for his understanding. - Strat


    Descriptions of the Weak Functions:
    Ni – Vulnerable function. This is the weakest function. ESE poorly estimates the timeliness of actions and events. She finds it difficult to distribute energy so as to have time to do everything. Prefers to act immediately as the needs arise, and is usually a very active person.
    She evaluates people by how they relate to her and can therefore mistake others and their motives. She is trusting and easy to deceive.
    Finds it difficult to penetrate into the deeper, concealed possibilities of events. She reasons poorly in such cases. Therefore in some situations she’ll accept what is deemed appropriate and approved by others while in other situations her temperamental, courageous nature may push her into risky activities.
    Due to a weakly developed intuition ESE frequently seems conservative. She poorly visualizes the aftereffects of various activities and thus prefers concrete knowledge concerned with the short-term. - Filatova
    ~ ESTP ~ SLE ~ 7w8 ~ Sp/Sx ~ Fire ~ Aries ~ Beta ~ Gryffindor ~ Summer ~ SLUEN ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Ni polr was the first polr I was able to observe. I think it was one of the easiest to learn, maybe because I am Ni role.

    - uncertainty about the flow of events, or too confident
    - doesn't like to just "let things happen", alternatively will pronounce their easygoingness
    - will either explain things too detailed or with not enough detail
    - poor understanding of causality or too sensitive about causality
    - hates approaching deadlines
    - sometimes will order people to do what they are already doing

    these things will not always be observable, but there is a certain "mood" surrounding these things in Ni polrs.
    i dont think causality has much to do with Ni.
    ~ ESTP ~ SLE ~ 7w8 ~ Sp/Sx ~ Fire ~ Aries ~ Beta ~ Gryffindor ~ Summer ~ SLUEN ~

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    ひきこもり Eli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    what ive noticed in ESE-Sis is that their gut feel always seems to expect the worst, even when its not really realistic to think so. I agree, for me its also not exactly clear how it manifests but like ne polr or low intuition i think its having trouble handling ambiguity and uncertainty. how it differs from ne polr i cant tell.

    Ive seen an ESE-Si double down on her negativity towards an approaching task she had to perform. We were in training to be customer service employees, and the ''deadline'' was approaching indeed. We were supposed to start taking calls in a few days, and she kept insisting that it would be disastrous. I think its a combination of underestimating her skill/capacity to perform this work (low Te) + low Ni making her gut feel completely off. Ive seen her take her first call and it went fine lol. (i think her low Te also played a part, having Ni Te in superego block). She was convinced she couldnt do it. and being all negative about it. Not the first time ive seen an ESE-Si be so negative about going out their comfort zone.
    I think xSIs are threatened by an abundance of choice/option/potential outcomes. xSEs find that very same thing comforting.

    ex: An LSE will find EII's ethical imperative, "There is always room for growth morally as an individual!" nice and relaxing

    xSEs are threatened by a lack of choice/option/potential outcomes where Ni forecast is needed to choose "the best option" and stick with it. Whereas xSIs find that comforting becomes they are very good at "sticking with it", once the choice is made. A narrowing of choices makes the choosing bit easier.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli View Post
    Deadline anxiety cited as common symptom is Ni PoLR just rubs me the wrong way... let me think more on why and come back later.
    I was brought up in a family that was, aside from me, exclusively Ni PoLR. I know their secrets....

    You could think of all their undertakings as being put on a single to-do list that needs to be done ASAP, and their entire lives are like one really long and really busy day. They also have trouble discriminating between what is and is not pertinent in a "bigger picture" Ni context.
    I would also say that a lot of what is said about Ni PoLR depends on how conscientious the person is:
    Higher conscientiousness = Overemphasizing punctuality (sometimes leading them to be awkwardly and unnecessarily early), and overemphasizing the pertinence of activities and consequences of actions.
    Lower conscientiousness = More or less oblivious to punctuality, pertinence of activities, and consequences of actions. (I'd describe them as frivolous)


    Some personal examples:

    A good example would be a time when we went to somebody's wedding. We didn't even know these people very well, but we arrived 1 hr 30 min early! We were the first guests to arrive and we barely knew these people! Talk about awkward... The funny thing is, my family didn't even realize it was awkward at all! Then later, they wanted to leave because they didn't like the food or some shit I don't really remember. So when leaving, my family talked about going to a really nice restaurant to eat dinner, but then decided not to go to the restaurant because the wait time was 45 minutes. Instead, they begrudgingly decided to get fast food because they didn't want to wait that long, but there is a catch! The catch being that they didn't want to eat in the car because they were sure it would get dirty, so they waited to eat until we got home. Wanna know how long it took us to get home? 50 minutes... and they didn't even notice their flaw. When I brought up their mistake several times before getting the fast food and arriving home, I was quickly dismissed with frustration.

    Another example would be one time my sister was in charge of driving me to school. I knew the time it took to drive to school and get to my class like the back of my hand, and would always leave for school to arrive in class just as the bell rang each day. When I was not ready to go at the time she wanted, she got pissed and said I made myself late, so she started on some task and spitefully refused to leave until she was done. I was late for the first time in months that day.

    A good example of them overemphasizing something that wasn't a strictly temporal matter would be the time when they prepped me for my first job interview as a yuppie boy. I was applying for a job moving boxes around in some dirty warehouse for a local business, but they were gonna make sure I looked professional dammit! They got me fixed up with an outfit one would typically wear to a corporate white-collar job, so I was very overdressed. The company knew when I would show up to the interview, but they still mistook me for a customer representing another company when I showed up! They didn't even have plans to see a customer that day... I got hired and my coworkers and I had a good laugh about it!

    One of the most extreme cases was not too long after I left my first job. I was 19 at the time (20 as I write this) and just got through with my first semester of college. I started looking for a new job and they immediately started freaking out about my unemployment after about a few days. After a few weeks of not landing a job, they started to threaten kicking me out. Now, my family is not impoverished by any means, our household income had been 6 figures for a long time and my family had plenty of money saved up, so we were not in any financial jeopardy whatsoever. After 2 months of not landing a job they started getting... violent... I had to move out for my own sake. Something about me not having a job, probably the uncertainty of my future, turned their world upside down in a crazy way. I think they started seeing me as a condemned bum after a week into my unemployment. I think that level of weak Ni is just bizarre.


    Oh how I could go on for ages...


    I have also learned to push for clarification when they use vague words like "soon". Even "now" is sometimes an arbitrary term to them, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli View Post
    Deadline anxiety cited as common symptom is Ni PoLR just rubs me the wrong way... let me think more on why and come back later.
    Oh, and believe it or not, but I don't get anxious about deadlines. Never have, but what would get me anxious is how other people would react to my lack of concern.

    It has never been about getting things done in a timely manner, but how other people treat me as a result of the deadlines. Ni PoLR types can not stand when you are relaxed about a deadline that they care about!

    I could stay on top of things and get things done in a timely manner, procrastinate or not, and they still go crazy when I don't seem bothered!

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    They are bad at sizing people up and understanding some idiocryncisases in people- which makes them seem harsh/anti-social to others. "You don't seem like a person that would like that!" is a Ni polr thing to say as if they had Ni they would understand more the beautiful complexity of people and appreciate it better. Obviously a Ni-dom could say the same thing but their tone would be way different about it.

    They often like to give advice and be 'confident' but come off as like these Fisherman's Wives type of shrews with no finesse or class. Sorry that's mean but that is just the way Ni polr comes off. Not every polr is Te, suck it bitches.

    Or they look at something way too objectively or something and not understand the reason how/why that thing is or how it became the way it did. Just the stone cold objectivity and how it bothers them. This all relates to Ni & insight - as theirs is so crude and simple-minded. They will not value or attach a person's meaning and their own goals and just look at it more from a Fe or Te perspective. This can sometimes make them the world's worst therapists/friends/ppl to confide in as they will just kind of corrupt everything you say in this sphere of Te or Fe instead of the uniqueness that is you? lol

    They also seem bad at knowing how and when to keep a secret.

    And if LSE they are looking at it wanting Fi so will get annoyed if you aren't personally the way they want so they can feel close to you if ESE looking at it as wanting Fe so will get annoyed if you aren't in a certain mood that they want. Because Ni also allows one to 'detatch' in a sense.

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    For example a ESE just today:

    ESE: "I waved hi to karen FOUR TIMEs and she didn't wave hi back to me once! She never even acknowledged me..." (said it like she was genuinely surprised or hurt)

    Me: God. I knew the bitch was like that the millisecond I laid eyes on her. I didn't have to have any interaction with her whatsoever to know that she was a cunt. Did this really surprise you? (tries not to supervise her too hard) God I could tell from Lightyears away she was a Snooty Racist Bitch and you shouldn't have tried to be friendly with her...

    GOD DAMNIT. SUPERVISING ESES IS SO EASY I CAN'T STOP. PLEASE MAKE ME NICER, LORD.

    She liked the Fe/Ti categorization of 'Snooty Racist Bitch' though.

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    Punctuality has nothing to do with Ni. I and most Ni user I've known consider it as "too much focus on useless details". Maybe Ni polr value it?

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    Seems like LSE's trust that they can enforce themselves and others out of sticky places. I have given few cautionary reminders tp them but yeah I do not really like it mb EII's won't mind.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
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    How I percieve Ni PoLR as Ni lead and having to live with Ni PoLR
    Basically I think it's a neglect of time, contemplation, seeing the bigger picture and critically discerning the relevance/appropriateness of something.

    - Prioritizing the material world, seeming materialistic and hedonistic, purely externally focused, not in touch with themselves

    - They ignore time flying past. They get lost in the "external situation" . IEE's and ILE's are similar to this with their Ni ignoring.
    A male ESE cashier the other day started going off about the world economics system and the new one-world-currency that is going to be instigated in 6 months time (take note), forgetting about the 4 other people that were waiting with their groceries to be served.
    I have also witnessed LSE (and old IxE's) trapping people in conversations in time-sensitive situations. It makes me cringe. They also forget to hold reminders in their head like the person they're talking to mentioned they needed to be somewhere else.

    - To put an example on what user @Tallmo above said, "doesn't like to just "let things happen", alternatively will pronounce their easygoingness"
    LSE/ESE: Take it easy, we'll leave in about an hour or so, just relax
    *20 minutes later*
    LSE/ESE: GET IN THE BLEEPING CAR!!! WE GOTTA GO RIGHT NOW!!
    *tension in the car as we wait for that one person who is taking their sweet time*

    - Arriving to an airport 5 hours early, and being stressed about getting somewhere on time when there is plenty of time

    - Stressful to be around (usually)

    - Never witnessed one say, "Hmmm... I don't know, actually..." and go silent, and then think of something a few minutes later

    - Planning silly stuff way too far in advance. "Can you make me a coffee when we get home, I would do it myself but my back is overly sore *continues rambling*."

    - Following from the above, I think someone here mentioned it, they can explain mundane things too much. They also seem to enjoy destroying contemplative silence with noise. Just rattling on about this, that, and the other. Who is interested in hearing about how you need to fix your lawn mower or how you got screwed over by those car dealers and they still haven't called you back and you've "rung them and rung them and oh god I just can't deal with this right now yada yada yada"?" I think this is Ni PoLR - they're ignoring the relevance/connection this has to the person receiving the information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yesein View Post
    - Planning silly stuff way too far in advance. "Can you make me a coffee when we get home, I would do it myself but my back is overly sore *continues rambling*.".
    This is where automation and wireless networking comes to play. You don't need to be an engineer these days to design something that does this with click of a virtual button far away.

    Probably they need to be reminded of a possibility. Anyway this is more of process dynamic Te thingy because I'm sure ILI's would drool after this solution. (Wireless relay and prefilled coffeemaker turned on position and relay off would be enough.)
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
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    Your life is too short to actually do anything useful with it without being wasteful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moharu View Post
    Punctuality has nothing to do with Ni. I and most Ni user I've known consider it as "too much focus on useless details". Maybe Ni polr value it?
    This

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    They are bad at sizing people up and understanding some idiocryncisases in people- which makes them seem harsh/anti-social to others. "You don't seem like a person that would like that!" is a Ni polr thing to say as if they had Ni they would understand more the beautiful complexity of people and appreciate it better. Obviously a Ni-dom could say the same thing but their tone would be way different about it.

    They often like to give advice and be 'confident' but come off as like these Fisherman's Wives type of shrews with no finesse or class. Sorry that's mean but that is just the way Ni polr comes off. Not every polr is Te, suck it bitches.

    Or they look at something way too objectively or something and not understand the reason how/why that thing is or how it became the way it did. Just the stone cold objectivity and how it bothers them. This all relates to Ni & insight - as theirs is so crude and simple-minded. They will not value or attach a person's meaning and their own goals and just look at it more from a Fe or Te perspective. This can sometimes make them the world's worst therapists/friends/ppl to confide in as they will just kind of corrupt everything you say in this sphere of Te or Fe instead of the uniqueness that is you? lol

    They also seem bad at knowing how and when to keep a secret.

    And if LSE they are looking at it wanting Fi so will get annoyed if you aren't personally the way they want so they can feel close to you if ESE looking at it as wanting Fe so will get annoyed if you aren't in a certain mood that they want. Because Ni also allows one to 'detatch' in a sense.
    Omg, they really do be like that.

    My ESE sister insists that my Dad and I are SOOO much alike!
    What are our types?

    IEI and LSE....

    Yeah, I am not seeing it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli View Post
    1. Commonly PoLR is cited as, lack of maneuverability/grace in handling time. This is contrary to personal experience, especially in the case of LSEs. In my experience they are usually extremely punctual, more so than doms themselves usually due to rationality and a characteristic great work ethic. They (talking about LSEs mostly bc of more exp) seem to have no issue planning short term. Long term planning in terms of handling finance, retirement, career advancement are also usually better off managed than your average Joe.
    Ni often veers towards general prognostication… but people seem to have mistakenly conflated 'time management' with this—two very different capacities. I agree LSE/ESE often do quite fine with the latter, and are also more likely to make detailed longer-term plans of a kind Ni egos would regard as absurd.

    As far as punctuality goes, for whatever reason I find Beta/Delta being more mindful of this than Alpha/Gamma. Process > Result types as well.

    1. Difficulty forming frames of context outside of conventional ones. ESEs are a colorful whirlwind but are rigidly stuck "playing" themselves, as characters. By this I mean, in comparison, IEIs can be social chameleons due to the Ni allowing them to tap into an intuitive relationship with archetypes, resulting in the ability to play different roles and characters. ESEs are not capable of this. They are unable to wield mystique. As stated above, LSEs are competent with managing and arranging material aspects of reality for their benefit, but only within a certain frame or context that society has allowed them from the lenses of preexisting knowledge. Like, staying on top of things at school and work, including time-wise. There are tons of preexisting resources for doing so. ILIs are capable of independently seeing beyond, and intellectually able to "mine" out new exploitable trends when in reality they are simply seeing what is already there, uncovering the veil. They are not constrained by previous knowledge. If an LSE is told directly these trends, they can incorporate it as a "fact" for their own benefit, but mining trends directly by themselves? They are incapable of it.
    I often get the impression with Ni PoLRs that if something isn't right in front of their face, it may as well not exist. Not saying that's literally the case, but one quickly gets the sense that it's a lost cause trying to reason with them about an intangible process or unseen potentiality.

    It's my opinion that this PoLR is probably the least noticeable out right in terms of behavior.
    Dig into the mentations a bit and it's obvious. Si PoLR can also be difficult to outwardly notice—but ask me to detail whatever I did yesterday and I'll only be able to give a vague response. I can describe something from imagination with greater nuance than I can my own concrete experience.

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    ひきこもり Eli's Avatar
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    I see. Just like Si PoLRs lack physical balance Ni PoLRs lack temporal balance. And they can’t use symbolism effectively.

    @mfckrz Nice post!




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    ひきこもり Eli's Avatar
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    K. I wanna know how the hell you can verbally criticize an xSE’s PoLR in the most direct and hurtful form possible? As someone who is also very literal minded it’s very difficult. UwU thx

    ex:
    Se- ur weak
    Fe- ur awkward
    Fi- ur a sociopath
    Te- ur stupid af




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    Ni - don't make me tell I told you so....
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

    Your life is too short to actually do anything useful with it without being wasteful.

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    GOD DAMNIT I LOVE SHITTING ON NI POLR WITH Y'ALL HAHA. GOD KNOWS MY TE POLR WILL BE SHITTED ON SO MUCH IN THE 'REAL WORLD' IT'S FUN TO SHIT ON THEIRS.

    Being the 'Lyricist', I wrote a little jingle for the occassion for our Ni polr bashing hour:

    ~ Gossip gossip gossip away, fuck Ni polr and it's stupid ways.

    Gossip gossip gossip away, use that Fe and feel the haaaate. ~

    As for Ni being related to 'Time' I think it is somewhat (it's kind of a superficial and Karen-y definition but it still fits) - although I think LSE/ESE use other functions to kinda mask this weakness and can still be punctual and early to things- especially if they have Ni doms around to help them. The other day I was working and a Ni polr asked me what time it was. I said 'I don't know. I bet it's 2:35?' and then I checked my phone and I was exactly right, right on the money baby. The Ni polr guess otoh was about 15 minutes off- so it's not like they were hours off but they were still wrong. I then was narcissistically impressed with myself and my leading 4D function.

    ESE/LSE will overload their schedules in the same way IEIs/ILIs underload ours by daydreaming too much in a Ni haze, knowing the pointlessness of everything as Time perishes everything in an artistic entropic blaze. So they will plan too much in the day and still feel like they didn't really get 'anything done' because they didn't really use Ni to prioritize the value of anything. Ni helps determine the value of things. Te helps a lot with that too- but it's also a Ni thing.

    Ni kinda naturally destroys unnecessary physical tasks like a laser. Just like a neon green beam of destruction. "No ESE, you don't need to do that now." *bzzzt.* "You need to do this instead, and then this."(Of course the reverse is too much Ni- you don't do anything at all and kind of just victimishly rot but that's another topic.) If you want a more idealistic life that's a life you want to really live rather then feeling too pressured like all these physical objects are raining down on you like anvils. I also would say Ni polr feels unconfident/unable that they can turn their dreams into 'reality' and they sort of naturally get bogged down too much to the reality of things.

    This makes appear kinda tough, worldly and practical/disciplined (especially the T type ESTj) but also like they are 'human doings' instead of 'human beings.'

    They also seem like they get wrinkles on their face easier than other people- has anybody else noticed that?

    That concludes this segment of Ni polr bashing hour. Good night everybody.

    ~ Gossip gossip gossip away, fuck Ni polr and it's stupid ways.

    Gossip gossip gossip away, use that Fe and feel the haaaate. ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    They also seem like they get wrinkles on their face easier than other people- has anybody else noticed that? ~

    I NOTICED THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Are Ni leads the exact opposite?

    b762e838e847358fa5e484000232810d.jpg

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    @Yesein

    I really don't like bragging too much because God knows I have my flaws too but a few years ago my friend thought I wasn't old enough to drink yet and I was in my mid 30s!

    He asked me how in the world did I look so young and I'm that old and I jokingly told him "I eat other people." <3

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    Btw I love your avatar @Yesein !!!

    Final fantasy games are awesome. I still never did the four white mage challenge in FF1!!! I might actually want to do that one before I die haha.

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    Let me explain in the form of a joke:

    An intuitive and a Ni-Polr are on holidays in the 'intuitive land'. They arrive at a beach. Ni-Polr starts counting the grains of sand.
    The intuitive asks: "Why are you doing this?"
    The other answers: "Don't waste my time! You can see that I'm counting!"
    Confused, the intuitive one starts sunbathing, swimming, eating seafood, surfing, etc....
    At the end of the vacations, he comes back to see the Ni-Polr, still counting grains of sand. He lets him know that the vacations are over and it's time to go home. To this, Ni-Polr exclaims: "Too bad I didn't have enough time to finish counting all the grains; I'm starting to be pretty sure this is a beach! If we had stayed a little longer, we could have taken a swim!"
    I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
    Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb

    Life is soup. I'm fork


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli View Post
    K. I wanna know how the hell you can verbally criticize an xSE’s PoLR in the most direct and hurtful form possible? As someone who is also very literal minded it’s very difficult. UwU thx

    ex:
    Se- ur weak
    Fe- ur awkward
    Fi- ur a sociopath
    Te- ur stupid af
    PoLR criticisms:
    Ni- you have all the foresight of a brick.
    Si- your taste in everything is shit
    Ti- can you add? Like, two numbers? Can you?
    Ne- you have the attention span of a chipmunk. Ooh, what's that bright shiny object over there?

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    Si- your taste in everything is shit

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Let me explain in the form of a joke:

    An intuitive and a Ni-Polr are on holidays in the 'intuitive land'. They arrive at a beach. Ni-Polr starts counting the grains of sand.
    The intuitive asks: "Why are you doing this?"
    The other answers: "Don't waste my time! You can see that I'm counting!"
    Confused, the intuitive one starts sunbathing, swimming, eating seafood, surfing, etc....
    At the end of the vacations, he comes back to see the Ni-Polr, still counting grains of sand. He lets him know that the vacations are over and it's time to go home. To this, Ni-Polr exclaims: "Too bad I didn't have enough time to finish counting all the grains; I'm starting to be pretty sure this is a beach! If we had stayed a little longer, we could have taken a swim!"
    Basically what I was going to say. It's not that bad, but their schedule ought to be railroaded to heck. I'm fine with that, but expect me to just start walking in a random direction and being back on time. My vacation, for example, was me walking the streets of greenfield MA under heavy snow, and it was perfect. Nothing to worry about or do, just pure vacation with my friend showing up as as available. That'll probably spook the Ni polr.

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    DeliMeat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli View Post
    K. I wanna know how the hell you can verbally criticize an xSE’s PoLR in the most direct and hurtful form possible? As someone who is also very literal minded it’s very difficult. UwU thx

    ex:
    Se- ur weak
    Fe- ur awkward
    Fi- ur a sociopath
    Te- ur stupid af
    Ni - ur shallow ? IDK, my two cents

    Every time I talk about some topic with Ni PoLR and attempt to take it deeper, they don’t.
    They are more “localized” in how they understand things and are more “breadth>depth”.

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    ひきこもり Eli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliMeat View Post
    Ni - ur shallow ? IDK, my two cents

    Every time I talk about some topic with Ni PoLR and attempt to take it deeper, they don’t.
    They are more “localized” in how they understand things and are more “breadth>depth”.
    Does the shallowness of Se doms not irritate you in the same way?




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    That's fair, I wouldn't say it's shallow, there is some depth to it, I just think it's meaningless when considering the long term. Past happened, move on, type thing.

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    @DeliMeat

    lol telling a Ne valuer I'm gay. (beyond the 'duh, nobody cares' joke):

    me: I'm gay. Let's talk about gayness.

    Ne/Te valuer: Ooh! Let me tell you about the Indonesian instability of bisexual mongloids in the crutcean era and how it relates to the tropical rainforest crisis in the amazon and how it influenced global warming and cyptrocurrencty political strife in the developing world..'

    Me: ... Nevermind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli View Post
    Does the shallowness of Se doms not irritate you in the same way?
    No, because they appreciate it when you help them in this respect. Se gathers around Ni by the campfire to hear its songs and stories, whereas Ni PoLR would rather be doing ANYTHING else.

    But I suppose it could be irritating if they are arrogant with their Se and think don’t need any Ni to help them out. Things like this do happen with all types, but usually when they are young, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    @Yesein

    I really don't like bragging too much because God knows I have my flaws too but a few years ago my friend thought I wasn't old enough to drink yet and I was in my mid 30s!

    He asked me how in the world did I look so young and I'm that old and I jokingly told him "I eat other people." <3
    Hahaha!!! Point proven!!! The stress free life of a Ni lead perks.

    I am usually clocked for younger too I feel like I'm in Superbad when I show my ID card. I got refused when trying to buy an MA+15 game. like wtf.
    cmp.jpg

    Another thing is because we have relatively calm moods and can deal with them, we are less likely to depend on drugs or alcohol.
    I noticed Ni PoLR's and Ni suggestives tend to abuse drugs and alcohol, this would dry out the skin when the alcohol comes out sweat, it also slows down liver detoxification both short and long term (the dehydrogenase system), increases estrogen which slows the metabolism, which will in turn create wrinkles, sphynx cat skin, etc

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