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Thread: ESTp's being fickle with plans/Ni suggestive

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    Default ESTp's being fickle with plans/Ni suggestive

    I noticed if ESTp's promise something, and their mood suddenly changes, they won't follow through with it anymore. Kind of an IEI trait too, but instead of not delivering 3 times out of 10 it's more like 9 out of 10. This is disappointing to me because I mobilize with excitement before the beginning of an event and get bummed when events get cancelled and there is a void in my timeline (maybe a result of being Dynamic and Positivist, LIE's have this too)

    But I can't get angry because I understand their fickleness with plans when factoring in SLE placements of and .
    Suggestive would mean when their internal state is off they need to spend time restoring its balance, maybe hibernate with sleep in order to escape their mood and avoid the situation where they would have to be present in the external situation when they need sorting of their internal one, and avoiding having to display their mobilizing Fe in social events and be amicable when they don't feel like it, and can't fake it. So socializing while in an undesirable state could potentially pose a risk to their Fe hidden agenda.

    Grigory Reinin's description of ESTp:
    Function #-4 – objective intuition (Ne): Here he has the fear of integrity of external situation. Integrity of circumstances is subconsciously rejected. He detests situations when everything is known from beginning to end. A Zhukov has a peculiar vision of time. “What do you mean I have to follow a schedule? What if I feel like working around the clock? Why are you putting me in the rigid frames of a schedule? I do not care about your office hours. If I feel like working, I will keep work”. It is not a surprise that the military talent of marshal Zhukov revealed itself to its fullest in circumstances where the course of events changed abruptly, in situations of a break-through, or an attack, where emergency decisions, deviance from the ordinary schedule, abrupt changes in tactics were necessary. A Zhukov can simultaneously supervise (and be involved in) several situations at the same time, switching from one to another at a snap.

    ^^ Underlined makes sense regarding sticking to plans

    Any input on what is occurring in an ESTp's head when they're in a bad mood is welcome.

    Sounds all doom and gloomy but I have no other complaints about this type.
    Last edited by Yesein; 02-05-2021 at 02:38 AM.

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    If you're not excited and moved by something nobody else will be either- Fe is infectious like that and so often if I'm doing something and it just feels too blah and dead inside I will remove myself from it then come back to it later and so I can see more objectively what worked and what didn't. And with Fe valuing I sorta want everybody to follow along and be on the same page even if I understand they will still vastly not get along and be disagreeable and have conflicting views and opinions. If this sorta thing gets derailed for whatever reason, I kind of use my leading function to correct the strong but still weaker creative function.

    Te is more like a cheating whore to me that has super AIDS. It adapts and evolves not unlike a virus- often in ways that are incredibly heartless and never take your own meaning into account at all. It just wants more Fi validation over and over again. Which I can kinda grasp it from a Fi angle but then Fi is too boring, vanilla and grandma on the park bench-ish - and feels kinda like being stuck. Ti rules are more objectively rigid but sound and pure and makes sense more of what I am trying to accomplish, and move/unstuck me more.

    Tbh only a SLE that's really immature thinks those things about working I think. They're supposed to have Ti creative right- so they can work around schedules. When you have a job you make a contract to be on the time you signed up for to get paid it can't just be childishly whenever you feel like it. Even a Te polr knows that lol. ((Unless you exploit people's Fi relations with you which Betas should learn how to do more often. I mean this isn't a set in stone Ti rule but there is wiggle room to get away with things by manipulating the Fi.)) But it's not really valuing those things or taking them weirdly seriously like Gammas/Deltas do, they just kinda want to use it as a tool to further a Se/Fe-ish agenda I think.

    If you childishly try to make your own schedule you probably just won't do much at all especially if you don't have good external motivation or don't value Te world things. If you do make your own schedule, I think it's wise to take it very seriously otherwise you won't reap the benefits of it anyway. If I don't show up and do X I won't get rewarded with Y. It's that simple. But sometimes SLE have been around a lot of Fi growing up and are really neurotic and have all kinds of psychological issues and are baby-ish like that. The only relief from their inner turmoil and constant PoLR hits and abuses is drug abuse and a life of crime and heartache. Yeah I think they are adorable and I stereotypically want to 'save them' but we all have to save ourselves in a way.
    Last edited by BandD; 02-05-2021 at 03:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    If you're not excited and moved by something nobody else will be either- Fe is infectious like that and so often if I'm doing something and it just feels too blah and dead inside I will remove myself from it then come back to it later and so I can see more objectively what worked and what didn't. And with Fe valuing I sorta want everybody to follow along and be on the same page even if I understand they will still vastly not get along and be disagreeable and have conflicting views and opinions. If this sorta thing gets derailed for whatever reason, I kind of use my leading function to correct the strong but still weaker creative function.

    Te is more like a cheating whore to me that has super AIDS. It adapts and evolves not unlike a virus- often in ways that are incredibly heartless and never take your own meaning into account at all. It just wants more Fi validation over and over again. Which I can kinda grasp it from a Fi angle but then Fi is too boring, vanilla and grandma on the park bench-ish - and feels kinda like being stuck. Ti rules are more objectively rigid but sound and pure and makes sense more of what I am trying to accomplish, and move/unstuck me more.

    Tbh only a SLE that's really immature thinks those things about working I think. They're supposed to have Ti creative right- so they can work around schedules. When you have a job you make a contract to be on the time you signed up for to get paid it can't just be childishly whenever you feel like it. Even a Te polr knows that lol. ((Unless you exploit people's Fi relations with you which Betas should learn how to do more often. I mean this isn't a set in stone Ti rule but there is wiggle room to get away with things by manipulating the Fi.)) But it's not really valuing those things or taking them weirdly seriously like Gammas/Deltas do, they just kinda want to use it as a tool to further a Se/Fe-ish agenda I think.

    If you childishly try to make your own schedule you probably just won't do much at all especially if you don't have good external motivation or don't value Te world things. If you do make your own schedule, I think it's wise to take it very seriously otherwise you won't reap the benefits of it anyway. If I don't show up and do X I won't get rewarded with Y. It's that simple. But sometimes SLE have been around a lot of Fi growing up and are really neurotic and have all kinds of psychological issues and are baby-ish like that. The only relief from their inner turmoil and constant PoLR hits and abuses is drug abuse and a life of crime and heartache. Yeah I think they are adorable and I stereotypically want to 'save them' but we all have to save ourselves in a way.
    Ha, I knew you'd comment first <3

    Tru dat @ your first paragraph. Sounds like Fe and/or being a Positivist type, soothing over differences and contrasts.
    "Positivists facilitate monocentric group structure and unity of purpose." https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Victor-Gulenko
    Also, well, IEI's are natural diplomats.

    Te aids, lolol. Yes, it can be heartless. I got into an argument with a Te lead psychiatrist the other month because they were employing an overly hostile tone toward my brother. His introduction was an order and calling him Mr. *last name*, and he kept asking vague questions in his office that seemed to have no point and was just small talk conducted in an overly formal manner which made me and my brother burst into incredulous laughter.

    Fi can be a bit boring and dry, yes. A moral and static function it is. I find it more cringe in Deltas because they're more detached from reality/opinions of the crowd/normal folk.
    Yeah Ti seems more human than Te. I love the teaching style of Ti leads. Ray Peat, a notorious B.I.ologist (promotes high sugar intake), is an LII. You could debate me on this. Here's a site of his articles, if you're bored or have a mild interest in human biology. http://raypeat.com/articles/ He sparked my interest in learning all about the mitochondria/hormones/metabolism/human body. Keeps my hidden agenda well fed

    Yes that is a good point.
    But what about plans that aren't work or sex (very important) and are just hanging out. They'll def cancel a social event if they're not "in the mood".

    With the exploiting Fi relations being a good thing for Betas, what is your meaning of it? Like expressing a more morally diverse version of yourself?

    "The only relief from their inner turmoil and constant PoLR hits and abuses is drug abuse and a life of crime and heartache." Aww this is so sad.
    Yes, we can't save them, being on the outside looking in. We can't jump into their brain and rub in a bit of Ni+Fe ointment
    - natural opiod concoction. We can only be there for them . If they accept our help, that is... they can push people away when they need them the most... They are very private and suffer alone. Maybe to retain their stoic image, or because their Fi PoLR means they don't want to look vulnerable... But I feel very happy when they do express a bit of vulnerability! What a luxury!

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    I hate being locked into someone else's schedule and prefer to leave my options open to reschedule so that it's most convenient for myself. I really don't care about office hours, I work the times that suit me and delivering results is all that matters, it's the same for people that work for me. Doesn't matter when they do the work as long as it's done, but it also annoys me if someone sticks exactly to office hours and leaves for home when we're in the middle of making good progress and solving a time-critical problem. The result is always that matters, not the process.

    An easy way to irritate me and make me resist is to start hurrying me up and telling me that someone wants me to move right now. I decide myself when I move and at what pace, trying to push it on me will make me slow down intentionally just to make the point that they aren't controlling me.

    That being said, I don't think I renege that much on my promises, it's more like not wanting to promise something in the future with 100% certainty because plans can always change if something comes up. Rescheduling is always okay if there's a good reason. Also it's easy to forget about someone's request if it isn't made clear that they really want this thing and it's repeated. It's not forgotten on purpose but people and their wants aren't usually in the foreground. Like I don't always call back if I've missed a call or gotten an e-mail a while ago. If it's truly important, they'll contact me again about it. Of course if there's something tangible in it for me, that changes the situation because then I will have a clear motivation to make it happen.

    It's true that I don't want to take part in social activities if I'm not in the mood, however often I find out that if I do it anyway my mood will improve if there's plenty of positive Fe present. In these cases it can be fruitful to try to softly convince me how much it would be appreciated if I showed up, pushiness is a bad idea though.

    A lot of it is related to not wanting to look weak, doing something just because you're told feels like you're accepting their power over you and would feel humiliatingly submissive. The same goes for asking to be included in a group or invited somewhere, it would look vulnerable. Not wanting to display or admit you're in a bad mood is also a thing, usually I want to be left alone for a bit until it passes because in a negative mood I just want to attack, find weaknesses and put down everything. I can't fake being merry and sociable if I don't feel like it, but my internal mood is volatile, dependent on physical state and also can change quickly if subjected to the right social atmosphere like the right kind of jokes (typically offensive, "us and them", something to channel the anger at).

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    IEIs calling SLEs fickle is rather amusing. IEIs tend to be fickle in aspects much different than those of SLEs but fickle none the less. SLEs seem to hate routine and get bored with predictable people, so they have been known to stir things up to see what happens next. IEIs tend not to be all that predictable and even their obsessions change on a whim; I liken them to moody chameleons.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    It's hard to know what the OP is talking about exactly, since no examples are given, but let me just say that someone changing plans on a whim might be annoying to anyone and is usually perceived as pretty disrespectful, especially if the other person was looking forward to the event. I get that rationals are stereotyped as being bigger sticklers about sticking to plans and that's true, though I don't think anyone appreciates someone cancelling a date at the last minute, depending on the circumstances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    It's hard to know what the OP is talking about exactly, since no examples are given, but let me just say that someone changing plans on a whim might be annoying to anyone and is usually perceived as pretty disrespectful, especially if the other person was looking forward to the event. I get that rationals are stereotyped as being bigger sticklers about sticking to plans and that's true, though I don't think anyone appreciates someone cancelling a date at the last minute, depending on the circumstances.
    Yeah. I must say that I like some sort of schedule. Not by the book or that I want to organize it. It is heck lot of better not to let people down. I tend check clocks quite often without noticing it. And when the schedule changes I usually miss it. So... I think some sort of skeleton for schedule is OK.
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    @Northstar

    Your comment has been very helpful to my understanding of SLE. It all clicked in my brain reading your comment
    I spot the resemblance of your attitude and perspective to SLE's I know in real life, however they wouldn't be this articulate and aware of themselves, maybe that comes with age

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yesein View Post
    @Northstar

    Your comment has been very helpful to my understanding of SLE. It all clicked in my brain reading your comment
    I spot the resemblance of your attitude and perspective to SLE's I know in real life, however they wouldn't be this articulate and aware of themselves, maybe that comes with age
    Most of the people on this forum are smarter than average.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    It's hard to know what the OP is talking about exactly, since no examples are given, but let me just say that someone changing plans on a whim might be annoying to anyone and is usually perceived as pretty disrespectful, especially if the other person was looking forward to the event. I get that rationals are stereotyped as being bigger sticklers about sticking to plans and that's true, though I don't think anyone appreciates someone cancelling a date at the last minute, depending on the circumstances.
    Examples of the type of fickleness I've seen SLE's display:

    "Lets go camping tomorrow." *Tells what to bring, gets organized themselves* - cancels it in the morning because their mood dropped
    (i feel slightly irritated then sympathetic)

    In romance, it tends to be, they include you in their hypothetical future plans, then they say they don't want anything serious yet, and "love is a fart if you push it, it's shit" and alternate between taking the future prospects of a relationship *seriously* and then not. Drives me nuts

    Also despite (or because) of being Se lead they're less motivated to see something through to completion if there are too many obstacles in the way. Like planning to get chips, if that gets casually suggested it instantly becomes reality to me and I will go through the most impractical route to get there - ok, can't take the car, NO PROBLEM, we get on the bus, then we take the tram, then we walk 2 kilometers, and we waste half the day to go get chips, and not from any store it has to be shoestring chips.

    Their fickleness bothers me mostly because they're my dual and I want to tame them in particular. From anyone else fickleness would be a relief because people who get passive-aggressive with me when I cancel something (usually for a legitimate reason, like I am in another state, or something exploded in my foot, or I remember I had a doctors appointment) make me wonder if it is worth it to endure a friendship or relationship where I feel guilty and in exchange for what? A bit hypocritical i know. Maybe I should face my own demons instead of complaining on a forum about SLE's being fickle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Most of the people on this forum are smarter than average.
    True dat

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    Yes I'm guilty of this.. Still to this day. I am more consistent now. My friends used to nickname me "flake" when I was younger since I would always change my mind out of nowhere on plans lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yesein View Post
    Examples of the type of fickleness I've seen SLE's display:

    "Lets go camping tomorrow." *Tells what to bring, gets organized themselves* - cancels it in the morning because their mood dropped
    (i feel slightly irritated then sympathetic)

    In romance, it tends to be, they include you in their hypothetical future plans, then they say they don't want anything serious yet, and "love is a fart if you push it, it's shit" and alternate between taking the future prospects of a relationship *seriously* and then not. Drives me nuts

    Also despite (or because) of being Se lead they're less motivated to see something through to completion if there are too many obstacles in the way. Like planning to get chips, if that gets casually suggested it instantly becomes reality to me and I will go through the most impractical route to get there - ok, can't take the car, NO PROBLEM, we get on the bus, then we take the tram, then we walk 2 kilometers, and we waste half the day to go get chips, and not from any store it has to be shoestring chips.

    Their fickleness bothers me mostly because they're my dual and I want to tame them in particular. From anyone else fickleness would be a relief because people who get passive-aggressive with me when I cancel something (usually for a legitimate reason, like I am in another state, or something exploded in my foot, or I remember I had a doctors appointment) make me wonder if it is worth it to endure a friendship or relationship where I feel guilty and in exchange for what? A bit hypocritical i know. Maybe I should face my own demons instead of complaining on a forum about SLE's being fickle

    Yeah, when someone perceived as a dual type, there can be higher expactations towards that person. That's one of the pitfalls of socionics. Sounds like you are aware of it, at least.

    Also, the fickleness in romance thing is something I hear alot of people complain about nowadays, I myself have had some negative experiences there with fickleness, but not from SLE specifically. Seems to be a byproduct of something of our age, not sure what, could be instant messanging maybe.
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