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    Default Attitudinal Psyche type system

    Anyone familiar with the Attitudinal Psyche system? It's super interesting and I'm curious to hear any thoughts or experiences. Stumped trying to nail down my type, as the definitions of words like "Logic," "Emotions," etc., are different from socionics.

    Apparently it originates in Russia as well (funny how that works) and measures attitudes that make up your disposition instead of information metabolism. "Although the attitudes are numbered, this does not indicate their aptitude--but rather how much mental energy one is willing to dedicate to each."

    Also there are 24 types instead of 16 and they have their own version of intertype relations. The plot thickens.

    https://www.attitudinalpsyche.com/theory/

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdM...sGWTh6pGnbXDJw

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    It is called psyche-yoga or Psychosophy in Eastern Europe. Despite having been created by Afanasyev as an alternative to socionics, it is commonly used as an alternative subtype system to the DCNH, or rather, it is used in combination with socionics to complete the image of psychological types (Cognition, that is socionic + Behavior and priorities, that is psychosophy) in a relatively similar way to how the enneagram is used in conjunction with socionics in the West.

    Here's an introductory video by Archetype center https://youtu.be/_ykQgGKUPak and a very good page in Russian to learn about psychosophy https://bestsocionics.com/psychosophy/

    One more thing, the name of Attitudinal psyche is simply a web name, just as 16personalities is a web name, while the system is the MBTI, but more importantly, the Attitudinalpsyche.com page is horrible in all regards to descriptions and especially to test. It is important to find the correct sources for this system and specifically search for it in russian, as there's almost no quality info about psychosophy in english.
    For example, there is a forum user that if I have understood well what she explains in her typing video, has a classic psychosophic second quadra behavior (Do your bed and tidy your room, be correct and act correctly, otherwise you will have my disapproval kind of behavior) while diagnosing herself on the opposite psychosophic quadra, probably because of the test or the information she has got from that web.
    Last edited by RBRS; 02-03-2021 at 10:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frddy View Post
    It is called psyche-yoga or Psychosophy in Eastern Europe. Despite having been created by Afanasyev as an alternative to socionics, it is commonly used as an alternative subtype system to the DCNH, or rather, it is used in combination with socionics to complete the image of psychological types (Cognition, that is socionic + Behavior and priorities, that is psychosophy) in a relatively similar way to how the enneagram is used in conjunction with socionics in the West.

    Here's an introductory video by Archetype center https://youtu.be/_ykQgGKUPak and a very good page in Russian to learn about psychosophy https://bestsocionics.com/psychosophy/

    One more thing, the name of Attitudinal psyche is simply a web name, just as 16personalities is a web name, while the system is the MBTI, but more importantly, the Attitudinalpsyche.com page is horrible in all regards to descriptions and especially to test. It is important to find the correct sources for this system and specifically search for it in russian, as there's almost no quality info about psychosophy in english.
    For example, there is a forum user that if I have understood well what she explains in her typing video, has a classic psychosophic second quadra behavior (Do your bed and tidy your room, be correct and act correctly, otherwise you will have my disapproval kind of behavior) while diagnosing herself on the opposite psychosophic quadra, probably because of the test or the information she has got from that web.
    Cool, thanks for the great info! Looking forward to checking out those links sometime this week. I was mostly curious to see if it could illuminate why I seem to have extremely complementary connections with people who aren't "ideal" intertype relations to me. Another layer so to speak....

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    Those resources helped a good deal. Originally I typed VELF with the attitudinal psyche website, but after going down the rabbit hole of Russian-to-English translated sites, I don't think I'm forceful enough (at all) to be 1V. And I don't think I have enough of the social movement/cult leader vibes to be VELF, ha.

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding Volition/Will as forcefulness when it's really about being strong willed? Different sources yielded slightly different definitions, which was frustrating, because I consider myself strong-willed but not forceful about it. It seems being strong-willed is often a character trait of 3V, too.
    Last edited by Emily; 02-07-2021 at 06:44 AM.

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    Hmm. Considering LEVF for my type, which is a little odd to wrap my mind around coming from MBTI/Socionics definitions of "Logic."

    2E seems like the best fit for me, regardless.

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    I'm going to try to give you a little help.

    One of the most important dichotomies in psychosophy is that of Process and Result, which, when mixed with strong or weak, will help you find your possible type.

    The first and second functions are strong and the third and fourth weak, while the first and third are result, and the second and fourth process. This means that in a certain way, the third function is a weak and repressed form of the first function, which wants to be as much as the first but is unable to do so, thus
    being frustrated and reduced by others, many times being compensated or expressing itself and it's frustration in a deviative way through the first function. Read the articles on the page that I sent you about the positions and accents of functions and you will get the idea of ​​where this is going (I have a special liking for that page, since it tells you how good, neutral and ugly each aspect is of what it describes is, instead of staying in the positive sides to praise the reader). By how you describe your will, it gives the impression of strong and processive, second will we can say.

    To see if a results will type suits you, I am going to give you a couple of examples about result wills to give you an idea so you can compare.

    The mentality of the first will can be summarized the next sentence
    "Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live." The first will fights and moves forward directly towards its goals, is forceful and capricious, and if it wants something, it will do absolutely everything possible to achieve it. In comparison second will gets along with others, accepts others suggestions and interest, and doesn't steamrolls through everything and everyone if needed to archieve what it wants.

    A good example for the third will may be the classic story of the dispute between Isaac Newton and Leibniz regarding the invention of calculus, in which the father of physics (at that time head of the royal society) selected a cabinet of investigation agains't Leibniz for claiming to have invented calculus before, and then secretly wrote the cabinet report himself, with the intention of destroying Leibniz's reputation. Newton would later present that report as evidence, and as an investigation carried out by the chosen cabinet (which it was not). The third will is like that, being weak and incapable, and yet ambitious and high-minded, resorts to working from the shadows, not getting into direct conflict, and pulling the strings behind the scenes to get what it wants. A fictional character representing third will can be the protagonist of Death Note, Light Yagami.
    In comparison, fourth will has almost no willpower, doesn't apply pressure and accepts/incorporates other people's goals or imperatives for himself with ease.
    Last edited by RBRS; 02-08-2021 at 08:44 PM.

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    Okay yes, I can rule out 1V since I don't steamroll people. From your example it sounds like 3V avoids direct conflict, which I sometimes do, but maybe that's also a 1E thing? I know what I want but I don't impose it or limit what other people want. I like to ask people what they want so it feels equal, which seems 2V like you said.

    The page on First Emotion with Third Logic is eerily accurate:

    The main feature of these types is exceptional curiosity, a child's direct view of the world, openness to new things.
    Both Ghazali and Bukharin have an adapting Will, which leads to a lesser degree of conflict in discussions and disputes, in comparison with the first-willed Third Logicians.

    and...

    They are very caring, but at the same time strive for independence and do not like to be manipulated using their natural responsiveness. Ghazali and Bukharin are very pleasant in communication and unobtrusive, they are characterized by ease in relationships. In other people, they value intelligence and reliability first.

    Was thinking I couldn't be 1E because I'm aware of the emotions of others and some of the descriptions of 1E make it sound like 1Es are histrionic and oblivious to other people's feelings. But the EVLF description is actually ringing true.

    Anyway, thanks. Was hoping somebody would have some good insights. Do you know your type?
    Last edited by Emily; 02-08-2021 at 02:02 AM. Reason: formatting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    Okay yes, I can rule out 1V since I don't steamroll people. From your example it sounds like 3V avoids direct conflict, which I sometimes do, but maybe that's also a 1E thing? I know what I want but I don't impose it or limit what other people want. I like to ask people what they want so it feels equal, which seems 2V like you said.

    The page on First Emotion with Third Logic is eerily accurate:

    The main feature of these types is exceptional curiosity, a child's direct view of the world, openness to new things.
    Both Ghazali and Bukharin have an adapting Will, which leads to a lesser degree of conflict in discussions and disputes, in comparison with the first-willed Third Logicians.

    and...

    They are very caring, but at the same time strive for independence and do not like to be manipulated using their natural responsiveness. Ghazali and Bukharin are very pleasant in communication and unobtrusive, they are characterized by ease in relationships. In other people, they value intelligence and reliability first.

    Was thinking I couldn't be 1E because I'm aware of the emotions of others and some of the descriptions of 1E make it sound like 1Es are histrionic and oblivious to other people's feelings. But the EVLF description is actually ringing true.

    Anyway, thanks. Was hoping somebody would have some good insights. Do you know your type?
    I have a few takes, and some functions that I am pretty sure about. Second logic for example, by all descriptions fits me like a glove, both third will and third emotion fit but I think third will fits far more, etc.

    Third Will is not specially conflict avoidant, I'll copy a description from the very same page I've linked:

    "The Third Will is a difficult third function to understand, since its problems cover all spheres of life. 3V is the person who "doesn't understand what he wants." He has many ambitions and many doubts about himself. They seem to be reserved to outsiders. At the same time, they react sharply to lacks of respect, ignorance on him, and take offense when another does not find a reason for.

    Having gotten to know 3V better, you definitely run into his complexes: Complaining "I'm a void, a loser, I won't achieve anything in my life" is the norm for the Third Testament. He seem to find more and more reasons for self-loathing. However, if the situation becomes critical, 3V suddenly takes voluntary actions that change his life, invariably surprising others. At the right time, 3V knows how to recover. These people are responsible, which is explained by two reasons: they are collectivists and are concerned about a common cause; They are afraid of disappointing others and meeting disapproval.

    Understanding the complexities of the social hierarchy is a constant aspiration of 3V. They strive to realize and improve their status in society, while at the same time evaluating other people in terms of their place on the social scale. 3Vs often have trouble with their sense of humor. It is difficult for them to laugh at themselves, but they love cruel jokes that humiliate people; this, again, is associated with the hierarchical consciousness of this function.

    It is common for the Third Will to defend its social status in any way, even with the help of lies and simulations. They use "show off", trying to show themselves better than they really are. His motto is "it is better to appear than to be" (as opposed to 1V, for example). At the same time, 3V has a good understanding of the torment of others over status and tries not to hurt other people's pride".
    Last edited by RBRS; 02-08-2021 at 12:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frddy View Post
    I have a few takes, and some functions that I am pretty sure about. Second logic for example, by all descriptions fits me like a glove, both third will and third emotion fit but I think third will fits far more, etc.

    Third Will is not specially conflict avoidant, I'll copy a description from the very same page I've linked:

    "The Third Will is a difficult third function to understand, since its problems cover all spheres of life. 3V is the person who "doesn't understand what he wants." He has many ambitions and many doubts about himself. They seem to be reserved to outsiders. At the same time, they react sharply to lacks of respect, ignorance on him, and take offense when another does not find a reason for.

    Having gotten to know 3V better, you definitely run into his complexes: Complaining "I'm a void, a loser, I won't achieve anything in my life" is the norm for the Third Testament. He seem to find more and more reasons for self-loathing. However, if the situation becomes critical, 3V suddenly takes voluntary actions that change his life, invariably surprising others. At the right time, 3V knows how to recover. These people are responsible, which is explained by two reasons: they are collectivists and are concerned about a common cause; They are afraid of disappointing others and meeting disapproval.

    Understanding the complexities of the social hierarchy is a constant aspiration of 3V. They strive to realize and improve their status in society, while at the same time evaluating other people in terms of their place on the social scale. 3Vs often have trouble with their sense of humor. It is difficult for them to laugh at themselves, but they love cruel jokes that humiliate people; this, again, is associated with the hierarchical consciousness of this function.

    It is common for the Third Will to defend its social status in any way, even with the help of lies and simulations. They use "show off", trying to show themselves better than they really are. His motto is "it is better to appear than to be" (as opposed to 1V, for example). At the same time, 3V has a good understanding of the torment of others over status and tries not to hurt other people's pride".
    More to ponder, and confirms I'm not 3V. The third and fourth can be tricky, yes? Both are rather weak.

    What's interesting is I know an ILI who seems to be 3V. I say interesting because I wouldn't think ILIs in general are too concerned about social hierarchy or being "collectivists" (at least not from a socionics quadra perspective), but this sort of explains why was so career focused. The hierarchy thing is Te-focused rather than about Fe influence.

    I think he's always dreamed of being an entrepreneur but his father is a "failed" one, so he chose to climb the corporate ladder. What's surprising is he's done amazingly well for himself in a material sense but I think there is still a basic insecurity as well as that untapped desire to explore the adventure of entrepreneurship. I think he has fear around truly going off on his own. Or maybe there's not as much social gratification/proving one's self when you aren't connected to a corporation? He's also been poor before so I think he fears going back to that if he were to actually strike out on his own.

    It's like he wants the safety and affirmation of being connected to a large corporation, but simultaneously dislikes the paranoia of dealing with people and proving himself.
    Last edited by Emily; 02-08-2021 at 09:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    More to ponder, and confirms I'm not 3V. The third and fourth can be tricky, yes? Both are rather weak.
    This website has amazing descriptions for each fonction; I think it should help: http://www.psysofia.ru/psychosofia/psychosofia.html

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    Thanks @YXPR, I'm sure this will give me even more delicious mental puzzles and doubts

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    Some pretty harsh descriptions of the Third Will from that site, ouch...

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    XxFV on that site literally sounds like an EII
    Pinterest
    CH-EII-1Ne | INFP | 4(w5) 96 sx/so

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    Gosh, this is difficult. Every time I think I've narrowed it down I either read something new or just don't fully relate to one of the descriptions, especially when they venture into caricature-land. It's fascinating reading, though.
    @YXPR, can I ask what made you settle on 1W and 2E for yourself?
    Last edited by Emily; 02-09-2021 at 03:20 AM. Reason: added a question

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    I think this is something where you comfort /stability zone resides. It is hard to run against this even if you could. 3rd comes out when you try to take care of it while 4th is bit desperate and immobile. 2nd is reflective of towards the 1st so it is in the background but kind of hidden. 1L is kind of ultimate nerd (intrest will vary and sociotype is better predictior of those as it is for every position).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chin Diaper 007 View Post
    I think this is something where you comfort /stability zone resides. It is hard to run against this even if you could. 3rd comes out when you try to take care of it while 4th is bit desperate and immobile. 2nd is reflective of towards the 1st so it is in the background but kind of hidden. 1L is kind of ultimate nerd (intrest will vary and sociotype is better predictior of those as it is for every position).
    Would you want to give an example of how that works with your own type?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    Would you want to give an example of how that works with your own type?
    My interest seem to be aligned towards understanding of things but often it is like the investment really needs to elevate me. I can not really do it for my own physical welfare or gaining something. However I can be pushy but I do not handle it that well. I don't pay attention to my living space but I'll probably do something about if someone says (short term response) or if external circumstances dictates it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chin Diaper 007 View Post
    I think this is something where you comfort /stability zone resides. It is hard to run against this even if you could. 3rd comes out when you try to take care of it while 4th is bit desperate and immobile. 2nd is reflective of towards the 1st so it is in the background but kind of hidden. 1L is kind of ultimate nerd (intrest will vary and sociotype is better predictior of those as it is for every position).
    You can always expand your comfort zone. That shit is not static
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    You can always expand your comfort zone. That shit is not static
    I don't know about yours but my shit does not dance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chin Diaper 007 View Post
    I don't know about yours but my shit does not dance.
    ya cuz ur a pussy
    ~ ESTP ~ SLE ~ 7w8 ~ Sp/Sx ~ Fire ~ Aries ~ Beta ~ Gryffindor ~ Summer ~ SLUEN ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    ya cuz ur a pussy
    Have you ever pushed out a shit that can shit that can shit that can shit?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chin Diaper 007 View Post
    Have you ever pushed out a shit that can shit that can shit that can shit?
    Ya and it resembled you
    ~ ESTP ~ SLE ~ 7w8 ~ Sp/Sx ~ Fire ~ Aries ~ Beta ~ Gryffindor ~ Summer ~ SLUEN ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Ya and it resembled you
    Thanks. It is always an honour to hear such kind and shitty comments of yours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    Some pretty harsh descriptions of the Third Will from that site, ouch...
    All the descriptions of the 3rd functions are harsh. That's because the 3rd function is similar to the socionics polr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    @YXPR, can I ask what made you settle on 1W and 2E for yourself?
    The 1rst function is an area that you master very well but that you don't compromise with. You also don't need external validation when it comes to it. I knew I was 1W because I'm always aware of what I want and I am not easily influence by the will of other people (I'm aware of it but I don't really care because I don't compromise when it comes to my will and I don't expect other people to compromise when it comes to theirs).
    That's why 1W conflict with 3W. 3Ws have a lot of insecurities regarding their own willpower. In a way they are strong-willed but at the same time they doubt themselves a lot. They want a lot of things but they don't really know what ("Oh I want this! But wait... Maybe I don't. What should I do?). They need someone to reassure them, someone who will take the time to discuss their desires and ambitions with them. It's through this exchange that they gain confidence. A funny representation of 3W is Chidi from The Good Place, even though it's obviously exaggerated for the sake of comedy:


    The 2nd function is different from the 1rst one because even though you are really good at it, you are more than willing to compromise; actually you even need external validation in this area (it's a processing function). So for example I'm 2E and I'm very aware of my emotions but I love to talk about them and over-analyze with my friends, I could do that forever. Having this interaction helps me to understand my own emotions even better which is important for me because I aspire to mastering them completely. I also enjoy helping people who struggle with their own emotions and I'm pretty good at it. I find people who are genuine and insecure emotionally particularly endearing.
    On the contrary, someone who is 1E wouldn't understand my need to analyze my own emotions like that, for them emotions are just emotions, you just feel them or you don't and they might think that I overcomplicate everything.

    1rst function = you consider that you are already perfect, no need for external help/validation
    2nd function = you are a perfectionist, you want to help people perfect themselves and reassure them all while working on yourself by doing that.
    3rd function = you are insecure, you might even feel shame and you constantly need to learn and to be reassured
    4th function = you just don't care

    1rst and 4th functions = terminal = I am what I am, I feel what I feel, I think what I think. Who cares? Don't bother me please.
    2nd function and 3rd function = processing = we can always improve, let's talk about it, let's work on it together. I'll teach you. Please teach me.

    Keep in mind that I'm 1W so my view of 3W is likely to be biased.

    Edit: Also 3W people are the kind to fear being taken advantage of a lot. They can be scared that other people will try to impose their own willpower on them so you need to be careful and reassure them that you don't have ill intentions when you deal with them.

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    @YXPR, thank you. What you wrote is closer to the understanding I had originally before exploring other sites, but I think I'm getting hung up on some of the more fantastical and extreme descriptions. In many cases it's like they were written for specific sociotypes rather than as a general description of the function itself. One site portrayed 1V as power hungry, demanding obedience, fearlessly leading as though they had every right, and discarding morality, but I suppose there are shades of this depending on sociotype.

    It's probably a case of being too close to myself and unable to see my own nose. Like you, I tend to always know what I want which is probably why I originally typed 1V, but I also think I'm pretty considerate of what others want. Perhaps that's a result of training/upbringing. When it comes to E I sometimes like processing my feelings and other times I want people to keep their nose out of it. I notice myself withdrawing from people when I'm going through a hard time emotionally, but reaching out when I'm doing well, so don't know if that's related to psychosophy type or just having issues, lol.

    Perhaps I'm VELF after all, although EVLF seems a good alternative. I do seek Logical answers and help, it's one reason I value my ILE friend so much when I have a sticky problem. Then again, I didn't connect with this description of 4F at all: The Fourth Physics can be characterized by gloomy and even suicidal moods. The thought of suicide comes to her easily and without any disgust. The desire to commit suicide is a normal reaction for her to the problems and inconveniences of life. This also shows the ability of the Fourth function to switch off in crisis situations.


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    It's a great theory because it gets away from the ....... ugliness that has come from people's remixing of Jung's work and the simplistic dichotomies that people like to spin around so much. It's not always well manifested. the actual AP website and co are good at trying to flesh it out.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

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    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    @UDP I'm very fascinated by it, although sometimes frustrated by the almost contradicting definitions I'm finding. That's kind of the typology journey, though.

    It's been accounting for why I relate so differently to people who are all of the same sociotype. Or why even opposing socionics quadra relationships have felt complementary to me in many ways....ways that subtype, enneagram, etc., have not been able to account for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    1rst and 4th functions = terminal = I am what I am, I feel what I feel, I think what I think. Who cares? Don't bother me please.
    2nd function and 3rd function = processing = we can always improve, let's talk about it, let's work on it together. I'll teach you. Please teach me.

    Edit: Also 3W people are the kind to fear being taken advantage of a lot. They can be scared that other people will try to impose their own willpower on them so you need to be careful and reassure them that you don't have ill intentions when you deal with them.
    This was all very helpful. It requires another level of self awareness to know in which areas I like to be left to my own counsel and which ones I need to hash out with others. Hmm. L is looking more like a process function for me.

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    Found an old thread from six years ago. Quick Google search also yields information on each sexta.

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...to-Psyche-Yoga

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    @UDP I'm very fascinated by it, although sometimes frustrated by the almost contradicting definitions I'm finding. That's kind of the typology journey, though.

    It's been accounting for why I relate so differently to people who are all of the same sociotype. Or why even opposing socionics quadra relationships have felt complementary to me in many ways....ways that subtype, enneagram, etc., have not been able to account for.
    That's good.

    when people use only one typology lens, it's not much better than watching only one partisan news network. AP + Enenagram + Socionics = actually being somewhat more robust in modeling capacities, than one lens only
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    Those resources helped a good deal. Originally I typed VELF with the attitudinal psyche website, but after going down the rabbit hole of Russian-to-English translated sites, I don't think I'm forceful enough (at all) to be 1V. And I don't think I have enough of the social movement/cult leader vibes to be VELF, ha.

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding Volition/Will as forcefulness when it's really about being strong willed? Different sources yielded slightly different definitions, which was frustrating, because I consider myself strong-willed but not forceful about it. It seems being strong-willed is often a character trait of 3V, too.
    So Volition is about willpower, but also about self-worth and image of 'who we are'. The first function represents excess, so 1V has excess force of will, (excessively) high self-esteem, and a very defined boundary of who they are. The second function is 'normative' in other words it has just the right amount of usage to be healthy for oneself and also helpful towards other people. So 2V people are great at accurately assessing their own abilities as well as others'. They often like to help others achieve their goals. The third function represents a mix of weakness and a desire to appear strong. The third function envies those who have it as a first function. So 3V people give the impression that they are strong-willed, when they really aren't. 3V's self-esteem fluctuates wildly, sometimes they think they're kings and sometimes they think they're dirt. What they need is the accurate assessment that 2V users can give them. Finally the fourth function is weak but at the same time does not mind or even appreciates when others with stronger function use the element. So 4V has a very fuzzy image of self, poor force of will, willingly submits or sees himself as a subordinate, etc. But on the positive side, 4V is the only one that can be truly honest about their shortcomings, because they have no need to 'protect' their will like 3V.

    One of the things I don't like about Attitudinal Psyches is that it labels the functions wrong.
    According to AP, the functions are ordered from 'best' to 'worst'. When in reality our real strength (what we give to the world or help others with) is our 2nd function.
    The first function is something we have in excess but not in a good way. The first function is selfish and can only be tolerated by someone who has it as their fourth function.
    The third function isn't quite like Socionics POLR. It's supposed to be a function which is weak but with great potential. Often people find fulfillment in using their third function.
    Finally the fourth function isn't necessarily an 'uncaring' function as AP calls it. The fourth function is valued in others and devalued in oneself. It also has a unique strength that ironically stems from its weakness, which is the ability to tolerate those who have it as their first function.

    This is just a quick rundown of Volition and the functions as described in some of the Russian sites:
    psycheyoga (archive.org)

    Oh and finally there's nothing preventing people from having a Psyche Yoga type that is 'opposite' to their Socionics type. Think about it as subtypes rather than a whole new typing system. So you could have 1L even if you have Logic POLR or Logic seeking in Socionics, etc.

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    Oh and another thing: Socionics type greatly influences what someone with a given Psyche Yoga type will look like. So I have a VFEL/VLEF LSE-D grandma who used to be an absolute tyrant (by account of my mum and her sister which had 2V/3V, both EII surprisingly). Ironically she was quite nice to me and my uncle who I suspect is a 4V. She mellowed out with the years but the high V, coupled with low E and Socionics type made her 1V look like a monster. Types like VELF and VEFL are comparatively mellow because the high E makes them aware and respectful of other people's Emotion. Coupled with socionics type, I imagine an IEI/EIE VELF is quite unobtrusive with their Volition. In those cases, I think 1V has a DIY approach to things rather than a domineering approach. But I haven't met enough 1V irl to say for sure.

    Here's a few descriptions of VELF: They're described as more agreeable than VLEF or VFEL descriptions
    will_emotion_logic_physic (archive.org)
    Описание типа ВЭЛФ (Ахматова) в психософии (bestsocionics.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    So Volition is about willpower, but also about self-worth and image of 'who we are'. The first function represents excess, so 1V has excess force of will, (excessively) high self-esteem, and a very defined boundary of who they are. The second function is 'normative' in other words it has just the right amount of usage to be healthy for oneself and also helpful towards other people. So 2V people are great at accurately assessing their own abilities as well as others'. They often like to help others achieve their goals. The third function represents a mix of weakness and a desire to appear strong. The third function envies those who have it as a first function. So 3V people give the impression that they are strong-willed, when they really aren't. 3V's self-esteem fluctuates wildly, sometimes they think they're kings and sometimes they think they're dirt. What they need is the accurate assessment that 2V users can give them. Finally the fourth function is weak but at the same time does not mind or even appreciates when others with stronger function use the element. So 4V has a very fuzzy image of self, poor force of will, willingly submits or sees himself as a subordinate, etc. But on the positive side, 4V is the only one that can be truly honest about their shortcomings, because they have no need to 'protect' their will like 3V.
    Okay, lots of good stuff @The Banana King. I hadn't seen that first Russian site you linked, thanks. I'll do more processing here on what you said (no need to respond unless you want to). Your answers remind me of talking to my ILE friend--we're both in the middle of trying to figure out what types we are.

    I'm a teacher so I like helping my students, but I'm not sure how much I actually like helping other people getting to their goals in life. I'm interested in careers like counseling, but that's different from, say, a life coach, since the help is more emotional. I assume people will get to their goals if they're self-motivated enough, or will ask for help if they need it. I often feel like it's pointless to give someone motivation for something, like you either have it intrinsically or you don't. Kinda seems like 1V.

    I don't love having to reassure people on a regular basis. Will definitely reassure a friend in crisis, but if they're naturally indecisive or complaining about the same thing for years, I lose patience. At the same time, I've hung in there for a long time with people because I wanted to be an emotional support or didn't want to lose the relationship....

    I intentionally make an effort to accommodate other people who have a strong agenda but over time there's tension. Kind of like "this town ain't big enough for the two of us," but I'm very quiet about it, not forceful or outwardly demanding. I think it comes down to sociotype and introversion like you said in your other post. I just quietly begin to do my own thing and avoid people where it seems like it will become a battle of wills. So that could be the tension of 1V wanting to do its own thing and 2E wanting to not ruffle feathers.

    As for the third and fourth spots. I like what you said about having tolerance for a person who has your 4th function as their 1st. I was leaning towards 3L and 4F, but I'm able to be active when I need to be. I've been told consistently I have a work ethic. I'm also not that oblivious to aesthetics of my appearance or surroundings. Finally I do value other's Logical input. What do you think being 3F would look like in terms of being weak but having potential?

    Hmm, that last point re: being honest about shortcomings. Not sure if that only applies to 4V people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    Oh and another thing: Socionics type greatly influences what someone with a given Psyche Yoga type will look like. So I have a VFEL/VLEF LSE-D grandma who used to be an absolute tyrant (by account of my mum and her sister which had 2V/3V, both EII surprisingly). Ironically she was quite nice to me and my uncle who I suspect is a 4V. She mellowed out with the years but the high V, coupled with low E and Socionics type made her 1V look like a monster.
    I can imagine an LSE-D VFEL or VLEF would be quite the force to be reckoned with. I know an EII who I think is 2V! I believe her LIE husband is 3V or 4V and she has faithfully supported his dreams for years. She was his biggest help getting through grad school, which he almost didn't make it through due to issues with motivation. She even put her own education on hold so he could pursue his dream, but has expressed frustration didn't get more education herself.

    I remember thinking (but not saying), "I would never put my life dream on hold for anyone." Haha. A 1V thing to think, probably.

    At the same time, she has a husband and a kid and I don't, so you know....priorities.

    Types like VELF and VEFL are comparatively mellow because the high E makes them aware and respectful of other people's Emotion. Coupled with socionics type, I imagine an IEI/EIE VELF is quite unobtrusive with their Volition. In those cases, I think 1V has a DIY approach to things rather than a domineering approach. But I haven't met enough 1V irl to say for sure.
    This was really good. Yes, I think this might be me. I just pursue my own things but I don't try to get others to do them with me (or for me). If I meet resistance from someone, I find myself quietly distancing from that person.

    However, I don't always know if this distancing is prompted by 1V or 1E...most recently I've distanced from people that I just feel bad around.
    Last edited by Emily; 02-22-2021 at 03:56 AM. Reason: formatting woes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post

    As for the third and fourth spots. I like what you said about having tolerance for a person who has your 4th function as their 1st. I was leaning towards 3L and 4F, but I'm able to be active when I need to be. I've been told consistently I have a work ethic. I'm also not that oblivious to aesthetics of my appearance or surroundings. Finally I do value other's Logical input. What do you think being 3F would look like in terms of being weak but having potential?

    Hmm, that last point re: being honest about shortcomings. Not sure if that only applies to 4V people?
    So you could think about it this way: What bothers you the most? People who are overly dogmatic, closed to discussion and don't listen to others opinion, or people who are overly materialistic, concerned about their appearance and carnal pleasure or greedy? Of course these are extremes of behaviour and not all 1L are dogmatic and not all 1F are materialistic but both of these are selfish regarding that element, and offputting to those who have 3L or 3F.

    Being active is not necessarily a sign of high F. Generally high V and high F indicate activity. For F, usually 2F and 3F are the most active or restless. 1F can be active if they find value in it (usually monetary or physical improvement value). 2F is the most active type. They're referred to in Russian as 'Workers' because they're always doing something.

    So about 3F: 3F is often quite active, interested in exercising, etc. I think the biggest problem with 3F is body image issues and anything related to body processes. The overreact to any physical stimuli, sounds, touch, taste, etc. And they hate it when someone (like me) rushes things like eating or cooking for instance. Since 3F is processional Physics, cooking and eating, for them is all about the process. So they get pissed when they cook something nice to you and you slide it right into your mouth in one huge bite. Most of the people in my life are 4F or 2F so nobody ever made a big deal about it. But I find it that all of the few 3F I met in my life complain about how fast I eat and that I don't savour my food. In my defense food is just so tasty that I can't help gobbling it up like I'm starved every time lol. They accuse me of stress-eating or whatever. I just like food damnit!
    Another thing is that often they are interested in exercise, dieting, etc. Sometimes to the point of obsession. But it's an obsession that comes from perceived shortcomings in the realm of Physics. Even the good looking ones think they look bad. I guess that obsession with physics is also a hidden strength since they're always trying to improve in the physical world.
    1F are also interested in exercise, etc. The main difference I'd say is that 3F is hyper-aware meanwhile 1F is underaware and needs extra stimulation to get their shift of Physics. 1F is described as a 'sensory behemoth'. I relate to that phrase pretty well lol. I don't feel cold unless its under freezing temperatures, heat doesn't bother me much, love fatty and salty food, etc.

    4F on the other hand, can be a bit hard to pinpoint since it's basically the absence of Physical 'attachment' so to speak. 1F is described as being full of vitality. So 4F is described as 'lacking vitality'. This is where they got that thing about 4F being prone to suicidal thoughts. I don't think it's about suicide as it is maybe a sort of melancholy to their temperament. 1F is described as being 'big', which makes sense for someone having excess Physics. Usually they are tall, and either fat, muscular, or well-built, even the ladies. 4F on the other hand are described as thin/asthenic. The positive side to 4F is a fearlessness when it comes to their body. And also not being afraid of seeing a bloody scene of crime for instance. Which would make any 3F instantly faint lol.

    About the 4V being honest about shortcomings, I got that one from the archived Russian site:
    4V is also called 'Fortress' in Russian. (Which kinda matches with 1V being called 'King')

    The picture of the universe, living in the soul of the 4th Will, practically repeats the corresponding picture of the 1st Will, i.e. space is a hierarchy consisting of two stages: the upper and the bottom. The difference is that the "fortress" automatically places itself not on the top, as a "king" but on its lower stage, taking the role of a pass-up, subordinate, child.
    From here, one of the most characteristic will take the 4th Will - its untimely childishness, which, because of sincerity and simplicity, do not want to call infantilism. In principle, and the 3rd Will infantile, but it tries to masquerade as an adult and so repels. The 4th Will is not masked and so very disposed to itself, although there are in its behavior traits that cause bewilderment and sn off. For example, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, being under the blanket to Madame de Varance, and there continued to call her "mommy", although the nature of the relationship obviously contradicted such treatment.
    Unlimited confessionalism - Achilles heel and the most characteristic of the "fortress." Tolstoy long suffered from the fact that is not able to write with the sincerity with which "Confession" Rousseau is written. And he suffered in vain. Tolstoy, with his 1st Will, simply could not write with such reckless frankness, which can only the 4th Will. And it is easy to give confession to it because the "fortress" lacks a sense of personal self-preservation, not the road will - the support of personality, the blow of which could seriously shake his being. For example, Emperor Claudius was able to speak publicly at the trial of one of the witnesses: "This is my mother's release, from the maids, but she always revered me as the master - I speak about it because in my house and now others do not recognize me for the master, "- and not at all to be confused. And do not be embarrassed because publicity was given what he, the emperor already knew: he is not a person and, most importantly, not a person, not at all concerned about his facelessness.
    Understated self-esteem is an incomparable, priceless gift. It makes the life of the "fortress" as anyone's easy, cloudless, and the psyche is so stable that even the time, which necessarily leaves the notches on our soul, unsupious mental mechanism, over the 4th Will is not imperious. When there is no solid basis of personality, flogging is an indispensable companion of life, no more effective than flogging a swamp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    I can imagine an LSE-D VFEL or VLEF would be quite the force to be reckoned with. I know an EII who I think is 2V! I believe her LIE husband is 3V or 4V and she has faithfully supported his dreams for years. She was his biggest help getting through grad school, which he almost didn't make it through due to issues with motivation. She even put her own education on hold so he could pursue his dream, but has expressed frustration didn't get more education herself.

    I remember thinking (but not saying), "I would never put my life dream on hold for anyone." Haha. A 1V thing to think, probably.

    At the same time, she has a husband and a kid and I don't, so you know....priorities.



    This was really good. Yes, I think this might be me. I just pursue my own things but I don't try to get others to do them with me (or for me). If I meet resistance from someone, I find myself quietly distancing from that person.

    However, I don't always know if this distancing is prompted by 1V or 1E...most recently I've distanced from people that I just feel bad around.
    I can't imagine what a 4V LIE is like hahaha. LIE strike me as the 1V type usually. Then I'm a 1F ILE so I guess anything is possible. I remember reading in a russian site about people who's PY type is their Socionics dual, in other words they are their own duals. So the ILE equivalent is LVEF (Because Einstein, who is an ILE in Socionics, is used as the LVEF poster child). A self-dualized ILE would have FEVL (Dumas) PY type. On the other hand, people who have the same POLR as their third function are said to have double POLR. So 3E for any xxTp type for instance.

    "I would never put my life dream on hold for anyone." Sounds either 1V or 3V haha. 3V because it devalues other people's will. So I could see a 3V in the "confident" state saying something like this to look like a 1V lol. 2V would find a way to compromise and fulfill both their goals and aspirations. 4V often don't even have any dreams to begin with. They take on the wishes of others instead.

    Hmmm, I dunno about patterns in terms of distancing. I could describe what 1E and 2E is like. 1E is extremely annoying to me lol. 1E is something like, overwhelming emotions all the time. Feels like 1E users have bipolar disorder or something. The tiniest little things they just overreact. Just like 1L overwhelms others with their closed-mindedness and 1F overwhelms with their body (often use brute force or even violence to solve problems), 1E overwhelms with emotions. 1E also feels very emotionally selfish. When they laugh they expect you to laugh along, when they cry they expect you to cry along. They don't care at all what you might be going through. Total opposite with 2E which attempts to liberate others in terms of emotional expression (and 3E appreciates this). 1E matches well with 4E, which is described as a 'mirror', they don't really have many feelings going on, but they enjoy watching and consuming drama and emotional expression and they often mimic emotions of their interlocutor. Funny enough the strong emotionality of 1E might be confused with Socionics Fe, but actually it's something different. Psyche Yoga E is more about HOW you use emotions rather than WHAT you are using. So 1E is selfish use of emotions, 2E is normative and helpful use. I'd say Fe/Fi leads often have 1E, and Fe/Fi creatives often have 2E but of course it's not a rule. At any rate, I get along better with Fi users with 2E than Fe users with 1E. Even though I value Fe myself. It's pretty amazing how Psyche Yoga predicts these things, it could seriously be used as a subtyping system for Socionics.

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    I will take the questionnaire, its just 30$ https://www.attitudinalpsyche.com/
    Results soon.

    Answering it here to fill out later today when I guy the thing, will EDIT this a few times:

    1. Describe a time when you used your own reasoning and analytical skills to learn a new idea or system. How do you know the method(s) you chose were ideal? If you don't know, what hurdles do you think keep you from understanding this knowledge? Can you imagine how your insight has aided in further research related to the idea or system? Expand as much as needed.

    As with most things IF I am uninterested in the subject I will most likely procrastinate and fail to acquire the necessary knowledge even if I try to push myself. If I'm interested however, it means I will take almost every opportunity to "dabble" and "play" in a flow state with the idea or system and no hurdle is big enough to overcome eventually by sheer attrition until I understand it. I prefer to be hands on, in the process and learn best by understanding how everything connects into a wider system. Why? Because its fun. For this reason I enjoy talking about my interests with others, debating certain aspects. I enjoy feedback from other people amd need to know their thoughts, to compare and contrast them to mine. While I may seem like I'm confident in my understanding of things, and may dismiss other people's ideas or argue against them or just devil's advocate, the reality is that I doubt myself quite a lot & feedback is something I rely on and consequently value. It is one thing to casually enjoy a lively discussion with another layman and another thing to argue with someone who has in depth knowledge about his/her own field. Just reading reference material and thinking for myself isn't enough. It is how I go about learning socionics for example, but its not limited to that. For deep insight and advancement one would have to reach mastery in a given field and this hasn't happened to me yet, so I haven't contributed to advancements or research. I'm also not academically inclined at all and more at home with pragmatic applied knowledge or "realistic" Holland code cluster "R". Despite this I sometimes dabble in more abstract areas of interest, which is how I found socionics, proceeded to read reference material, look up examples, try to figure myself out and argue with other people possibly for months on obscure forums and video-chat going through sources of information which ranged from dubious to more legitimate as well as asking a specialist in the field to see what he thought about my own personality. The overall picture is still incomplete as I proceed from details to the whole, but I'm confident of my level of knowledge, less so in experience. Regardless it is highly interesting and that keeps fueling my desire to know more.

    2. Describe a time when you exchanged reasoning and analysis with another person to learn a new idea or system. How do you respond to someone who criticizes your knowledge while asserting their own? How do you decide which sources of information are best? Do you believe that most people have better reasoning skills than you? Why or why not?

    As stated in the previous question I enjoy arguing with people. Even if I'm wrong about something I can only gain / learn from it, plus it is fun and I do this regularly and other people may have information that is unknown to me. If someone criticizes my knowledge I will argue back and they will need to prove to me that I'm not understanding something correctly or that I have false information. This doesn't mean that I'm confident in my knowledge, far from it, I doubt myself a lot, but I doubt them as well. I will learn from the process regardless of me or them being right in the end. As far as information sources go, imo proven reliable authorities in their own areas of expertise are the best.. BUT it doesn't mean that they know absolutely everything, which makes all sources valuable, more or less. I seem to think a lot of ppl have worse reasoning skills then me, but I often doubt myself and it is reasonable to assume that there are many ppl with vastly better reasoning skills than me. To think I am always right would be idiotic. By default I defer to the knowledge of an expert, especially if I haven't fully understood something, but may eventually start arguing once I do understand. Imo this is just common sense or being realistic.


    3. Talk about a time you set and achieved a goal. How much energy did you put into the entire process? How does this achievement enhance or demonstrate your willpower? Did you feel inspired by the challenge to complete the goal? Did this accomplishment display a part of your identity? If so, what is it? If that's difficult to answer, why do you think that is?

    Hmm.. I seem to either downplay my achievements in my mind or do not consider them a big deal? I'm not sure. One example would be acing my driver's exam on the first try even tho I'm not fond of driving and only really did it, because it was a general social expectation. Its common for me to do things out of obligation rather than me actually wanting to, but when it is about something I do want I tend to be relentless, stubborn and addicted. I often have no idea what I want tho. Other similar example would be getting Cambridge certifications for English and Goethe Institute certs for German as both are foreign languages to me. I'm not sure if they were worth doing, at the time it seemed like they would be worth doing. I'm just generally proud of how easily I seem to learn foreign languages to almost native lvl. I can't say I actually struggled either or how much effort these things involved.. imo I slacked off and probably could have put in more effort, but its hard for me to put effort into things I'm not super interested in and when it comes to things I'm interested in, I get lost in the process and lose track of the effort I expend. Sometimes I realize I have been up all night learning about something or doing something I'm into, time just flew by and I forgot to sleep. I don't really do achievement hunting and idk what all this says about me tbh.

    4. Talk about a time you set and achieved a goal with another person. How much energy did you put into the process of collaborating with them? Did you gain inspiration by the collective effort to complete the goal? How do you respond to someone asserting their opinion on what you should be responsible for? Is your character easy for others to see? When people have an opinion about your character, do you take it seriously? Why or why not?

    Most recent thing I can remember was a joint project with my father, we built this rather large brick-grill at the family home. Its for family reunions and grill parties. I don't know how much energy it required, but it took us days and we argued a lot about how exactly it should be done, I tore down part of it, because I was sure it wouldn't support the necessary load and rebuilt it myself lol. My father imo would have built it wrong, so I argued with him, disagreed and ended up rebuilding part of the structure myself. It was fun and we are proud of the result, not sure what you mean by inspiration tho. I don't respond well to people asserting their opinions about what I should be responsible for and I don't like to be told what to do tbh. It makes me angry and I aggressively push back. I also respond really badly, as in with aggression to coercion. Yeah I think my character is easy to see, its my experience that other people's observations about me tend to be often true even if at first I disagree with them.

    5. Tell us about a specific time that you vocalized or expressed a deep feeling or emotion. How did you decide which emotion was relevant to your personal values? Can you imagine how you might turn this experience into a chance to create art, stories or music? How might you do that? If this is difficult, explain what barriers hold you back from imagining this. Expand as much as necessary.

    I.. have a hard time expressing emotions even to someone like my mother. The only exceptions seem to have been girlfriends, love, or if I get really angry or sad and can't contain the outburst. I'd say I'm inhibited in this regard, sometimes ashamed or it feels weak and I want to hide my emotional attitudes. I'd rather grit my teeth and run to the toilet than to burst out crying in front of anyone including my own family. Regardless at my uncle's funeral I thought I had no feelings for him until I saw him in the coffin. I got blindsided by the most terrifying relentless sobbing I have ever experienced. It was more of a relief tho when I thought about it in hindsight as it confirmed to me that I cared about him.. so I wasn't, surprisingly, ashamed of that. I may also explode when really angry and smash things, happens very rarely tho. Normally I'm rather self contained and inhibited and put on a friendly mask. I don't think one can decide what emotions are relevant, I mean they have a life of their own it seems, like forces of nature. Unsure how they relate to my values or how to go about explaining that. I'm not really interested in turning my emotions into art, so I'd say disinterest prevents me. Come to think about it, I never considered doing this, but now that I did.. I have some ideas as to how I can turn emotions into art. Seems to be visual ideas tho, painting / photography. Interesting.

    6. Tell us about a time that someone expressed their deep feelings or emotions to you. Did you encourage or accept these expressions? Do you ever consider the appropriateness of those emotions? Do you think about the value of culture, art and music often? If so, where do you draw the line between what’s good or bad? If you disagree with the notion of "good or bad art, culture or music" please explain further.

    Weird, not much comes to mind tbh, do I take other people's feelings for granted or do ppl around me not really express emotions that freely? Not sure. Answering these questions seems to prove difficult. I remember people doing things for me to express their feelings, example when my girlfriend at the time got into book-binding and as a token of her affection restored my favorite book, which was in tatters. Aren't all emotions appropriate? They exist for a reason. I'm often ashamed of mine however and the highly negative emotions of other people are difficult to tolerate. While preference in art and culture is subjective imo it can be argued that certain attitudes and expressions are detrimental to the overall healthy functioning of society. This seems to be the case for example nowadays where a lot of nihilism and vulgarity is on display. It seems to mirror the social rot and illness, growing like a fungus. "Disgusting" is probably the most appropriate word.

    7. Describe a time or situation where you managed your resources to fit your needs. Did you do so to keep yourself comfortable, or were there other reasons? What drives you to avoid discomfort if so? Do you believe you're highly skilled at organizing your environment? What resources do you consider a necessity to keep in your surroundings? If this is difficult to answer, why do you think that is? Explain further as much as needed.

    Well ever since I started working I have been managing my resources and partially the resources of my parents as well tbh or more precisely I advised them on how to get out of debt, starting with me paying off my mother's debts and they managed to save up enough for renovating the family home combined with a bit of financial help from me, which I consider as only a small repayment for them raising me. Comfort for me I guess means being financially secure. Physical comfort isn't that important tbh. I do weird stuff such as sleeping on the floor for 3 years out of simple curiosity as it is said its healthy or taking ice showers because it is said they improve willpower and health or water-fasting for 7 days, because it is said one achieves mental clarity, so curiosity. Mind you I could not return to a soft bed afterwards and had to get the hardest bed I could find lol. I'm disorganized and my living space while clean tends to be chaotic. It gets progressively more chaotic depending on my mood, a reflection of my state of mind. I'm rather minimalist and can get by on little tbh, so I don't own much stuff, hard to say exactly what resources I like to keep around, I guess electricity, internet, water, food, housing, simple clothes without branding, my car. To be honest I kind of find normal living surroundings to be boring and I want to transform mine into this "fey-wild" enchanted place using automation, lighting and so on. Good aesthetics are important. The real world often seems dull.

    8. Describe a time or situation where someone else managed your resources. Did you trust them? Why or why not? How do you respond to advice regarding your personal needs, space and comfort? Are the opinions of others regarding money important to you? What is your response to those who are interested in your personal tastes, aesthetic preferences, and belongings? Do you discuss or share them freely? Why or why not?

    I guess this would be my parents when I was a kid. Ofc I trusted them. As an adult I haven't been in any situation where someone else would manage my resources and I wouldn't trust anyone else with that anyway as that sort of thing would be me relinquishing control to someone else and that is never going to happen. I like to be in control of my time and material resources, energy and so on. I'm always open to other people's suggestions and advice regarding my needs, space or comfort as long as they do not try to impose these on me and I can refuse if I disagree or know better. I often give other people such advice as well even if unsolicited. I follow certain people who are proven to be financial experts and know what they are talking about when it comes to money since schools do not teach people how to do personal finance, to save and invest or manage assets and liabilities.. so naturally I care about money. I like to freely discuss personal tastes, aesthetics, preferences .. but don't touch or break my stuff. Its fun, plus people often have interesting ideas and info.
    Last edited by SGF; 02-24-2021 at 09:18 AM.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    . 1E is extremely annoying to me lol. 1E is something like, overwhelming emotions all the time. Feels like 1E users have bipolar disorder or something. The tiniest little things they just overreact. Just like 1L overwhelms others with their closed-mindedness and 1F overwhelms with their body (often use brute force or even violence to solve problems), 1E overwhelms with emotions. 1E also feels very emotionally selfish. When they laugh they expect you to laugh along, when they cry they expect you to cry along. They don't care at all what you might be going through. Total opposite with 2E which attempts to liberate others in terms of emotional expression (and 3E appreciates this). 1E matches well with 4E, which is described as a 'mirror', they don't really have many feelings going on, but they enjoy watching and consuming drama and emotional expression and they often mimic emotions of their interlocutor. Funny enough the strong emotionality of 1E might be confused with Socionics Fe, but actually it's something different. Psyche Yoga E is more about HOW you use emotions rather than WHAT you are using. So 1E is selfish use of emotions, 2E is normative and helpful use. I'd say Fe/Fi leads often have 1E, and Fe/Fi creatives often have 2E but of course it's not a rule. At any rate, I get along better with Fi users with 2E than Fe users with 1E. Even though I value Fe myself. It's pretty amazing how Psyche Yoga predicts these things, it could seriously be used as a subtyping system for Socionics.
    Yeah. I'd imagine 3E is the sort of person who potentially delivers it back while 2E does not take an offense from the knee jerk reaction of 3E and later chills things down.
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    Darn it, this thread is distracting me when I should be working.

    *Ti activation level 9000*

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    So you could think about it this way: What bothers you the most? People who are overly dogmatic, closed to discussion and don't listen to others opinion, or people who are overly materialistic, concerned about their appearance and carnal pleasure or greedy? Of course these are extremes of behaviour and not all 1L are dogmatic and not all 1F are materialistic but both of these are selfish regarding that element, and offputting to those who have 3L or 3F.
    The former.

    Being active is not necessarily a sign of high F. Generally high V and high F indicate activity. For F, usually 2F and 3F are the most active or restless. 1F can be active if they find value in it (usually monetary or physical improvement value). 2F is the most active type. They're referred to in Russian as 'Workers' because they're always doing something.
    High V could explain it, then. Goals energize me. Even hardships, in a way, although I can do nothing for long stretches when the goal is done. When there's a truly inspiring goal I can easily get out of routine or neglect eating/sleeping (less so as I get older).

    So about 3F: 3F is often quite active, interested in exercising, etc. I think the biggest problem with 3F is body image issues and anything related to body processes. The overreact to any physical stimuli, sounds, touch, taste, etc. And they hate it when someone (like me) rushes things like eating or cooking for instance. Since 3F is processional Physics, cooking and eating, for them is all about the process. So they get pissed when they cook something nice to you and you slide it right into your mouth in one huge bite. Most of the people in my life are 4F or 2F so nobody ever made a big deal about it. But I find it that all of the few 3F I met in my life complain about how fast I eat and that I don't savour my food. In my defense food is just so tasty that I can't help gobbling it up like I'm starved every time lol. They accuse me of stress-eating or whatever. I just like food damnit!
    4F on the other hand, can be a bit hard to pinpoint since it's basically the absence of Physical 'attachment' so to speak. 1F is described as being full of vitality. So 4F is described as 'lacking vitality'. This is where they got that thing about 4F being prone to suicidal thoughts. I don't think it's about suicide as it is maybe a sort of melancholy to their temperament. 1F is described as being 'big', which makes sense for someone having excess Physics. Usually they are tall, and either fat, muscular, or well-built, even the ladies. 4F on the other hand are described as thin/asthenic. The positive side to 4F is a fearlessness when it comes to their body. And also not being afraid of seeing a bloody scene of crime for instance. Which would make any 3F instantly faint lol.
    That's hilarious about 3F people caring how you eat. Are they also the people to get annoyed by how others chew, or is that just most people? Ha. This does help clarify 3F vs 4F. I still am not completely sure of myself. I'm definitely an ectomorph/slender, was also notoriously squeamish as a child. Violence doesn't bother me as much as graphic close-ups of wounds, which I can't handle. I have insecurities about certain physical features, like most people, but I don't think I'm obsessive. I do have some sensory sensitives but maybe that's just introversion.

    Hmmm....

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