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Thread: Attitudinal Psyche type system

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    So in order to differentiate the 1st and 4th function a good way to see it is in terms of stress: When people are stressed, they overuse the 1st function and shut down the 4th. So in your case you could figure out if you indulge your senses or start thinking a lot when stressed. I thought it was odd how I could be a 1F as an ILE with 1D Si and then I noticed that I eat a lot/exercise/etc. to relieve stress and so it all made sense lol.
    Do you think the 3rd can become unhealthy, too? I overthink majorly when stressed. Enough to make me wonder if I'm 1L.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Third will is fascinating, at least as described here. In this site Stalin is often used as an example, and in other places I've seen Trump typed as 3rd will. It seems like people with 3rd will both hate power, and crave it at the same time. (Sorry if I'm mischaracterizing) It's interesting to read about.
    Maybe it makes life seem easier but then you only want to accept the parts you like. Ambivalence and when in power it may create extreme mayhem especially when mixed with mental problems such as paranoia. LII with 3L, Ben Vasserlan is extremely ambivalent about his L.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    In regards to the potential of being 1E: are you Fi valuing? I'm trying to determine how a 1E Fi valuer would differ from a 1E Fe valuer.
    Now I can't say for sure because I haven't met 1E types with good Socionics compatibility but I met 1E EIE and EII and the relationship can be pretty bad. Dated an 1E EIE, was originally attracted to her Fe but it became really annoying after a while. Not sure if it's because of Fe-lead or 1E or the combination of both lol. Now that I think about it, a few people in my family are/were EII with 1E and 2E. EII EVLF? mum can be a pain to deal with lol. EII FELV? aunt is really nice to me, EII LEVF? grandpa was also really nice to me. Could be coincidence though. But it seems that 2E on my 3E eases the supervision that EII exert over me lol.
    At any rate 1E seem quite selfish to me. However they won't ignore the fundamental principles of the underlying socionics function. So 1E Fi shouldn't be so selfish that they violate moral/decency principles, 1E Fe shouldn't be so selfish that they ruin the emotional atmosphere or restrict emotional expression. Just a guess though.

    On the other hand I suppose 2E boosts the good side of the function and softens the bad side. So 2E Fi won't sour the atmosphere by trying to lecture people on what's right or wrong, 2E Fe won't throw decency out the window when trying to raise the mood or express themselves, etc. My experience with 1E Fe at least is that they can say and do morally disagreeable things just for emotional expression. And also the few I met tried to emotionally manipulate me a lot. Things like making me jealous or mad all the time. Seriously it's like they were trying their hardest to piss me off every single day. With 1E Fi the problem I'd say is being morally meddlesome and subjecting EVERYTHING I do to moral judgement. But I grew up with EII mum so it doesn't bother me as much lol.

    Now that I recall, there was an SEI girl I met who was probably 2E in retrospect. We got along well but there was no spark or anything. All I can say is that she was pleasant to be around lol. She would donate half of her lunch to me every day which makes me think she was 4F and somehow noticed I'm 1F or maybe I'm imagining things lol. Perhaps the absence of conflict is the basis for good relations after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    Do you think the 3rd can become unhealthy, too? I overthink majorly when stressed. Enough to make me wonder if I'm 1L.
    I don't think the third function is engaged that much during stress, but it is a great source of stress. But it kinda makes sense that a third-function problem requires a third-function solution. So a 3E would ideally engage in E whenever some E problem occurs (constructive) instead of using say 1F to punch a wall, 1L to overthink things and get nowhere, etc. (not constructive). I would say that when things are running smoothly then people use their 2nd and 3rd freely, then when a crisis occurs (usually due to 3rd or 4th incompetence), 1st function is engaged full throttle to deal with it (result-oriented) and finally when the crisis is settled they go back to the 2nd and 3rd function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    Thanks thistle. Yeah, I'm generally diplomatic and democratic, and I think 2V fits pretty well. However I'm extremely driven towards certain goals, am an entrepreneur, and it's difficult to stop the striving.

    I've gone back and forth between accommodating other people and then being like "you know what?! I need to get this thing done for myself." A lot of my life has been a balancing act between what I want/how I feel and what others want and how they feel, but in the end I always go after my Ni goals even if it's not done immediately

    In regards to the potential of being 1E: are you Fi valuing? I'm trying to determine how a 1E Fi valuer would differ from a 1E Fe valuer.

    I'm honest about how I'm doing/feeling and am usually told that I'm "genuine," "passionate." I'm reserved and hold back if I don't trust the person, though. My creative Fe usually doesn't allow me to negatively impact other people with expression. I'm careful to avoid hurting people's feelings, causing offense, or letting negativity spill over onto them. Considering the emotional impact on others seems 2E, but maybe it's just my Fe. I also grew up with a 3E father and I think this caused me to be more constrained in my expression.
    Is your experience with goal-setting that you are energised by obstacles? That's how the "you know what?!" came across to me. ha. I appreciate this attitude in others.

    2V for me is a loss of vitality when I can't get others onboard. At work I would be the first to suggest a meeting, to understand better everyone's preferences and needs. The idea that someone is doing their work begrudgingly or just because I said so, upsets me greatly. I tend to include myself in endeavours "Let's do this , let's do that" and if I note that a person is uncomfortable or resistant, I won't press further. My goals are centered around collaboration.

    In the cognitive tests I score high in both Fi and Fe, but the Fi activist stereotype is unlike my willfullness. I'm not out there broadcasting my values...it is something more akin to influencing people as I meet them one-to-one. "passionate" as synonymous with 1E I do like.

    Being aware of your expression's effect on possible outcomes; the room mood, and choosing to influence that... skillful Fe :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    2L stands out, and based on those results E would not be unconscious. Where do the other tests, particularly bestsocionics, place your physics?

    I suspect one of my friends has 1F. If I'm correct, these people just *do*what works for them in terms of exercise routines and the cut of clothing they suit best (quick examples). What works for them does not have to be polished, it is more about adherence. They are pretty self assured/unhesitant in this area and can provide advice if prompted, but what you do is not their prerogative.

    Do certain habits relating to the "material" centre you, or do you view these as burdensome; keeping you from fields you'd rather spend your time on?
    -Where do the other tests, particularly bestsocionics, place your physics?

    20210313_232503.jpg

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    -Do certain habits relating to the "material" centre you, or do you view these as burdensome; keeping you from fields you'd rather spend your time on?

    If meaning routines like shaving, toothbrushing, going to the hairdresser... then it's very burdensome. I might shave or go to the hairdresser from half a year to half a year (this is partly because I don't like to spend money or time there when I don't need to have short hair). In fact I've been trying haircuts with the specific goal of having one that looks decent when it grows more so I can go far less.
    If meaning taking care of the house, usually something or someone needs to force me to do it.
    If meaning physical labor, I can enjoy some forms of hard physical work specially when it's a little bit varied. Monotonous or detailed physical work is not for me. Even if that detailed work were to be far less hard I would vastly prefer the hard, general and varied work.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    Your results are
    similar to mine. High 2L, At first I thought it wouldn't be possible to be 1F as ILE so I thought perhaps I was LFEV or something. But then as I read more descriptions and thought about it carefully I realized that my F is very result-oriented meanwhile my L is more democratic. So 1F and 2L made better sense.
    My scores were pretty strange though, my highlighted numbers were 2L, 2V, 2F and 4E. But in terms of highest possible number for each position, 1F was the largest at 0.6 or 0.7, (1L was 0.3 perhaps), 2L was >0.9, and then 3E was greater than 3V and 4E also slightly greater than 4V. I opted for 3E and 4V based on descriptions.

    The best way to type imo is to think in terms of process vs result. Which are your two strongest functions? Are they process oriented (do them for their own sake, fun, etc.) or results oriented (do them for results, then leave them aside)?
    Repeat this process with your two weakest functions. It's a lot harder since you don't use them as much but you can notice the difference between process and results. The third function is kind of a background function which is very receptive to information about the function albeit incompetent at applying the function effectively. So 3F is very physically perceptive, 3L is logically perceptive, etc. Meanwhile the fourth function is more like a switch that you turn on and off. It turns off automatically in times of stress.

    Something funny is that since the 1st and 4th function are both result oriented then they look quite similar. Especially 1L and 4L and 1E and 4E, which are exclusively verbal/emotional so there's no physical or 'attitude' difference that you see between 1F/4F and 1V/4V. So in order to differentiate the 1st and 4th function a good way to see it is in terms of stress: When people are stressed, they overuse the 1st function and shut down the 4th. So in your case you could figure out if you indulge your senses or start thinking a lot when stressed. I thought it was odd how I could be a 1F as an ILE with 1D Si and then I noticed that I eat a lot/exercise/etc. to relieve stress and so it all made sense lol.

    The LIE equivalent in PY is probably VLEF. It wouldn't be weird if you were FLEV since they're in the same sexta.
    -When people are stressed, they overuse the 1st function and shut down the 4th. So in your case you could figure out if you indulge your senses or start thinking a lot when stressed.

    It's quite hard for me to realize my own emotional states, although sometimes something is bugging me (which might be one of the reasons for insomnia) and my head goes on and around thinking about the same problem, and then forget or try to not remember it or think about it.
    I say this because I cannot recognize or remember moments of stress, and I cannot correlate what actions could be due to stress right now. I have a low EQ in these things.
    The times I have been hugely stressed I can recognize. These times I have reacted poorly to it, I tend to think worse, act more dumb and be harsher under stress. Do not take what I say for reacting violently, it's almost impossible to make me react with violence, I rather back up from anything (If I back up from something while knowing I am right because of circunstances, or because of tying to avoid a worse situation, the common thing for me is to get very angry inside).
    The few times I've done sports have been under a very calm mood, unstressed. When stressed the last thing I can think of is excersize.

    I might overeat if I get too bored, I have a liking for some aesthethic configurations, and I have a fairly "decent" dressing style.
    Last edited by RBRS; 03-13-2021 at 11:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Is your experience with goal-setting that you are energised by obstacles? That's how the "you know what?!" came across to me. ha. I appreciate this attitude in others.
    Sometimes I do feel like I need something to overcome, yes. Extremely self motivated. It's more like I need something to aim for--often obstacles are energizing, sometimes not. It gets tricky being Se inferior. I certainly don't have unlimited energy for my goals or always the greatest efficiency (poor Te).

    2V for me is a loss of vitality when I can't get others onboard. At work I would be the first to suggest a meeting, to understand better everyone's preferences and needs. The idea that someone is doing their work begrudgingly or just because I said so, upsets me greatly. I tend to include myself in endeavours "Let's do this , let's do that" and if I note that a person is uncomfortable or resistant, I won't press further. My goals are centered around collaboration.
    This was helpful. You sound like you'd be great to work for. Meetings and group endeavors are decidedly not my favorite, ha. There's a director at my conservatory who sounds like you. Periodic yet unobtrusive emails to check in and say "here are new opportunities, here's a poll/survey, here's a meeting to check in" and she very much leads by example and is involved in all those things herself.

    Being aware of your expression's effect on possible outcomes; the room mood, and choosing to influence that... skillful Fe :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    Now that I recall, there was an SEI girl I met who was probably 2E in retrospect. We got along well but there was no spark or anything. All I can say is that she was pleasant to be around lol. She would donate half of her lunch to me every day which makes me think she was 4F and somehow noticed I'm 1F or maybe I'm imagining things lol. Perhaps the absence of conflict is the basis for good relations after all.
    Did you at least get her number?! Hehe, just teasing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    I don't think the third function is engaged that much during stress, but it is a great source of stress. But it kinda makes sense that a third-function problem requires a third-function solution. So a 3E would ideally engage in E whenever some E problem occurs (constructive) instead of using say 1F to punch a wall, 1L to overthink things and get nowhere, etc. (not constructive). I would say that when things are running smoothly then people use their 2nd and 3rd freely, then when a crisis occurs (usually due to 3rd or 4th incompetence), 1st function is engaged full throttle to deal with it (result-oriented) and finally when the crisis is settled they go back to the 2nd and 3rd function.
    Good point. My thoughts can really spin and become stuck/unproductive when stressed (don't they call that the Ni-Ti loop in MBTI?), and suddenly I'll feel like I have to solve a not-very-important problem. I do this for a while but then get exhausted.

    I think I actually return to goal setting/list making as a way to feel some relief for my stress. Which seems very 1V returning to its base. Fortunately with adulthood I've learned to take better physical care of myself, which I used to ignore. Now I will get outside, eat better, or just sleep. Makes a world of difference. So maybe incorporating the 4th holds something of a key.
    (Then there's the separate category of "pandemic-induced crisis").....

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    @Frddy what do you appreciate someone to do for you when you're stressed, like what would strike you as being not only thoughtful but genuinely helpful?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    @Frddy what do you appreciate someone to do for you when you're stressed, like what would strike you as being not only thoughtful but genuinely helpful?
    That's a tough question. I imagine the best thing might be to leave it be and leaving me to deal with it, taking attention towards something different or simply trying to not be an obstacle to things.

    As I've said I tend to react poorly, and being very insistent on it(for example, trying to "help" by being invasive, or asking me what happens too many times after I have already explained) can result in me throwing out words that can be harsh, and start a discussion which only makes it all slower to process. It might make things easier to explain that this "dealing with it" is usually done inside, without external expression or acts out of place.
    Last edited by RBRS; 03-14-2021 at 12:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    Did you at least get her number?! Hehe, just teasing...
    She got my number first and messaged me a few times to 'study' together. I turned her down cos I wasn't romantically interested or anything and we just stayed friends for a while. Then she sorta disappeared from classes one day. Sad story I guess but I figured it wouldn't work out if we didn't have anything in common. Sure enough in my longest friendships and relationships we had more common ground and not so much socionic compatibility lol. But I dunno, people are so complicated and I don't wanna think about it too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    She got my number first and messaged me a few times to 'study' together. I turned her down cos I wasn't romantically interested or anything and we just stayed friends for a while. Then she sorta disappeared from classes one day. Sad story I guess but I figured it wouldn't work out if we didn't have anything in common. Sure enough in my longest friendships and relationships we had more common ground and not so much socionic compatibility lol. But I dunno, people are so complicated and I don't wanna think about it too much.
    Yeah, if you weren't feeling a spark then you weren't, and having things in common is huge. Socionics doesn't explain everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    Good point. My thoughts can really spin and become stuck/unproductive when stressed (don't they call that the Ni-Ti loop in MBTI?), and suddenly I'll feel like I have to solve a not-very-important problem. I do this for a while but then get exhausted.

    I think I actually return to goal setting/list making as a way to feel some relief for my stress. Which seems very 1V returning to its base. Fortunately with adulthood I've learned to take better physical care of myself, which I used to ignore. Now I will get outside, eat better, or just sleep. Makes a world of difference. So maybe incorporating the 4th holds something of a key.
    (Then there's the separate category of "pandemic-induced crisis").....
    Oh the fabled Ni-Ti loop, heard that so many times before hahah. Basically it's just an excuse IEIs use for being lazy I mean MBTI INFJ has supposedly Ni + Ti but a good portion of MBTI INFJ type as Socionics EII so no strong Ni or Ti in there. If cognitive functions could feed input into each other infinitely like that then every type would have some kind of loop, right? Never heard of Ne-Fe loop, Si-Ti loop or whatever. Generally stressing over unproductivity is a Te-POLR quirk. Well this Te-oriented society cares about productivity and all that but I feel like the only types that really fret it are Te-POLR. For xEI it gets really bad probably because the Ti takes precedence over Te and therefore Ti is overused when trying to solve a problem (Te gets 'blocked' by Ti, reducing productivity). And then for IEI there's the added problem of Ni being such an inert function. So Te and Se are the most productive functions and Ti and Ni the least productive ones. Maybe that could be an explanation for the Ni-Ti loop.

    Maybe it is 1V, I don't know many 1V to say for sure though. Oh yeah doing the bare minimum with the 4th function is great. The problem is that it's supposed to be externally supplied, kind of like Socionics suggestive function. Since it's also result oriented there's something satisfying about getting it out of the way lol. Finishing some huge task feels great to me. Setting my mind to do it and working on it, not so much lol. Ironically I find physical labour pleasurable and mental labour not so much, contrary to typical ILEs. The 1F has a great influence over some quirks in my personality that cannot be explained with Socionics.

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    So maybe not the "loop," then. Being lazy generally isn't an issue for me, so chalk it up to more stress lately and the collective trauma of the pandemic.

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    I think I'm 3V because as long as I can remember I have rebelled against control by creating new rules to protect my views [not necessarily for my own benefit] and I have usually deployed methods that used existing loopholes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    Maybe it is 1V, I don't know many 1V to say for sure though. Oh yeah doing the bare minimum with the 4th function is great. The problem is that it's supposed to be externally supplied, kind of like Socionics suggestive function. Since it's also result oriented there's something satisfying about getting it out of the way lol. Finishing some huge task feels great to me. Setting my mind to do it and working on it, not so much lol. Ironically I find physical labour pleasurable and mental labour not so much, contrary to typical ILEs. The 1F has a great influence over some quirks in my personality that cannot be explained with Socionics.
    I have so much trouble with physical effort. I think I need someone to babysit me after my cleanliness. I kind of do OK with large projects although they get bit lopsided towards the end. It is better if tackle problems down with some new ideas. In a way getting thrown into the abyss is kind of great although the constant effort is hard. Just imagine someone who is fallen from the cliff but manages to grab something along the way and comes crawling back later with a great story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frddy View Post

    -Do certain habits relating to the "material" centre you, or do you view these as burdensome; keeping you from fields you'd rather spend your time on?

    If meaning routines like shaving, toothbrushing, going to the hairdresser... then it's very burdensome. I might shave or go to the hairdresser from half a year to half a year (this is partly because I don't like to spend money or time there when I don't need to have short hair). In fact I've been trying haircuts with the specific goal of having one that looks decent when it grows more so I can go far less.
    If meaning taking care of the house, usually something or someone needs to force me to do it.
    If meaning physical labor, I can enjoy some forms of hard physical work specially when it's a little bit varied. Monotonous or detailed physical work is not for me. Even if that detailed work were to be far less hard I would vastly prefer the hard, general and varied work.

    -When people are stressed, they overuse the 1st function and shut down the 4th. So in your case you could figure out if you indulge your senses or start thinking a lot when stressed.

    It's quite hard for me to realize my own emotional states, although sometimes something is bugging me (which might be one of the reasons for insomnia) and my head goes on and around thinking about the same problem, and then forget or try to not remember it or think about it.
    I say this because I cannot recognize or remember moments of stress, and I cannot correlate what actions could be due to stress right now. I have a low EQ in these things.
    The times I have been hugely stressed I can recognize. These times I have reacted poorly to it, I tend to think worse, act more dumb and be harsher under stress. Do not take what I say for reacting violently, it's almost impossible to make me react with violence, I rather back up from anything (If I back up from something while knowing I am right because of circunstances, or because of tying to avoid a worse situation, the common thing for me is to get very angry inside).
    The few times I've done sports have been under a very calm mood, unstressed. When stressed the last thing I can think of is excersize.

    I might overeat if I get too bored, I have a liking for some aesthethic configurations, and I have a fairly "decent" dressing style.
    Just adding my thoughts before they disappear again.

    I know the test didn't say so, but how you go about physics (acceptably, decently) does not rule out 4F - in my mind. The specific haircut goal made me smile because it is something I relate to; wanting to economise or be minimal in certain areas, so I don't have to keep tabs on their upkeep...how this manifests in me is that I don't devote time to beauty regime - I use three non irritating products, sunscreen included, and the aim is to look tidy enough that people leave me be.

    Returning to 1F, there is heightened awareness of the need to periodically stretch legs, to simply move. Staying curled over a laptop in a dark room is out of the question and they will feel the urge to go for a run for their own good, may even say things like "I need to sweat". Knowingness that the exertion will facilitate a good mood F>E. 1F types will not mind receiving compliments on their physique, which is a source of pride and pleasure. I'll guess that 4F types may find such evaluations uncomfortable (or wish to be complimented on other aspects of themselves).

    Anyway, it got me wondering whether you are closer to VLEF than FVLE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Just adding my thoughts before they disappear again.

    I know the test didn't say so, but how you go about physics (acceptably, decently) does not rule out 4F - in my mind. The specific haircut goal made me smile because it is something I relate to; wanting to economise or be minimal in certain areas, so I don't have to keep tabs on their upkeep...how this manifests in me is that I don't devote time to beauty regime - I use three non irritating products, sunscreen included, and the aim is to look tidy enough that people leave me be.

    Returning to 1F, there is heightened awareness of the need to periodically stretch legs, to simply move. Staying curled over a laptop in a dark room is out of the question and they will feel the urge to go for a run for their own good, may even say things like "I need to sweat". Knowingness that the exertion will facilitate a good mood F>E. 1F types will not mind receiving compliments on their physique, which is a source of pride and pleasure. I'll guess that 4F types may find such evaluations uncomfortable (or wish to be complimented on other aspects of themselves).

    Anyway, it got me wondering whether you are closer to VLEF than FVLE.
    -Returning to 1F, there is heightened awareness of the need to periodically stretch legs, to simply move. Staying curled over a laptop in a dark room is out of the question and they will feel the urge to go for a run for their own good, may even say things like "I need to sweat". Knowingness that the exertion will facilitate a good mood F>E.

    Two years ago I have had my bed on the floor without a bed base, and had no problem with it (My girlfriend even commented that my room looked like a prison cell or something), I can live pretty good like that. About going out or anything, I only get out of my house if I need to (Work, doing burocratic paperwork, etc) and to pick up my partner, so no, I do not identify much with what you wrote.

    -
    1F types will not mind receiving compliments on their physique, which is a source of pride and pleasure. I'll guess that 4F types may find such evaluations uncomfortable (or wish to be complimented on other aspects of themselves).

    I relate a lot to that last phrase, In fact I can tolerate such comments if they come from very close people, if not I don't like it at all.

    Anyways, either I don't have the correct sources, or 1V is unlikely.



  20. #180
    Haikus SGF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Returning to 1F, there is heightened awareness of the need to periodically stretch legs, to simply move. Staying curled over a laptop in a dark room is out of the question and they will feel the urge to go for a run for their own good, may even say things like "I need to sweat". Knowingness that the exertion will facilitate a good mood F>E.
    I can play video games 18 hours non stop or sit through grueling hour long raids. I can read books for days only stopping to sleep or binge watch something for days. Sometimes I work from dusk to dawn and forgo sleep and food. I slept on the floor for 3 years as an experiment. Did water fast for 7 days as an experiment. Can put creature-comforts aside to get something done no problem. IF I have some kind of medical issue I fix it asap. When I had to get operated didn't really hesitate to get a proper diagnostic at a reputable private clinic, to find a competent surgeon and willingly walked into the operating room. Stuff like that. I like getting shit done, feels good.

    Lol I can eat the same food every day for months as long as it logically meets nutritional requirements.

    1F types will not mind receiving compliments on their physique, which is a source of pride and pleasure. I'll guess that 4F types may find such evaluations uncomfortable (or wish to be complimented on other aspects of themselves).
    Compliments are embarrassing in general tbh. I never know how to react. Especially if they come from a stranger... literal "WTF" moment for me. Can't tell if genuine or just messing with me.

    1F (FLEV)
    Last edited by SGF; 03-15-2021 at 12:30 PM.

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    Machine translations of each placement, and I pulled out a short summary quote from each:

    FIRST
    "The first is a hammer, equally suitable for destruction and creation. However, it is a hammer with all the conveniences and inconveniences arising from this circumstance, a blacksmith's hammer, not a jeweler's hammer. Products created by them, the subtlety of the finishes do not differ, they are rough, simple and focused more on reliability than on beauty."

    FIRST FEATURE

    The main feature of the First function is its ABUNDANCE. If we feel that nature has endowed us with something not just in affluence, but even with some busting, then it is safe to say that this is the First function. Whatever it is: 1st Emotion, 1st Will, 1st Logic, 1st Physics.

    The first function is the strongest aspect of our nature, so at the first contact with other people, we quite unconsciously put it on the table as our trump card. For example, the owner of the 1st Physics, going to a meeting with a stranger, first (again I stress - quite unconsciously) will think about whether her cleavage is deep enough, and then about the content of the conversation, its role in it, etc.

    The first function is our main weapon in conflicts: family, manufacturing or whatever.

    In this regard, the most banal everyday truths are gaining an interesting new perspective. Let's say, it is considered that when a husband beats his wife, and the wife at the same time cries, then, then, the husband - the beast, and the wife - the sufferer. However, this is not the case. Just the husband 1st Physics, and his wife 1st Emotion and each of them uses in the conflict the strongest weapons. There are known cases of the same kind with reverse sexual sign. Or here's another example, in Plutarch's words, "Darius, Xerxes's father, said in praise to himself that in battles and in the face of danger he was only more intelligent," i.e. Darius had the 1st Logic.

    In the very use of the First function as a weapon there would be no great sin (you have to fight something!), if, among other things, the First in these battles was not too cruel. And the first is merciless. The very effective nature of it does not tolerate compromise and requires an absolute victory in the struggle. 1st Physics beat the enemy if not to death, then to a complete blackout, the 1st Will achieves undivided power, absolute leadership, 1st Logic in the debates owns only one truth - its own and, proving it, does not stop until it defeats the opponent on all points, the 1st Emotion screams until it stuns and makes him silence.

    The first is a hammer, equally suitable for destruction and creation. However, it is a hammer with all the conveniences and inconveniences arising from this circumstance, a hammer blacksmith, not a hammer jeweler. Products created by them, the subtlety of the finishes do not differ, they are rough, simple and focused more on reliability than on beauty.

    The strongest side of his nature is usually given the status of a tool of supreme authenticity. Therefore, another angle of the First function - superiority in terms of the theory of cognition. On the gnos anyological basis, the First clearly divides humanity into four unequal parts: sensualists (1st Physics), voluntarists (1st Will), mystics (1st Emotion), rationalists (1st Logic).

    The illusion of absolute authenticity obtained with the help of the First Knowledge, among other things, well explains such an amazing phenomenon for our enlightened age, as a mass fascination with magic, astrology and similar superstitions. Larchik opens simply: all this mass of believers in mysticism are emotional. Therefore, rationalists can continue to walk on the head, proving the ineptitude of superstitions. Useless. For the 1st Emotion, the black cat on the road will always be more reliable than all the arguments of reason.

    The first function is the most important and most reliable tool for perceiving the world around him, through the prism of which a person always begins to analyze the picture before him. In this connection, a charming anecdote from a series of anecdotes about Rzhevsky's handrail is recalled: "The lieutenant and the lady walk along the pond in which the swans swim.

    The lady (enthusiastically): "The lieutenant, would you like to be a swan?" Him: Cold water? No, forget it!"

    I think the reader has already guessed what kind of person in this anecdote the first function. Of course, it was the 1st Emotion of the lady painted in emotional romantic tones the picture opening before her, while the 1st Physics lieutenant made the same picture exclusively physiological in perception.

    Probably, over time, when both will use other funcia to analyze the environment, the positions of the heroes of the anecdote will converge: the lady will feel all the uncomfortableness of sitting in cold water, and the lieutenant will appreciate the beauty of the landscape. But at first their view of the world will certainly be excellent and certainly derived from the First functions.

    The first function is precisely because of its redundancy is the main force that the person himself feels most clearly, hears in himself its mighty breath. For example, Mikhail Chekhov and Vakhtangov met once, and in the course of the conversation both of them, a great actor and a great director, "had to confess to each other that we are familiar with the sometimes incomprehensible force that arises in us. I (Chekhov) - while playing on stage, he (Vakhtangov) - in everyday life. This power gave me power over the audience, it gave me power over the people around him."

    Chekhov and Vakhtangov did not give names to the forces that felt in themselves, but now, given the special nature of the First function, we can name them. Of course, Mikhail Chekhov had the 1st Emotion, and it was she who conditioned both the choice of the acting profession and the power that he had over the audience, the power of emotional dictatorship. Vakhtangov, on the other, had a mandatory 1st Will for the big director - a force that allows to keep in check actors and others in general.

    Although a person usually snews, grooms and cherishes his first function, his, and especially the people around him, does not leave a feeling of some dysfunction and even ugliness of the First function. And there is this feeling of redundancy. As Shakespeare wrote:

    “... Sweet honey

    We're disgusted by the excess of sweetness,

    It spoils appetite with excess."

    So it is with the First Feature. It gives redundancy pathology, and that poisons the person the joy of admiring the most powerful side of his nature.

    It seems strange, but even fundamental religious notions of that. that there is a God in his being and what is the immortality of man - is formed under the direct influence of the First function.

    Everyone is religious, but each is religious in its own way. Even the 1st Logic is religious, but its faith has nothing to do with the mystical idolatry of the people's faith. The essence of religion of the 1st Logic is the absolutization of oneself - the mind.

    1st Logic, in its usual manner, looking around and systemizing the world around. finds it so intelligently arranged, mathematically corrected, that soon comes to the conclusion that there is no higher Creator, the first and practically the only property of which is the Mind. From Anaxagora to Einstein, any holder of the 1st Logic, taking the trouble to ponder the problem of the original source of all things, willy-nilly comes to the self-portrait religion, in which the Deity, the creator and motor of the universe, is thought solely as the Mind (Nus - ancient Greek philosophy) and other attributes practically has.

    In accordance with such theology, the idea of human immortality is transformed. Based on its scale of values, the 1st Logic only considers the mind worthy of eternity and accordingly this view simulates the picture of the afterlife. Designs like the "noosphere" theory of Charden-Vernadsky, according to which above the earth swirls a transparent shell, composed of ideal, cleared of all impurities, immortal human minds - a direct reflection of such modeling.

    It remains to be added that the 1st Logic in its desire to absolutize itself is by no means alone. This is a property of the First feature in general:

    1st Will sees in the Absolute an unconscious, blind willful beginning (Schopenhauer, Hartman, Kierkegaard, etc.), and eternity rewards only the human "spirit" will.

    1st Physics professes outright idolatry, i.e. deified matter in all its forms, and immortality is quite carousing, like the early Christian concept of the coming Resurrection in the flesh.

    1st Emotion identifies the Deity with the highest and brightest experience ("God is love" 1 Eo.4.8.) and only the "soul" that the heartfelt essence in itself leaves to live behind the coffin.

    By old age the first function is made even redundant:1st Emotion becomes even more vociferous, 1st Will is more tyrannical, 1st Physics - cuddlier, 1st Logic - dogmatic. And this happens because the destruction of the individual, produced by the inexorable time, under old age force a person to be even more reliable to strengthen in himself what before served as his main help.

    The first function is the support of personality, the foundation on which the bungalows of the human psyche oscillate by all winds. However, in this superpower and fortress of the First there is a hidden and dangerous flaw. It's not flexible. Therefore, the blows on the First are very painful and minor destruction of it, introduced by fast-flowing life (say, diseases and injuries for the 1st Physics), bring the person sometimes to madness and suicide.

    And the nature of the human, apparently, realizes, more precisely, "recognizes" the dangerous lack of flexibility in the First function, because, despite the self-confidence of the First, she usually does not hurry in a dubious situation to put ourselves to the test, so that we do not mean by test: fight or debate.

    Let's be completely sincere: The first function is our gift to ourselves. It is selfish, although the word "selfishness" is usually used only in relation to the 1st Physics. Therefore, if someone falls from the First, then, first, it always happens "from bounty", from the excess of the result obtained alone, and, secondly, not because of the inner need of the First, but under the pressure of the lower procession functions.

    Concluding on this the story of the First function, it is necessary to recognize that selfishness, monologuery, vulnerability, cruelty and rudeness of the First make it even the most significant and brightest, but not the best side of human nature.


    SECOND
    "If the first function is best compared to a hammer, then the Second with the river. But besides strength, it has qualities unknown to the First: breadth, wealth, naturalness and flexibility. The source of all these virtues lies in the fact that the Second force is matched with process, i.e. it is a force charged with constant dialogue, constant interaction. Returning to the comparison between the First and the Second, we can say that if the First is our gift to ourselves, the Second is our gift to others. Therefore, the second function is the best side of the person."
    SECOND FUNCTION

    The second function is THE NORMA. And like any norm, it is difficult to describe. Unlikely a person will use more than two words talking about his health if it is normal: paints, epithets, images are only when there is a need to list sores. So with the Second function, it is poorly described, and how good health, it does not feel.

    If the first function is best compared to a hammer, then the Second with the river. But besides strength, it has qualities unknown to the First: breadth, wealth, naturalness and flexibility. The source of all these virtues lies in the fact that the Second force is matched with process, i.e. it is a force charged with constant dialogue, constant interaction. Returning to the comparison between the First and the Second, we can say that if the First is our gift to ourselves, the Second is our gift to others. Therefore, the second function is the best side of the person.

    However, procession is not a monopoly of the Second. The real monopoly, or the main sign of it, is action, immaculately adequate situations, without excess and without poverty, the standard of behavior. Recalls the story of one film director about an actress who had to shoot in one day in twenty takes, and each time the tears in her eyes were twirled just when it was necessary, and they were as much as necessary. Only the 2nd Emotion can act like this.

    The second function is extremely rich in shades and has a huge range. In order not to go far, I will give an example of the same 2nd Emotion: one researcher calculated that Tolstoy described 85 shades of eye expression and 97 shades of smile. The ability to see and transmit such wealth is not just observational - it is a special psychological attitude of the individual.

    Another feature of the Second function, due to the process: the completeness of its implementation is possible only if there is a partner, an audience. This property is difficult to see, but one woman with the 2nd Emotion admitted to me that, although life circumstances forced to do so, she - alone - even cried somehow not in the hunt.

    The combination of strength and process of the Second Function gives it such an extraordinarily valuable quality as pity. Actually, pity is not monopoly ii, but one aspect of procession. The specificity of pity the Second lies precisely in the fact that she regrets from the point of view of strength, confidence and experience of the richly gifted side of human nature. Let's say there is nothing better for the sick, disabled, elderly, how to be under the care of the 2nd Physics. The relentlessness of her compassion, constant care, accuracy, speed and caution of movements are able to provide maximum comfort to any infirm person.

    Another characteristic feature of the Second function - it is fearless. Moreover, a person experiences a kind of pleasure, putting it to the test often in questionable and even notoriously uncomfortable situations. And this behavior is easy to explain: the second is not only strong, but also plastic, so the blows on it do not hurt, but only give direction to its further improvement. So, one of my classmates, being the owner of the 2nd Physics, was not lazy to go to the other end of the city with the sole purpose - to fight. He often went without knowing whether he would beat him, whether he was. The case, of course, was not without bruises and cones, but the benefits became obvious over time: he eventually became a dashing pilot, colonel of the Air Force.


    THIRD
    "If we compress what Jung said and add a little from ourselves, we can say that the essence of the Third Function is this: it is a function that we consider to be vulnerable, flawed, underdeveloped, in need of constant strengthening, self-development and protection."
    THIRD FEATURE

    "We were all some party, but we failed," Jules Renard said with a longing, saying without realizing that he intuitively groped the Third Function in himself.

    By its principles, the Third function is almost the same as the Second, it is also process. Even, so to speak, superprocession. However, in its external manifestations, the Third function is very different from the Second. The difference is due to the fact that the Third is not a force, but a weakness, our ulcer, a sore place of the human psyche.

    In my opinion, the term "complex" introduced into the use of the School of Psychiatrists, which was used by the School of Psychiatrists, which made attempts to describe the Third Function, was not very successful. Much more precisely the term "dynamic trauma" used by the wonderful psychiatrist Charcot, one of the first to feel that the human psyche is characterized by some innate flaw.

    Criticism of the term "complex", however, does not negate the important circumstance that there are a lot of exact features in the characterization of the Third function, which under the name of "complexes" gave Carl Gustav Jung....... experience shows that complexes always contain something like a conflict or at least are either the cause or the consequence. These are the so-called "sick dots" in French "betes noires", the British in this connection mention about "skeletons in the cupbord" (skeletons in the cupbord), which do not want to remember and even less want to be reminded of them by others, but which, often in the most unpleasant way, remind themselves. They always contain memories, desires, fears, responsibilities, necessity or thoughts from which it is impossible to get rid of, and therefore they constantly interfere and harm interfering in our conscious life.

    Obviously, complexes are a kind of inferiority in the broadest sense, and I should immediately note that complex or possession of a complex does not necessarily mean inferiority. It only means that there is something incompatible, unsymmilated, perhaps even some obstacle, but it is also an incentive to great aspirations and therefore, it is likely, even a new opportunity for success. Consequently, complexes are in this sense a direct center or a hub point of mental life, without them it is impossible to do without, because otherwise mental activity would come to a fraught situation of stagnation. But they also mean the unfulfilled in the individual, an area where something cannot be overcome or overpowered; i.e. without a doubt, this is a weak point in any sense of the word.

    This nature of the complex largely highlights the causes of its occurrence. Obviously, it manifests itself as a result of a collision of the requirement for adaptation and a special, unsuitable for this requirement of the property of the individual. So. complex becomes a diagnostically valuable symptom of individual disposition for us."

    If we compress what Jung said and add a little from ourselves, we can say that the essence of the Third Function is this: it is a function that we consider to be vulnerable, flawed, underdeveloped, in need of constant strengthening, self-development and protection. Hence all the specific features of the Third Function.

    The third is a doppelganger. As the entire order of functions is divided into Upper and Niz (as mentioned), so divided and split one Third function. The feeling of weakness is combined with a feeling of huge, but not realized potential. The third - chained Prometheus - titanium, which psychological chains make weak, defenseless, vulnerable.

    Vulnerability, heightened sensitivity - the main signs of the Third function. Strikes on the Third are extremely painful, and the scars from them remain almost for life

    As a rule, the period of complete defenselessness of the Third function and especially frequent blows on it falls on childhood. It is children who are often beaten, humiliated, insulted, scolded. And if in childhood the Third is not fenced, but, on the contrary, constantly hurt, then this circumstance to the extreme refines the already refined Third.

    Fortunately, strikes on the Third Feature are extremely rare, as it has a heightened sense of danger to prevent an attack, and it is difficult to catch it by surprise. For example, a person with 3rd Physics is extremely dangerously perceives the outside world, and therefore he has injuries only in exceptional cases (of course the words "peace", "trauma" have purely physical meaning).

    Waiting for a blow to the Third Function - the main nightmare: the 3rd Logic is afraid of accusations of incompetence, 3rd Physics - beating, 3rd Will - humiliation, 3rd Emotion - hysterics. However, this nightmare is rarely embodied, as the Third is prone to hyperbolization and usually greatly exaggerates the real danger. Returning to the comparison of the Third with the chained Prometheus, I will add that the defenselessness and vulnerability it is forced to see in each passing crow zevs eagle, sent to peck your liver.

    However, life is life, and sometimes (continue the metaphor) the eagle really arrives. Here willy-nilly have to do something. There are three way out of a situation in which the threat of a strike on the Third is real: either the most thorough preparation in the run-up to the conflict, or the transfer of the fight to another level and function, or flight. As an illustration of this thesis, let's give the story of the strained relations between President Reagan and the press. With the 3rd Logic, Reagan reduced the number of press conferences to a minimum; when he could not turn away from them, he agreed to talk to journalists only after lengthy rehearsals. This is the first way out. Despite the preparation, the president still felt at the press conference not very comfortable and therefore often separated from questions with jokes, anecdotes, jokes and instructive stories, i.e. tried to translate communication from the frightening of his logical sphere into a painless emotional. This is the second way out. Finally, the escape: Being taken by surprise by journalists, Reagan simply pretended to be deaf.

    The third, like no other function, is given to experience someone else's pain. To feel it even more acutely than it feels the object of empathy. Tolstoy, let's say, did not put the work of a scientist or a musician in a penny, but through the prism of his 3rd Physics could not look at every man working in the field without tears. Although the man himself did not necessarily experience the torments that Tolstoy attributed to him, and, in turn, he could look with compassion 3rd Logic at every reading person, etc., etc.

    Pity, compassion - those properties that are related to the Third function with the Second. However, there is a feeling unknown to the Second, but constantly concomitant with the Third, is envy. It is identical to the feeling of the sick in relation to the healthy. It combines the desire to rise to the object of envy and at the same time humiliate it. Here I will continue to illustrate the story of the Third Feature with examples from the life of Tolstoy (3rd Physics). Here's how the director Lev Sulerzhitsky described a joint walk with Tolstoy in Moscow: "Tolstoy from a distance noticed two kirasir. Shining in the sun with the copper armor, ringing spurs, they went toe, as if both fused, their faces also shone with complacency of strength and youth.

    Tolstoy began to denounce them: "What a majestic stupidity! Absolutely animals, which were trained with a stick..."

    But when the Kirasirs approached him, he stopped and, seeing them off with an affectionate look, said with admiration, "What are beautiful! The Romans are ancient, well, Levushka? Silish, beauty, oh, my God. How good it is when a person is beautiful as well..."

    I hope the reader drew attention to the polarity of the Fatov assessments, when it came to the layer of life, which Tolstoy himself with his 3rd Physics was vulnerable and which clearly in abundance (1st Physics) were endowed with counter kirasirs. It is typical of the Third Function.

    "Fig leaf reaction" - so you can call the first reaction in a situation where the Third function collides with the same function, standing above.

    Free, open, strong manifestation of what is hurt, annoying person, makes to look for some justification of his infirmity, actively deny the importance and effectiveness of this layer of life and behind this denial, as behind the shield, to hide a sense of own inferiority. This is how a fig leaf is born, with which a person usually goes all his life. The number of fig leaves corresponds to the number of Third functions: it is irony for the 3rd Emotion, skepticism for the 3rd Logic, bigotry for the 3rd Physics, ugliness and hypocrisy for the 3rd Will.

    However, the concealment of its sram under a fig leaf is far from a guarantee of peace. Vice versa. The more active the denial, the more indiscoverable the secret desire to realize oneself in this vulnerable sphere of life. Here it is enough to remember that monk Kiev-Pechersky laurel (3rd Physics), who, escaping from prodigal passion, buried himself in the ground. Thus, the struggle with the procession of his own Third brings almost to self-exhaustion.

    In this regard, it becomes clear why the Third Feature is not only rejected, but also passionately loved. It can be said that the Third Function is the main generator of love and the choice in marriage is more often determined by it. No wonder the great preacher of asceticism Tolstoy married a girl gifted with flesh in excess (1st Physics). And for the rest of her life she could not understand how the combination of monstrous sanctimonious "Kreutzer Sonata" with the mighty and relentless love fervor of her husband was explained. And that's what explains it: 3rd Physics - and that's it.

    Marriage is not the only means by which a person tries to unwind and realize his third function. There are chemicals for this, say alcohol. It is for the sake of the Third we drink alcohol in companies. I would like to emphasize - it is in companies, because the origins of drunkenness are diverse. Alcohol, drunk in the company, has that miraculous property that allows you to forget about its flaw, freely and easily implement the Third function.

    Hence the amazing metamorphosis that usually happens to drunks, metamorphoses similar to those that happened to a millionaire from the famous film Charlie Chaplin. Dry, low-key person (3rd Emotion) is made sensitive; Silent (3rd Logic) - chattering, misogynist (3rd Physics) - red tape, modest (3rd Will) - proud.

    Scissors in the behavior of the Third function under the influence of alcohol acquire sometimes curious, if not tragicomic coloring. Here is a characteristic quote from the letter to the newspaper: "Yura was tall, strong, handsome, he constantly carried me in his arms. And everything would be fine. if it weren't for his weirdness. He. seemed afraid to fall in love, afraid of love. However, once he had a drink, as he began to say gentle words, violently kissed (I had no intimacy with anyone before marriage) and in these moments I just went crazy. I loved him so much that I was looking for an excuse to drink, as long as it was mine, only mine. In a sober state Jura was different, I did not know how to dissolve him, to make him loose." The next day the problem comes back with the addition of a headache.

    Like the Second Function, the Third likes to put himself to the test. However, there are significant differences between the self-test of these two functions. First, the Third Function prefers to test itself in conditions that exclude direct combat. And secondly, it goes to the limit in these trials. For example, Tolstoy's sister told how he ran five miles behind the carriage at the age of 15, and when the carriage stopped, the young Tolstoy was breathing so much that his sister burst into tears. So only the Third, and in particular, the 3rd Physics can examine itself. Other Physicists would have behaved differently: the effective Physicists simply would not subject themselves to the tests (First by virtue of self-confidence, the Fourth in indifference), the 2nd Physics would run after the coach, but would run only until this competition is a pleasure.

    The test described above is typical of the Third Function, and makes it so unaware of the Third Natural Limit of its capabilities. Our internal picture of the state of the Third Function is purely subjective. And to find out whether there is an "ulcer" on the Third or it only seems to us, and if there is, what is its true size - it is necessary to examination the Third and examine at the limit of possibilities.

    If the third test is successfully passed, then comes the highest, unknown in other cases satisfaction. In general, successes, praise, awards for the Third Function are valued like no other and are the subject of inexhaustible pride of their owner. Thus, Napoleon, having the 3rd Logic, was most proud of his membership in the National Institute (Academy of Sciences) and even signed his orders on the army "Bonaparte, a member of the National Institute" and only after this title put all the others, for others, perhaps much more weighty.

    For the same reason, the Third, like no other function, is sensitive to flattery. It is impossible to move here; no matter how monstrous flattery on the Third, deep down a man absolutely does not believe it, after all shows a full willingness to drink and drink this poison, never getting fed up and not experiencing heartburn.


    FOURTH
    "In short, the fourth function is a slave without guile, a chameleon and a dependent with a large, but often dormant potential."
    FOURTH FEATURE

    It's hard to talk about the Fourth function in a wordy way. It is a "little thing" - a function that we ourselves attach little importance to. It does not follow from this that the Fourth is notoriously weak and unproductive. On the contrary, the world is full of good mathematicians with the 4th Logic and artists with the 4th Emotion. The main thing in it is again a subjective hierarchy of internal values, forcing something one in itself to put on the last fourth stage. And putting, and treat appropriately.

    On this attitude and to the Fourth function I want to insist, because the confusion between the quality of functioning and the position of function on the steps of the mental hierarchy - a common mistake in mental yoga. 4th Logic is not necessarily stupid, the 4th Emotion is not necessarily insensitive, etc. One woman with the 4th Will, when I once said about her "weak character", with a feeling she retorted: "This is not true. I'm not weak. I just feel better when I am led." God spare us by exploring low-cost functions, equating their position with quality. No mistake is more serious.

    Externally, the fourth function is hard to distinguish from the Second. They are related to freedom, naturalness and fearlessness of self-expression. For example, the 4th Logic is worth nothing to get involved in a catchy philosophical dispute, at ease demonstrating the uninhibitedness and paradox of thinking, and not even to be offended, like the 2nd Logic, on the expressed in the hearts of the "fool". However, in the external similarity of the action there is a deep difference in motives between the two of these functions: the 2nd Logic will not be offended by the "fool" because it will not believe, and the 4th Logic - because the assessments on this part of it are deeply indifferent to it. That's the trick.

    Based on the external similarity of the Second and Fourth functions, I see the need to enumerate the signs by which the identification of the Fourth can be considered unconditional.

    The main thing - the activity on the Fourth does not have an independent value, it is not a goal, and a means of subsistence. Therefore, if, say, someone with the 4th Logic is engaged in intellectual work, it follows only that he tries to use this function (regardless of success) as a tool by which the requests of other self-worthy higher functions are realized: ambition - by will, material interests - on Physics, etc.

    Secondly, the unreliability of what is mined and obtained by the Fourth; let us remember the 4th Logic of Tolstoy, who, for all his love of philosophization, doubted the existence of Japan Madagascar.

    Third, disabling the Fourth in crisis situations. The human psyche, generally distrustful of the Fourth as such, in crises disables it as a possible hindrance in choosing the right decision and transfers the internal energy to higher levels.

    Next - mirror. Interaction with the Fourth is always the same as an order made by a higher partner function. This circumstance, for example, makes the 4th Physics a good sexual partner, because, not having its own model of sexual behavior, it adequately and sensitively responds to all requests of the partner.

    Finally, the Fourth function is very dependent and easily overdoes itself to others standing above the steps of the hierarchy functions. So, the 4th Physics painlessly goes into content, the 4th Emotion is easily infected with other people's moods, the 4th Logic without dispute takes any, more or less plausible concepts, the 4th Will in advance agrees with the decisions made for it.

    A remarkable feature of the Fourth is that the true power of its man learns only in the moments of fullness of life. Translating the term "fullness of life" into the language of mental yoga, we can say that it is a state where the first three functions are adequate to themselves, i.e. there is a good result on the First and there are processes on the Second and Third. It is at such moments that the usually dormant Fourth Function gains strength, independence and depth of sound. Conversely, the blows to any of the first three functions completely turn off the Fourth.

    In short, the fourth function is a slave without guile, a chameleon and a dependent with a large, but often dormant potential.

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    @squark coming through with the Russian info The problem is when you feel you have weaknesses in multiple areas but aren't sure how to differentiate socionics weaknesses from 3rd attitude insecurity.

    More reading required.... *gulps tea*

    Edit: reminds self "it's not necessarily about quality/aptitude of the function that determines its place on the mental hierarchy" (taken from that section on the 4th position)

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    2L-3 are into arguing as long as it stays logical. But as soon as ppl emote, or they’re EIE (who are commonly 1E, that clashes with my 3E) then it’s just pointless. With 4F, I do things like pick out an outfit (for example) and quickly move on. I don’t savor the F stuff, but I view it in a positive way for both me and others.

    AP is about your attitude towards your abilities, not your actual cognitive abilities so it’s not related to socionics. There is a claim that there seems to be more of a correlation with enneagrams but so far, Rob is wrong and need to read Naranjo and Ichazo. My AP type is noted to being the “most argumentative type,”however he said VLEF is linked with enneagram 1, but 1 isn’t argumentative. I don’t even have 1 fix.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolita View Post
    but 1 isn’t argumentative.
    I might have to argue with that. (Kidding aside, it depends on the 1, but when you consider that a 1 is trying to reach perfection and feels like they need to correct the imperfect - yeah, you can get a lot of arguing going on)

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    I got typed as VELF AKHMATOVA, so that was cool.




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    Sources I like, idk if they've already been posted here and I'm not gonna check 5 pages.

    https://bestsocionics.com/psychosophy/functions/

    https://bestsocionics.com/psychosophy/

    https://osocionike.ru/psychosophy/




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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolita View Post
    There is a claim that there seems to be more of a correlation with enneagrams but so far, Rob is wrong and need to read Naranjo and Ichazo. My AP type is noted to being the “most argumentative type,”however he said VLEF is linked with enneagram 1, but 1 isn’t argumentative. I don’t even have 1 fix.
    Yeah, those enneagram correlations were throwing me for a loop. In his video on VELFs he said type One is extremely rare, but I think I'm both. However I'm also looking at LEFV for myself...a sudden weird shift.

    My ILE bestie is VLEF like yourself and she's enneagram 9. She can be very stubborn and will always privately have an opinion, but her Social Nine-ness keeps this from manifesting in a combative way. So I think you have to use discernment when you come across a person's opinion on how a type will manifest themselves.

    Btw is that actually your bike in your signature?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vex View Post
    Sources I like, idk if they've already been posted here and I'm not gonna check 5 pages.

    https://bestsocionics.com/psychosophy/functions/

    https://bestsocionics.com/psychosophy/

    https://osocionike.ru/psychosophy/
    Thanks, I hadn't discovered that last one.

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    These russian sources are better than the attitudinal psyche site. Looking at functions in isolation I can see both VFLE and FVLE working but in type descriptions I think VFLE edges out. I’ll give the 200q thing a try later. The attitudinal psyche page test gave me VFLE both times I did, old and updated test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I might have to argue with that. (Kidding aside, it depends on the 1, but when you consider that a 1 is trying to reach perfection and feels like they need to correct the imperfect - yeah, you can get a lot of arguing going on)
    LOL sure 1 can be argumentative but they are not argumentative by core. My dad is LSI 1 and he’s perfectionist but literally won’t argue unless his Ti is attacked. He’s rigid and angry, but not argumentative. VLEF argue due to their L being agitated because they seek out information and correct it (I can see that as 1-ish) but they’ll argue endlessly over logical contention and they do stick by their arguments, especially when others emote, they’ll dig their heels in and will bulldoze with more logic. I think VLEF is actually more like 5.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    Yeah, those enneagram correlations were throwing me for a loop. In his video on VELFs he said type One is extremely rare, but I think I'm both. However I'm also looking at LEFV for myself...a sudden weird shift.

    My ILE bestie is VLEF like yourself and she's enneagram 9. She can be very stubborn and will always privately have an opinion, but her Social Nine-ness keeps this from manifesting in a combative way. So I think you have to use discernment when you come across a person's opinion on how a type will manifest themselves.

    Btw is that actually your bike in your signature?
    The enneagram correlations are mostly wrong. It’s not based off enneagram theory to draw likeness, but more like it’s based off of whatever impressions the enneagrams are known for and I’ve interacted with Rob and some members of his team. They’re EIEs (Rob is likely EIE-N) and they operate based upon their impressions and the image politics of enneagrams but not actually examine enneagram to any depth. It’s just their spin on what they believe to be correlated with what.

    As for VLEF being “the most argumentative” type, that’s from Rob. Being argumentative doesn’t mean being aggressive, although that doesn’t stop others from viewing an argumentative person as aggressive. I don’t argue in an off-putting way. I argue in a matter of fact way and people who are higher on the E priority often would mistaken my points of contention as something E related when it’s actually L related. I’m a social 8 and I’m directly inclined to stand up and fight. That’s the “justice” of 8. However, even if your friend is 9 and VLEF, she would still be “argumentative” but just in an L way. Whether people see her as being argumentative, that’s another thing and probably more related to her being a 9 vs me being an 8. If she’s VLEF, then we both have the same attitudes and motivations for arguing and would be “argumentative.”

    Yes, it’s one of my bikes and currently my only fixie as I’ve sold the one I built. The maker is an Fi bike mechanic. She makes unique color combos and don’t repeat old designs. She mainly does custom color orders. It’s definitely too loud looking but it rides like a dream.


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    Last edited by Lolita; 03-20-2021 at 02:34 PM.

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    200 questions test gave inconclusive results, did it twice with minor changes between some answers but both indicate 4E and basically three possible types. First run had strongest coefficients for FVLE, LVFE, VFLE. Second run had VFLE, FVLE, LVFE. Averaging the coefficients from both runs results in FVLE edging out very slightly (0,0025 or 0,11%) over VFLE with LVFE clearly losing. Both of the shorter psychosophy tests suggested VFLE, the other one tied points with FVLE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chin Diaper 007 View Post
    Nice website, makes me think I'm ELVF.

    What's the point of psychosophy? Looks like a mix of MBTI and astrology. I know i know socionics doesn't look that legit either on first impressions.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Nice website, makes me think I'm ELVF.

    What's the point of psychosophy? Looks like a mix of MBTI and astrology. I know i know socionics doesn't look that legit either on first impressions.....
    I just think of it as simplified behavioral mechanics you execute daily and naturally. It is a lot like balance. Regarding type relations here it seems bit far fetched at times. You kind of just share attitudes which can be important at first encounter. So I would not read too much into it but take it from practical perspective.
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    i've gone through many of the russian sites and ELVF is still the best fit. everything on this page regarding 4F is true of me for the most part. the only issues are that if i could get the energy, i wouldn't live in trash and i feel psychologically broken in this area. and although it is true that appearance to me is more about emotional self-expression/identity expression, i am pained by body image matters off and on. i think the first emotion third will fits me better than the first emotion third physics. although obviously i'm not some great intellectual like hans christian andersen lol i think the descriptions for the andersen fit well enough and better than any of the other types.

    it seems dumas came up with this system? and not to um shit on my own kind, but it does indeed seem this system is a terrible Ti HA production. it is flawed to its bare bones.

    i propose just creatively giving oneself 5 slots to fill lol. i can be EELVF, in which only the first two slots are actual strengths and the L is a bit more like 3L in that it's still weak logic but it's also a bit like 2L in that it's secure. giving it an extra slot arbitrarily defined however one likes gives the system more... breathing room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Nice website, makes me think I'm ELVF.

    What's the point of psychosophy? Looks like a mix of MBTI and astrology. I know i know socionics doesn't look that legit either on first impressions.....
    In a way it reminds me of the instincts (sexual, social, self preservation), although it's not so much about where your energy goes as it is about your attitude toward each area of life.

    This site describes it as a supplement to socionics for people who feel like their sociotype doesn't completely describe them, or they have elements in their nature that contradict their sociotype, or duality doesn't seem to be as helpful as it's made out to be: https://osocionike.ru/psychosophy/61...cheloveka.html

    Personally I'm still sorting out my type, but it adds another layer that helps me see why I'm really drawn to certain people even if they're not the best socionic match for me. And vice versa, why members of my own quadra have been a bad fit in the long run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolita View Post
    As for VLEF being “the most argumentative” type, that’s from Rob. Being argumentative doesn’t mean being aggressive, although that doesn’t stop others from viewing an argumentative person as aggressive. I don’t argue in an off-putting way. I argue in a matter of fact way and people who are higher on the E priority often would mistaken my points of contention as something E related when it’s actually L related. I’m a social 8 and I’m directly inclined to stand up and fight. That’s the “justice” of 8. However, even if your friend is 9 and VLEF, she would still be “argumentative” but just in an L way. Whether people see her as being argumentative, that’s another thing and probably more related to her being a 9 vs me being an 8. If she’s VLEF, then we both have the same attitudes and motivations for arguing and would be “argumentative.”
    I do wonder if she's actually VLEF, but can't think what else would fit better. Wouldn't describe her as argumentative because she's good at gauging when someone will be able to receive what she says or not, so often she just stops arguing if she knows they aren't really interested in listening. However yeah, she doesn't yield logical points easily at all.

    I can see her fighting her natural impulse to respond to someone's point and the 9 impulse to keep the peace.

    Yes, it’s one of my bikes and currently my only fixie as I’ve sold the one I built. The maker is an Fi bike mechanic. She makes unique color combos and don’t repeat old designs. She mainly does custom color orders. It’s definitely too loud looking but it rides like a dream.
    The saturated colors are
    Last edited by Emily; 03-20-2021 at 07:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    i've gone through many of the russian sites and ELVF is still the best fit. everything on this page regarding 4F is true of me for the most part. the only issues are that if i could get the energy, i wouldn't live in trash and i feel psychologically broken in this area. and although it is true that appearance to me is more about emotional self-expression/identity expression, i am pained by body image matters off and on. i think the first emotion third will fits me better than the first emotion third physics. although obviously i'm not some great intellectual like hans christian andersen lol i think the descriptions for the andersen fit well enough and better than any of the other types.
    The third spot is tricky depending what's going on in life or how I'm doing psychologically overall. When I'm not doing well I get hangups in both Physics and Logic, so would almost tie those for 3rd.

    i propose just creatively giving oneself 5 slots to fill lol. i can be EELVF, in which only the first two slots are actual strengths and the L is a bit more like 3L in that it's still weak logic but it's also a bit like 2L in that it's secure. giving it an extra slot arbitrarily defined however one likes gives the system more... breathing room.
    I like it, since currently there's no option for "what if I have a bad attitude towards multiple things?" lol

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    I get VLEF, ya know, the arguing one.
    It's the best fit I guess, that's what I thought when reading descriptions but I don't think it's very good.
    I really hate arguing with people because what's the point? It's all written somewhere already anyway, if one just bothers to google it: the pros, the cons, the part that can go both sides, the part that says the argument is a waste of perfectly good time and energy, the points we are missing with the argument itself...

    I do argue with myself on a daily basis tho.

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