jawncakes' (Redditor's) "How to Help an ENTJ Relax"

[nanashi]

An EIE asked Reddit how to support an LIE friend who has flipped areas of confidence:

"How to help an ENTJ relax?
Hi all,

I'm an ENFJ who recently met an ENTJ and we hit it off like fireworks right from the start. We love each other & have so much fun and laughter and deep times together.

Somehow I've always ended up meeting lots of people who I just click with naturally but I think it came as a surprise to her, and I think even now sometimes she's surprised at how open she naturally tends to be with me. I know emotions are not yet forte and she'd rather forget about them than having to deal with 'em and I'm always like FEEL FEEL FEEL. She's also helped me be less feely though, and try to be more objective and thinky in certain situations.

Now we're very similar in a lot of ways and I think we try to help each other out in analysing situations and giving each other different perspectives. I've noticed though that she cares a lot about people and how she might be perceived - it worries her and she analyzes things a lot. I get like that too sometimes but I think she's getting way too riled up about it.

My question is, how do I help her relax and let go? Not care as much? I don't want to tell her to not care, because I know in certain aspects I care too much about what people think, but weirdly don't care about them at all in other ways or how I live my life / come across. So I don't want to just tell her to relax, because I know from personal experience that I can't just do that. There's not a switch.

How do I give her advice that will actually work for her but not come across as offensive? She's very confident but also her over-analysis of a lot of social situations makes me think maybe she's not very secure in that sphere. And I don't want to say the wrong thing and have her overthink what I say and worry even more.

We're both 27 and work together in a kind of people oriented field. She's very direct and assertive (I love her for this) but I think some people find that difficult to digest (but fuck 'em!). In contrast, I'm very people focused, that's where my strengths lie and I've caught her sometimes make comments about how I'm now in the clique and people have accepted me in the social circle as a joke - but I feel maybe she's feeling insecure about it too. I really don't want her to feel like anything is wrong, I think people really like and respect her. She just needs to stop caring, relax and do it her own way.

I want to help her but don't want her to think she needs to be like anyone else, least of all like me, to be liked. Would appreciate any suggestions!"

I could have written that exact response from jawncakes. That is where it's at:

"3 years ago
Well obviously YMMV- but I think this is the first time I've heard about another female ENTJ so I'll give it a shot. I've struggled with these exact same issues a lot in my life, and I've also managed to attract myself some helpful Feeling types who haven't always been sure of how to care for me or help me. Now, this isn't a miracle cure, because I still frequently lie awake til 3AM ruminating about how I could have acted better, etc. But here are some things I've had done for me that seem to come best from someone like you:

1. Don't even try to "convince" her of anything. If ENTJs have a skill, it's arguing- even against themselves. You can't ever win that way. Maybe just hold her. Even if she seems too high strung for that. People have told me I don't express body language that welcomes touch. But sometimes it's the only thing that can help, and I don't even think of it as a strategy, cause I'm so caught up in my head. Even if you're just friends. Say, hey we're gonna try something weird but someone on the internet told me it might work (lol). Put on a TV show you enjoy and watch it while holding her, maybe petting her hair or something soothing. Idk. It's really helped me calm the fuck down, even coming from friends.

2. Say that you love being around her, and that you think she's great. It's statiscally impossible that no one else likes her. Say that. Repeat that. It's freaking true. It's a fact.

3. This is a bit more manipulative so it may not appeal to YOU, but maybe bring it up with her anyway. It has helped me feel a shitton more confident with people. I keep a file on my phone with the MBTI types of people I know in it. And their hogwarts houses. And any other silly personality "typing" factoid that happens to come up randomly through knowing people. I find smooth ways to bring it up, see if people have taken either the MBTI or the pottermore sorting quiz. Over time, I've accumulated a LOT of information. And.... well... when I'm having trouble knowing how to deal with someone, I go look at their types. I think about what that means in relationship to me based on my type. If it's a group of people, sometimes I actually draw out a chart of our potential interaction conflicts/complements/harmonies. IT'S SO HELPFUL. For work, for friends, for relationships.... it's changed my life completely. And then there's nothing to waste my time ruminating about, cause I've already put down all the problems and figured out the concrete solution. A fact-based, logical workaround to hazy social/emotional situations.

Anyway. Best of luck! I hope some of this helps. Really cool to hear about another woman going through the stuff I've been going through all my life."

https://www.reddit.com/r/entj/commen...an_entj_relax/

[spacious]

I'm not really on reddit, and I mean in this in the general sense, but I... want to be jawncakes' friend.

Where my ENTJ lady friends at? One woman I met in grad school a few years ago maay've been an ENTJ. We REALLY hit it off and I remember she was talkin' about wanting to pursue some personal growth as an actual thing and I was thinking honey, that's what my entire life is about. Especially more so at the time, when I was especially self-improvement-obsessed.

After our first hangout things kept falling through on both of our ends for the next one. And the connection faded. Too bad. Ime in this PhD program it takes a LOT of momentum and initiative to build and maintain a close friendship with someone from outside your department, that you're not naturally going to see a lot of. Which is partly why my ILI cohort-mate are SOO tight.

I'm quite sure she's the first ILI I've ever become close friends with. Can't think of any ILI or LIE friends in my past or my childhood--but the LIE presence in my immediate family is strong (dad + brother are LIE).

@nanashi, thanks for sharing this, it really made an impression on me.

[spacious]

OOOH! Writing this post then reminded me of a dream I had the other night in which I found out that some women in the year above me in HS were / are ENTJs. Finding out as an adult had me like ‘ohh that makes sense and that’s so coool and THEYRE so cool and they KNOW things. Wow’

<3

[Adam Strange]

OOOH! Writing this post then reminded me of a dream I had the other night in which I found out that some women in the year above me in HS were / are ENTJs. Finding out as an adult had me like ‘ohh that makes sense and that’s so coool and THEYRE so cool and they KNOW things. Wow’

<3

They might know some things, but you guys feel things.

[serenaeva]

OOOH! Writing this post then reminded me of a dream I had the other night in which I found out that some women in the year above me in HS were / are ENTJs. Finding out as an adult had me like ‘ohh that makes sense and that’s so coool and THEYRE so cool and they KNOW things. Wow’

<3

Don't you know things?

[nanashi]

Don't you know things?

Maybe Space means it excites her/him that someone knows things she/he would like to know, rather than that they see themself as knowing nothing.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Jesus Christ but no way. I know some people think I am going to be a huge asshole for this post but I am definitely NOT going to do those things. We're just going to have to understand we'll probably never like each other.

"1. Don't even try to "convince" her of anything. If ENTJs have a skill, it's arguing- even against themselves. You can't ever win that way. Maybe just hold her. Even if she seems too high strung for that. People have told me I don't express body language that welcomes touch. But sometimes it's the only thing that can help, and I don't even think of it as a strategy, cause I'm so caught up in my head. Even if you're just friends. Say, hey we're gonna try something weird but someone on the internet told me it might work (lol). Put on a TV show you enjoy and watch it while holding her, maybe petting her hair or something soothing. Idk. It's really helped me calm the fuck down, even coming from friends."

"Stop trying to convince her of anything." That works both ways. I think you're delta NF but stop trying to convince me and Grendel and others of your inane Te and Ne walls of texts and rants and maybe we'll do the same thing to you. I don't need the lesson like you think I need and it comes across as dumb. I'm also not going to 'hold you' when I think you're being condescending and narcissistic and socially retarded and refusing to read between the lines in a weird attempt at appealing to authority and SJW Karen-isms. How disgusting. If you want to ease your own anxieties, there are meditation videos on Youtube for that?

"2. Say that you love being around her, and that you think she's great. It's statiscally impossible that no one else likes her. Say that. Repeat that. It's freaking true. It's a fact."

lol /Refuses to be Gaslighted by this. I'm not going to say things I don't think are true just to appeal to somebody else's narcissism sorry. Unless maybe I was FORCED to for my own self-benefit and you had some sort of real world power over me but that doesn't apply here. I love my Fe but I can't be fake like that just to make somebody else feel better, especially not online where it doesn't feel 'real' enough to do that. You don't have to try and be nice to me either- but again the 'convincing thing' works both ways.

"3. This is a bit more manipulative so it may not appeal to YOU, but maybe bring it up with her anyway. It has helped me feel a shitton more confident with people. I keep a file on my phone with the MBTI types of people I know in it. And their hogwarts houses. And any other silly personality "typing" factoid that happens to come up randomly through knowing people. I find smooth ways to bring it up, see if people have taken either the MBTI or the pottermore sorting quiz. Over time, I've accumulated a LOT of information. And.... well... when I'm having trouble knowing how to deal with someone, I go look at their types. I think about what that means in relationship to me based on my type. If it's a group of people, sometimes I actually draw out a chart of our potential interaction conflicts/complements/harmonies. IT'S SO HELPFUL. For work, for friends, for relationships.... it's changed my life completely. And then there's nothing to waste my time ruminating about, cause I've already put down all the problems and figured out the concrete solution. A fact-based, logical workaround to hazy social/emotional situations."

Sounds too silly and cutsey and Delta NF slumber party ish. I don't think I want to do this. Yeah, you definitely need an EII or IEE and not an IEI/EIE. Or it's just a NTR thing.

But don't get insecure or analyze urself too much. I don't think NFs or high Fe/Fi ppl are some masters at social relationships either that's kind of stupid- everybody is socially retarded in a way. I don't think you're a bad person or anything, and I definitely don't think you 'kick puppies' I think it's more the other way around. ((that's why I don't appreciate ppl projecting things that you are actually doing as if I'm doing them.)) Beta and Delta sensitivities are often too opposing. Your inner puppy feels kicked so you kinda act the way you do sometimes to overcompensate. I just think we're highly incompatible. I'm too rebellious and independent for your Te and Ne needs. I think I've known quite a few people in my life that were like you and we didn't get along that well either.

I would honestly and respectfully tell you to try & get a Delta or Alpha to nurse your Fi wounds and stop trying to control Betas to do what you want.

[nanashi]

Jesus Christ but no way. I know some people think I am going to be a huge asshole for this post but I am definitely NOT going to do those things. We're just going to have to understand we'll probably never like each other.

"1. Don't even try to "convince" her of anything. If ENTJs have a skill, it's arguing- even against themselves. You can't ever win that way. Maybe just hold her. Even if she seems too high strung for that. People have told me I don't express body language that welcomes touch. But sometimes it's the only thing that can help, and I don't even think of it as a strategy, cause I'm so caught up in my head. Even if you're just friends. Say, hey we're gonna try something weird but someone on the internet told me it might work (lol). Put on a TV show you enjoy and watch it while holding her, maybe petting her hair or something soothing. Idk. It's really helped me calm the fuck down, even coming from friends."

"Stop trying to convince her of anything." That works both ways. I think you're delta NF but stop trying to convince me and Grendel and others of your inane Te and Ne walls of texts and rants and maybe we'll do the same thing to you. I don't need the lesson like you think I need and it comes across as dumb. I'm also not going to 'hold you' when I think you're being condescending and narcissistic and socially retarded and refusing to read between the lines in a weird attempt at appealing to authority and SJW Karen-isms. How disgusting. If you want to ease your own anxieties, there are meditation videos on Youtube for that?

"2. Say that you love being around her, and that you think she's great. It's statiscally impossible that no one else likes her. Say that. Repeat that. It's freaking true. It's a fact."

lol /Refuses to be Gaslighted by this. I'm not going to say things I don't think are true just to appeal to somebody else's narcissism sorry. Unless maybe I was FORCED to for my own self-benefit and you had some sort of real world power over me but that doesn't apply here. I love my Fe but I can't be fake like that just to make somebody else feel better, especially not online where it doesn't feel 'real' enough to do that. You don't have to try and be nice to me either- but again the 'convincing thing' works both ways.

"3. This is a bit more manipulative so it may not appeal to YOU, but maybe bring it up with her anyway. It has helped me feel a shitton more confident with people. I keep a file on my phone with the MBTI types of people I know in it. And their hogwarts houses. And any other silly personality "typing" factoid that happens to come up randomly through knowing people. I find smooth ways to bring it up, see if people have taken either the MBTI or the pottermore sorting quiz. Over time, I've accumulated a LOT of information. And.... well... when I'm having trouble knowing how to deal with someone, I go look at their types. I think about what that means in relationship to me based on my type. If it's a group of people, sometimes I actually draw out a chart of our potential interaction conflicts/complements/harmonies. IT'S SO HELPFUL. For work, for friends, for relationships.... it's changed my life completely. And then there's nothing to waste my time ruminating about, cause I've already put down all the problems and figured out the concrete solution. A fact-based, logical workaround to hazy social/emotional situations."

Sounds too silly and cutsey and Delta NF slumber party ish. I don't think I want to do this. Yeah, you definitely need an EII or IEE and not an IEI/EIE. Or it's just a NTR thing.

But don't get insecure or analyze urself too much. I don't think NFs or high Fe/Fi ppl are some masters at social relationships either that's kind of stupid- everybody is socially retarded in a way. I don't think you're a bad person or anything, and I definitely don't think you 'kick puppies' I think it's more the other way around. ((that's why I don't appreciate ppl projecting things that you are actually doing as if I'm doing them.)) Beta and Delta sensitivities are often too opposing. Your inner puppy feels kicked so you kinda act the way you do sometimes to overcompensate. I just think we're highly incompatible. I'm too rebellious and independent for your Te and Ne needs. I think I've known quite a few people in my life that were like you and we didn't get along that well either.

I would honestly and respectfully tell you to try & get a Delta or Alpha to nurse your Fi wounds and stop trying to control Betas to do what you want.

Whoa. BandD, this was not directed at you.


I haven't even read your whole comment, but this was not "TO" you

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Of course I know that but still the suggestions sounded so ridiculous to me that I had to comment.

It reminded me of Trump's narcissism tbh kinda lol. "Tell me how awesome I am even though I'm farting in your face like an asshole!" *narc smile* He does it in a Fe way of course but I still think you can do this sorta thing to people in a Te way.

It is way beyond you or me or the ENTj thing even. I am just kinda repulsed at the suggestion I or anybody else should 'just hold' and coddle somebody's narcisissm and antisocial behavior 'It's going to be my way or the high way whether you like it or not!' type of douchebaggery. It kinda just disgusted me so much I had to assertively say 'no' I'm not going to do that but if you read my post to the end I also recognized that if that's what people think they need they can gladly find somebody else to do it , that's all. lol.

[nanashi]

This is an EIE and LIE who are strangers to each other talking to each others. I am not either of those redditors.

I thought it was a unique and useful addition to the forum's Gamma section.

I not only identified with it but I looked it up because I have been working on how I manage my stress again.

It makes no sense how you dissected it:

You answered LIE jawncakes' suggestions for what helps them as though it was both me ...and also as though what helps them was too Delta NF. jawncakes is LIE.

Maybe you wrote it a little tipsy or when you were tired.



A LIE woman and an ILE man both told you you were expressing sexist ideas, and now you have decided the LIE woman has to be IEE because only IEE have human emotion. I would love being IEE. That I am LIE just is. I didn't choose it.

[nanashi]

Of course I know that but still the suggestions sounded so ridiculous to me that I had to comment.

It reminded me of Trump's narcissism tbh kinda lol. "Tell me how awesome I am even though I'm farting in your face like an asshole!" *narc smile* He does it in a Fe way of course but I still think you can do this sorta thing to people in a Te way.



It is way beyond you or me or the ENTj thing even. I am just kinda repulsed at the suggestion I or anybody else should 'just hold' and coddle somebody's narcisissm and antisocial behavior 'It's going to be my way or the high way whether you like it or not!' type of douchebaggery. It kinda just disgusted me so much I had to assertively say 'no' I'm not going to do that but if you read my post to the end I also recognized that if that's what people think they need they can gladly find somebody else to do it , that's all. lol.

The LIE wasn't abusing anyone, BandD. The EIE SOUGHT OUGHT HOW TO BETTER SUPPORT THEIR FRIEND WHO IS TOO HARD ON HERSELF AND ENTJ. the ENTJ was able to argue away vapid platitudes, and she's able to argue against her own perfection, etc. She needs something that is inarguable. that's the point. It's not saying she's a gaslighting, combative abuser. That's not anywhere in the post. The post is saying she's like a lawyer in her own mind arguing against being too easy on herself.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It's not so much gaslighting to be a "combative abuser" as it is gaslighting in an attempt to reach a one-sided peaceful solution that doesn't improve relations as much as makes the "ENTj" feel temporarly cajoled - until their next outbreak. Why in the world would I hold somebody that I don't really love in a weird way? Or tell them everything is going to be okay when they don't mean much to me? Or blanket all conflict with silly fluffy remarks about Harry Potter houses? It reminds me of a teacher or nanny asking people to 'hug it out' which is a weird invasion of boundaries to me.

I never thought anybody was being 'abused' your brain always goes to this weird abuse/victim dichotomy that's bizarre to me. Wanting adoration in the narcissistic sense is a lot different to me than 'abuse.' Can't we just have a discussion like two grown ups without thinking there is an abuser and victim. It kinda makes me laugh in a sense that you always think there is this puppy being kicked when there isn't. I don't know weeeird.

[nanashi]

It's not so much gaslighting to be a "combative abuser" as it is gaslighting in an attempt to reach a one-sided peaceful solution that doesn't improve relations as much as makes the "ENTj" feel temporarly cajoled - until their next outbreak. Why in the world would I hold somebody that I don't really love in a weird way? Or tell them everything is going to be okay when they don't mean much to me? Or blanket all conflict with silly fluffy remarks about Harry Potter houses? It reminds me of a teacher or nanny asking people to 'hug it out' which is a weird invasion of boundaries to me.

I never thought anybody was being 'abused' your brain always goes to this weird abuse/victim dichotomy that's bizarre to me. Wanting adoration in the narcissistic sense is a lot different to me than 'abuse.' Can't we just have a discussion like two grown ups without thinking there is an abuser and victim. It kinda makes me laugh in a sense that you always think there is this puppy being kicked when there isn't. I don't know weeeird.

AGAIN, this is about the EIE's irl LIE friend on reddit. I didn't post this as a direct message to you to try to reach you, a person I barely know.\

You're again bringing up 'improving relations'...that wasn't the issue for the EIE. That's something you're bringing in from left field, and when someone brings in words and phrases like 'narcissicism' 'improve relations' 'why should I(!!!???)', I really am left trying to parse what you're talking about. That you are dealing with trauma and conflating our interactions with the post on an EIE and LIE from reddit talking about how to support LIE friends and how LIE struggle was the easiest conclusion

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I didn't post this as a direct message to you to try to reach you, a person I barely know.

Of course you didn't but you post it on the public message board anybody can respond the way they want. Deal with it. You wanted to tell people the way to treat a type in an obnoxiously narcissistic way and I merely pointed out the ways it wouldn't work out. That "EIE" if they were ever that type - sounded like a weak feeble minded sycophant to me. I'm not going to be in some one-sided relationship with a Fi valuer where I'm doing nothing but being some weird empathetic holograph to their weird narcissitic needs. Fuck that shit, I'm allowed to assertively defend myself against it.

I realize it's probably very asshole-ish to some Fi valuers though if they actually want some illusionary 'empathy' to their narcissistic needs. LOL.

Not being in a sycophant relationship is healthy for any type, I believe. But maybe that's my Fe valuing bias. If you think sychophant relationships are somehow beneficial we'll just have to disagree.

Well that's all I have to say I made my point. I would say though it made me realize how much I like Fe better than Fi so thank you. There are no "traumas" or victims here for the 175027th time- what I can't get through your thick little Te valuing skull. Please stop projecting your own traumas onto me if you can't handle it maybe?