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Thread: The "Islamic terrorist" fallacy and apologetics

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    but let's go back to the main topic. what is the difference between a man shooting people in the name of Allah and a teenager shooting his classmates because his girlfriend broke up with him?

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    what's the difference between gang murders, and terrorism? should we start questioning black culture too?

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    what's the difference between alcohol related deaths, and terrorism? should we ban alcohol?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
    there is no use arguing with fools. you present them all the evidence and yet they insist, because they hate the truth. "and whoever Allah guides, none can lead astray, and whoever Allah allows to be led astray, none can guide." i strongly suspect subteigh is from a russian troll farm. he strongly resembles one of those fake accounts. also i believe islamqa put up a fatwa saying not to bother arguing with people, because of the verse about leaving from a discussion of kufr.
    The verse you just quoted says that Allah is to blame, not me.

    I'm not aware of you presenting any evidence relating to Islamic ideology.

    Can you define the properties of this "Allah", if you are interested in revealing the truth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
    but let's go back to the main topic. what is the difference between a man shooting people in the name of Allah and a teenager shooting his classmates because his girlfriend broke up with him?
    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    For an act to be terrorism, it must involve a conspiracy to commit violence or a threat of violence (i.e. a group effort, a group ideology).
    Wiktionary definitions of terrorism also say:

    terrorism (usually uncountable, plural terrorisms)
    English Wikipedia has an article on:
    terrorism

    1.The deliberate commission of an act of violence to create public fear through the suffering of the victims in the furtherance of a political or social agenda.
    2. The use of unlawful violence against people or property to achieve political objectives.
    3. A form of psychological manipulation through warfare to the purpose of political or religious gains, by means of deliberately creating a climate of fear amongst the inhabitants of a specific geographical region.
    For terrorist:

    terrorist (plural terrorists)

    1. A person, group, or organization that uses violent action, or the threat of violent action, to further political goals.

    2. An agent or partisan of the revolutionary tribunal during the Reign of Terror in France.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
    what's the difference between alcohol related deaths, and terrorism? should we ban alcohol?
    Alcohol-related deaths are related to alcohol, whereas terrorism is a conspiracy to commit violence or a threat of violence (i.e. a group effort, a group ideology).

    If we were to ban alcohol, we'd lose a highly useful chemical, and would even have to ban many foods, including fruit. The Quran itself does not ban alcohol or terrorism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
    what's the difference between gang murders, and terrorism? should we start questioning black culture too?
    Self-described Muslims in Africa kill more black Africans each month on average than the total number of Palestinians killed in the Arab–Israeli conflict over the last 73 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Alcohol-related deaths are related to alcohol, whereas terrorism is a conspiracy to commit violence or a threat of violence (i.e. a group effort, a group ideology).

    If we were to ban alcohol, we'd lose a highly useful chemical, and would even have to ban many foods, including fruit. The Quran itself does not ban alcohol or terrorism.
    the quran bans terrorism take a listen to the whole thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3X...&feature=share

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    the quran banned alcohol in stages, first no drunkenness, then no drinking before prayer, then none at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Alcohol-related deaths are related to alcohol, whereas terrorism is a conspiracy to commit violence or a threat of violence (i.e. a group effort, a group ideology).

    If we were to ban alcohol, we'd lose a highly useful chemical, and would even have to ban many foods, including fruit. The Quran itself does not ban alcohol or terrorism.
    how many people have been killed the name of america's wars? after 9/11 the taleban offered to try osama bin laden in their courts but bush went ahead with the invasion killing 15,000 afghan civilians in the carpet bombing. what about the bombing of yemen? the bombing of pakistan? the support for egypt's coup against morsi? the iraq war which killed millions? the support for israel's war in lebanon? the support for the first gulf war? the occupation of kashmir and palestine? the support for the shah of iran against the democratically elected government of iran? the support for authoritarian governments across the muslim world like in central asia?

  11. #91

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    more people die in america from white nationalist murders than islamic murders, same in europe

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    now i want you to answer me honestly @Subteigh are you from a russian troll farm? or are you a russian bot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
    how many people have been killed the name of america's wars? after 9/11 the taleban offered to try osama bin laden in their courts but bush went ahead with the invasion killing 15,000 afghan civilians in the carpet bombing. what about the bombing of yemen? the bombing of pakistan? the support for egypt's coup against morsi? the iraq war which killed millions? the support for israel's war in lebanon? the support for the first gulf war? the occupation of kashmir and palestine? the support for the shah of iran against the democratically elected government of iran? the support for authoritarian governments across the muslim world like in central asia?
    I have no idea. It depends on what you mean by "America's wars", and "in the name of".

    Most of the people killed in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars were not killed by Americans for example.

    I do think it is no good supporting authoritarian governments, although it's not clear you agree as you have already spoken in favour of Muslim theocracies in another thread. Also, are you in favour of democracy or not?

    Why is it legitimate for Muslims to occupy countries but not non-Muslims?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
    more people die in america from white nationalist murders than islamic murders, same in europe
    Do you have data on the number of white nationalist fundamentalists compared to the number of Muslim fundamentalists?

    Worldwide, Muslim fundamentalists are killing more people than white nationalist fundamentalists.

    Even one death by a Muslim inspired by the fundamentalism of Islamic dogma would be one death too many. Resorting to "What about...?" does not help your case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
    more people die in america from white nationalist murders than islamic murders, same in europe
    Anti-fascists linked to zero murders in the US in 25 years

    Donald Trump has made warnings about the threat of antifa and “far-left fascism” a central part of his re-election campaign. But in reality leftwing attacks have left far fewer people dead than violence by rightwing extremists, new research indicates, and antifa activists have not been linked to a single murder in decades.

    A new database of nearly 900 politically motivated attacks and plots in the United States since 1994 includes just one attack staged by an anti-fascist that led to fatalities. In that case, the single person killed was the perpetrator.

    Over the same time period, American white supremacists and other rightwing extremists have carried out attacks that left at least 329 victims dead, according to the database.

    More broadly, the database lists 21 victims killed in leftwing attacks since 2010 , and 117 victims of rightwing attacks in that same period – nearly six times as much. Attacks inspired by the Islamic State and similar jihadist groups, in contrast, killed 95 people since 2010, slightly fewer than rightwing extremists, according to the data set. More than half of these victims died in a a single attack on a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, in 2016.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...eftwing-antifa

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    @Misfit you should stop insulting me rather than addressing my beliefs and the points I'm making.

    For that matter, you should stop insulting yourself by calling yourself a Misfit.
    I accept that muslims who committ acts of terrorism may be inspired by their false interpretation of islam. But I refuse to acknowledge the lie that islam condones terrorism. The violence described in the Quran describes defensive warfare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I have no idea. It depends on what you mean by "America's wars", and "in the name of".

    Most of the people killed in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars were not killed by Americans for example.

    I do think it is no good supporting authoritarian governments, although it's not clear you agree as you have already spoken in favour of Muslim theocracies in another thread. Also, are you in favour of democracy or not?

    Why is it legitimate for Muslims to occupy countries but not non-Muslims?
    It's not ok for anyone to occupy anyone else's sovereign territory. But islam came about during the age of empires. My first statement applies to today. The latter was "pre emptive self defense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    @Misfit you should stop insulting me rather than addressing my beliefs and the points I'm making.

    For that matter, you should stop insulting yourself by calling yourself a Misfit.
    Also you still fail to acknowledge the point of this thread what is the difference between Columbine and 9/11? None except motive

  21. #101

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    We muslims dont owe you an explanation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
    I accept that muslims who committ acts of terrorism may be inspired by their false interpretation of islam. But I refuse to acknowledge the lie that islam condones terrorism. The violence described in the Quran describes defensive warfare.
    The Quran speaks favourably of terrorism against people simply for not believing in Islam:
    'We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allah, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire and how evil is the abode of the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers).' - (3:151)

    '(Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes." This is because they defied and disobeyed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.' (8:12-13)

    It also explicitly tells Muslims to go out of their way to wage war - very much not defensive warfare:

    "Those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Prophet Muhammad ], and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah (Islamic Monotheism), He will render their deeds vain. But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad , for it is the truth from their Lord, He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state. That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does Allah set forth their parables for mankind. So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others." (47:1-4)

    "Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." - (9:5)

    "Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (9:29)

    "March forth, whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), strive hard with your wealth and your lives in the Cause of Allah. This is better for you, if you but knew. Had it been a near gain (booty in front of them) and an easy journey, they would have followed you, but the distance (Tabuk expedition) was long for them, and they would swear by Allah, "If we only could, we would certainly have come forth with you." They destroy their ownselves, and Allah knows that they are liars." (9:41-42)

    "Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning). And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do." (8:38-39)

    "Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allah are those who disbelieve , - so they shall not believe. They are those with whom you made a covenant, but they break their covenant every time and they do not fear Allah. So if you gain the mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they may learn a lesson. If you (O Muhammad) fear treachery from any people throw back (their covenant) to them (so as to be) on equal terms (that there will be no more covenant between you and them). Certainly Allah likes not the treacherous. And let not those who disbelieve think that they can outstrip (escape from the punishment). Verily, they will never be able to save themselves (from Allah's Punishment)." (8:55-59)

    "And don't be weak in the pursuit of the enemy; if you are suffering (hardships) then surely, they (too) are suffering (hardships) as you are suffering, but you have a hope from Allah (for the reward, i.e. Paradise) that for which they hope not, and Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise." (4:104)

    "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it." (2:216)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
    It's not ok for anyone to occupy anyone else's sovereign territory. But islam came about during the age of empires.
    So did Zoroastrianism, Epicureanism, Buddhism, and Christianity.

    The creators of Islam did not have to follow imperialism, but they did. The followers of Islam don't have to follow an imperialist ideology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
    Also you still fail to acknowledge the point of this thread what is the difference between Columbine and 9/11? None except motive
    9/11 was motivated by Islamic dogmatism. I don't know what the motive of Columbine was, or even if there was one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
    We muslims dont owe you an explanation
    An explanation for what? Do you have an explanation?

    If the Quran was published today for the first time, it is likely it would be banned in many countries for its violent and hateful content towards non-Muslims. I don't think you could give a satisfactory explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    9/11 was motivated by Islamic dogmatism. I don't know what the motive of Columbine was, or even if there was one.
    I just read a fatwa by a scholar. It says that religious debates are forbidden under the quranic verse that if people are talking of kufr a muslim should leave. I would be more than happy to crush your arguments but sadly as it says in the quran to muhammaf the disbelievers will continue to persist until they convert you to their religion, in quranic terms a seal is on their hearts. A seal maybe on your heart. I've had enough going back and forth when I have already addressed your question. Thank you for wasting my Allah given time. I'm locking this thread.

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