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Thread: How can an IEI be useful to SLE? + Ego death side effect of Dualizing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    Yeah, what can I say.. I don't think the duals seem very interesting for extroverts when younger, it's only when you get more experience you start to understand even the fact that there are wildly different personalities and it actually matters. I think for SLE (or extroverted and sensing types in general) it's easy to just go for the good-looking and exciting people at first until after enough disappointments you realize something about duality, perhaps after meeting one accidentally.

    I find it a bit difficult to put into words, but IEI are the perfect combination of mysterious insight, subtle but delightfully dramatic and mocking Fe and ability to not be offended by rudeness. They seem to be amazed of your capability to do mundane and trivial things while living in this intriguing dreamworld. Interacting with IEI is never boring because while they do very little in the real world, all those mental explorations result in a lot of unexpected insights and while impractical they usually seem very smart in philosophical ways and are eager to understand the world. They just need help with the perception of the static reality, confirming what is real and what isn't, help with practical things and sometimes a bit of push to venture out in the world and actually do things using their body instead of their mind. I don't see them as useless. Sure, they might not perform these practical mundane boring tasks very well, but it's the mind of an IEI that is an endless source of interesting conversations, funny expressions and vocal impressions. IEI are the masters of using their voice to convey emotions, truly dramatic or often in the form of mockery. Making fun of other people is something both SLE and IEI enjoy. The world-rejecting quality of Ni-Se is reflected in the tastes that beta NF have for disturbing, otherworldly unreal and even violent art. The tastes of Ne/Si valuers often seem bland and mundane in comparison.. too soft, wholesome and infantile.
    IEI have the capability of predicting social outcomes very well and can help the SLE to not make social blunders that they sometimes make due to brashness that results in social backlash. However being irrationals, they don't mind a bit of chaos and rule-breaking..

    To summarize, I definitely think IEI have a lot to offer to the SLE, it's just not in the form of practical things. It's their superbly weird insightful minds, suitably demure sweetness and capacity for forgiveness. SLE often have a problem of being dissatisfied with anything they have, forever reaching for something more. Enjoying what you have in the moment is not for ignoring Si. With an IEI you can somehow exist outside time and reality for a while and feel happy. That is enough. They don't need to be productive or capable in the physical world. They can inject meaning into the most basic mundane things. Se in itself just sees things as they truly are, devoid of feelings, potentalities or meaning and sometimes this can feel depressingly banal.
    I can't add anything onto this. It's too good. BRAVO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akira View Post
    At some point it seems they need the influence of Se to develop properly. Probably something similar happens with most types.

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    Also remember that a lot of duals who get together don’t know anything about socionics. You might just see each other as nice people from
    the start. I think if I were to end up with a dual I’d end up with the ‘nice’ type..or what’s ‘nice’ to me anyway..or at least ‘nice’ for a partner..

    There are SLEs I could be friends with- I see the good in them..but doesn’t mean they’d be right for me in a relationship.

    I think we all just want to be recognised as good and special and this can feel more real with a dual I guess. It happens with non duals too..observing couples recently..the best ones seem mentally healthy with rewarding careers. (I think hobbies can also make life rewarding.)

    I think an sle/ good partner..would help me get out of my head. Stop me daydreaming/ruminating so much and get me off the couch..make my impressions and ideas come more alive in convo with their own complimentary maybe more concrete observations.

    re the IEI ‘niceness’..

    yes I would want someone to ‘get’ that I ‘need’ to see the good in people. And sometimes this will mean me being critical about other people. Personally I’d want my partner to realise that I need to critique in order to reset..I bloody love people lol. Usually..(in my core mind I do anyway..socionics/big life stuff has messed with this though recently) and of course I can be a dark IEI too but in order to see the true goodness I guess I have to see the badness too.

    I have to see the good in people though and want to help them feel special, listened to and like they are a good person. Inspire life into them. Their own goodness inspires me to be better (to live) and I can’t help but root for them. I’m inspired by the littlest things they do..I’m hardly aware of it haha. But then of course, things come apart a bit..I start to see the cracks and my mind (at the back) is like ahh but you’re a wonderful human being I need you to be wonderful, for me, for you, for everyone..

    so I vent or discuss until it all makes sense again and I can go back to seeing them as the flawed but heroic person I was first inspired by. (Subconsciously I knew they were flawed from
    the start but in my iei mind it’s hard to separate the flaws from the goodness..need to think about this more..) If an sle can help me on this mission, well that’s great haha. Maybe the sle appreciates me doing it for them too. Maybe they can help me see my flaws too and be more comfortable with them.
    Last edited by Bethany; 01-21-2021 at 09:35 PM.
    Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap but by the seeds that you plant.

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    Overall, IEIs offer tactical perspectives when dealing with people - somewhat like a diplomat. Although SLEs can be somewhat strategic and practical in their thinking, they can also be overly transparent in a roguish sort of way and come across as untrustworthy or with hidden agendas - even when it's not true. They're often OK with things but clumsy with people whereas IEIs tend to be the opposite.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    I agree with Northstar's point that one of the best things a healthy IEI could offer an SLE is meaning. I wonder if this meaning is even more important than the ability to future-forecast.

    The need for social forecasting might vary depending on the SLE. I’d imagine this would be more important to an SLE who is Social first or second and cares about "rising in the ranks” or having some sort of influence in the world. A Social-last SLE might not care about this gift of the IEI as much, but would still very much care about being able to see the world through emotional rather than pragmatic eyes.

    Side note, it seems like future-forecasting might be more crucial in the SEE/ILI pair than with SLE/IEI. Probably because the SEE can be illogical and thus needs more warnings about what will happen as a result of their actions. SLE with developed Thinking is less likely to make irrational decisions, although they still can and do because they’re impulsive.
    The forecasting between IEI and SLE will relate to more social aspects but it won't be any less important whatever the instinct stackings.

    This makes me think of a story. It's about something that happened between me and an SLE that I've known since middle school. In order to understand it you have to know that we were both living in an area with a quite a lot of violence so avoiding bad people was very important.
    The SLE used to love hanging out with a guy that in my eyes was the worst piece of shit in the world. The guy was a bully, the real mean and nasty kind. He would harass the weakest and smallest people at school (or the ones who already felt excluded by everybody) just for the fun of it. But for some reason, my SLE friend found him funny.
    All throughout middle and then high school I kept telling him to stop hanging out with the bully. Their relationship really got under my skin because it was obvious to me that the bully didn't really have friends. He was smart, manipulative and just liked having a crowd. But the SLE just wouldn't listen.
    After high school I moved out of town for my higher education and I lost touch with him. But one day he texted me out of the blue after years of not speaking to each other. He explained to me that the bully from school had just done him extremely wrong.
    On a Saturday morning, the bully invited the SLE and another one of their "friends" to hang out. He told them to meet him in the hall of a building where they liked to spend time together sometimes. The SLE declined the invitation saying that it was way too early for a Saturday. The other one however still accepted to meet, but when he arrived in the hall a group of guys came out of nowhere and assaulted him. It was a trap and obviously the bully was in on it. The plan was to get the both of them beat up in a place where no one would see it.
    When the SLE told me this I was shocked but I wasn't. I was just mad that it took this little ambush for him to finally realize that he should have listened to me.

    It also makes me think of an SLE boss that I had while working for a small business (less than 15 people). When he wanted to hire a new person but wasn't too sure about them he would give me money to take them for drinks or to eat together with other colleagues. Then he would ask me if in my opinion the candidate would get along with the rest of the team.

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    Being useful is only one aspect of duality. SLEs are weak IEIs on the inside, and IEIs are weak SLEs on the inside. The functions complement each other in a way that's hard to explain. A SLE "doesn't lack" Ni, they have it, but it is weak, and the IEI "doesn't lack" Se, they have it but it is weak. Simply the presence of the inferior function will have a positive effect on the partner.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
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    Well people aren't Swiss army knives or whatever. You should ideally be liked for who you are, not how 'useful' you can be to a person lol. That is just unhealthy narc crap regardless of sociotype. I cringed sometimes when watching Thomas the Train and they called Thomas a "really useful engine." Ugh fuck that Te valuing shit. FUCK YOUR TE SIR TOPHAM HAT!!!

    I wouldn't get that infatuated when a SLE spits in ur mouth either or whatever- because chances are they do that to most everybody they meet anyway. It takes more than 4D Se to impress me - especially now since I'm not a teenager anymore lol. Instead I would teach them basic morals. You're supposed to be a morality and ethical pill they can swallow unlike EIIs. The IEI is supposed to be 'uhh don't do that, you'll go to prison lol' and the SLE should listen. ((instead the IEI not telling them due to infatuation and the SLE going to prison anyway.))

    If I'm disrespected even once in a relationship- I immediately leave and let them known it won't happen again. I don't like the erotic attitudes being called 'victim' since I usually like to be on top in bed anyway as they have the most surge of power. Yet it does sometimes make me vomit to the type of abuse some IEI females seem to attract. ((I probably projected a lot of what IEI women deal with to 'all women' and I apologize for that, but forgive me as I do have lots of IEI female family members & friends.)) I personally wouldn't deal with that level of masochism lol. They don't seem to even like it much anyway- they always rant and complain to me about it. They like the emotional drama aspect of it but don't do well with the real sadism of it. Unhealthy relationships are unhealthy- I think there can be a thin line between being a 'submissive' and putting up with abuse.

    Some things ur meant to masturbate in the bathroom or whatever as a fantasy. Ur not supposed to make 'everything real' like some IEI women try lol.

    I tried to be sassy gay friend and avoid their fate but it didn't work like it did in the videos lololol

    Last edited by BandD; 01-24-2021 at 04:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Being useful is only one aspect of duality. SLEs are weak IEIs on the inside, and IEIs are weak SLEs on the inside. The functions complement each other in a way that's hard to explain. A SLE "doesn't lack" Ni, they have it, but it is weak, and the IEI "doesn't lack" Se, they have it but it is weak. Simply the presence of the inferior function will have a positive effect on the partner.
    Concise, and really hits the mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Well people aren't Swiss army knives or whatever. You should ideally be liked for who you are, not how 'useful' you can be to a person lol. That is just unhealthy narc crap regardless of sociotype. I cringed sometimes when watching Thomas the Train and they called Thomas a "really useful engine." Ugh fuck that Te valuing shit. FUCK YOUR TE SIR TOPHAM HAT!!!

    I wouldn't get that infatuated when a SLE spits in ur mouth either or whatever- because chances are they do that to most everybody they meet anyway. It takes more than 4D Se to impress me - especially now since I'm not a teenager anymore lol. Instead I would teach them basic morals. You're supposed to be a morality and ethical pill they can swallow unlike EIIs. The IEI is supposed to be 'uhh don't do that, you'll go to prison lol' and the SLE should listen. ((instead the IEI not telling them due to infatuation and the SLE going to prison anyway.))

    If I'm disrespected even once in a relationship- I immediately leave and let them known it won't happen again. I don't like the erotic attitudes being called 'victim' since I usually like to be on top in bed anyway as they have the most surge of power. Yet it does sometimes make me vomit to the type of abuse some IEI females seem to attract. ((I probably projected a lot of what IEI women deal with to 'all women' and I apologize for that, but forgive me as I do have lots of IEI female family members & friends.)) I personally wouldn't deal with that level of masochism lol. They don't seem to even like it much anyway- they always rant and complain to me about it. They like the emotional drama aspect of it but don't do well with the real sadism of it. Unhealthy relationships are unhealthy- I think there can be a thin line between being a 'submissive' and putting up with abuse.

    Some things ur meant to masturbate in the bathroom or whatever as a fantasy. Ur not supposed to make 'everything real' like some IEI women try lol.

    I tried to be sassy gay friend and avoid their fate but it didn't work like it did in the videos lololol

    Hahahaha, you're great. My sides . I love Ni base.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I wouldn't get that infatuated when a SLE spits in ur mouth either or whatever- because chances are they do that to most everybody they meet anyway. It takes more than 4D Se to impress me - especially now since I'm not a teenager anymore lol. Instead I would teach them basic morals. You're supposed to be a morality and ethical pill they can swallow unlike EIIs. The IEI is supposed to be 'uhh don't do that, you'll go to prison lol' and the SLE should listen. ((instead the IEI not telling them due to infatuation and the SLE going to prison anyway.))
    pretty sure Fe isn't about morals, see here: https://socioniks.net/article/?id=119 Fe is more like managing the social atmosphere kinda like being charismatic, passionate and such. Reminds me of the D&D Bard class managing the mood of the party.

    I don't think SLE's look for the Fi in IEI or the Fe tbh, its all about Ni, which has even less to do with morals. e_e SLE would probably get annoyed and walk the fuq away tbh..

    What IEIs offer SLE's:

    5. Ni: dual-seeking function of ESTp and program function of INFp
    IEI periodically makes "program" function statements that concern planning, since he sees very well the potential negative development of person's actions over time. He remembers past events and is able to use them to "catch" a person, to expose his cunning by use of a certain plan. The SLE listens to these statements, not questioning them as a whole, since that easily leads to an irritated reaction from the IEI. The SLE periodically comes to IEI for advice concerning this function, asking questions about forecasting the behavior of people: "What can be expected from this person?", "Is he being sincere or dishonest?", "Friend or foe?", etc. Commentary on this function should be issued in small portions and in the correct form. Not receiving advice regarding potential threats, the SLE is deprived of the point of application of his efforts. When the SLE does receive such a program, he becomes impassioned and starts to act resolutely.
    Source: http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...ulenko#IEI-SLE

    hell yes Ti figured it out once again! nom nom

    What IEI wants from SLE:

    1. Se: program function of ESTp and dual-seeking function of INFp
    The SLE periodically makes "program" function statements about the need for resolute action, but never requires it to be undertaken immediately. The main requirement of his sensing "program" is the achievement of major objectives with application of force only when it's absolutely necessary. SLE's strategy is an open declaration of conflict with subsequent pressure exerted on his opposition through individuals who are able to exert such an influence. The IEI listening to these "program" statements shouldn't question them as a whole. Any remarks on this aspect should be made in small portions and in proper form. Criticisms of this kind are not possible because the IEI unconsciously seeks such manifestations of such resolute activity and willpower within his environment. On this same function the IEI turns to SLE for advice regarding abilities of different people, their strengths and weaknesses, their progress forward, etc. He seeks consultation regarding the degree of his own actions and efforts; not receiving advice of this kind the IEI being unaware of it advances with his/her own harsh "program".
    e_e further.. SLEs aren't criminal in general or such, they just don't understand relationships with other ppl well or the relationships amongst other ppl, they may assume someone is their friend, when they are not and then be surprised when they get "stabbed in the back" and such or they may react badly to something that wasn't intended as such. Very hard for them to figure this whole social relational stuff out. In contrast e as LSI I'm just overly suspicions of pp, not oblivious nor is it a complete blind spot for me, but for the SLE it is.

    4. Fi: vulnerable function of ESTp and demonstrative function of INFp

    SLE poorly sees what relations are developing between people. He fears that his personal relationships will be put on display or used against him. It is difficult for him to openly express his sympathy for another person. He often makes mistakes when he assumes that someone relates to him well. Moving towards his purpose, he risks evoking bad attitudes in others when they notice his quality to not to stop at anything. IEI refrains from openly criticizing this function and treats it with understanding. Lecturing and annoying hectoring over this element can lead to a sharp deterioration of SLE's mood. The IEI unconsciously produces large psychological distances on this element, he as if slips away from his conversation partner, closes himself off behind a meaningless smile. Events that are relayed by his conversation partner do not affect him deeply. It is exactly these kind of elusively polite relations that seem inviting to the SLE, creating for him the stability of the external psychological situation.
    Even SLE - IEI Fe interaction is something entirely different from moralizing

    6. Fe: activating function of ESTp and creative function of INFp

    SLE feels uncomfortable when it's necessary to show negative emotions: blow some steam, start a personal quarrel, cry or yell at people. Therefore, he hold himself in an accentuated cool and confident manner and prefers to state things directly and succinctly: "I don't like this", "Leave, and go to another place" rather than raise any commotion. At the same time SLE requires periodic "charging up" with positive emotions. The IEI lifts his spirits with humor, funny antics and stories, and that he loves to fool around. Without such input SLE's vitality decreases. At the same time the "product" of IEI's ethical function, "to cause emotional reactions in people", is smoothed out by the fact that SLE will initiate emotional quarrels only over significant and important for him issues.
    To sum it up IEI provides SLE with guidance regarding goals, who to trust, who is friend or foe, where to maneuver and what could most likely happen. The SLE then accepts this and executes, flexibly maneuvering according to the IEI's advice and his/her own logic.

    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 01-25-2021 at 01:52 PM.

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    pretty sure Fe isn't about morals, see here: https://socioniks.net/article/?id=119 Fe is more like managing the social atmosphere kinda like being charismatic, passionate and such. Reminds me of the D&D Bard class managing the mood of the party.

    I don't think SLE's look for the Fi in IEI or the Fe tbh, its all about Ni, which has even less to do with morals. e_e SLE would probably get annoyed and walk the fuq away tbh..

    Ok so because im new here i don't know how to respond to your paragraphs separately in neat blocks
    I agree with BandD that IEI's improve SLE's morals but this is not a deliberate or conscious way sometimes. I've had a few SLE's say I made them want to be a better person. I didn't realise i had this effect, it came as a surprise to me. cuz I don't ACT like an ethical do-gooder all the time, for example i have a notorious history of cheating (yeah i know, im a piece of shit), i tell white lies for convenience, and i can stereotype certain groups of people who i think have bad intentions

    Strat describes Fe in IEI's as "exceptional sincerity, sensitivity and tact (+Fe)" from the dual description https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya

    IEI periodically makes "program" function statements that concern planning, since he sees very well the potential negative development of person's actions over time. He remembers past events and is able to use them to "catch" a person, to expose his cunning by use of a certain plan. The SLE listens to these statements, not questioning them as a whole, since that easily leads to an irritated reaction from the IEI. The SLE periodically comes to IEI for advice concerning this function, asking questions about forecasting the behavior of people: "What can be expected from this person?", "Is he being sincere or dishonest?", "Friend or foe?", etc. Commentary on this function should be issued in small portions and in the correct form. Not receiving advice regarding potential threats, the SLE is deprived of the point of application of his efforts. When the SLE does receive such a program, he becomes impassioned and starts to act resolutely.

    This is interesting. I thought this was what everyone did, keep track of consequences of what something (health, relationship, activities) is progressing towards. The thought of not doing that would throw me off kilter

    About the part of being aware of people's motives, I regularly consult my ILI friend to confirm or invalidate my suspicions, since I am not that clever and I project my own assumptions of what is wrong and right. For example: *Older man is overly friendly to me and makes a few questionable comments*
    *in my head: Hmmm, this is a bit weird, but he wouldn't dare pass that boundary. He must know I'm too young for him. I'm just going to assume he's being friendly.*
    *Later on, someone tells me yes it is weird, and i fearfully have my suspicions confirmed*

    One way I make commentary on the character quality of others is I tell people close to me whether I think the company they keep is good for them or if they are below their standard and dragging them down. I am surprised when I see someone consistently spending time with a low-life that doesn't positively benefit them at all. Move onto greener pastures I say


    Also, a question for you, do you see yourself similar to the ILI type?
    What are the major differences?
    I have the hardest time telling these types apart.

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    @shotgunfingers

    You misunderstand. The point is people need help with their polr the most and sometimes the 4D functions of the 8th function can be conflictor-ish and seemingly ego at times to help the other person truly grow. I think people have this misconception that demonstrative function is about overly coddling somebody's weaknesses , which disgusts me. On the same token if an IEI refuses to face any Te and just floats in outer space- a SLE can't save them either no matter how much they 'love' them. So many times dual relationships can be 'supervisor-lite' or 'conflictor-lite' for this reason.

    And yeah look at how shitty their Fi polr is. Am I supposed to pretend it's not shitty because I like them and cuz of 'duality'? lol they certainly aren't doing that for my Te.... they need a harsh EII to offend them sometimes really. ILEs protect my Te better but then again I don't like them as much either.

    I don't know any healthy SLE-IEI couple that worked out because of infatuation, which is a huge moral flaw. Yes usually the IEI will be 'infatuated' with the SLE in a weird way and get a weird one-sided crush and confuse some logical mechanical moments of psychological protection as "romance." But this infatuation is so dangerous to be overly nice to somebody and look over their flaws because you like them and often these aren't a 'relationship' so much as the person just being used and manipulated in a completely one-sided way. In the end they just end in disaster.

    Fi is what makes you capable of real love & the means to truly protect a relationship, if it's your weakness- you have huge issues. You can't even be in a relationship in the first place lol there's nothing. They need corrective of that weird immoral shit. I'm not going to be like 'aw how cute a sociopathic asshole' like some typical air headed demented IEI that needs to be euthanized.

    /summons Maritsa the Berserker class on y'all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yesein View Post

    Ok so because im new here i don't know how to respond to your paragraphs separately in neat blocks
    I agree with BandD that IEI's improve SLE's morals but this is not a deliberate or conscious way sometimes. I've had a few SLE's say I made them want to be a better person. I didn't realise i had this effect, it came as a surprise to me. cuz I don't ACT like an ethical do-gooder all the time, for example i have a notorious history of cheating (yeah i know, im a piece of shit), i tell white lies for convenience, and i can stereotype certain groups of people who i think have bad intentions
    The "us vs them" mentality is supposed to be stereotypical beta quadra tbh. I do it as well. IEIs have 4D Fi creative in model G at least, so their Fi is as strong as a EII's, however it isn't valued, so it manifests like this:

    "2. Realization Function —R — Relations Ethics aka Fi
    IEI reinforces her attitude with actions. For loved ones, she will do a lot.
    She becomes enterprising if she feels she is gaining sympathy from others.
    She reliably performs her present duties only in a team with an established
    system of interpersonal relationships. She warns that personal enmity and
    disagreement will lead to the collapse of the business. She does everything
    she can to ensure that business relations are accompanied by favorable
    informal ties. She introduces a harmonizing force into the work collective.
    Capable of persuading people, she manages her relationships in such a way
    that the business turns to its advantageous side. She successfully uses
    acquaintances and personal charm."

    IEI Fe:


    Demonstrative Function +E — Emotional Ethics aka Fe
    She is well-versed in the laws of the emotional lives of people. She is
    able to make requests at the right time (when a person is in
    a good mood), so it is difficult to refuse her. She reacts sensitively to the
    funny things in life and she loves humor. She jokes, fools around, and
    bothers people close to her, creating positive emotions in a variety of
    ways. She is peaceful and cannot tolerate quarrels between people who are
    close to her. She forgives easily and is willing to make sacrifices for the
    sake of remedying a conflict. She is inwardly anxious. IEI experiences a
    lot, but hides excitement and a bad mood behind a soft smile.

    as you can see neither is really about morality, which imo is something unrelated to socionics.

    [B]
    Also, a question for you, do you see yourself similar to the ILI type?
    What are the major differences?
    I have the hardest time telling these types apart.
    hmm, ILI's are much more at home with the purely abstract. They are an IP type and Ni base.. IEIs and ILIs basically never hurry to do anything even when psychologically healthy, its why they need the Se program of SLEs and SEEs, to get them moving as they prefer to spend time in their imaginations and can get stuck there without someone with Se to drag them around. Probably why Se is refreshing to them. This is different from lets say me being depressed and unmotivated. I'm more at home with concrete cause and effect chain reaction thinking, learn better by doing, hate lectures, a concrete realist. I basically do not daydream as that is too boring. Hmm.. other things, well I'm more comfortable and willing to engage someone in a physical confrontation aka a fight. I may discharge aggression by impacting the physical world aka break shit when angry. ILIs are much more zen. While I may engage abstract topics such as enjoying thinking about and reading Plato's Republic, after a while I have to return to more concrete hands on things aka there is a limit (but I do enjoy Ni-Ti loops lol).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    @shotgunfingers

    You misunderstand. The point is people need help with their polr the most and sometimes the 4D functions of the 8th function can be conflictor-ish and seemingly ego at times to help the other person truly grow. I think people have this misconception that demonstrative function is about overly coddling somebody's weaknesses , which disgusts me. On the same token if an IEI refuses to face any Te and just floats in outer space- a SLE can't save them either no matter how much they 'love' them. So many times dual relationships can be 'supervisor-lite' or 'conflictor-lite' for this reason.


    And yeah look at how shitty their Fi polr is. Am I supposed to pretend it's not shitty because I like them and cuz of 'duality'? lol they certainly aren't doing that for my Te.... they need a harsh EII to offend them sometimes really. ILEs protect my Te better but then again I don't like them as much either.

    I don't know any healthy SLE-IEI couple that worked out because of infatuation, which is a huge moral flaw. Yes usually the IEI will be 'infatuated' with the SLE in a weird way and get a weird one-sided crush and confuse some logical mechanical moments of psychological protection as "romance." But this infatuation is so dangerous to be overly nice to somebody and look over their flaws because you like them and often these aren't a 'relationship' so much as the person just being used and manipulated in a completely one-sided way. In the end they just end in disaster.

    Fi is what makes you capable of real love & the means to truly protect a relationship, if it's your weakness- you have huge issues. You can't even be in a relationship in the first place lol there's nothing. They need corrective of that weird immoral shit. I'm not going to be like 'aw how cute a sociopathic asshole' like some typical air headed demented IEI that needs to be euthanized.
    Yeah, I think this is true. The point I'm trying to make is that Fi isn't rly about morals its mainly about interpersonal relationships.. so the IEI is passively improving the SLE's ability to form better interpersonal relationships and interpret these without annoying the SLE due to Fi while excellent in strength not being valued by the IEI. I guess one can say that makes the SLE a better person.. but the SLE could just stay an asshole with bad intentions benefiting from the IEI helping them interpret and make more sense of their interactions with others. There is a difference between results and intention imo and I see this more from a deontological perspective and not from a consequentialist one. If the SLE's results in interaction improve, but his/her innate core motivation is not there.. that just means he/she is unintentionally appearing to become a better person.

    In reverse the SLE might be genuinely a good person with good intentions, but due to Fi PolR the results in relationships with other ppl end up bad. In this case the IEI would have a similar effect of helping the SLE appear to become a better person, but the SLE was like that from the start .. the IEI merely made him/her nicer to deal with.

    ^^' EXIs are not saints ye know.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 01-27-2021 at 06:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    The point is people need help with their polr the most and sometimes the 4D functions of the 8th function can be conflictor-ish and seemingly ego at times to help the other person truly grow. I think people have this misconception that demonstrative function is about overly coddling somebody's weaknesses , which disgusts me. On the same token if an IEI refuses to face any Te and just floats in outer space- a SLE can't save them either no matter how much they 'love' them. So many times dual relationships can be 'supervisor-lite' or 'conflictor-lite' for this reason.

    And yeah look at how shitty their Fi polr is. Am I supposed to pretend it's not shitty because I like them and cuz of 'duality'? lol they certainly aren't doing that for my Te.... they need a harsh EII to offend them sometimes really. ILEs protect my Te better but then again I don't like them as much either.

    I don't know any healthy SLE-IEI couple that worked out because of infatuation, which is a huge moral flaw. Yes usually the IEI will be 'infatuated' with the SLE in a weird way and get a weird one-sided crush and confuse some logical mechanical moments of psychological protection as "romance." But this infatuation is so dangerous to be overly nice to somebody and look over their flaws because you like them and often these aren't a 'relationship' so much as the person just being used and manipulated in a completely one-sided way. In the end they just end in disaster.

    Fi is what makes you capable of real love & the means to truly protect a relationship, if it's your weakness- you have huge issues. You can't even be in a relationship in the first place lol there's nothing. They need corrective of that weird immoral shit. I'm not going to be like 'aw how cute a sociopathic asshole' like some typical air headed demented IEI that needs to be euthanized.

    /summons Maritsa the Berserker class on y'all.
    Good reminders before my date with a red-flaggy SLE....strongly agree with what you said about Fi, too.

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    Don't wanna discourage you too much @Emily but yeah be careful and love yourself first most of all. <3

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Don't wanna discourage you too much @Emily but yeah be careful and love yourself first most of all. <3
    Not discouraging at all, more like a good reality check

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    @shotgunfingers

    You misunderstand. The point is people need help with their polr the most and sometimes the 4D functions of the 8th function can be conflictor-ish and seemingly ego at times to help the other person truly grow. I think people have this misconception that demonstrative function is about overly coddling somebody's weaknesses , which disgusts me. On the same token if an IEI refuses to face any Te and just floats in outer space- a SLE can't save them either no matter how much they 'love' them. So many times dual relationships can be 'supervisor-lite' or 'conflictor-lite' for this reason.

    And yeah look at how shitty their Fi polr is. Am I supposed to pretend it's not shitty because I like them and cuz of 'duality'? lol they certainly aren't doing that for my Te.... they need a harsh EII to offend them sometimes really. ILEs protect my Te better but then again I don't like them as much either.

    I don't know any healthy SLE-IEI couple that worked out because of infatuation, which is a huge moral flaw. Yes usually the IEI will be 'infatuated' with the SLE in a weird way and get a weird one-sided crush and confuse some logical mechanical moments of psychological protection as "romance." But this infatuation is so dangerous to be overly nice to somebody and look over their flaws because you like them and often these aren't a 'relationship' so much as the person just being used and manipulated in a completely one-sided way. In the end they just end in disaster.

    Fi is what makes you capable of real love & the means to truly protect a relationship, if it's your weakness- you have huge issues. You can't even be in a relationship in the first place lol there's nothing. They need corrective of that weird immoral shit. I'm not going to be like 'aw how cute a sociopathic asshole' like some typical air headed demented IEI that needs to be euthanized.

    /summons Maritsa the Berserker class on y'all.
    HEY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ME
    im the airhead IEI infatuated with an SLE... that needs to be vaccinated

    i agree with you on most parts because you have some really original insights, but I'm not sure that SLEs really do care about Te PoLR.
    in fact the SLE i am currently with, the inspiration for my embarrassing post, offered to support me entirely on their income . They also don't ask triggering Te questions like "so what are your plans for work/schooling/etc", "you should really get xyz and z going and then you can xyz" that awkwardly draw attention to my lack of practical acumen.

    On the contrary when I was with an SEE they bugged me a lot about Te stuff. SEEs (and gammas in general) are the ones that wanna push you and make you work. Before the SEE I was with an ESI dude that pushed me in the same manner. Under Te in dual descriptions, Gulenko: Intrusive tips and annoying reminders about how to handle money (IEI is wasteful, uneconomical), the need to work, to be thrifty, to not be lazy, etc., can easily ruin IEI's mood and serve as a latent reason for quarrels. - Yeah, shamefully this was the situation.

    My SEE was an ungrateful asshole, so he'd probably seem like an SLE, and he typed as a logical when he took the test. Maybe all sensor assholes get put down as SLE. But some are real sweethearts and even coo when they see a cute animal.

    How I see Fi PoLR, removed from just being an asshole = not being able to open up about personal sentiments and feelings, needing a lot of alone time/being anti-social in the sense that their social battery is very low, low patience for polite small talk and/or pretending to care about what someone is talking about, being unable to "tolerate" people and be patient with them, not being able to indulge someone confiding about private stuff, being paranoid about negative signals in body language or tone, blurting out awkward remarks. Even being OVERLY polite is something I've noticed in Fi PoLRs, at least in the beginning. And that's where the IEI or SEI comes in and jokes about them being so polite, and then the tension goes away, and banter ensues >

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    @shotgunfingers

    Aha yes, us vs them. I find it easier to quickly find a familiar language with Gammas than alpha/delta because of this because they're also edgelords.

    as you can see neither is really about morality, which imo is something unrelated to socionics. -

    yeah, i agree. i started off in life with empathy but no morals, if that makes sense. Morals are learnt. I think morals require a deeper understanding of a situation/person. If you ever have kids have them read Enid Blyton around the age of 8. Her books are very morally enriching.
    Brain chemicals may play a role too. Serotonin/dopamine levels, thyroid metabolism, drug use, mood disorders, childhood trauma. My moral compass goes away when my blood sugar drops and I start to think like an animal. We are influenced a lot by our bodily tides. I know a drugged up EIE that resembles an SLE caricature.

    hmm, ILI's are much more at home with the purely abstract. They are an IP type and Ni base.. IEIs and ILIs basically never hurry to do anything even when psychologically healthy, its why they need the Se program of SLEs and SEEs, to get them moving as they prefer to spend time in their imaginations and can get stuck there without someone with Se to drag them around.

    Makes sense. LSI and SLE I noticed always have to be physically occupied with something and hate lazing around, unless they're drinking alcohol. I hate lazing around too but I feel like I also need a reason to move, lol

    Hmm.. other things, well I'm more comfortable and willing to engage someone in a physical confrontation aka a fight. I may discharge aggression by impacting the physical world aka break shit when angry.
    Oh yeah, I see it. I've seen an LSI angry before. It was quite scary. Someone kept moving his stuff. Socionics is right when it mentioned that LSI's really hate their belongings being tampered with.

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    i agree with you on most parts because you have some really original insights, but I'm not sure that SLEs really do care about Te PoLR.
    I think you're right - which is why a few SLEs I know might be mistyped. I think I just playing a "victim" role tho and wanted to be proven wrong though to make myself feel better as I realize my post was dramatically negative and subversive, so thank you.


    But I still think it's stupid to be infatuated with them. They are really awesome though right. <3

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post


    I think you're right - which is why a few SLEs I know might be mistyped. I think I just playing a "victim" role tho and wanted to be proven wrong though to make myself feel better as I realize my post was dramatically negative and subversive, so thank you.


    But I still think it's stupid to be infatuated with them. They are really awesome though right. <3
    Np bb girl
    I have the same. I just want to be proven wrong sometimes when i purge my negative projections.

    It is stupid to be infatuated with them, yes infatuation is like a person being your drug of choice and it's very unwell behavior.
    they are awesome, yeep , couldn't ask for a better dual ... we are lucky ducklings. And the sex is gr8... not that that takes priority over the spiritual connection of course : )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yesein View Post
    ESTp's are so perfect. They can do anything. They can cook, clean, garden, surf, row boats, shoot, hunt, survive without complaint in the wild, make a bedside table.
    IEI"s are useless and we don't do anything

    So called Dualisation has just brought impending doom upon me. An ego death to the max. A bundle of insecurity and self jabs. I kind of realized how crap my psycho-type is only when a SLE enters the picture. Their social skills aren't even as bad as I thought they'd be for a Fi PoLR, their blasé attitude is very endearing. So I can't even feel more competent in that aspect. Being an IEI is a cursed existence.

    What the hell do we bring to the table? Why don't SLE score a hot and confident ESE instead?

    Ok so a few questions. First, if you are IEI, do you have something similar in the presence of an SLE? Do you feel bedazzled and paralyzed by their sheer competence, "can do" attitude, strength, everything. How do you deal with this. I cannot function in the presence of a god.

    And secondly if you are another type or IEI yourself, what the hell does the IEI supply the SLE? How can IEI be useful to them? And it also be a fair exchange?

    Is it an equal trade off (IEI helps soothe the SLE's mood swings, is all patient with their impulses and keeps them "happy", and the SLE is all practical and useful and physically motivated), because the SLE is good at and enjoys being active, but the IEI not as much, so it's actually no biggie *shrugs nonchalantly* for the both of them? Is that it?
    IEIs can caution SLEs from fake friends and give advice on how to handle ethical matters.
    ~ ESTP ~ SLE ~ 7w8 ~ Sp/Sx ~ Fire ~ Aries ~ Beta ~ Gryffindor ~ Summer ~ SLUEN ~

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    I still think it's more about the ESTps mood swings than advising about how to pick friends. I honestly don't think I ever give advice on the latter (maybe if asked, okay, but it's not that this situation comes up a lot usually.).

    Also the making duality work article mentions this specifically: "Despite these natural inclinations, many members of this type are not even aware of their enormous potential and often suffer from lack of confidence, or hold some irrational notions. They need a partner who demonstrates inexhaustible optimism and faith in the success of any endeavor. The main thing is to rid these people of their anxieties, suspicions and doubts – the rest they will overcome themselves."

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