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Thread: How to get through to an EII?

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    Default How to get through to an EII?

    I have a friend whose sister is an EII. The EII is about 19, has been given a great deal of opportunities, and has pissed or is pissing most of them away. For her own sake I would be interested in any advice re. getting through to her to get her to stop throwing her life away.

    The main issue is that the EII is going to a private, expensive arts college to get a degree in something fairly specialized; her program is the only one in the country that can provide it. Her tuition is being covered by her parents; none of her siblings had that opportunity, and it isn't as if she was forced to go to college -- her parents had to make big sacrifices for her, because of her own desires. Anyway, this past semester she failed all but one of her classes (the remaining class she received a D- in), because she didn't bother to do the work in them. She simply didn't submit assignments or take tests. Some professors emailed her asking if something was wrong; she didn't even read the emails she received.

    She has mostly avoided talking about this with her family, but her justification for this was "I was depressed." Maybe she was, but at some point you have to admit responsibility, I think. Even her depression, to the extent that it's real, is her fault. It's caused by being home. She stopped submitting work when she came home: her university allowed students to return home from the dorms if their family was at risk for Covid. She lied and claimed the school kicked her out; her parents never bothered to check this claim. The school also sent partial reimbursement to her parents for the cost of her dorm; she stole this money from them.

    Speaking of her finances, she has two maxed-out credit cards, and spends all the money she ever earns as soon as she earns it. She doesn't even spend it on anything enjoyable, like drugs or alcohol or prostitutes or gambling: she mostly, as far as I can tell, spends it at Half-Priced Books buying videos and movies which she mostly never touches (never actual books, incidentally). Her room is filled with stacks and stacks of disc containers. You can't see the floor for them. The rest of it goes to fast food -- she eats out far more frequently than she can afford -- and online purchases and donations. She seems to buy Funko Pops, movie posters, and various cheap "merch" every single day. She also gives money (she doesn't have) to I'm not sure what. $50 a month regularly goes to Patreon, and I know she at least sometimes makes other donations to...some people; I'm not sure who they are, with the exception of a certain band to which I believe she paid $50 or so in exchange for a box of signed autographs and a lock of hair from the lead singer. She has no expenses; her parents pay her insurance and cell phone bill -- there's no reason she should be in debt already, certainly not over $3k in debt. I'm concerned about what's going to happen to her once she does have expenses.

    Her attitude is insufferable. I don't think ever in her life she's admitted responsibility for anything. She's more immature than most 6-year-olds, and acts annoyingly infantile at home (in the general sense of the word). She's obsessed with looking "cool", and much of her buying habits are directed toward this aim: for instance, she currently is planning to buy a flip phone so that she can bring one out in front of her friends and say "oh, I've just never liked smart phones" -- to seem unique. But she's incredibly sensitive, and being received with anything less than total admiration makes her become angry and/or lachrymose, in typical EII fashion. She justifies everything she does with "I felt bad" or "I wanted to buy it" and considers that sufficient.

    Back to the topic of her schoolwork, now that a better portrait has been painted, she's talented at art. I actually think she could be competitive at what she wants to do if she put any effort in, and her school provides good networking opportunities. But her problem is that she simply doesn't want to do anything. She doesn't like being at university, in my opinion because she feels smaller there, and she doesn't receive as much attention, especially from her family, even though being home causes her not to do anything at all.

    She recently told her sister that she wanted to drop out and become either a professional skateboarder or a drummer. Obviously this is fucking stupid, not least because there's no chance in hell she would ever even practice skateboarding or drumming; she just thinks she'd magically be good at it without any effort. But I'm concerned she's actually planning on it. In any case, if she doesn't make all As this semester, she will be kicked out of her school. I would bet a large amount of money that this happens, especially as she lied again to her parents in order to ensure that she'd stay at home for this upcoming semester also.

    I'm not really close with the EII, and I do not think she would accept advice from me. Everyone in her family is scared of confrontation, so they wouldn't talk to her, except maybe my friend. But I've known her for a long time and I feel partially responsible for her (because of personal history. Her family has never been the best, and I used to buy food for her and her younger brother when they didn't have food at home). I feel like in 5-10 years she's going to be married to a loser and addicted to meth, or the sex slave of some thousandaire in the woods. I'd rather not see this happen, but I don't see that I can do much. I'm open to any advice, both in general or even just in the realm of what sorts of communication work better with EIIs or something.

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    Marep's Avatar
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    She doesn't really sound like an EII, especially given her money wasting habits.
    Last edited by Marep; 01-06-2021 at 08:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marep View Post
    She doesn't really sound like EII, especially given her money wasting habit.
    Sounds Fe ego to me tbh. Biggest money wasters I've seen have been those types. Esp. EIE lol

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    I have to agree she doesn't sound EII, maybe IEI or EIE. The part about trying to look cool, as well as the excessive spending habits.

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    Unfortunately yes, if you don't know her well then she probably won't take advice from you. The best you could do is like, try to find her a job or something, or invite her to some kind of productive activity.

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    What you describe is more unhealthy enneagram 4 sp-last behaviour than linked to any sociotype(even if I'd guess she's some NF). Her behaviour is fuelled by a deep inferiority complex/self-esteem issues, and all her pipe dreams/spending habits are just overcompensation/coping mechanisms. The problem, of course, is that her pursuit of the fulfillment of her whims only serves to perpetuate her feelings of deficiency. As she doesn't really achieve anything right now, it lowers her self-esteem even more. I know this dynamic since I have an enneagram 4 wing.

    If you want to help her, you need to find a way to make her understand that she needs to love herself as she is. That her moodiness is ruining her own life right now. She needs to learn to accept and appreciate what she has. Only if you get her to understand will she become less irrational. If you point out her lack of responsability straight away, she'll only play the victim more and reject any advice.
    I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
    Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb

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    I agree with @lkdhf qkb. I think she sounds like an e4, but I do think it's very possible she's an EII. A very immature EII.

    I don't think there's anything you can do to help her, quite frankly. Lots of people are helping her now, and it's not having the effect that you would like to see.

    My feeling is that she hasn't reached the point yet where she sees the abyss. Where she discovers that no one is going to bail her out, so she'd better get her ass in gear and work at doing something with her life. Until that happens, she's just going to take advantage of anyone who is willing to support her in her bad habits.

    Now, having said that, do you really think she's going to become a sex slave of some thousandaire in the woods?
    I mean, a thousand dollars isn't that much money.

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    Let's say she is EII and freelance knows what he is talking about.

    I've seen this self destructive behaviour in a IEE, especially in regards to BAD Si.

    Delta is the quadra of self-destruction. Things are returning back into the wheel of the Socionics. I know this goes against current understanding, but it has to do with clipped wings issues. They squander opportunities because they believe there are always more. They burn through people that are trying to help them, because they resent their weaknesses and the need to have help in the first place. Basically they turn into unhealthy Betas. Very victimy behaviour that has infantile elements of small children. The world doesn't;t match up with their ideals so they strive to escape it. Think hippy movements, think return to the homestead type mentality. The societal norms that work for other people no longer work for them.

    Your friend is going to learn the hard way and obviously , and probably unconsciously, she wants to suffer. She wants to fall. She wants to fail. There is probably little you can do to help.

    This quadra, when pathological, wants the world to see their neuroses.

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    Do a Spooky on her:



    - Go into her room.
    - Scare the crap out of her.
    - Drag her out of her bed.
    - Bring her to a party.
    - Get her drunk.
    - Beat and talk some sense into her.

    Teach her the value of things, especially life itself. Sometimes, you have to be hard on people and strip them of things to make them appreciate what they got.

    She sounds infuriating.

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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    Via the parents is probably the best way, but the situation is probably far too removed from you and there’s always the possibility of making things worse through tinkering with a situation you may not be willing to take significant and prolonged responsibility for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    Do a Spooky on her:



    - Go into her room.
    - Scare the crap out of her.
    - Drag her out of her bed.
    - Bring her to a party.
    - Get her drunk.
    - Beat and talk some sense into her.

    Teach her the value of things, especially life itself. Sometimes, you have to be hard on people and strip them of things to make them appreciate what they got.

    She sounds infuriating.
    No. Delta NFs are some of the most stubborn people on Earth when they don't want to change. They will see you as evil and the cause of why they are miserable if you do this. None valued Se will not respond well to Se. Unless maybe if you follow it up with strong Fi.

    Plus if there was any doubt you are Se type, this post lays that to rest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    None valued Se will not respond well to Se. Unless maybe if you follow it up with strong Fi.

    Plus if there was any doubt you are Se type, this post lays that to rest.
    Oooh, isn't is just convenient that I happen to have strong Fi as well I can justify my violence with the strong Fi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Via the parents is probably the best way, but the situation is probably far too removed from you and there’s always the possibility of making things worse through tinkering with a situation you may not be willing to take significant and prolonged responsibility for.
    Her parents don’t give a shit. They don’t want to talk with their children any more than they have to, and have mental and personal problems of their own. They’re also severe alcoholics. Whenever I see them they’re drunk out of their minds, or if they haven’t begun drinking yet that day, bitter misanthropes. In the latter state they’re unwilling to talk to her and in the former they’re incapable of it. Finally, her father acts the same way with money so I’m not sure what he’d even say to her about her habits, and her mother supports everything she does and thinks she’s perfect.

    I don’t think there’s anything I can do that would have even the effect of making things worse, unfortunately. But thanks for the advice.

    Re. her being an EII, she’s just very very immature. I haven’t really illustrated her entire personality. She’s creative, is attracted to the unusual in the way Ne egos generally are (and often manifests it through her art), and — well, it’s difficult for me to explain how Fi manifests, but you’ll probably just have to take my word for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    Do a Spooky on her:



    - Go into her room.
    - Scare the crap out of her.
    - Drag her out of her bed.
    - Bring her to a party.
    - Get her drunk.
    - Beat and talk some sense into her.

    Teach her the value of things, especially life itself. Sometimes, you have to be hard on people and strip them of things to make them appreciate what they got.

    She sounds infuriating.
    Lol. She doesn’t drink and rarely goes to parties because she’s Delta and I don’t think beating her would have the desired effect. But thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I agree with @lkdhf qkb. I think she sounds like an e4, but I do think it's very possible she's an EII. A very immature EII.

    I don't think there's anything you can do to help her, quite frankly. Lots of people are helping her now, and it's not having the effect that you would like to see.

    My feeling is that she hasn't reached the point yet where she sees the abyss. Where she discovers that no one is going to bail her out, so she'd better get her ass in gear and work at doing something with her life. Until that happens, she's just going to take advantage of anyone who is willing to support her in her bad habits.

    Now, having said that, do you really think she's going to become a sex slave of some thousandaire in the woods?
    I mean, a thousand dollars isn't that much money.
    She’s really naive in certain ways. I feel she would be easily lured into a shed or car trunk or something. I was being hyperbolic, but she lacks common sense to a degree unusual even for a young intuitive type and I’m really concerned she’ll be badly taken advantage of once she leaves her parents’ house.

    As for the rest of your advice, that’s what I’m afraid of. I’m just looking for any other ways to get through to her, because I don’t want to see her fall so hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    What you describe is more unhealthy enneagram 4 sp-last behaviour than linked to any sociotype(even if I'd guess she's some NF). Her behaviour is fuelled by a deep inferiority complex/self-esteem issues, and all her pipe dreams/spending habits are just overcompensation/coping mechanisms. The problem, of course, is that her pursuit of the fulfillment of her whims only serves to perpetuate her feelings of deficiency. As she doesn't really achieve anything right now, it lowers her self-esteem even more. I know this dynamic since I have an enneagram 4 wing.

    If you want to help her, you need to find a way to make her understand that she needs to love herself as she is. That her moodiness is ruining her own life right now. She needs to learn to accept and appreciate what she has. Only if you get her to understand will she become less irrational. If you point out her lack of responsability straight away, she'll only play the victim more and reject any advice.
    Thank you very much for your advice. What you say rings true. I’ll think on this.

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    @FreelancePoliceman, I think @Subteigh was right when he said he thought the girl would be a project and in order for you to do any good, you'd have to commit to her for a long time. A very long time.

    I've noticed that you often seem to have the same impulses that I do, but for completely different reasons. In a case like this, if I knew her personally, I might feel a need to "rescue" her. Maybe she'd be forever grateful to me, or maybe not, but in either case I could walk away knowing that I had done the right thing, which would make me feel better.

    I recognize this impulse in me. I see it too often rising up with many of the troubled people I work with, and when I feel this way, I now try to step away from the bus. Not my fight.

    People ask me, if I like kids so much, why don't I adopt? The truth is that I would have no problem committing long term to my genetic offspring, but I for sure don't want to raise the kids of some fuckwad who knocked a girl up and split. I don't feel as if those genes should be rewarded. This isn't a particularly flattering fact about me, but it's how I feel and I know it. As a result, I don't start something that I'm not going to commit to 100%. I don't try to rescue people anymore.

    So personally, I think that girl is a huge project with no assurance that it's ever going to turn out well. In fact, from what you've said about her parents, I'd say she might be facing some very strong headwinds. But some people do face headwinds and they do find a way to prosper. But they also have to want to succeed. I hope she's one of them.

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    From types point you should know what can be said. If the type is correct.
    Ego region is where occupations and education should be tried to have the most chance to keep the interest. Good IR with someone who'll assist on a occupation is useful.
    General emotional state can be improved with good IR friendship and alike. This arises an interest to try something new in the life, ways to express own possibilities and views.

    In case her behavior is negative and not common, it's possibly she has general emotional/motivational problem. Psychology consultation may be tried. There can be free ones.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Her parents don’t give a shit. They don’t want to talk with their children any more than they have to, and have mental and personal problems of their own. They’re also severe alcoholics. Whenever I see them they’re drunk out of their minds, or if they haven’t begun drinking yet that day, bitter misanthropes. In the latter state they’re unwilling to talk to her and in the former they’re incapable of it. Finally, her father acts the same way with money so I’m not sure what he’d even say to her about her habits, and her mother supports everything she does and thinks she’s perfect.

    I don’t think there’s anything I can do that would have even the effect of making things worse, unfortunately. But thanks for the advice.

    Re. her being an EII, she’s just very very immature. I haven’t really illustrated her entire personality. She’s creative, is attracted to the unusual in the way Ne egos generally are (and often manifests it through her art), and — well, it’s difficult for me to explain how Fi manifests, but you’ll probably just have to take my word for it.
    So her parents are severe alcoholics with personal problems but you're blaming her for trying to cope the best way she can?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @FreelancePoliceman, I think @Subteigh was right when he said he thought the girl would be a project and in order for you to do any good, you'd have to commit to her for a long time. A very long time.
    I’m not sure what committing would look like. I don’t mind making time for her. She certainly wouldn’t like me to say this but she and her brother are like siblings to me. I’d do almost anything for them. But I’m not sure I can do anything in the first place.

    I've noticed that you often seem to have the same impulses that I do, but for completely different reasons. In a case like this, if I knew her personally, I might feel a need to "rescue" her. Maybe she'd be forever grateful to me, or maybe not, but in either case I could walk away knowing that I had done the right thing, which would make me feel better.

    I recognize this impulse in me. I see it too often rising up with many of the troubled people I work with, and when I feel this way, I now try to step away from the bus. Not my fight.
    Like I said, I feel responsible for her in a way. Partly because I’m one of the only people she knows who feels a sense of responsibility at all. She doesn’t really have anyone in her life who cares for her: her parents don’t (paying for her college notwithstanding — she went hungry as a child because her parents preferred to buy cigarettes, alcohol, and lottery tickets than feed their children), her siblings don’t and are mostly awful people, and the types of friends she surrounds herself with are morons even dumber than she is. I don’t want to feel like I’m abandoning her. She’s got no one, and even if she matures by hitting rock-bottom, I don’t trust her not to do stupid things without someone telling her not to.

    I realize that I don’t have much chance of changing anything. But I also don’t want to be just another person who goes about uninterested and uninvested in anyone but themselves. That’s morally reprehensible to me. I believe strongly that it’s important to create and invest yourself in social bonds. Letting someone fail alone shouldn’t ever be an choice but the only thing left to do when you have none. So I want to make sure I’m considering all the possibilities before I just wash my hands and say “oh well, too bad about her.”

    People ask me, if I like kids so much, why don't I adopt? The truth is that I would have no problem committing long term to my genetic offspring, but I for sure don't want to raise the kids of some fuckwad who knocked a girl up and split. I don't feel as if those genes should be rewarded. This isn't a particularly flattering fact about me, but it's how I feel and I know it. As a result, I don't start something that I'm not going to commit to 100%. I don't try to rescue people anymore.
    I’m younger and not as experienced in relationships, but I don’t think I would have any problem adopting or raising someone else’s child, though I would want kids of my own. As I said, it’s important to do what you can for others. You can’t do everything for everyone, but if you have friends or family you are obligated to them. That’s how I think.

    After I broke up with my ex I gave her a large amount of money when some emergencies came up. We didn’t leave on the best of terms but I had money and she needed it. It doesn’t matter how you feel about someone else; you’re still obligated toward them by virtue of knowing them well and being human.

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    Try approaching her without being motivated by your idea of what her life should look like. This usually results in a less fearful approach. You can use the work of Byron Katie for that or any other inquiry technique I guess. If you do this enough you will see that she is you. Maybe you will start levitating too. Post pics.

    People are sometimes better off seeing a therapist because a therapist (ideally) knows how to not get triggered by the narrative of a client. I think this is what to 'hold space' for someone means. Parents tend to fuck up because they see themselves in others/their kids and they don't like what they see.

    I can give u the Law of attraction solution too but that will be an extra dollar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    So her parents are severe alcoholics with personal problems but you're blaming her for trying to cope the best way she can?
    Lol. This is why I didn’t like ethics in college. You can say every single decision a person makes depended on their childhood or you can say people are 100% responsible for every choice they’ve ever made but neither leads you anywhere productive. Yeah, she’s had a difficult upbringing. She also does a lot that angers me and which I think she should bear some blame of her own for. She’s 19; she’s not a child. But if you think I should feel differently feel free to weigh in.

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    that's alright I like the way it burnz DrDonkeyBallz's Avatar
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    Just confront her and tell her she's being a dumb brat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Just confront her and tell her she's being a dumb brat.
    I’ve seen that play out. If it’s done with any steel she gets angry and tells the person to fuck off. If it’s dispassionate she laughs as if it’s a joke and says “yeah...I know”, with an attitude like “I know I’m just a kid, but I’ll grow up one day.” I think any approach likely to get through to her would involve a long conversation.

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    that's alright I like the way it burnz DrDonkeyBallz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I’ve seen that play out. If it’s done with any steel she gets angry and tells the person to fuck off. If it’s dispassionate she laughs as if it’s a joke and says “yeah...I know”, with an attitude like “I know I’m just a kid, but I’ll grow up one day.” I think any approach likely to get through to her would involve a long conversation.
    I can tell that you care about her

    Mentoring and having an older brother/sister figure growing up helps a lot, not sure if you're into something like that, but maybe you could start a dynamic like that. We tend to open up our hearts to those we look up to/have a good relationship with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Lol. This is why I didn’t like ethics in college. You can say every single decision a person makes depended on their childhood or you can say people are 100% responsible for every choice they’ve ever made but neither leads you anywhere productive. Yeah, she’s had a difficult upbringing. She also does a lot that angers me and which I think she should bear some blame of her own for. She’s 19; she’s not a child. But if you think I should feel differently feel free to weigh in.
    I didn't like ethics in intro to philosophy -- which was more of an ethics class than an intro to philosophy when I took it. Felt like indoctrination to me in the professor's pet morality. According to some, it's arbitrary anyway. I try to focus more on what's expedient than ideas of right and wrong. You don't have to incriminate a person to get them to see reason.

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    I doubt that the type of most people at 19 years old can be accurately determined. Many dual-like characteristics will likely be at the surface at that age, which will also confound type determination. As well, communication with any teenager or immature adult can be difficult at best so give her approximately six years and try again.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I don't think ever in her life she's admitted responsibility for anything.
    Well that's the problem ain't it.

    Usually people who don't admit responsibility find someone else to support them financially, and ultimately to take responsibility for their own actions. Your fear she may end up on meth is founded, I've seen this life scenario play itself out before, in unhealthy young folks, especially young women. It is escapism and avoiding the weight of her own existence. She finds solace in the fact that she will probably always find someone else to take responsibility for her life, and if things fail, she can come home to mom and dad saying it's not her fault, anyways, because another person controlled her life, supposedly.

    I don't think her type is EII, based on this description at least. I'd say IEI, escapism, avoiding responsibility, constantly wasting money on useless stuff to comfort oneself, not liking to work, is consistent with Te polr. Of course it's even more so given the fact that adolescence isn't exactly an age of reason; but I'd say it's also consistent with IEI. The reason I say this is because if you know someone's type, it is easier to find an approach to that person.

    I think the solution is: she needs to have her luxuries taken away. No more free stuff. She needs to earn everything she spends. No more giving her money except on special occasions like birthdays or xmas. This is of course what her parents should do. But since they are apparently not taking action, you can't really do it for them, since that is not your role. Perhaps you could talk to her parents about your concerns? Just like you did on this forum, explain it thoroughly. I got a very clear picture of the situation from your pov by reading your post. Have you spoken to her family? At least to your friend? Do they know where you stand? etc. I think the solution will have to come from her family, so it will have to be a collective one.
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I think the solution is: she needs to have her luxuries taken away. No more free stuff. She needs to earn everything she spends. No more giving her money except on special occasions like birthdays or xmas. This is of course what her parents should do. But since they are apparently not taking action, you can't really do it for them, since that is not your role. Perhaps you could talk to her parents about your concerns? Just like you did on this forum, explain it thoroughly. I got a very clear picture of the situation from your pov by reading your post. Have you spoken to her family? At least to your friend? Do they know where you stand? etc. I think the solution will have to come from her family, so it will have to be a collective one.
    I agree that work would be the ideal way to bring her back on track. However, since she seems pretty entitled and immature, taking away all her things at once could actually trigger what we wanted to avoid: her getting stuck even more in a victim mentality, running away and getting hooked on drugs at some "friends" place.

    Talking to her parents seems the way to go. They might be in denial that they are enabling her behaviour though, which could make for a complicated discussion.

    EDIT: I just read the posts about her parents, this is some family therapy level of a problem. The way you're describing it, her whole social environment is actually an obstacle to her becoming a responsible adult. Honestly, I think that's too much to handle for you. I understand that you want to save her, but taking responsability for her life is not your role. Maybe the best option is to let her learn from her mistakes. You could support her though by listening to her(something her parents can't) and maybe helping her to understand her own situation.
    Last edited by lkdhf qkb; 01-07-2021 at 03:20 PM. Reason: read posts above
    I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
    Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb

    Life is soup. I'm fork


  30. #30
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    Sounds like my IEI sister. I think she has never taken hard drugs.

    But I'd say that be aware how much more psychiatry can victimize her. Very handy scapegoat.

    If living conditions turn bad for her she might cling on to somebody else.

    I must say that this is normal human behaviour and being at home can be OK until gets too overwhelming. IEI seems to have predisposition to dependent personality style which is also normal until...
    Last edited by Chin Diaper 007; 01-07-2021 at 03:29 PM.
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    Sounds like Immature and depressed IEI with alpha/delta parents.

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    You can't save people they have to save themselves

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