Explain relations of benefit like I’m 5 years old

[Djinn]

Bring out your finger paints and crayons because boy oh boy am I developmentally challenged!

Explain how benefit IR works and please include personal experiences. I keep forgetting how this works and I don’t have the brain power or desire to piece it all back together in my head again time after time.

Don’t use any of that socionics terminology crap! I wanna see choo choo train and princess metaphors!

Much appreciated
Sincerely,
Iggy Noramus


P.S. I take my education very seriously. Please respect that.

[Rebelondeck]

Information processing could be augmented if one listened to the benefactor's thinking. This doesn't mean that one would do what the benefactor suggested; as a matter of fact, one may more often than not do the exact opposite. The perspective may simply help with clarity in making one's own decisions and the actual advice may point out what one wouldn't want to do. Living or working closely with one's benefactor will demonstrate how different they prioritize and think, and hence, how difficult finding common ground could be - but they do give a very different perspective that might be helpful.

a.k.a. I/O

[Lolita]

Benefactors see their beneficiary as boring and uninteresting while the beneficiary wants to please the benefactor, looks up to them. There’s generally some discomfort and unease between them.

[mr drapetomaniac]

Yeah, I'm super jealous of Director Abbies's subtitute goat milking skills.

[Asleep]

I am really fascinated by my benefactor (IEI). spend a lot of my life just enjoying their artistic creations. Ni+Fe is probably my favorite functional combo. outside of the internet, we don't really have a lot to say to each other, though. I get along with SLI too, but I just find them very boring (low Ne) and detail-oriented. they can't predict anything because of their role Ni so I'm constantly just rolling my eyes when they try to predict trends. I don't really argue with them and we get along fine on a shallow level, sometimes our interactions are even enjoyable. a lot of my coworkers are SLI, but I never want to spend time with them outside of work.

[megedy]

SEI are pleasant enough people but they're not very interesting to talk to for long periods of time, especially one on one. It's a weird dynamic where they're very complementary towards me & it feels hard to reciprocate since I don't feel the same way toward them at all.

I haven't met a lot of ILI in person but when I do it's usually been through work, and they always have a way of explaining things that makes complete sense to me that's very appreciated. Almost like I really want them to be a mentor but I can kind of suss out that they're not really into that at all.

[Tarnished]

I (ILI) always feel ISTj's knowledge about S activities is amazing (sport, gym, martial arts, meditation...), but usually I can find a way to learn from them from far away without knowing them in person, so I won't bother them and they won't bother me.

I feel EIIs and I have the same opinion about many things, but they are not fun enough to me to hang around with

[mr drapetomaniac]

I remember one LSE approaching me but then due to lack of Fi it fall flat and she seemed pissed. She found me interesting because I managed to negotiate both of us out from a sticky spot due to one individual being stubborn and her steamroller tendecies didn't work.

I suppose EIE 's build up similarish unattractive Si walls.
So I suppose in personal life it is a lot like building invisible fences while in work/common interests it works.

[Djinn]

Hmmm, needs more choo choo trains and crayons, but it’s sinking in.

I have only ever known 3 ESI and not a single LII unfortunately. With ESI I have always initially been enamored by them and excited to get to know them better, but I always felt like a side-kick around them. Online I have liked LII that I come across, but I guess there is always a sense that I don’t need their help or something. So it seems to me that the dynamics of benefit relations are based on pseudo-confidence of the hidden agenda. ?

[megedy]

Hahaha, okay, here's a go at the princess ELI5 version with minimal socionics speak (I'm basically pulling these types out of thin air for the sake of argument as I haven't seen the movies in forever):

Aurora (SEI) thinks Belle (EII) is really interesting. She likes that Belle's "head's up some clouds" and that she's a "strange and funny girl" who isn't afraid of not fitting in. Those are all the qualities Aurora's drawn to in people. But Belle thinks Aurora is...sort of the kind of person who changes herself (or at least her dress?) just to fit in with who she's with, and while Aurora might be great at knowing where to get the best magical birthday cakes, Belle already knows a decent baker so it's kind of whatever. Aurora's alright, but Belle's not exactly going to be best friends with her.

Meanwhile, Belle (EII) thinks Elsa (ILI) is super insightful. She loves hearing Elsa talk about how she built her ice castle to be alone in the mountains. Belle wants to know more, and she hopes Elsa thinks she's interesting, too. Belle might start asking questions about how Elsa rules her kingdom, what the most efficient way to do that is. Elsa answers the questions Belle has but feels like Belle is kind of boring. Belle's not bringing anything to the table that Elsa hasn't already figured out (or pretty much feels like she's got figured out, anyways).

& the cycle continues...

Elsa thinks Mulan (LSI) is a badass but Mulan thinks Elsa needs to get out more? Mulan thinks Aurora brightens her day but Aurora thinks Mulan is too rough around the edges or something idk.

All these princesses could still be friends with each other but it's going to be one sided & they'll never be BFFs and rule their kingdoms together.

(this was terrible someone please help me...)

[Djinn]

Hahaha, okay, here's a go at the princess ELI5 version with minimal socionics speak (I'm basically pulling these types out of thin air for the sake of argument as I haven't seen the movies in forever):

Aurora (SEI) thinks Belle (EII) is really interesting. She likes that Belle's "head's up some clouds" and that she's a "strange and funny girl" who isn't afraid of not fitting in. Those are all the qualities Aurora's drawn to in people. But Belle thinks Aurora is...sort of the kind of person who changes herself (or at least her dress?) just to fit in with who she's with, and while Aurora might be great at knowing where to get the best magical birthday cakes, Belle already knows a decent baker so it's kind of whatever. Aurora's alright, but Belle's not exactly going to be best friends with her.

Meanwhile, Belle (EII) thinks Elsa (ILI) is super insightful. She loves hearing Elsa talk about how she built her ice castle to be alone in the mountains. Belle wants to know more, and she hopes Elsa thinks she's interesting, too. Belle might start asking questions about how Elsa rules her kingdom, what the most efficient way to do that is. Elsa answers the questions Belle has but feels like Belle is kind of boring. Belle's not bringing anything to the table that Elsa hasn't already figured out (or pretty much feels like she's got figured out, anyways).

& the cycle continues...

Elsa thinks Mulan (LSI) is a badass but Mulan thinks Elsa needs to get out more? Mulan thinks Aurora brightens her day but Aurora thinks Mulan is too rough around the edges or something idk.

All these princesses could still be friends with each other but it's going to be one sided & they'll never be BFFs and rule their kingdoms together.

(this was terrible someone please help me...)

Bravo!!

Hmmm, I think that actually was pretty helpful....
....maybe that says bad things about me....

Oh, whatever! You are my favorite EII now! thank you!

[megedy]

Bravo!!

Hmmm, I think that actually was pretty helpful....
....maybe that says bad things about me....

Oh, whatever! You are my favorite EII now! thank you!

Haha, glad I could help! I think too much jargon can sometimes get in the way of stuff that feels more intuitive once you see examples of it, so it's not saying anything bad about you lol.

But yeah, psuedo-confidence of the hidden agenda is a big part of it. The beneficiary immediately spots a problem in the benefactor's valued, 2d sphere, reaches out with some 4d "oh but I could help you with that!" leading, but uses the benefactor's equally 3d but ignored function to deliver it. Which results in a dismissal of "well I'm not dealing with it THAT way lol".

Meanwhile the beneficiary gets some help with their 1D suggestive through the benefactor's 3d creative, while ignoring the fact that it's coming from an equally strong 4d space. "Oh, the problem itself was obvious, but your solution is great!"

[Tarnished]

SEI are pleasant enough people but they're not very interesting to talk to for long periods of time, especially one on one. It's a weird dynamic where they're very complementary towards me & it feels hard to reciprocate since I don't feel the same way toward them at all.

I haven't met a lot of ILI in person but when I do it's usually been through work, and they always have a way of explaining things that makes complete sense to me that's very appreciated. Almost like I really want them to be a mentor but I can kind of suss out that they're not really into that at all.

My EII friend always has a problem when she understand something, but she can't just... put it to words clearly. Usually I get what she want to say immediately, and repeat it with a more "make sense" version lol

[megedy]

My EII friend always has a problem when she understand something, but she can't just... put it to words clearly. Usually I get what she want to say immediately, and repeat it with a more "make sense" version lol

Hahaha I love that from Te egos. When there's not one around I overcompensate by talking like Mojo Jojo and just repeating the same idea over and over again in different terms until someone stops me lol.

[Rebelondeck]

Benefactors see their beneficiary as boring and uninteresting while the beneficiary wants to please the benefactor, looks up to them. There’s generally some discomfort and unease between them.

I have not observed this; I certainly have never met a benefactor that I looked up to. Beneficiary perceptions and rationalizations simply aren't helpful to the benefactor's cognitive processes; both partners' thinking processes don't equally benefit in this one-way relationship. I've seen many examples where benefactors were envious of beneficiaries and wished they were in their shoes. There could be other factors outside of type that could offset the imbalance; however, unease seems to grow when they start having to depend on one another.

a.k.a. I/O

[WVBRY]

Almost like I really want them to be a mentor but I can kind of suss out that they're not really into that at all.

Well, personally, it's not that I don't like mentoring or teaching, I love it. I like the prestige that comes with being this shaman that speaks wisdom that helps people and that they listen to, so to speak. Or a teacher that imparts knowledge to his students to help them gain power. etc

In my experience, the relationship with EII is usually decent. Though I find it a bit boring (ie not enough stimulation), which is what I experience with IJs in general.

[Computer Loser]

Bring out your finger paints and crayons because boy oh boy am I developmentally challenged!

Explain how benefit IR works and please include personal experiences. I keep forgetting how this works and I don’t have the brain power or desire to piece it all back together in my head again time after time.

Don’t use any of that socionics terminology crap! I wanna see choo choo train and princess metaphors!

Much appreciated
Sincerely,
Iggy Noramus


P.S. I take my education very seriously. Please respect that.

It's basically a one-sided relation.

The benefactor's Lead (strong, valued) recognizes the beneficiaries Demo (strong, unvalued), so they appear familiar to each other.

However, when they interact

The benefactor uses his creative to help the beneficiaries dual-seeking, but the beneficiary cannot provide the same back. In addition, the benefactor would rather use his lead, not his creative, causing strain.

Over time, the beneficiary gets needy, asking for their dual-seeking to be fulfilled, but the benefactor has to exert himself with nothing in return, forming a one-sided relation.

[Computer Loser]

idk, i feel like my beneficiaries tend to essentially reject my viewpoints even if they latch onto something in it. It's not the worst relation but it becomes more irritating over time. it takes me a while to realize the SEI actually never knew me this whole time because they have been glossing over my Fi-Te statements.

Its because your beneficiaries want the real Ne, not the malleable, bootleg version of your Ne creative

Your beneficiary also thinks he can help you, and he tries, but fails to throw Te at you because it's his PoLR. Thus it is actually you that is tone-deaf to him.

How ironic.

Thus, he will eventually break free from your Fi-Te chains, and run away from your tyranny to find his dual, where you drop tears in your floating Fi-castle with highwalls, wondering where it all went wrong

[Lolita]

I have not observed this; I certainly have never met a benefactor that I looked up to. Beneficiary perceptions and rationalizations simply aren't helpful to the benefactor's cognitive processes; both partners' thinking processes don't equally benefit in this one-way relationship. I've seen many examples where benefactors were envious of beneficiaries and wished they were in their shoes. There could be other factors outside of type that could offset the imbalance; however, unease seems to grow when they start having to depend on one another.

a.k.a. I/O

The traditional rule is that the benefactor is in the greater psychological position, which is why the beneficiary “looks up” to the benefactor, but it’s not a hard rule. I described the general psychological relation so it doesn’t have to be conscious to be valid. The point is, the beneficiary’s demo is the same as the benefactor’s lead so they’re both in strong standing of the same function. The thing is, the beneficiary doesn’t value their demo so they view that function as “easy, nothing to it” while the benefactor knows how utilize that function to the fullest extent so they feel compelled to teach the beneficiary “how to improve” on that function. As with all relations, it’s a two way street so there’s often a reverse benefit where the beneficiary will teach the benefactor how to improve their mob. This levels the playing field a bit.

So while I’ve historically ranted against EIE and can’t stand that they’re histrionic, flirtatious psychos (I do have EIE friends irl which is how I know they’re histrionic psychos), I’ve also unconsciously known they’re better at manipulating the emotional atmosphere. They do teach me how to “flirt” better. Better from zero as I don’t flirt, I find that shit demeaning. I know now the reason why they flirt and seduce to get their way is because they’re weak with Se and that’s how they get access to Se. Although I look down upon that sort of thing and the people who do that, they look up to me for Se reasons and I’ve helped them in that department.

[Lolita]

It's basically a one-sided relation.

The benefactor's Lead (strong, valued) recognizes the beneficiaries Demo (strong, unvalued), so they appear familiar to each other.

However, when they interact

The benefactor uses his creative to help the beneficiaries dual-seeking, but the beneficiary cannot provide the same back. In addition, the benefactor would rather use his lead, not his creative, causing strain.

Over time, the beneficiary gets needy, asking for their dual-seeking to be fulfilled, but the benefactor has to exert himself with nothing in return, forming a one-sided relation.

Traditionally it’s one-sided but the beneficiary’s lead is the same as the benefactor’s mob and that levels the playing field. Mob may believe it’s strong but it can recognize that function is stronger for someone with that base which flips the script (even if temporarily). Relationships are not one-sided unless we’re talking about unrequited love or erotomania. It’s easy for supervision, benefit, etc. to get reversed.

[Computer Loser]

Traditionally it’s one-sided but the beneficiary’s lead is the same as the benefactor’s mob and that levels the playing field. Mob may believe it’s strong but it can recognize that function is stronger for someone with that base which flips the script (even if temporarily). Relationships are not one-sided unless we’re talking about unrequited love or erotomania. It’s easy for supervision, benefit, etc. to get reversed.

That's interesting. I had the impression the beneficiary only threw scraps at the benefactor

On a side note all my relationships with Deltas have felt one-sided. But then again perhaps they feel the same way

[Lolita]

That's interesting. I had the impression the beneficiary only threw scraps at the benefactor

On a side note all my relationships with Deltas have felt one-sided. But then again perhaps they feel the same way

Relations isn’t a hard rule. Take it as a general guideline, because it’s vastly dependent upon the individual. Some benefactors will throw scraps or not at all, but some could take a liking to you and teach you how to focus better with the demo (which is the benefit). Then it also depends upon the beneficiary if they wanna listen to the benefactor. Beneficiaries can turn it around and make their benefactor “need” them. So although the psychological set up is more in favor of the benefactor and supervisor, it doesn’t mean it can’t be flipped on them. Irl there’s more relationships that have conflicts which is what keeps it going rather than be “peaceful” and stagnant.

[Computer Loser]

Relations isn’t a hard rule. Take it as a general guideline, because it’s vastly dependent upon the individual. Some benefactors will throw scraps or not at all, but some could take a liking to you and teach you how to focus better with the demo (which is the benefit). Then it also depends upon the beneficiary if they wanna listen to the benefactor. Beneficiaries can turn it around and make their benefactor “need” them. So although the psychological set up is more in favor of the benefactor and supervisor, it doesn’t mean it can’t be flipped on them. Irl there’s more relationships that have conflicts which is what keeps it going rather than be “peaceful” and stagnant.

Yes, my benefactor is an SEI, who also happens to be my boss. It's a weird dynamic. I know people here don't like associating Si with food, but I think the SEI boss provides me Fe by telling me jokes and bringing food, providing comfort in that way. Sometimes, I get a sense that he's getting nothing back IM-wise, but in return I try to hustle and help him understand that I'm indispensable. Hopefully that will stack the odds in my favor, I'm not one to kiss-ass to move up the career ladder.

[Lolita]

Yes, my benefactor is an SEI, who also happens to be my boss. It's a weird dynamic. I know people here don't like associating Si with food, but I think the SEI boss provides me Fe by telling me jokes and bringing food, providing comfort in that way. Sometimes, I get a sense that he's getting nothing back IM-wise, but in return I try to hustle and help him understand that I'm indispensable. Hopefully that will stack the odds in my favor, I'm not one to kiss-ass to move up the career ladder.

Not really weird cuz employer-employee benefit relation makes sense. But LOL Fe egos should never be in any position of power. You literally have to kiss their stupid Fe image to make them feel like they’re the shit when they’re technically incompetent. You have to throw a lot of Ti at your boss to make them feel like “This guy has a lot of good ideas to make us stable!!” They’ll eat that up.

[Tarnished]

I rarely need help with the mobilizing function. It may not be strong but I think it ok, just leave it be. Fi lead user make me feel like their Fi is so heavy and serious. (Se Ne is more fun lol)

Some ExFPs I know also have the same feeling toward Te lead. They don't want to be force to follow exactly to the method ExTJs give them. They can listen to Te advice, but they don't want to be force about it. They don't want to be "lead" by other's Te

I think the mob function (of other people) is the function we shouldn't touch too much.

Leading function and mobilizing function seem like the functions that one person want to make the choice by themself, not by other.

[Lolita]

I rarely need help with the mobilizing function. It may not be strong but I think it ok, just leave it be. Fi lead user make me feel like their Fi is so heavy and serious. (Se Ne is more fun lol)

Some ExFPs I know also have the same feeling toward Te lead. They don't want to be force to follow exactly to the method ExTJs give them. They can listen to Te advice, but they don't want to be force about it. They don't want to be "lead" by other's Te

I think the mob function (of other people) is the function we shouldn't touch too much.

Leading function and mobilizing function seem like the functions that one person want to make the choice by themself, not by other.

As a general thing, shouldn’t touch other people’s lead function because that’s the area of mastery. But with HA and suggestive, it’s fine since they’re weak. The thing is, if someone is over bloated with confidence with their Mob (happens a lot since a lot of people commonly self type as their activator), it can actually piss off the people with that lead function since it’s being used wrong and then the beneficiary can turn the tables and it’ll get ugly if the benefactor don’t listen to the beneficiary’s lead. With Se egos, it’s easy for stuff to get ugly and full of conflict so it could be more noticeable.

[Rebelondeck]

The traditional rule is that the benefactor is in the greater psychological position,......

I've had several of my benefactor types in my office for not doing their job properly so I doubt that they had the greater psychological advantage. The concept of "greater psychological position" isn't very meaningful when describing the fundamental interactions of data processing systems.

a.k.a. I/O

[Djinn]

Lol, you guys sure have a funny way of talking to 5 year olds...

[Sol]

To understand IR needs to understand complementary functions and to know functional model of types. Nothing else.
General descriptions of IR are a popular approximation. Same as general descriptions of types.

[Lolita]

I've had several of my benefactor types in my office for not doing their job properly so I doubt that they had the greater psychological advantage. The concept of "greater psychological position" isn't very meaningful when describing the fundamental interactions of data processing systems.

a.k.a. I/O

1. Just because the benefactor is generally described as being in a higher psychology position, it doesn’t mean that they are all the time. Situations vary.
2. They may or may not be your benefactor.
3. Psychological relations aka ITR are not hard rules, but guidelines and get applied differently depending on the parties involved and their individual development with their functions.

I’ve explained as to why for all of these factors multiple times before. So just because you’ve deemed someone as your benefactor and you’re at a stronger psychological position than they are, it doesn’t mean the theory of the ITR benefactor relation is invalid.

[Lolita]

Lol, you guys sure have a funny way of talking to 5 year olds...

I was straight to the point. Blame it on the 4D Ti types since they’re pedantic. I don’t mind Ti, but that’s the majority of people on this forum.

[Tarnished]

I was straight to the point. Blame it on the 4D Ti types since they’re pedantic. I don’t mind Ti, but that’s the majority of people on this forum.

Your are a SEE ??? @@

[persimmonism]

It's basically a one-sided relation.


The benefactor's Lead (strong, valued) recognizes the beneficiaries Demo (strong, unvalued), so they appear familiar to each other.


However, when they interact


The benefactor uses his creative to help the beneficiaries dual-seeking, but the beneficiary cannot provide the same back. In addition, the benefactor would rather use his lead, not his creative, causing strain.


Over time, the beneficiary gets needy, asking for their dual-seeking to be fulfilled, but the benefactor has to exert himself with nothing in return, forming a one-sided relation.

^ this and also the beneficiary can provide for the benefactor's HA with their base (e.g. LII Ti base for IEI Ti HA), but after a while it will feel like too much for the benefactor since they don't need/feel that they need that much support for their HA.


For example
-when LIIs help my Ti I certainly appreciate it, but *from my POV* after a certain point they start to overdo it. since they are equipped to cover for their dual's weaker suggestive Ti, whereas I only need the support of my dual's Ti creative.
-when I help ESIs in Ni, i often feel that they have enough of and are ready to move on when it's too soon. From my POV it's like they're good to go after only a half-baked Ni job.

[Bethanyclaire]

I’ve been thinking about which type I feel most similar to. If I had to pick one. I think it is LII. I don’t know that I’d necessarily get on with them (have only known a couple) but there is something about them that makes me feel we have similar anxieties and woes and attitudes towards life. Maybe this is more as I get older.

[Rebelondeck]

Explaining the two words to a 5 year old: My benefactors would bring different coloured crayons to the table when I'm colouring and I may sometimes chose to use them; but, because my beneficiaries are terrible at colouring, they will likely bring useless finger paints.

a.k.a. I/O

[Tarnished]

^ this and also the beneficiary can provide for the benefactor's HA with their base (e.g. LII Ti base for IEI Ti HA), but after a while it will feel like too much for the benefactor since they don't need/feel that they need that much support for their HA.


For example
-when LIIs help my Ti I certainly appreciate it, but *from my POV* after a certain point they start to overdo it. since they are equipped to cover for their dual's weaker suggestive Ti, whereas I only need the support of my dual's Ti creative.
-when I help ESIs in Ni, i often feel that they have enough of and are ready to move on when it's too soon. From my POV it's like they're good to go after only a half-baked Ni job.

Maybe there is another reason. Model B has (+) and (-) in functions. So the IEIs have Ti+/Te- and the LIIs have Ti-/Te+. And maybe you just don't need much of their Ti-/Te+.

[YXPR]

The beneficiary tends to idolize the benefactor a little bit. The benefactor enjoys hanging out with the beneficiary because it just feels easy.
But at some point the beneficiary starts to feel bad because they feel like the benefactor expects something of them that unfortunately they are unable to give . This can lead them to doubt themselves a little too much and as a consequence to dislike being in the benefactor's presence. On their end, the benefactor has no clue what's happening because in their mind they aren't asking for anything special .

All of this can be dealt with to some extend through good communication (which shouldn't be too hard since the two protagonists have a lot in common). But the beneficiary might always feel like they need to do more than they are able to, and the benefactor might always see the beneficiary as just a cute and endearing person that tries to do their best.

[Scarlett]

I get along really well with both my benefactor and beneficiary.

But what I notice is, the beneficiary always listens to benefactor, the term idolising is true. In the beneficiary's eyes, the benefactor is amazing in every way, and they secretly pay attention.
If you notice someone who always pay attention and do what you say even though you don't really ask them to do it, it's your beneficiary.
You've been a good benefactor and he/she's a good beneficiary.

It works the other way around.

[Bethanyclaire]

I don’t tend to become friends with either of these types although I have enjoyed their company as part of larger groups of friends. I had a good isfj friend at uni but when we left uni the relationship fizzled a bit. I remember feeling a bit like I had to make all the effort with convo and ideas for what to do..but after seeing her I would sort of think but why didn’t I just stop making all the effort and let her speak haha. So exactly what people have described above..I have also had isfj managers who I admired but found their advice exhausting and confusing after a while..

Atm I’m in a writing group and two of the people are entj and isfj. It’s a really nice opportunity to interact with them on a more intellectual level and I think we are able to all understand each other better through sharing our art and discussing our work. The other day it was just the three of us and pretty special being with them two as a dual pair and me reading my little poem. The isfj seemed totally moved and inspired by it and this really made me happy of course haha

[marooned]

Beneficiary takes your creative fct beyond what it can give and gives little to nothing back...