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Thread: Secular arguments against abortion?

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    Default Secular arguments against abortion?

    Are there any arguments against abortion that don't boil down to religious doctrine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Are there any arguments against abortion that don't boil down to religious doctrine?
    Economical.
    "The society that separates it's scholars from it's warriors will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting by fools." ―Thucydides



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    Racial/cultural. Certain minority groups have a disproportionately higher rate of abortions than the majority white ethnicity, which could be said to work against their flourishing.

    The number one killer among African Americans is not heart disease or cancer, but abortions. About 12% of the American population is black, but they account for nearly 40% of all abortions. Other minority groups are increasing in size in America at a much quicker rate than the African American community.

    The CDC stated a few years ago that 616,074 African Americans are born every year, yet 458,500 additional babies will die from abortion. It's a big and controversial statement, but I've heard it called a self-imposed genocide.
    Last edited by Emily; 12-10-2020 at 09:20 PM. Reason: Added some info

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    Are there any secular arguments against murder? If you place no inherent value on human life then what do you place value on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Are there any secular arguments against murder? If you place no inherent value on human life then what do you place value on?
    Quality of company.
    "The society that separates it's scholars from it's warriors will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting by fools." ―Thucydides



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    In rare cases mb health or mb forthcoming miscarriage makes it less shameful (health issue for the non potential offspring).
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Are there any secular arguments against murder? If you place no inherent value on human life then what do you place value on?
    You (genuinely) believe that? That secular people don't value human life?
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    You (genuinely) believe that? That secular people don't value human life?
    They may or they may not. What's to stop them from destroying it without any qualms?

    If they merely value "quality of company" then anyone who is deemed "low quality" is fair game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    They may or they may not. What's to stop them from destroying it without any qualms?

    If they merely value "quality of company" then anyone who is deemed "low quality" is fair game.
    What about theists who believe that non-believers are worse than animals and deserve to be tortured for eternity in a way worse than anyone can imagine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    What about theists who believe that non-believers are worse than animals and deserve to be tortured for eternity in a way worse than anyone can imagine?
    That's only if they don't repent and come to belief within their lifetime. As long as they are alive they are to be respected like any person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    That's only if they don't repent and come to belief within their lifetime. As long as they are alive they are to be respected like any person.
    It says if they persist in their disbelief, they are worse than animals. For me, it is wrong to dehumanize a person on any occasion, there's no "only" about it. In any case, I don't see why a person should be punished for their beliefs.

    Also, to a Muslim a lifetime is of infinitely less period of time to their life after death - it is the part about eternal torture you should be attempting to defend. Supposedly Muslims will laugh on the Day of Judgment - how can they do that when their faith says that most people who have ever lived will be tortured for eternity?

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    I think primarily, I'm concerned about the psychological impact an abortion might have on the person having one, and it's not great to go round killing things generally. But the number of women, infants, and fetuses dying will probably be higher if abortion was illegal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    It says if they persist in their disbelief, they are worse than animals. For me, it is wrong to dehumanize a person on any occasion, there's no "only" about it. In any case, I don't see why a person should be punished for their beliefs.
    People are punished for their beliefs all the time. You think drunk driving is no big deal and then you get in a crash. You think wearing a mask is cumbersome and then get COVID and die. If we take precautions against these things we should certainly take precautions with respect to our afterlife.

    Also, to a Muslim a lifetime is of infinitely less period of time to their life after death - it is the part about eternal torture you should be attempting to defend. Supposedly Muslims will laugh on the Day of Judgment - how can they do that when their faith says that most people who have ever lived will be tortured for eternity?
    It's not clear that it does say that. Most people will go to the hellfire but for many it will be temporary.

    I don't have to defend anything to you, by the way. The bottom line is that we have a basis for morality, and you don't. If you don't want to "do the time" then don't do the crime (or pray that Allah has mercy on you).

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    People are punished for their beliefs all the time. You think drunk driving is no big deal and then you get in a crash. You think wearing a mask is cumbersome and then get COVID and die. If we take precautions against these things we should certainly take precautions with respect to our afterlife.
    Those are instances where people are punished for their actions, which are based on their beliefs. I don't think people should be punished for their actions either, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    It's not clear that it does say that. Most people will go to the hellfire but for many it will be temporary.
    Very well. It is certainly advertised as a punishment worse than anybody can imagine, which to me, is inherently disproportionate.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I don't have to defend anything to you, by the way.
    That may be true, but you were trying to make out that Islam was not so bad because individuals that are worse than animals are to be treated with respect while they are alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    The bottom line is that we have a basis for morality, and you don't. If you don't want to "do the time" then don't do the crime (or pray that Allah has mercy on you).
    The basis for my "morality", if such a thing exists, is my conscience. Are you implying that you do things contrary to your conscience - contrary to what your reason tells you is acceptable? If so, how do you know that you are following a morally acceptable being? How can you distinguish between Allah and Shaitan, if one is carrying out torture worse than anybody can imagine? If one of them told you to kill a child (as in the story of Abraham), how could you say that that being had a "basis for morality"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The basis for my "morality", if such a thing exists, is my conscience. Are you implying that you do things contrary to your conscience - contrary to what your reason tells you is acceptable? If so, how do you know that you are following a morally acceptable being? How can you distinguish between Allah and Shaitan, if one is carrying out torture worse than anybody can imagine? If one of them told you to kill a child (as in the story of Abraham), how could you say that that being had a "basis for morality"?

    The distinction is probably arbitrary. I believe most muslims are smugly satisfied that all non believers will burn anyway. Christians are like this too.
    "The society that separates it's scholars from it's warriors will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting by fools." ―Thucydides



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    Yes. That we shouldn’t make arbitrary decisions about when someone can be killed and when they can’t. We only allow abortion, when the mother’s life isn’t in danger, because of convenience rather than a principled understanding of when someone is old enough to be protected from murder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    The number one killer among African Americans is not heart disease or cancer, but abortions. About 12% of the American population is black, but they account for nearly 40% of all abortions. Other minority groups are increasing in size in America at a much quicker rate than the African American community.
    Banning abortion wouldn't actually help african americans prosper. What it actually does is raise the stakes of failure to prosper, by banning the means of dealing with said failure. Being forced to raise more unwanted babies would make those communities even poorer, which hurts their adults.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Those are instances where people are punished for their actions, which are based on their beliefs. I don't think people should be punished for their actions either, however.
    Really? So we should just let criminals do whatever they want? There has to be some kind of deterrent.

    The basis for my "morality", if such a thing exists, is my conscience. Are you implying that you do things contrary to your conscience - contrary to what your reason tells you is acceptable? If so, how do you know that you are following a morally acceptable being? How can you distinguish between Allah and Shaitan, if one is carrying out torture worse than anybody can imagine? If one of them told you to kill a child (as in the story of Abraham), how could you say that that being had a "basis for morality"?
    I use my conscience to evaluate things but I accept that it might be wrong in certain cases. In the end your conscience is just feelings, and feelings can be wrong - if they were right all the time then people wouldn't do things like murder, rape, etc. This is why we use the shari'ah to judge things, because Allah knows better than we do.

    And by the way, we don't believe that Allah told Abraham to kill his child. It was a metaphorical dream that he interpreted but Allah stopped him before he did it because it was a misinterpretation. That is why he said that he had fulfilled the dream before actually carrying it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Banning abortion wouldn't actually help african americans prosper. What it actually does is raise the stakes of failure to prosper, by banning the means of dealing with said failure. Being forced to raise more unwanted babies would make those communities even poorer, which hurts their adults.
    Agree up to a point. Banning abortion also wouldn't tackle the root issues of why there's a lack of prosperity or inequality in the first place.
    Last edited by Emily; 12-14-2020 at 04:45 AM.

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    It has been promoted as a "right" but it's rather a point in the agenda to control the poor and third world population as its a threat for the rich. Millions have been invested to promote an ideology and operate an industry to reduce the births of the unimportant and undesirable.

    National Security Study Memorandum 200: Implications of Worldwide Population Growth for U.S. Security and Overseas Interests (NSSM200) was completed on December 10, 1974 by the United States National Security Council under the direction of Henry Kissinger.

    It was adopted as official US policy by US President Gerald Ford in November 1975. It was classified for a while but was obtained by researchers in the early 1990s.


    Contents

    Findings


    The basic thesis of the memorandum was that population growth in the least developed countries (LDCs) is a concern to US national security, because it would tend to risk civil unrest and political instability in countries that had a high potential for economic development. The policy gives "paramount importance" to population control measures and the promotion of contraception among 13 populous countries to control rapid population growth which the US deems inimical to the socio-political and economic growth of these countries and to the national interests of the United States since the "U.S. economy will require large and increasing amounts of minerals from abroad" and the countries can produce destabilizing opposition forces against the US.

    It recommends that US leadership "influence national leaders" and that "improved world-wide support for population-related efforts should be sought through increased emphasis on mass media and other population education and motivation programs by the UN, USIA, and USAID."

    Named countries

    Thirteen countries are named in the report as particularly problematic with respect to US security interests: India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, Turkey, Nigeria, Egypt, Ethiopia, Mexico, Colombia, and Brazil. The countries are projected to create 47 percent of all world population growth.

    It also raises the question of whether the US should consider preferential allocation of surplus food supplies to states deemed constructive in use of population control measures.

    General oversight

    The paper takes a look at worldwide demographic population trends as projected in 1974.

    It is divided into two major sections: an analytical section and policy recommendations.

    The analytical section discusses projected world demographic trends and their influence on world food supply, minerals, and fuel. It looks at the relation between economic development in the least developed nations and investigates the implications of world population pressures on US national security.

    The policy recommendations is divided into two sections. A US population strategy and action to create conditions for fertility decline. A major concern reiterated in the paper concerns the effect of population on starvation and famine.

    "Growing populations will have a serious impact on the need for food especially in the poorest, fastest growing LDCs.[least developed countries] While under normal weather conditions and assuming food production growth in line with recent trends, total world agricultural production could expand faster than population, there will nevertheless be serious problems in food distribution and financing, making shortages, even at today's poor nutrition levels, probable in many of the larger more populous LDC regions. Even today 10 to 20 million people die each year due, directly or indirectly, to malnutrition. Even more serious is the consequence of major crop failures which are likely to occur from time to time.

    "The most serious consequence for the short and middle term is the possibility of massive famines in certain parts of the world, especially the poorest regions. World needs for food rise by 2.5 percent or more per year (making a modest allowance for improved diets and nutrition) at a time when readily available fertilizer and well-watered land is already largely being utilized. Therefore, additions to food production must come mainly from higher yields.

    "Countries with large population growth cannot afford constantly growing imports, but for them to raise food output steadily by 2 to 4 percent over the next generation or two is a formidable challenge."

    Key insights

    "The U.S. economy will require large and increasing amounts of minerals from abroad, especially from less developed countries [see National Commission on Materials Policy, Towards a National Materials Policy: Basic Data and Issues, April 1972]. That fact gives the U.S. enhanced interest in the political, economic, and social stability of the supplying countries. Wherever a lessening of population pressures through reduced birth rates can increase the prospects for such stability, population policy becomes relevant to resource supplies and to the economic interests of the United States.... The location of known reserves of higher grade ores of most minerals favors increasing dependence of all industrialized regions on imports from less developed countries. The real problems of mineral supplies lie, not in basic physical sufficiency, but in the politico-economic issues of access, terms for exploration and exploitation, and division of the benefits among producers, consumers, and host country governments" [Chapter III, "Minerals and Fuel"].
    "Whether through government action, labor conflicts, sabotage, or civil disturbance, the smooth flow of needed materials will be jeopardized. Although population pressure is obviously not the only factor involved, these types of frustrations are much less likely under conditions of slow or zero population growth" [Chapter III, "Minerals and Fuel"].
    "Populations with a high proportion of growth. The young people, who are in much higher proportions in many LDCs, are likely to be more volatile, unstable, prone to extremes, alienation and violence than an older population. These young people can more readily be persuaded to attack the legal institutions of the government or real property of the 'establishment,' 'imperialists,' multinational corporations, or other -- often foreign -- influences blamed for their troubles" [Chapter V, "Implications of Population Pressures for National Security"].
    "We must take care that our activities should not give the appearance to the LDCs of an industrialized country policy directed against the LDCs. Caution must be taken that in any approaches in this field we support in the LDCs are ones we can support within this country. "Third World" leaders should be in the forefront and obtain the credit for successful programs. In this context it is important to demonstrate to LDC leaders that such family planning programs have worked and can work within a reasonable period of time." [Chapter I, "World Demographic Trends"]
    "In these sensitive relations, however, it is important in style as well as substance to avoid the appearance of coercion."
    Abortion as a geopolitical strategy is mentioned several dozen times in the report with suggestive implications: "No country has reduced its population growth without resorting to abortion.... under developing country conditions foresight methods not only are frequently unavailable but often fail because of ignorance, lack of preparation, misuse and non-use. Because of these latter conditions, increasing numbers of women in the developing world have been resorting to abortion....

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Really? So we should just let criminals do whatever they want? There has to be some kind of deterrent.
    I think criminals should be rehabilitated as far as possible, otherwise measures should be taken to minimise harm, which may involve locking them up. I certainly don't think people should be killed or tortured. I'm not convinced that such measures would be a deterrent. In any case, I'm not convinced that it is wise to punish people who cannot help their nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I use my conscience to evaluate things but I accept that it might be wrong in certain cases. In the end your conscience is just feelings, and feelings can be wrong - if they were right all the time then people wouldn't do things like murder, rape, etc.
    Words like "murder" and "rape" are defined as illegal - if you consider it lawful to kill someone in your ideology, it could well be someone else's murder. In that sense, there is no difference between Islam and LaVeyan Satanism.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    This is why we use the shari'ah to judge things, because Allah knows better than we do.
    But we cannot independently know that Allah spoke to Jibreel and Jibreel spoke to Muhammad, and all without error. The shari'ah might all be fabrication, or the work of someone other than Allah. And our senses are not infallible. And all this takes for granted that we should follow what we THINK Allah wants over what know we want. Personally, I think killing, torture, lying, and laughing at torture are "wrong" - I might do things I consider "wrong" from time-to-time, but the important distinction for me is that I could not follow a being that claims to be all-powerful who engages or condones such practices.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    And by the way, we don't believe that Allah told Abraham to kill his child. It was a metaphorical dream that he interpreted but Allah stopped him before he did it because it was a misinterpretation. That is why he said that he had fulfilled the dream before actually carrying it out.
    I've heard that version of the myth from at least one other Muslim. I don't think that's a satisfactory answer. In the story, Abraham was willing to kill a child because he believed that Allah told him to. How does that make him more rational than a million schizophrenics? How can a fallible person claim to be moral if they subvert all their judgement to a third party that they cannot deem to be objective? Is there an action that he would have unwilling to do if he believed Allah told him to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outlier View Post

    The distinction is probably arbitrary. I believe most muslims are smugly satisfied that all non believers will burn anyway. Christians are like this too.
    In the Qur'an, it says that on the Day of Resurrection, Muslims will laugh at the disbelievers as they are sent to be tortured in Hell, and then will continue to mock them while they are in Heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    In the Qur'an, it says that on the Day of Resurrection, Muslims will laugh at the disbelievers as they are sent to be tortured in Hell, and then will continue to mock them while they are in Heaven.
    Unsurprising really.
    "The society that separates it's scholars from it's warriors will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting by fools." ―Thucydides



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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    In the Qur'an, it says that on the Day of Resurrection, Muslims will laugh at the disbelievers as they are sent to be tortured in Hell, and then will continue to mock them while they are in Heaven.
    Again, selectively misquoting. @Outlier

    Here is the full passage:

    "Indeed, those who committed crimes used to laugh at those who believed. And when they passed by them, they would exchange derisive glances. And when they returned to their people, they would return jesting. And when they saw them, they would say, 'Indeed, those are truly lost.' But they had not been sent as guardians over them. So today those who believed are laughing at the disbelievers, On adorned couches, observing. Have the disbelievers [not] been rewarded [this Day] for what they used to do?"

    You only get what you give.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Again, selectively misquoting. @Outlier

    Here is the full passage:

    "Indeed, those who committed crimes used to laugh at those who believed. And when they passed by them, they would exchange derisive glances. And when they returned to their people, they would return jesting. And when they saw them, they would say, 'Indeed, those are truly lost.' But they had not been sent as guardians over them. So today those who believed are laughing at the disbelievers, On adorned couches, observing. Have the disbelievers [not] been rewarded [this Day] for what they used to do?"

    You only get what you give.
    In my view, torture is wrong in any circumstance, and an "eye for an eye" is a poor way of running society.

    "And the dwellers of Paradise will call out to the dwellers of the Fire (saying): "We have indeed found true what our Lord had promised us; have you also found true, what your Lord promised (warnings, etc.)?" They shall say: "Yes." Then a crier will proclaim between them: "The Curse of Allah is on the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.),"" - Qur'an 7:44

    I could not laugh at a person being tortured. I don't see how torturing someone for disbelief is giving them what they gave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Again, selectively misquoting. @Outlier

    Here is the full passage:

    "Indeed, those who committed crimes used to laugh at those who believed. And when they passed by them, they would exchange derisive glances. And when they returned to their people, they would return jesting. And when they saw them, they would say, 'Indeed, those are truly lost.' But they had not been sent as guardians over them. So today those who believed are laughing at the disbelievers, On adorned couches, observing. Have the disbelievers [not] been rewarded [this Day] for what they used to do?"

    You only get what you give.
    The Qur'an says it condones torture worse than anyone can imagine - how can that be proportionate?

    "But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning." Qur'an 22:19-22

    In your view, is Anne Frank going to be put in the fire of Jahannam? How long for?

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    @thehotelambush

    The Qur'an says its signs are clear. I disagree.

    An omniscient being should know that to a fallible being, nothing is clear. Punishing someone for their honestly held beliefs and disbeliefs is foolish.

    Its deity cares more about belief and and disbelief than it cares about good and bad works - good works will not prevent you from being tortured in its dogma.

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    What is the rationale beyond taking someone else's word for how to behave (for example "Muhammad", if he existed), while believing in the existence of a being that it is said that its signs are clear?

    I cannot accept on faith that the Muslims say that Muhammad said that Jibreel said that Allah said something. I cannot even take my own senses for granted.

    It is one thing to establish a human existed to a certain level of confidence, but impossible to prove any of the qualities ascribed to Allah. It simply is not rational for a being to belief in the existence of an omnipotent or an omniscient being. A being could not know it is omnipotent or omniscient.

    Aside from that, "morality" is inherently subjective - it is not something that can be proved or disproved.

    It does not matter to me whether Allah is "good" or "bad" in its own assessment. Once such a being has been "proved", the only thing that matters is if I accept its terms. There is no independent authority of whether or not my actions are acceptable. I very much intend to follow my own informed judgement, which is the best I can do. Another individual being omnipotent or omniscient is rather irrelevant to that.

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    abortion = killing of people. of own children
    someone needs a religion miracles to do not like this idea?

    if "abortion" is acceptable, then to "abort" those who did this is ok too?
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Pro-lifers are r-strategic peasants, whose favor of preserving all lives over the promotion of high-quality ones is keeping our species economically and genetically weak, and holding back our progress to the stars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    It has been promoted as a "right" but it's rather a point in the agenda to control the poor and third world population as its a threat for the rich. Millions have been invested to promote an ideology and operate an industry to reduce the births of the unimportant and undesirable.
    The poor and third world population does not really use contraceptives for the most part, much less abort their own kids. Poor and stupid ppl statistically have more kids as they don't tend to think far or hard about their future and so don't make weird choices like becoming childless, like "high IQ" educated and well off ppl who do all these things.

    Sex simply feels good and results in kids. High IQ seems to be a evolutionary dead end which works against itself. IF it leads to the lack of procreation, it means it cannot exist in the future versions of the organism and will be selected against.

    At any rate imo post enlightenment philosophies about life as well as post-marxist and bourgeois capitalist conceptions of an only materialist existence seem to be self -destructive to say the least..

    Just as an example, its not uncommon these days to be a smart, well educated 35+ year old woman who is childless, in a career they chose themselves, making good money.. while at the same time having creeping dread that one's life has gone off the rails for some reason and something is deeply wrong.

    The reality of the situation is that she is a brainwashed cog in the capitalist machine of perpetual growth and the product of an education system which was designed to make her a worker-drone and never catered to her biological life-cycle as a human being.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 12-18-2020 at 05:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    The poor and third world population does not really use contraceptives for the most part, much less abort their own kids. Poor and stupid ppl statistically have more kids as they don't tend to think far or hard about their future and so don't make weird choices like becoming childless, like "high IQ" educated and well off ppl who do all these things.

    Sex simply feels good and results in kids. High IQ seems to be a evolutionary dead end which works against itself. IF it leads to the lack of procreation, it means it cannot exist in the future versions of the organism and will be selected against.

    At any rate imo post enlightenment philosophies about life as well as post-marxist and bourgeois capitalist conceptions of an only materialist existence seem to be self -destructive to say the least..

    Just as an example, its not uncommon these days to be a smart, well educated 35+ year old woman who is childless, in a career they chose themselves, making good money.. while at the same time having creeping dread that one's life has gone off the rails for some reason and something is deeply wrong.

    The reality of the situation is that she is a brainwashed cog in the capitalist machine of perpetual growth and the product of an education system which was designed to make her a worker-drone and never catered to her biological life-cycle as a human being.
    I'm pretty sure the bolded text above applies to men, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I'm pretty sure the bolded text above applies to men, too.
    It does.
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    Ultimately, if you think that having children is going to be a catalyst for meaning in itself, you're in for a bitter surprise. The act is as bad as clinging to a child as you would to a piece of meat in the hopes that it will save your doomed marriage. There are two things that are marketed in a very false and harmful way nowadays: the concepts of authenticity and purpose.

    The concept of purpose has been weaponized and distorted. At the end of the day, it is not something that you can look to as being your salvation, and it will definitely not do you a sliver of good if you polish it with a little bit of 'meaning' to give it a wee shiny luster. If you truly want meaning to be the essence and not just a mere decoration to something you think of as a "calling" or "purpose", then you need to find that essence by feeling the weight of your own cross, and through your own path and journey.

    I feel that promoting family values in a hollow manner is as mindless as echoing that you need to focus on a career before all else. In both cases, you would simply parrot the mere REFLECTIONS of ideologies that mean nothing to the individual at large-- will starting a family really get Stacey back on track when she hasn't known, and hasn't tapped, into the potential that's been burrowed by years upon years of emotional and psychological trauma enforced through fear porn and emotional death?

    Spoiler: no it won't. Just as focusing on career is not going to suddenly make Michael the Software Designer from enjoying what lies beyond the gilded cage of his own design.

    Remember, kids, that having no family at all is better than having an utterly broken family. But who am I to lecture people on this? Some might genuinely get a kick out of seeing their own offspring grow distant while harboring the very seeds of remorse towards their parents that they, themselves, have planted there when they thought that it will be a good idea to raise someone in an environment of pure and utter chaos.

    And there you go: meaning. Your legacy is your meaning. And the very legacy you've left on your death bed is a diseased lump of people trying to survive in an empty world while regurgitating, and passing on, the sins of their fathers and mothers.

    I'm all for finding joy in the peaceful harbour and the warm hearth that constitutes a family. But I feel like people really are a bit stupid and naive sometimes, without realizing that their purpose is not true purpose if it acts as a surrogate for it. There are a lot of things to consider here.
    "хотите —
    буду безукоризненно нежный,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suspiria View Post
    Ultimately, if you think that having children is going to be a catalyst for meaning in itself, you're in for a bitter surprise. The act is as bad as clinging to a child as you would to a piece of meat in the hopes that it will save your doomed marriage. There are two things that are marketed in a very false and harmful way nowadays: the concepts of authenticity and purpose.

    The concept of purpose has been weaponized and distorted. At the end of the day, it is not something that you can look to as being your salvation, and it will definitely not do you a sliver of good if you polish it with a little bit of 'meaning' to give it a wee shiny luster. If you truly want meaning to be the essence and not just a mere decoration to something you think of as a "calling" or "purpose", then you need to find that essence by feeling the weight of your own cross, and through your own path and journey.

    I feel that promoting family values in a hollow manner is as mindless as echoing that you need to focus on a career before all else. In both cases, you would simply parrot the mere REFLECTIONS of ideologies that mean nothing to the individual at large-- will starting a family really get Stacey back on track when she hasn't known, and hasn't tapped, into the potential that's been burrowed by years upon years of emotional and psychological trauma enforced through fear porn and emotional death?

    Spoiler: no it won't. Just as focusing on career is not going to suddenly make Michael the Software Designer from enjoying what lies beyond the gilded cage of his own design.

    Remember, kids, that having no family at all is better than having an utterly broken family. But who am I to lecture people on this? Some might genuinely get a kick out of seeing their own offspring grow distant while harboring the very seeds of remorse towards their parents that they, themselves, have planted there when they thought that it will be a good idea to raise someone in an environment of pure and utter chaos.

    And there you go: meaning. Your legacy is your meaning. And the very legacy you've left on your death bed is a diseased lump of people trying to survive in an empty world while regurgitating, and passing on, the sins of their fathers and mothers.

    I'm all for finding joy in the peaceful harbour and the warm hearth that constitutes a family. But I feel like people really are a bit stupid and naive sometimes, without realizing that their purpose is not true purpose if it acts as a surrogate for it. There are a lot of things to consider here.
    How can one person be this based?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suspiria View Post
    I'm all for finding joy in the peaceful harbour and the warm hearth that constitutes a family. But I feel like people really are a bit stupid and naive sometimes, without realizing that their purpose is not true purpose if it acts as a surrogate for it. There are a lot of things to consider here.
    While I agree that we shouldn't mistake family for meaning and purpose, I do think that most people don't even seem capable of being honest with themselves and so purpose and meaning eludes their grasp, IF they even think about such things at all tbh (I know many who don't). So it seems to me that failing to fulfill something as basic as procreation equates to braking the chain of life that existed between the beginning of nonhuman life on the planet and me, now in this moment.. it is a kind of utter failure. The maintenance of the biological stock from which higher civilization rises is by logic something fundamental.

    .. further I don't think happiness is that important, nor the warm embrace of family. Often the bittersweet life full of struggle is worth more. We struggle and fight .. because we were born into this world, moving forward in spite of all the misfortune, discomfort, hardship.. emotional, physical or otherwise.

    “To those human beings who are of any concern to me I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities—I wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: I have no pity for them, because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not—that one endures." ― Friedrich Nietzsche, The Will to Power

    I choose life over death, its that simple. Life is bittersweet.. terrible, cruel and beautiful. To deny the unborn this experience is a crime.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 12-19-2020 at 11:09 PM.
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  37. #37
    I only pledge my allegiance to the hotness. Kiana's Avatar
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    If anything, there’s more arguments against abortion that’s secular- physical dangers (infections, etc.), mental problems arising from it (depression, guilt, etc.), emotional problems, negative effects on how the people involved view relationships, etc.

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    they got condoms at walmart for $3
    Last edited by peteronfireee; 12-30-2020 at 03:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    they got condoms at walmart for $3
    That's the price of another beer in a bar.

    Which strategy makes the most sense, if

    A.) You're never going to see her again.

    or

    B.) Her daddy owns a shotgun?


    There is also Case

    C.) You love her and want to have children with her,

    but that's, like, 0.00001% in our survey.

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